Can You Be a Christian and be Pro-Abortion?
Posted by truthtalklive on March 19, 2008
Putting all the “political” spin aside, what does the Bible say about abortion?
Links to Life:
National Right to Life Committee www.nrlc.org
A comprehensive list of pro-life orgaizations and links www.prolifeaction.org/links/
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Chris C. said
The answer is yes.
Jesus never said that being a Christian meant you had to legislate your moral beliefs into law. Abortion is legal. As John Kerry said in the presdiential race three years ago, you can have personal moral feelings but also respect other people’s individual rights.
Brad said
The answer is no.
Whether or not your moral beliefs are legislated into law, the Bible does say that “thou shalt not murder.”
Chris C. said
Thanks, also, for correcting your lingo. It is pro-choice. I don’t know anyone who actually likes the idea of abortion. Of the women I know who have had them, the experience has not been a happy one for them. However, the choice to abort is often the most economical, sensible, and utilitarian option.
Chris C. said
I feel certain the argument has been tried before, but Brad, where would you say ‘life’ starts? If you say it starts at conception, then there are some serious problems. Roughly 20 percent of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion or miscarriage within 20 weeks of gestation. This means either God is the most prolific murderer of all time, or ‘life’ must start at some time between 20 weeks and birth.
Rhonda B. said
I do not believe that God can be the LORD of your life (thus, you be a Christian), and believe that abortion is ok. Is it ok to kill any random person on the street? NO. Is it ok to kill my daughter now? NO. I was one of those women in a situation where it seemed to be the “most economical, sensible, and utilitarian option” (to quote Chris C.) I was taken advantage of by a friend’s roommate, and ended up pregnant. I was single, working a low paying plant job, and very scared. The pregnancy compromised my health, I was in the hospital in the first 8 weeks of the pregnancy, but I chose LIFE. I lost my job because I was pregnant- yes, fired for that very reason- and I still chose LIFE. My daughter Mercy is now 6 years old and I’m so thankful I made the choice I did.
June of 2006- After marriage for a year and a half, I found that I was pregnant with my second daughter. I have been diagnosed with a brain tumor that grows when I pregnant because it feeds off female hormones. Did I abort? NO. I went thru 6 weeks of radiation instead after Ivy was born. But my daughter has been such a blessing to me!!
AND NOW I’M PREGNANT WITH NUMBER 3 AND I’M STILL CHOOSING LIFE!!
Chris C. said
Rhonda,
That is a powerful story and I am sincerely happy for the way things have turned out for you. My only point is that some women may not be as strong as you, or may not have the same convictions. To deny them the choice of how to deal with their own body seems wrong to me. In my days as a Christian I, personally, was not fond of the idea of abortion. But I felt that it would be wrong for me to demand others conform to my moral standards.
Rhonda B. said
Chris-
I understand that you would like to stand up for the right of the woman, but who stands up for the right of the baby? It’s not really a choice of how you’re dealing with your own body in my opinion, it’s more about what I’m doing about the life growing inside of me. I just can’t comprehend “disposing” of a beautiful new life… who knows what they’ll grow up to be? What right do I have to decide whether they live or not? CS Lewis says in his book “Mere Christianity” that all humanity knows what is morally right and wrong, that we are born with a Law of Human Nature or Moral Law, thus we make excuses when we are choosing to do what we know feels wrong based on what we truly feel deep inside. Most women who’ve had abortions face serious repercussions later in life because they have to deal with that “wrong” decision they made.
NOW the question is this, how should we as Christians act if we’ve known about a woman having an abortion? We should act with LOVE and with MERCY, not judging, but praying for them, for healing and peace in GOD.
Darlene said
You asked a question: How can a Christian be pro-abortion?
Answer: Easy~they are not a Christian!!!
Angela said
As a christian mother I am well aware of the fact that my choice for my body ends with my choice to have or not have sex. After that choice is made the consequences are a result of my choice. I also know as a christian that I would give my life, without hesitation for my child just as Jesus gave his life for me (His child).
Brad said
Chris,
You show you have a truly warped view of the world, man. Not just in this topic, but all topics you weigh in on. Using your logic, if it’s not illegal, then it’s OK for us to do, right? Murder’s illegal, so it’s not OK to do. Abortion is legal, so it is OK.
Is it legal for me to vote, according to whatever dictates I choose? Is it legal for you to vote, based upon whatever dictates you choose? I don’t think there’s any question that the answer is “yes.” That being the case, then I am free to vote (i.e. “legislate”) my morals whenever I see fit, just as you are free to NOT do so, if you so choose. So hopefully that should end the illogical “it’s not right to vote that way” argument.
Yes, I believe life starts at conception. The fact that some pregnancies end in miscarriage (as my wife and I have had one end) doesn’t change that belief. I don’t know if you’re married, or if you have kids, but if you have ever had a wife who’s pregnant, and had a miscarriage (at whatever gestational week), then you ought to know what I’m talking about.
A woman is free to do what she wants with what is solely her own body. Problem is, the baby growing inside her, although definitely inside her, is not ONLY her. It is still a life. It has a SEPARATE heart, a SEPARATE heartbeat, a SEPARATE brain, SEPARATE arms and legs, SEPARATE lungs, SEPARATE DNA, etc… This doesn’t just magically happen at childbirth – it is in the works from the beginning.
Abortion, in most cases, is usually a woman’s (or a woman and a man’s, in many cases) way of getting rid of something she/they didn’t want to begin with. What OUGHT to happen instead, is being responsible BEFORE the fact, rather than irresponsible AFTER the fact.
It is heinous, shameful, sinful and most certainly not Christian.
Chris C. said
“You show you have a truly warped view of the world, man. Not just in this topic, but all topics you weigh in on.”
Brad,
I’d say the same of you but broad-brushed statements like that don’t really add to the debate.
I agree there ought to be more emphasis on responsiblity before sexual intercourse. Thats why sexual education (not abstinance education) is important. Teens, who are going to have sex no matter what, need to be informed of the importance of safe sex.
I’m not a woman and, as such, can probably never fully comprehend this topic. However, it seems to me that a fetus is still a part of the woman’s body. It can’t live outside of the womb without support. Not that this is the only quilification for ‘life’, but it is certainly a distinguising factor.
So if life starts at conception, what is the status of all those millions of lost souls of miscarriages and aborted babies? (caveat: I don’t believe in ‘souls’, but I’m sure you do). And if God knows everyone before he makes them (“knits them together in the mother’s womb” Pslams says, I think), why would he chose to only bring 3/4s or so of all his created zygotes into the world? As he is all-powerful, could he not be held culpable for their death?
Brad said
As I said, Chris, based on your statements, you have a very warped view of the world, and of God, in general. You may think that to be a broad statement, but I believe it to be true, based on what you say.
I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced a miscarriage with your wife, or had a pregnant wife, or have kids, as I mentioned, but if not, I can see how your outlook may be different. Either way, I stick to what I said.
It’s wrong, and it’s irresponsible.
BT said
As the election heats up we’ll be getting more and more of this – “are democrats the party of death?” “can a christian be half-muslim?” “does the bible condone female rule?” “Do evolutionists hate America?” Religious “reasons” to vote corporate – to vote republican. It’s so obvious.
F. L. A. said
BRAD, WHERE’S THAT FORGIVING GRACE THAT YOU “TRUE” CHRISTIANS ARE ALLEGED TO HAVE SUCH AN OVERFLOWING ABUNDANCE OF?
PERHAPS YOU CAN PRAY FOR CHRIS C. AS YOU DO FOR US?
ACCUSING OTHERS OF HAVING WARPED VIEWS OF THE WORLD SOUNDS ODD COMING FROM A YOUNG-EARTHER.
Ben Maulis said
A Christian must be pro-God. We are ambassadors of Christ and the gospel, not of our own agenda. We speak not ourselves, but Christ. We deliver not our own judgments, but the Word of God to whom all judgment has been delivered.
Essentially what I am saying is that a Christian is not entitled to their own opinion or judgment on the matter. We give up that right when we call him Lord.
A government that is pro-Abortion (like ancient Egypt or modern China), is anti-Christ. A government that does not legislate or adjudicate the matter is “neutral.” It is not necessarily the government’s responsibility to legislate and adjudicate every moral issue. Jesus said every man shall give an account of *himself*. We will answer to God. Nevertheless, if men fail to obey the Lord, I think I understand that he has been willing in the past to assign responsibility to the government (Babylonian captivity).
justaman said
Chris
An infant “outside” of the womb can not live with out his/her mother (or someone feeding and caring for them) either. So… based on your philosophy, for utilitarian purposes, for economic reasons, or convenience, just dump it right? Wait, uh well no, I guess I can’t, because it’s against the law, but hey if the laws were changed then I could do so. So why don’t we work towards changing these laws, because… you know it’s really not right to legislate morality, so just like back in the 70’s I can fight for the rights to kill my infant for convenience… Especially if it is handicapped. If we are going to REALLY evolve to the next level then we should kill the weak and allow the strong to flourish.
Actually, Chris if you truly hold an atheistic (evolved) worldview, then this utilitarian view makes perfect sense. A true, atheistic worldview has no basis for right or wrong other than an evolved cultural opinion that will continue to change. If there is no God and evolution is how we got where we are, then the strong and the smart will be the ones who will survive and it is completely natural that we, as an evolved society, should work towards creating a smarter/stronger species. Through genetic engineering, we should create a super race that will survive and take us to the next level. Don’t you think Chris? Certainly you can not see what would be wrong with that? If you do see this as wrong then I would be interested to know why you believe it to be wrong and on what foundation do you start from?
justaman said
Chris
Also, with an atheistic worldview, I am confused as to why you would have a problem with the “culpability of the death” for miscarried or aborted zygotes? Isn’t that just an expected result of natural selection?
Chris C. said
“If we are going to REALLY evolve to the next level then we should kill the weak and allow the strong to flourish.”
The Eugenics movement was, unfortunatly, a distortion and misapplication of evolutionary theory. Fortunatly with childbirth there is a very natural cutoff point at which abortion should not be allowed … birth. Evolution is a scientific explanation for how life has evolved thus far on this planet. It is not an excuse to murder people and animals that we, as humans, do not like. That is not what ‘survival of the fittest’ means. Fitness is determined by nature and is based on the current ecological and climatic conditions. It has nothing to do with our human conceptions of ‘bigger, stronger, smarter.’
The evolution of morality is something that is a difficult topic for me. Our sense of morals has evolved through collective altruism. Our morality benefits our genes in such a way as to increase their frequency in the gene pool. However, to the extent morality is non-genetic, it cannot be said to have direct evolutionary benefit. Richard Dawkin’s discussion of the idea of “memes” is especially appropriate here.
Anyway, I will be honest in saying that I cannot provide what would be a satisfactory answer to you regarding my beliefs about morality. However, I do wonder if you can tell me where your morality comes from (in your view)? Certainly not from the Bible…
Certainly not from the book that advocates:
Slavery
Ethnic Cleansing
Genocide
Racism
Sexism (Misogyny)
Infanticide
Most people’s morals today are very different from the morals advocated by the bronze age men of the Bible. There are some truly beautiful words of wisdom in the book, and some excellent advice. But very few people (with the exception of the Fred Phelps’ of the word) actually still follow the Bible’s full moral code. In fact, by and large, human morality has evolved well beyond the basis of any of the worlds great religious texts.
Chris C. said
I dont have a problem with, as you phrase it, the culpability of death. But I do find it to be a problem for anyone who makes the following argument:
~My god is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving.
~He knows every child before he even puts him/her together in the mother’s womb.
~It is a known fact that a minimum of 20% of zygotes (fertilized eggs) do not develop past the middle of the pregnancy period.
——
Therefore God knowingly creates millions of fetuses every year with full knowledge that they will never see the light of day.
Who else do we have to hold responsible except God?
Brad said
However, I do wonder if you can tell me where your morality comes from (in your view)? Certainly not from the Bible…
Certainly not from the book that advocates:
Slavery
Ethnic Cleansing
Genocide
Racism
Sexism (Misogyny)
Infanticide
Could you please provide ample Biblical support for your claims that the Bible “advocates” these that you mention? Please provide your support in its proper context, explaining how the passage(s) you cite are correct in light of the interpretation of the entire Bible. After that, I’m sure you’ll get some better answers. As it is now, you have only made an assumption, without backing it up.
I dont have a problem with, as you phrase it, the culpability of death. But I do find it to be a problem for anyone who makes the following argument:
~My god is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving.
~He knows every child before he even puts him/her together in the mother’s womb.
~It is a known fact that a minimum of 20% of zygotes (fertilized eggs) do not develop past the middle of the pregnancy period.
——
Therefore God knowingly creates millions of fetuses every year with full knowledge that they will never see the light of day.
Who else do we have to hold responsible except God?
Please provide solid evidence for your 20% figure – I’m not saying it’s wrong, I just want to see what it’s based upon.
You say that God is the only one who can be held “responsible”, and you say that as if it’s a bad thing, and shouldn’t be the case. Why is that? If one holds to the first 2 points above (and I do), I don’t see how that puts me (or anyone who believes similarly) in a quandry. Can you explain? Perhaps with some personal examples might be nice. For example, I have 4 kids, and my wife has also had one miscarriage. This miscarriage would fit exactly into one of those 20% that you say don’t survive. Why didn’t it survive? No idea – the doctors couldn’t tell us, only that it sometimes happens.
But here’s the deal – rather than blame God as the one “responsible” for the death (and it WAS a death, b/c it WAS a life), a Christian must believe that God is all-powerful, all loving, and all-knowing, and therefore this event was not out of His control. You seem to operate under the assumption that if God is those things, then He wouldn’t let miscarriages happen – what is the basis for that assumption? Since He is God, and is all-powerful, doesn’t He “make the rules”, so to speak? Further, the Bible says in Romans 8:28 that all things work together for good – do you believe that? I do. I’ve seen it happen. That miscarriage, although unfortunate, changed my life. I was not where I needed to be, as a Christian or as a husband or father – that event changed all that for me. So where the world looks at it as an unfortunate event, as “how could a loving God let that happen?”, I look it as “I wish it didn’t have to happen, but thank you God for using it to bring me closer to You and closer to my family.” Like I said, ALL things work together for good.
justaman said
“Fortunately with childbirth there is a very natural cutoff point at which abortion should not be allowed … birth”
Chris, on what basis or foundation can you make this claim under your worldview?? Why is birth a natural cutoff? Why not after 1 year or two years, once you see if the child is growing into what you want it to be?
I am not saying (or claiming that anyone is saying) that evolution is an excuse for murder. I am saying that belief in evolution and natural selection in its truest form can not have a problem with violence, death, sickness, etc. That is simply the way in which we got here. Granted, we have evolved to the point where we can make death easier by assisting people who want to kill themselves (by the way, what is wrong with suicide in a Godless atheistic worldview?) or helping mothers terminate unwanted zygotes. (I find it interesting that those who advocate abortion like to use other terms like fetus’s and zygotes to make their selves seem less brutal) Have you ever witnesses a baby getting torn limb from limb in the womb? I have to say that it is the most heinous thing I have ever seen.
“Fitness is determined by nature and is based on the current ecological and climatic conditions. It has nothing to do with our human conceptions of ‘bigger, stronger, smarter.’”
Chris, your phrase here seems to insinuate that humans are outside of nature and not part of it. I know that’s not what you mean but if humans are part of the evolutionary process then we have participated and contributed to the natural process right? We are certainly not immune to the violence and death attributed to natural selection are we?
Our sense of morals has evolved through collective altruism.”
So does this mean that morals are just something that we sense? They are not real? All the more reason to do away with them. All is relative right?
“However, I do wonder if you can tell me where your morality comes from (in your view)? Certainly not from the Bible…”
First off I have to wonder why you would even have a problem or a concern why someone believes what they do about morals when you can not for yourself even explain what you believe and why you believe what is right or wrong. I will answer anyway, because I believe it is the right thing to do, and yes, I can tell you why I believe it.
Yes, it certainly is from the Bible… But I am not reading it the way you are. Looking for reasons not to believe it… Your interpretation that the Bible (God) condones Slavery, Ethnic Cleansing, Genocide, Racism, Sexism (Misogyny), Infanticide is totally false. That is like saying that a newspaper reporter condones child abuse when he records an occurrence of such. Ludicrous. Just because there are records of heinous acts by people throughout the history of the Bible does not mean that God condones it.
But did God destroy whole nations? Yes he certainly did. Did they include women and children? Absolutely. I understand that you have a problem with that. Go with me on this for a second. If God is who He says He is, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Perfect, Holy, All Good, can not even look upon evil without consuming it in flames, and I assume you that are not (all of those things) as none of us are, then from what vantage point can you judge whether or not God is good and does not have perfectly good reasons for what He does? Upon what standards do you make your claims? Your own personal beliefs? That’s a moving target Chris!!
“Therefore God knowingly creates millions of fetuses every year with full knowledge that they will never see the light of day.”
Why is this a problem for you Chris? On what basis would you say that this is wrong? And from what vantage point can you see that this is unjust? Chris you said that you do not believe there is a soul, which I assume you mean an eternal soul that the Bible teaches that we have. From a Biblical worldview every life is an eternal soul, even the ones that were terminated by God. If presence with God is bliss (for a child of God) then why would it be a bad thing for a child to die on this earth only to be in the blissful presence of God?
justaman said
Chris, you also said, “The Eugenics movement was, unfortunatly, a distortion and misapplication of evolutionary theory.” On what basis do you make this claim? Why is Eugenics a problem for you? I think it fits perfectly in the evolutionary, atheistic worldview. Can you explain why it would be wrong?
justaman said
I just received this e-mail from one of our missionaries in England. Pretty amazing I think…
Most of you know, that Janice writes most of our emails. But
something so amazing happened to me this week, that I just had to sit down and share it with you.
1500 high school students at my school, mostly from Hindu, Sikh and Muslim families.
Easter is coming. There is always an Easter assembly – seven minutes long. An open door to the gospel? Definitely. Will they let me do it? Maybe. I am a science teacher here, but they know I am an “Evangelical”. Risky call for the administrators. I might say something offensive.
At Christmas, I was heartbroken to see the Christmas assembly be
something that was factual, watered down and lacking in any passion.
I know in America, you aren’t allowed to really talk about God in
schools, but in England, you can express your faith, but…….they aren’t used to real believers doing presentations. Will they let me try? Well, all I could do was ask. So, I found the person in charge, and asked. He said that the assemblies are usual done by the senior staff, but he would inquire for me.
We prayed, we recruited prayer, we knocked on God’s door a lot.
The answer: Yes, you can do it, but don’t make it too Christian. The message has to apply to everybody, not something just for Christians.
What does that mean? What kind of answer is this God? Is this a yea or a nay?
We pray. Ideas come. One thing kids hardly ever experience here is meeting a Christian who is passionate for their faith. I decide that that is one thing I can do: Give them a big dose of enthusiasm for God. I write. We pray. I develop a few ideas and submit them to the powers that be. We pray. The reply….yes, it looks good.
The day is here. I am so nervous that I barely slept. My talk was going to be pure me…wildly enthusiastic, vulnerable, joyous. Seven pulsating minutes. I knew that they had never seen anything like this. Would they freak out? Would they make fun of me? I have to see these people everyday. All my fellow science teachers are basically atheist. I am so sad for them. I have to teach these kids.
I love them. I want them to know the joy of knowing Jesus. Help me, Jesus. I know we are supposed to be willing to be a fool for Jesus, to be persecuted for our beliefs, but I am so scared. Pray some more.
Why am I so faithless? Come on, be mature, you big baby.
I have recruited five students to help with part of it. Three
Muslims, two Sikhs, and one Hindu. There were no Christians in my
class to choose from. Do they know what they have agreed to? We get to do the assembly twice. 750 kids each time. I have a video playing of one of my favourite contemporary Christian songs. It psyches me up. God sanctify this, I scream inwardly. The kids are ready.
They hand me the microphone.
I start. They are listening. They laugh where they are supposed to. I talk about God healing people with broken lives, broken
relationships. I look out and see kids who I know are abused at home. I see kids who don’t feel loved. I see angry kids, lost kids. I remember how angry and lost I felt at times in my life. I remember how God healed me and continues to heal me. I can’t believe I am actually up here, doing this. My heart is racing, but God keeps me going. It is over. Seven minutes. I say Happy Easter. Did they like it? Was it okay? There is a moment of silence, then….
The kids and staff break into spontaneous cheering and applause.
They never clap for assemblies. Oh, my God, they loved it. There are smiles everywhere. And they aren’t making fun of me. I think about what I just said. I went beyond what I had planned, I was more vulnerable, more passionate, more joyous. I think they saw Jesus. I think God really used me to show them a glimpse of what life with Jesus can be. My heart is bursting. Students are thanking me. A Sikh teacher comes up with tears in his eyes, saying how wonderful it was. And I get to do it again in five minutes. Hosanna, Hosanna in the Highest, I cry.
The second one starts. Teachers are going out and pulling in the
administrators, receptionist, and cleaners, saying you have to see
this. Unbelievable. Is it really that rare to here someone talk
about God with joy? Then ten minutes later, I am in front of a class teaching chemistry, but I don’t want to be there, I want to call Janice and rejoice. I want to run and jump for joy with my Christian family who backed me with prayer. But I have to keep it in for another four hours.
Kids and teachers constantly thank me all day for the assembly, and the next day and the next day. People are saying, they had never seen an assembly that good. The best ever. I am a hero to the kids. I hear them say proudly to others, “He is my teacher”. I tell my friends what happened, and they all ask “what did you say, what did you do”. I can’t answer. I don’t think it was about the words, it was about God using the moment, using an empty cracked pot like me.
Wow, wicked, wonderful.
justaman said
Something else Chris
If you have a problem with innocent people suffering at the hands of God or others, consider the Christian view of God. Who “emptied Himself” made Himself completely vulnerable by coming in the flesh himself, lived a perfect life with no sin at all, yet it was the will of the Father (God) for Him to suffer and die the death of a criminal at the hands of “Religious people” in order that He may experience ultimate suffering on our behalf, so that He can sympathize with our weakness, and also to pay the penalty for our sins. Tell me that you can look at the cross where Christ suffers torment and curse God because He allows suffering of innocent people when He Himself did the same for us.
Chris C. said
Re: Post 24
Sorry I don’t have the time to respond to all of this right now, but I plan on getting to it shortly. Anyways…
Obviously I don’t believe that Jesus rose from the dead. I’m not totally convinced he lived at all. But that aside, assuming a man came to earth, lived for 33 years, and then died a fairly greusome death, I don’t see how this in any way excuses the rest of the worlds suffering. I mean, I’m sure being crucified is horrible, but it’s not eternal (like the pain promised for unbelievers). Whether or not God suffered as a man named Jesus is beside the point. He is supposedly all-powerful and all-loving. This means, as Epicurious famously pointed out, God must allow suffering and this is a big problem for an all-loving deity.
To my knowledge the problem of theodicy is not one yet solved. To me it’s all a bit like arguing over what color the “emperors clothes’ are…but thats my response to post 24.
As to Eugenics:
Natural selection and evolution in general is not a process under conscious control. If some species, whether it be humans or moles, is not fit to survive, that species will generally be weeded out by natural selection. That does not mean that we, as humans, should seek to create our own version of natural selection. Again, the human ideas of ‘bigger, stronger, better’ are not necessarily the same standards nature might have.
The reason we see murder as ‘wrong’ is because that is part of a ubiquitous set of morals that evolved, probably recently in our human lineage. Altruism is an evolutionarily stable strategy. The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins is one of the most enlightening resources on the beginnings of altruism and ‘morality’ that I know of. I don’t know how productive this debate will be as most of you all don’t even accept the basic science of evolution.
Chris C. said
“Chris, on what basis or foundation can you make this claim under your worldview?? Why is birth a natural cutoff? Why not after 1 year or two years, once you see if the child is growing into what you want it to be?”
Because until birth the fetus is still a part of the mother’s body.
Chris C. said
Brad:
Slavery: Leviticus 25:44-46 and many other passages concerning the treatment of slaves and their status as propety.
Ethnic Cleansing: The entire book of Joshua where God orders the destruction of every Canaanite.
Genocide: Deuteronomy 2: 31-35
Racism: Racist attitudes are implict in the genocide and ethnic cleansing as God obviously views his people as superior to other races.
Sexism (Misogyny): 1 Corinthians 13:34; Genesis 3:16; Deuteronmy 22:20-21 … Also many of the Levitical laws have different punishments for men as opposed to women (more severe for women).
Infanticide: Exodus 11 – The Angel of Death. God willingly murders thousands of children in Egypt because Pharoah will not submit his rule to the requests of a man, Moses. Oddly enough, God actually hardened Pharoah’s heart in the first place. (Fortunatly, there doesn’t exist any historical evidence that these plagues, including the ‘Angel of Death’ ever took place. Perhaps new versions of the Bible should be printed with the disclaimer: “Warning, no real people were harmed in the making of this story!”)
There are plenty of other instances of very questionable actions taken by God or condoned by God in the OT. Also, many of these precepts are echoed in the NT. Especially, misogyny and slavery are still a-okay. My point is that our modern moral code (which is fairly similar across all people-groups) is not really in accordance with the Bible. Really, anyone who reads Leviticus, takes it seriously, and isn’t disgusted must engage in serious cognitive dissonance.
Regarding miscarriage: (this is from womens-health.co.uk)
The risk of miscarriage decreases as pregnancy progresses. It is possible that as many as 50% of pregnancies miscarry before implantation in the womb occurs. Early after implantation, pregnancy loss rate is about 30% (i.e. this is still before a pregnancy is clinically recognised). After a pregnancy may be clinically recognised (between days 35-50), about 25% will end in miscarriage. The risk of miscarriage decreases dramatically after the 8th week as the weeks go by.
Justaman: “Why is this a problem for you Chris? On what basis would you say that this is wrong? And from what vantage point can you see that this is unjust? ”
I just think it’s an awful waste of time. Why would God go to the trouble of knitting a little baby together in the womb knowing it had to die? He ‘knows the plans he has for’ the baby, yet he lets it die. Just seems wasteful.
justaman said
Chris
My post #24 was an answer to your issues taken in post 19. If you are going to take issue with an an argument like that in 19, you need to honestly consider the worldview being presented before you can realistically take issue with it. I will repeat myself, “I have to wonder why you would even have a problem or a concern why someone believes what they do about morals when you can not for yourself even explain what you believe and why you believe what is right or wrong.”
And to your post #26, why does that schematic make any difference. So the baby is not physically connected anymore. Why does that make any difference? That is just a detail. The baby is just as reliant on the mother for nourishment, care, and protection.
Chris C. said
I’ll lay this out once as briefly as I can:
I believe basic morality (altruism) is directly attributable to genetic evolution. Certain altruistic actions increase the liklihood of one’s genes surviving to the next generation. Once consciouness evolved, we began to alse speak of ‘cultural evolution’ the unit being the meme. Memes are like genes except they are units of cultural inheritance. The ideas that function best in society tend to get passed on from generation to generation. From the combination of our genes (inherited from parents) and our memes (written on our psyche by society, peers, family, etc.) we form a sense of morality. The genetic basis provides that all morality in the human species will be roughly the same (it is) but that it may very bit by bit in certain cultures, and change over time(it does).
justaman said
To your post #27 I ask again… If God is who He says He is, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Perfect, Holy, All Good, can not even look upon evil without consuming it in flames, and I assume you that are not (any of those things, omniscient, etc.) as none of us are, then from what vantage point can you judge whether or not God is good and does not have perfectly good reasons for what He does? Upon what standards do you make your claims?
Chris C. said
Justaman:
I want to pose a bit of a philosophical question: What absolute basis do we have for government? There is no seminal work on what is ‘good government’ and what is ‘bad government’. Really, there’s no reason to think we should ever need government at all. No deity said, “Democracy is the only way! All others are worthless and nonfunctional.” Yet we all submit and, generally agree, government is important and democracy works pretty well. On what basis? On what absolute can we base this?
I think the answer is that there is no absolute basis. We generally consent because it works out well (please, no conservative vs liberal arguments here…)and helps society function. It is a cultural convention. This, although a poor analogy, is also a bit of how I feel about morality.
Chris C. said
Upon what standards do you make your claims?
God says: “Thou shalt not murder.”
And then God committs and condones muder over and over again. Not only that, but he does things which we almost universally agree are wrong. What is there, some double standard? God makes the rules for us but he can break them? I guess the answer is yes.
And why not be consistent? I mean surely there’s plenty of sodomy going on these days, plenty of idol worship. Heck, Islam is outpacing Christianity. I’ll bet God is miffed over that one…why no fireballs raining down?
justaman said
So if morality is made up and not based upon a solid foundation, then we can make our own rules right? Jean Paul Sartre said this, “It is nowhere written that “the good” exists, that one must be honest or must not lie, since we are now upon the plane where there are only men. Dostoevsky once wrote: “If God did not exist, everything would be permitted”; and that, for existentialism, is the starting point. Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist, and man is in consequence forlorn, for he cannot find anything to depend upon either within or outside himself. He discovers forthwith, that he is without excuse. For if indeed existence precedes essence, one will never be able to explain one’s action by reference to a given and specific human nature; in other words, there is no determinism – man is free, man is freedom. Nor, on the other hand, if God does not exist, are we provided with any values or commands that could legitimise our behaviour. Thus we have neither behind us, nor before us in a luminous realm of values, any means of justification or excuse. – We are left alone, without excuse. That is what I mean when I say that man is condemned to be free. Condemned, because he did not create himself, yet is nevertheless at liberty, and from the moment that he is thrown into this world he is responsible for everything he does.”
Chris C. said
Oof, digging through Sartre at this hour is not good for my health. That, and it reminds me of those bleakly nihilistic days ….
Sure, everything is permitted in the sense there is no cosmic police. But we do have a highly evolved sense of right and wrong. It’s not the same for everyone and it ocassionally misfires. Luckily most places have governments. And for these governments everything is most definitely not permitted.
Really, though, it’s an excellent quotation there. If I had the ability to fully respond I’d probably be writing philosophy books as opposed to spending my friday nights doing this…
I kind of agree with Sartre’s premise that “Thus we have neither behind us, nor before us in a luminous realm of values, any means of justification or excuse.” He seems only concerned, however, with justification or excuse that is transcedant to humanity. Who is to say that justification and meaning and all those anti-nihilistic things cannot come from within humanity? Who is to say we can’t create those things? If there is no external source of meaning or ultimate purpose, then what really is ‘meaning’ anyway? Seems I can define it however I want. Seems we as a society can define it however we like. I derive meaning from setting goals and accomplishing them; from sharing love and experiences with friends and family. That gives my life meaning – to me – and thats all that matters.
justaman said
I like your questions posed in 31 and 32. I will answer in the morning.
John said
Chris C., your answers are rather good, however you must realize that nothing you provide will be really accepted by people like Brad. I can’t help but think that your answers regarding scripture will always be labeled as being out of the “proper context”, if you get my drift.
Perhaps Brad or Justaman can answer for us the ways in which scripture DOES NOT advocate slavery, ethinic cleansing, geonicide, racism, sexism, and infantcide.
If you like we could provide you with more Bible verses and you could explain to us how, in the proper contexts, the scriptures do not mean what they seem to mean so obviously.
Your thoughts?
Chris C. said
You know, John, I think Freud would have something to say about why an atheist like myself comes here and blogs with conservative Christians. But, nevertheless, I have no delusion of changing people’s minds or “de-converting” them. I do, however, enjoy debate. And I often, through the discussion, am able to better defend my own views or, on ocassion, change them.
Amanda said
Two points:
We are told in the Old Testament that “children are the heritage of the Lord”, and “happy is the man who hath his quiver full of them.” (Psalm 127:3,5) One cannot recognize that God is the author of life, the giver of the most precious gift of children, and then consent to the killing of them simply because we abuse our agency and break the moral commands upon which they were intended to be brought into the world. As the Doctrine and Covenants of the LDS Church says in section 88:33…”For what doth it profit man(or woman) if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he (she)receives not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him (her), neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.”
Every society legislates someone’s morality. If the majority of the people love God, they try to reflect His laws in their governmental legislation as closely as they can. In a vacuum of what God has said are good moral principles, someone else’s morality-or lack thereof, will always rush in.
John said
I understand.
I come here for similar reasons, Chris C.
Sarah said
Of course you can be a Christian and be Pro-abortion. You’ll just be a Christian who’s wrong about abortion. Being a Christian doesn’t suddenly make you all-knowing–that’s God’s job–and Christians can be wrong and still be Christians.
I used to think killing was wrong. Period. So then what about war? What about pedophiles who murder their young victims? Then someone explained that the Bible uses two different words for “murder” and “kill.” Thou shalt not murder, but killing under certain conditions may be sanctioned by God. I wasn’t any less a Christian when I thought the death penalty should be overthrown.
Fortunately, God only has one hard and fast rule for being a Christian and that’s to believe in salvation through the death and resurrection of Christ. Beyond that, it’s about growing in faith and hungering for righteousness. Thank God, He doesn’t expect us to get it right our first try! I know I’d be in trouble–how about you?
Charlie S. said
God does not play politics, abortion is wrong under any circumstances.
Jack said
To sharpen debate skills…WOW what a reason to argue for the murder of the most innocent among us!
I see the conversations now “So why are you here?” “Well I was sharpening my debate skills, but Jesus wasn’t impressed? You wouldn’t happen to have a glass of water would you”.
I can’t match you’re eloquent dissertation, but you’re art of argue can be defeated. Ask a kid at 20 if they are willing to die because their mom wanted to abort them. Their gonna say, well sure I’ll just self terminate when I get home tonight. It still hurts me at 49 to know my father is pro-abortion.
Another fault in the logic soooo if anything “inside” a woman is hers to do as she pleases?…can you say Loran Bobbit ouch.
John said
It was not inside of her at that time[grin].
Wishing everyone a very Happy Easter!
Or for those types that are opposed to Easter because of it’s paganism, a very Happy,…uh,..Celebration of the Time that Jesus arose from Death!
Have a great day either way, if you can[smile].
Chris C. said
Big difference between a 20 year old and a fetus.
The twenty year old is self-aware, sentient, conscious, able to think for himself, etc. A fetus is not, at least not in the same way.
Rhonda B. said
Chris C.
I’ll be praying for you… I just read post 27. I won’t comment other than to say that I will be praying that Truth will be made known to you.
justaman said
Answer to Chris’s post 31. I’d have to agree with you, it is a poor analogy to make your point but a good one for mine. Why does government work though? Because structure and authority works. Is it perfect? No way, but it does work generally. Why is that? I submit because that is the way this world was created and designed. Everything we see has an order/structure and everything thing submits to an ultimate authority. Drop a rock and it falls to earth. Science is a way in which we can marvel at the laws of nature that God has put in place. Just as there are laws of nature there are also moral laws that we must obey or the consequences catch up to us. And just as there are moral laws at work so also are there spiritual laws at work. There are laws of math and of logic that make sense of the world around us.
Now government, while imperfect because it is carried out by people and is therefore subject to sin and corruption, is still a system that models the authoritative order, and this is what has sustained and protected societies throughout history. But again, they are all tainted by the sinful roots of the imperfect people within the systems and none of them have ever endured to the end. And yes much to your joy, even the theocracies have failed miserably for the same reasons. We do have an ULTIMATE government that we can look forward to though. One of which is perfect. As a matter of fact all of creation will be restored to its perfect order where the redeemed will also be immortal, imperishable, and incorruptible, where the King of Glory, the Prince of Peace, the Redeemer of our souls will reign forever, and ever, and ever… What a wonderful blessed assurance we have to look forward to.
Are you somewhat of a relativist Chris? You said, “I think the answer is that there is no absolute basis.” Are you absolutely sure about that??
Tim Keller in his new book, The Reason for God, gives a good example of why we HAVE to base our laws upon a firm foundation. Not on just societal opinion which is a moving target. He gives an example of divorce laws. He makes the point that if you make divorce laws based upon the “western secularized individualistic beliefs” then you will favor the “individual”. You will treat marriage as a means to individual happiness, and then when the individual is no longer happy then you make marriage really easy to get out of. But if you make divorce laws based upon the belief that the needs of the family are more important than the needs of the individual, that the nurturing and protection of the children within the families is more important than individual happiness, then you will make divorce laws very difficult. You see there has to be a foundation on which you make laws. When laws are established contrary to God’s laws, the society inevitably begins to break down more rapidly. History has certainly proven that. Just like when you break laws of good nutrition, your body begins to break down, get fat, get sick, etc. Virtually all of life’s systems follow this pattern. It really all ties together and makes sense when you look at it this way. “God’s way”.
justaman said
Chris
In regards to your post #32, you are basing your judgment of Scripture on an incomplete interpretation. Yes, God’s law says do not murder, but God is not murdering. You must also understand that God’s law says that the punishment for sin is death. God is the ultimate arbiter of judgment and he renders His judgment to individuals as well as entire societies who are corrupt and deny His laws. You claim that because he does not do (or has not done) this consistently that He is therefore inconsistent. Now tell me again, from what absolute vantage point are you able to see all of the reasons why and or when God should do (or should have done) this or that? God acts as he sees fit and when He deems it appropriate, as Brad put it in an earlier post, “… God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.” Romans 8:28.
I think I will trust that God sees all and knows all and is therefore able to judge and rule much better than you (or I) can armchair quarterback all He has done in the past.
Philip said
Chris C. says: “Big difference between a 20 year old and a fetus. The twenty year old is self-aware, sentient, conscious, able to think for himself, etc. A fetus is not, at least not in the same way.”
The “big difference” is simply 20 years. A “fetus” is simply a future “20 year old”.
Should we be allowed to kill someone while they are sleeping, when they are not “self-aware, sentient, conscious, or able to think for himself?” We would say, “No, wait a few hours and they will exibit those qualities.”
Well, give the “fetus” a little time and they will exibit those qualities too. They deserve the right to “wake up” as much as the person who is sleeping.
justaman said
Yesiree!! Good point Philip!
John said
If you had to murder someone Philip, that WOULD be an ideal time.
And if one did a good job of it, the victim wouldn’t even feel any pain, to boot! Assuming that one cared about the victims feelings, of course.
Besides, a 20 year old adult would have sufficient time to turn into the kind of a person that one might actually WANT to murder, which would be a bonus, don’t you think?
Mike S said
John
You are truly twisted aren’t you? And proud of it I’m sure…
John said
As I remove my Kukri machete from my belt to make my position at this computer more comfortable, it comes to mind the fact that I have never denied this possibility Mr. Sears, although “proud” is not the choice of word that I would have picked if I thought of myself as being “twisted”.Although there is a certain “freedom” and creativity that goes along with the label. Hmmmmmmmm.
Those who know me best know that I am honest, horribly honest, with myself and with others. And I was just being honest about the idea of murdering one who was asleep.Can you think of a better time for such an opportunity? Besides, murder is not always a “bad” thing, after all.Do you remember our discussions on this topic on the very similar “Is Abortion Homicide?” site?
Chris C. said
If we’re going to say it’s wrong to kill a fetus because it has the potential to be a twenty year old, that’s a dangerous line. Ever time you blow your nose or shave you are killing what could be millions of 20 year olds. After all, babies all start from one cell which is then multiplied and then those multiplied cells are specialized.
justaman said
Chris
Now THAT is scientific! Ha!! You’ve GOT to be joking right?
changed180 said
I would like to know just how sure these atheist are about the nonexistence of God.
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