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Obama Elected: Where Do Christians Go From Here?

Posted by truthtalklive on November 5, 2008

How should the body of Christ respond to the election of Barak Obama to best promote healing and the gospel? Todays guest host is Alex McFarland  President of Southern Evangelical Seminary  and host of the 2008 National Conference on Christian Apologetics being held in Charlotte, NC this weekend. Tickets are available tollfree at 1-800-77-TRUTH and there’s more information online at www.nationalapologeticsconference.com . Everyone who registers today gets a free copy of Alex’s book “Stand -Core Truths You must Know for an Unshakeable Faith”.


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113 Responses to “Obama Elected: Where Do Christians Go From Here?”

  1. Maz said

    To their knees.

  2. Paul said

    Repentance, stop looking so much like the world. The Church is a compromising Church. It’s not just about who you voted for it is very Telling on the state of the Church. The love of what I can get out of the deal, not the love for the Lord. And another thing, biblical illiteracy. It all breaks my heart.

    I mean really how many times do we give our word to people and then break our word and hardly take notice that we have? Just think about that for a minute.

    It’s more than that, we need to get real.seriously.

  3. Ed said

    Promote the Gospel that is in the Bible. Stop the foolishness. Stop worrying about peoples feelings. Stop worrying.
    God has it all in his hands. If He did not, He would not be God.
    Preach and promote the Gospel, the healing will follow.

  4. Jay said

    We just have to trust the lord and know he is in control. Pray for our country. I am however worried if Obama pulls the troups out of Iraq quickly that our brothers and sisters over there would be in peril.

  5. Ed said

    As a Navy retiree, I can tell you this as a certanty. All armed forces personnel are in peril. We know and train for the peril.
    As a Christian, do I train like I did in the Navy?

  6. Stanley said

    To the Quad! PARTY!!!

  7. Jay said

    I was speaking about the our christian brothers and sisters that would not have the protection to worship and gather in a Islamic country. I was in the Army and I think the application of training in the word and prayer make us stronger in the sprit just like the training in the military made us better soldiers-sailors-marines

  8. Stanley said

    There is no way America is ever going to be an Islamic country. Conservatives don’t like Islam, Liberals don’t like Islam that much because its too conservative… I don’t like Islam because I don’t like organized religion.

    Don’t worry about it. Its not going to happen.

  9. Jay said

    Without sounding like an extermist do you think this is a sign of the times?

  10. Stanley said

    No. I’m an atheist. I don’t think the world is coming to the end in the near foreseeable future.

    But really, who likes Islam? Muslims and… nobody else. I don’t like Christian extremists, and they’re centrists compared to muslim extremists.

  11. Jay said

    Hey stanley do you believe the world is going to end? And if you were to die today where would you go? If im right and you convert you have everything to gain but if your wrong you have everything to lose/ So conversion would be a win-win wouldnt it? I dont understand atheism i will pray for you tho.

  12. Stanley said

    Jay. I like you. You expressed concern over the people over in Iraq if we withdraw. Most people say “I don’t want to wave the flag of defeat.”
    What is more important? Claiming a hollow victory or the lives of innocent?

  13. Ed said

    Islam convservatism and the U.S. constitution cannot co-exsist.
    This is one of many signs of the times. This may be the way the anti-christ will be ushered in. However, the I beleive the world will become worse before that will come. The whole world will be so tired of wars, economic desasters that a siver-tounged devil can sway the whole world.

  14. Jay said

    Stanley i like you too and i believe that that is one of the great commandments by Christ. Love the Lord with all your heart and Love one another. So yes i do care about all life.

  15. Stanley said

    I think the world will end one day, but thats just going by what I think is most probable. There are a lot of reasons the world as we know it would end. A massive meteor, like what killed the dinosaurs, a super volcano, nuclear winter, Sarah Palin becoming President, etc. Lets hope it doesn’t come to that.

    I’ll continue my post after I come back from Anthropology. Curse you, lab!

  16. Jay said

    Hey thanks to all enjoyed god bless you and our country. Its never to late Stanley think about what I said. If im right you have heaven to gain if you wrong you have hell to pay. But if you right nothing. Giving you life Jesus is a win-win. I hope you reconsider you sound like a smart man read and learn

  17. Ed said

    The democrats have gotten what they want. Lets see how it works out for them.

  18. Sheryl said

    I have often wondered about what the socio-political environment would be in this country just prior to the tribulation, since at present around 84% of all persons living in the US proclaim a belief “in God”. That would require the majority to be persecuted which would not make too much sense. Now I understand what it will look and feel like when the majority of persons professing Christianity now and at that time will fall away (just as the Bible states). I can only say to those so willing to compromise: “He who does not obey the Son shall not see life” (John 3:36) and “Those who were disobedient …were not able to enter because of unbelief” (Heb 3: 18-19). Per God, disobedience = disbelief. I am so very sad at the number of persons who have wandered far, far away and can’t see they are not on God’s path. They are on the feel-good, pop-psychology, social gospel path. We should pray and not lose hope. He will never leave us or forsake us. There is only one gospel and it is the gospel of Jesus Christ alone. This election result, as with everything, was God’s Will.

  19. Ed said

    It will be interesting to see if Christianity were to be illegal here in the U.S. If you think this is outragious, take a walk with me for a bit here.
    Islamic fundamentalists are sending through the defemation of religions act that defends only Islam. Put to law, and our lawmakers have as much backbone as they have now, adopt it.
    Secular Humanists are pounding away daily the hint of religion in the U.S. Don’t believe me? How many times has the 10 commandments been decryed as unconstitutional by the ACLU? How many ways have prayer in schools been outlawed?
    More types of religion have been created and demand the respect that Christianity has today, minimizing and marginalizing Christianity.
    Stanly just posted that he dislikes Christian extreemists. Ok. Define Christain Extreemist.
    Christianity grew best when persecuted most. The problem with current “christians” is that they have not had to defend thier faith. Today it is (still) almost popular to be a “christian”. Don’t acutally expect “christians” to know or understand what they believe because they don’t know what they believe. Put a little pressure on them. Put a little fire under thier feet and see what happens. They are just like slugs with salt.

  20. Tripp said

    Like I’ve said in previous threads….I want to see Barack place one hand on the Bible, raise the other hand, and take the oath of inauguration.

    If he refuses to place his hand on the Bible……there’s your sign.

  21. John said

    Tripp, ANY crooked person can do that. Nixon did it, all past presidents, criminals in court and corrupt judges too.
    It’s not as if Obama might be a vampire like in the old movies, and we’re waiting to see whether or not the Bible burns his flesh[grin].

  22. Ed said

    I see where Tripp is going with this. If Obama does not wish to swear on a Bible, what is his faith? It is nothing if he were not Christian, but he based his platform on just that. I would not have cared if he were muslem or islam or wicka, as long as he claimed it beforehand. The issue here is that he claimed and vehmitly defended his christianity.

  23. Ed said

    BTW, most politicians are crooked. On that note, most people are crooked. It is part of the human condition.

  24. Joe said

    What went wrong? Let me share my thoughts,as an afro-american male I’m very disappoint with the so called black church in america. every where in my community i could see nothing but obama signs. and alot of these people are confessing christians. the young christian generation played a big part in this also, from the response from alot of the young adults in my church. i explained the facts on the things that this man vote on and for,but the response that got from her was well people will do what they will, and that it would’nt effect her beliefs. it sadden me that she would miss the biblical truths that i was sharing with her. even older black christian bretherens in christ was caught up in this historic moment. after witnessing this comprimise,it’s very easy to see how the anti-christ will fool and false prophets will lead many to hell. i heard this talk host say that 95% of the black male population voted for obama.i ‘ve heard on truthtalk live a black man say that it was God’s will for obama to win.now i know that’s a lie from the pit of hell. i’m for a minority in the white house,but obama was’nt the one. the church in this country need to wake-up and get some back bone,when the church ordaining homosexuals,and marry them,God judgement can’t be to far away! we must pray that God will move on obama heart and soul and convict him of his wick mindset and know that he need to repent and receive Jesus Christ as his lord and savior. amen amen

  25. Tripp said

    Dude refuses to put his hand over his heart and recite The Pledge…refused to wear the flag pin…..frankly, I’m a little concerned about that.

  26. Tripp said

    Joe, my friend. Where have you been?????

    Finally, the voice of truth.

  27. John said

    Did you mean to type “Wicca”, Ed[smile]?
    I am Wiccan, but I would put my hand on the Bible to be sworn it[in the ridiculous event that I was to try and become this nations president, and actually get elected. Those of you who know me best…can you even imagine?!?[Uproarious group laughter] I’m too good and honest to be a politician.]if anything out of respect for tradition. Such public rituals are not frowned upon in my faith, and others may have the same perspective.

  28. nikki said

    You know any christian that’s read the bible and done some serious study can see the times in which we live…I’m not saying the rapture’s coming tomorrow but you have to admit we are living in exciting times!!!
    I wonder how much Paul,John,Luke or the rest of them would have done differently than we have today. John the Baptist, the last of the OT belivers, stood up to the leaders and people of that day, faced the oppisition and took a stand. I don’t doubt before long it may come to that with the body today. The question is are we ready? Another thought, a persecuted church is a strong church, even if the church is one day driven underground in America God’s word is going to continue to spread under the guide of the Holy Spirit. Take courage my brothers and sisters we serve an awesome God and mighty is He!

  29. Ed said

    I have known some wiccans. They have been some of the most calm and understanding people around. To have one as president would not bother me (much). As I read the constitution, nowhere does it limit the protection of religion to just Christianity.
    The origional apostles (in my humble opinion) would have been estatic with having free reign to preach in the streets like we have today. On the flip side of that, the origional apostles (again in my humble opinion) would be agast that Christians today are happy to sit around and complain that we are not taken seriously. Christians of the day faced death on a daily basis. Christians of the day were ready to leave this earth for the Kingdom of Heaven at a moments notice. Sadly, here in America where there is no threat to person or faith, there seems to be little emphasis on the Word of God. The things Paul warned the Christians in Corinth and Rome about we face today. Doctrines of prosparity with lining your wallet or the car you drive instead of if you see your brother in need. If the original apostles were to see us today, there would be decrys that would make Jeremiah Wright seem tame.

  30. nikki said

    I agree and with shame to us for not doing more to spread His word but let us pray that the “sleeping giant” called the church will soon wake up before it’s too late!

  31. Ed said

    Then let us “go and do”. Let each of us be part of that reawakening. Don’t just pray for revival, be revival. By that I mean talk to everyone you come across about the Gospel. Not the touchy feely wimpy gospel that ignores hell and sin. I’m talking the Gospel of how each of us is headed for, and deserve, hell and how God provided each and every one of us the opportunity to be in His heaven through Jesus Christ.

  32. Stanley said

    Jay. I appreciate you trying to help me. I just think that is really flawed logic. If I’m going to commit myself to a religion, I would do it with all my heart filled with love, not fear of death. I do not fear death now, regardless of Christianity’s stance of the afterlife.

  33. Ed said

    Answer me this, what is the worst that can happen if you become a Christian?

  34. nikki said

    I believe that if more knew the truth, the whole truth, of the scriptures and what God really gave in order for us to have everlasting life there would be many more of those who, once shown, would see, but sadly it seems that unless you sign up for a class in the study of the scriptures your not going to get it from what’s coming out of the pulpit in most churches today. It’s only a “feel good” message being served and you know as well as I that although you walk out the door with a smile on your face it will only last till you get to the car.
    I agree with you and I will pray that those you witness to will have their eyes opened.

  35. Stanley said

    I’m an honest guy. I believe what I believe, and to say I’m something I’m not would be rather hypocritical of me. One of my values is that I don’t give up my values without adequate proof.

  36. Ed said

    OK, what did the lame man who Peter and John healed in the synagogue know? What did he say?
    What did the blind man that had to answer to the synagogue when he was healed by Jesus?
    Tell what you know. Tell your story. Tell people how you have been saved.
    If your Pastor is not giving the messages to armor and equip, tell him (or her). If that does not work, find another Church that will.

  37. nikki said

    Stanley, you must be searching for something of God whether you believe it or not for why are you here?

  38. Ed said

    I am not asking you to know the whole Bible to come to Christ. My question is a simple one. What do YOU see as being the worst thing that can happen? I am not asking you to be clarvoyant, prophet or seer. I am just asking what the worst thing you can think of happening if you bacame a Christian.

  39. nikki said

    I mean no disrespect but I know I was searching once too and I remember all too well how lost I really was.

  40. Ed said

    If Christianity were wrong, and there is no hell to shun or a heaven to gain, what would you have lost?

  41. John said

    Thanks Ed for your king words in post#29.
    Judging by the way many people fussed and created rumors about Obama being a hateful anti-American closet Muslim, I wouldn’t expect a chance in H[word sounds like “bell”] of being elected. At best I’d be lucky to end up in a Third Party. But I have no motivation, no interest in politics, no real trust in our government, and hate the lime lights anyway.

  42. Ed said

    Why not? Who heard of Obama 4 years ago?

  43. Stanley said

    I have sorta been trying to “search” for God. (Don’t tell Maz)

    But I’ve been trying to find truth and love and proof, but I find organized religion to cause a great deal of harm to the world, and I think that the world would be better off without it.

    I have my own version of God, and its perfect and can’t possibly be otherwise. If a God is anthropomorphic, I believe it can not be perfect.

  44. Stanley said

    I heard of Obama 4 years ago.

  45. VB said

    As most of the post have stated ‘We have to pray.’ We must pray ffor our leaders. God could change Pres. Obama’s heart. I don’t mean to sound ‘racist’ but it’s good to hear that another black american male thinks that President Obama does not reflect Christian values.
    My family and all of my black christian friends ‘drank the kool aid.’ We need to address our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ about abortion and show how antithetical it is to God’s word. God said it is an abomintion (Prov 6:16 There are six things which the LORD hates,Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,And hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans,Feet that run rapidly to evil,19 A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers. NASB)
    I can’t believe that so many christians compromise on abortion when it is God who allows a child to be conceived regardless if it was via infidelity, fornication, incest or rape.
    Not to condone any of the aforementioned, but birth control works. One could have their tubes tied.
    If abortion was illegal, maybe men and women would realize that the consequences of their act could produce life and that the act involved in creating that life should be precious. This would make them think more about their relationship and segway into a witnessing opportunity for the saints to show the ultimate relationship.
    We have to pray for our pastors to preach the word according to sound doctrine in season and out of season.
    Ironically, I think Pres. Obama night oppose the fairness doctrine due to his prior links with Rev. Wright. I am against the fairness doctrine because I believe it will flood in a rash of hate crime suits against the church.

    May you all ‘grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen’

  46. nikki said

    Jesus is not about the “organized” religion we have sooo much of today. He came to save a lost and dying world, and at a great price, the sheding of His own blood, on the cross.
    If it’s real love your looking for…
    Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice: And be kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christs’s sake hath forgiven you.
    Ephesians 4:31-32 KJV
    ….you will only find it in Jesus. Now admittedly even though we are christians we are by no means perfect. In fact we sometimes remove one foot only to insert the other when we follow our will other than God’s but if it’s the “real” thing your looking for Jesus is the only way. Man may let you down He never will.

  47. VB said

    Hi Stanley,

    You ‘sound’ like a nice smart guy. I think most of christian can relate to your plight. I was the same way before I accept Christ as my Lord and Savior. I used to provoke and tease my christian friends in order to catch them in a ‘gotcha’ moment. It grew boring pretty quick. I looked at other religions, even witchcraft (because I wanted some POWER).
    I’m glad you do come to this blog to ‘see’ what christians are saying. None of us (Christians)are perfect – as these blogs clearly show – but we are growing in His Grace.
    I hope you continue to blog and I do hope you are 100% sincere in finding out if there really is a God (vs mankind evoling from primordial soup which was just ‘there’ after the big bang,etc…).
    I would just propose that you truly pray that if God exist to please touch your life and point you to the truth. I ‘ guess’ you’ve heard that many times -but I do hope you will try it anyway. You might turn into one of the greatest theologians this world has ever seen.

  48. VB said


    Forgive my typos. I didn’t proofread what I typed.

    Good Night

  49. Stanley said

    I disagree.

  50. Stanley said

    God should not conflict with factual evidence.

  51. Lauren said

    Now that the election is over I’m done with this site. I’m done with TTL, I’m done with Stu, I’m done with wackos like Ed and Tripp, I’m done with the site’s moderator, I’m done with this on-line vehicle of hate radio, I’m done being a part of your bizarre world; I’m going back to the real world where there are sensible, thoughtful, intelligent, compassionate Christian citizens of this great Nation that see things as they really are, and how they aspire them to be. Don’t waste your energy responding to this post; when I press the Submit Comment button I’m gone for good, so good luck… God bless President Elect Obama and God bless America!

  52. Ed said

    I spent 20 years in the Navy. I did 5 deployments overseas. I’ll tell you what I have missed out in being a Christian.
    Drunkeness. I remember what I have done every night (or at least the next morning). I don’t have hangovers. I don’t have to apologize for foolishness that I could not apologize for because I was “out of my mind”.
    Sexual Deviancy. I don’t have to worry about STDs, unwanted pregnancies with women I barely knew or the club scene.
    I have less stress because I can talk to a God who cares about me. If something is bothering me, I can take it to God. I still have to deal with it, but having that ear is comforting.
    I can honestly say that I have missed out on very little as many of my shipmates were out doing that which people say they are free from if they are not Christians.
    If for nothing else, my life has been better here because of my belief in Jesus Christ. There is nothing out there that is good that God has not allowed me to do. The only limits on jobs (legal jobs) are my own limitations and talents.
    As far as finding the “perfect church”, there are none. As I told Nikki, find one that teaches the Bible without compromise and with conviction. As far as the people in the Chruch, remember they are still people on thier way to perfection and not there yet.
    Two things are required. Repent (turn from those things that are evil) and put your faith in Jesus Christ and His rightiousness.
    People cause harm. “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people”. Same with religion. It is the hardness and evil hearts that people kill. Some religions do not confront this evil but rather passify it. The only religion that I have found that confronts this “human condition” is Christianity.

  53. John said

    Poor man.
    Doesn’t he realize that this “bizarre world” is filled with the “wackos” that actually compose his real world?
    For all he knows, Ed or Tripp are his next door neighbors[grin].

  54. VB said


    He doesn’t. Not all people believe in evolution. Not all scientist believ in evlolution. What came before the big bang. What caused the big bang. The big bang theory has different versions (due to the assumptions made for the ‘starting point).
    Anyway, it reverts back to the ‘chicken or the egg’ question.

  55. VB said

    Oops! Typos…again. Sorry!!! I’m ‘off the air’ Good Night

  56. Ed said

    Ok Stanley,
    What factual evidence says there is no God?

  57. Ed said

    I am a Nuclear Trained Submarine mechanic. By definition I am “wacko”. Ask any Marine. They will tell you how disturbed us bubbleheads are.

  58. Stanley said

    Ed, what factual evidence says there is a God?

    I believe in Evolution. I might be an anthropology major.

  59. Ed said

    OK Stanley,
    What says that God could not have used evolution to create the world?

  60. Stanley said

    He could have, but then the bible is not complete fact, and is then unreliable.

  61. Ed said

    OK, how? Another scripture says that to God 1 day is as 1000 years and 1000 years is but a day.

  62. Ed said

    Add to it, there is evidence that Noah’s ark does exsist on top of Mt. Arrat.

  63. Stanley said

    Evolution obviously happened, but it doesn’t need a divine cause for it to happen.

  64. Joe said

    Wow,lauren really sound pissed. and she’s going back to the real world. personally i really appreciate ttl program, because if you listen long enough,the topics are thought prevoking. lauren the real world is actually an illision.

  65. Ed said

    OK, if not required then not possible? What are the odds that humans would be walking the earth just by evolution alone?
    You know, the real world that agrees with her world view.

  66. Joe said

    hey guys stanley will find out soon enough that God is who He says that He is and that we didn’t come from apes and that one day in eternity he and the rest of us will also. you have stated the biblical facts to mr. stanley and like so many he’s not hearing you in the natural, oh but his spirit being is crying out for this truth,because within every heart there’s a void that only the love of Christ can fill. look you’ve stow the seed in this man’s heart,now let the Holy Spirit do the rest. because we all just one heart beat away from stepping into eternity. peace out,and good-night.

  67. Ivy said

    This is so odd. I really used to like TTL, but the Christians who frequent this site have shown themselves to be of questionable Christian character.

    You believe lies, rumors, and innuendo about a man that just because YOU hadn’t heard of him 4 years ago, seemed to appear out of thin air – even though he’s been working in the trenches for 15 years. Ok. I truly believe that this line of attack and negativity are your Racist slips showing.

    Barack Obama isn’t perfect. Juxtaposed to those on the left practically worshipping the man, you people go to the other extreme and are making him out to be satan incarnate. Why would you give one man that much credit??? It’s almost akin to a type of idolatry! Soak yourselves in Isaiah 41:10 and Psalm 56:11.

    Read and renew your spirits with Romans 13:3-4! Daniel 2:20-21! DANIEL 4:17! And finally, Proverbs 3:5!

    You all need to take a break from politics. Back away from Fox News and read your bible. Soak your spirit in the Lord. Barack is on the path that God set him on. Just like GWB was ordained by God, Barack was too. Or do you not believe Daniel 4:17?

    And for the record, and for the final time – open your ears/eyes for this one – Barack is not a Muslim and is not going to set up Shira law in the United States.

    And in closing, you all talk about your Christian friends who “drank the koolaid” <– that’s a racist cliche, you know…Why do you cast them as innocent, don’t-know-any-better sheep that were led astray by Big Bad Half-Black Obama? They know Barack is a Democrat. Most Dems tow the party line and are pro-choice. But, when Barack claims to be a Christian, he’s somehow lying about his religion precisely he’s pro-choice? But your “real Christian” friends are just confused or something? Really? Why are you questioning YOUR PRESIDENT-ELECT’s (or anyone’s, for that matter) religion/salvation, but not your Christian friends who voted for him?

    Please stop the madness.

  68. Tonya said

    Hey Guys,
    I am with Lauren. I just moved to the area and just began listening to TTL on my way home from work every evening a few months ago. The trash and division that has been displayed both on the air and on this site has been making me sick to my stomach. The division that has been caused by deliberate seeds of dissention will grow and those who have sown them, including Stu, will reap the harvest.

    When I first found TTL, I thought it would be an informative forum to bring together brothers and sisters in Christ when in actuality it seemed to thrive on the division it caused. All I heard was invitations for people that did not agree with the question of day to call in only to be shouted down and then told “we are running out of time” (which always seem to come when someone challeged the position of the host).

    Stu may be a great guy. I don’t know. I can only judge my own experiences with him. He allowed one of his guests to say that as a Black person in America, I could not call myself an African American because I was not born in Africa. When I challenged Stu on the point (during the break) he agreed with me (I cited the use of Asian American and Italian American titles for folks who were born here who descended from people in these areas) but he did not challenge his own guest on the air about it. How sad!!???

    I bid you all a farewell. TTL and Stu, I challenge you to spread the gospel of love and salvation to Christ Jesus!

    I leave you with this: John 13:35

    “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    Does the world who is watching, including the atheist folks that visit this site, know we are His disciples????

  69. Ed said

    Ivy, Lauren, Tonya
    I have found that Christians vett each other harder than other groups. “Judgement must begin in the house of God”. If we do not hold each other up in prayer, none of us can fulfill our calling in Jesus Christ. If we do not hold each other acountable for our actions, how do we know what kind of fruit we are bearing.
    Christian artists are held to an infinitely higher personal moral standard than non-christians.
    Christian politicians are held to an infinitely higher personal moral and voting standard than non-christians. The reason for this is that there is a standard, the Bible. Does that make Christians perfect? No. The beauty (and curse) is that I know how I am doing and how each other is doing. It is not a “relative” measure. It is an absolute measure. None of us can meet the standard on our own. That is where the grace and mercy of God comes into play.
    Let me ask a question, and I hope that I do not sound trite or complaining. This is asked in a heart that wishes only the best.
    Has our desire to vote an African-American into office blinded our judgment of his policies? I pray that it is not true.
    I will pray for President-elect Obama till he is no longer in office. I will stand by him as I have for each President as a retired military man. He now deserves our respect. He now deserves our prayers.

  70. Maz said

    Stanley: #43.
    ”I have sorta been trying to “search” for God”.(Don’t tell Maz)
    Why not?
    I do understand why you don’t want religion. I don’t like religion either.
    You shouldn’t guage Christianity by the way some Christians are, or how the Church is, or anything like that, because we havn’t reached perfection yet……OK we are supposed to be a light to the world and we are supposed to ‘love one another’ and be one Body, that the world might believe that He is God…..but we have miserably failed to reveal Who Jesus is to the world at times, and we only have ourselves to blame.
    May God forgive us for being such poor examples of His love and grace.
    I hope you will find Him before it is too late in spite of our short comings.

  71. Tripp said

    Bye-bye Tonya!

    In the words of Jack Nicholson from “A Few Good Men”….


    This is not a hate site. This is where Christians who are willing to stand up and fight for what is right DO SO!

  72. Ivy said

    First of all, Ed, please do not patronize me by trying to “explain” why you all act the way you do. I absolutely agree that ALL LEADERS are to be held up to a higher standard, including Christians! We are leaders in this world, although some would rather muck around in the mud with the ignorant ones instead of lifting themselves up to the higher standards set by God. We are to be salt and light to this world. And as such, it does no good for anyone who looks to us as an example when we sow discourse among the brethren just because our favored candidate didn’t get picked!

    McCain can’t stand you people, in case you missed it! He said he was a Christian because he was trying to get your support. He used you! And you let him! And he still lost!

    My problem with many white (and some black) Christians is that all of these negative overtones about Barack’s win have a racism undercurrent. You would not be flipping out and stating he was the antichrist and the world was going to come to an end if he were white. You’d instead be complaining that another Dem won the office.

    And to your final point, Ed – and let me state this loud and clear so the message isn’t missed – I did not vote for Barack Obama because he is half-black.

    I vetted the man and in the beginning wasn’t for him. But, I realized that my values and his values were more aligned than mine and McCain’s. I do my homework! And how dare you people assume that Black people don’t think these things through. That somehow we ignored “all the signs” or whatever and voted for his race. Most Black Americans are Democrats. If Barack had been white with a name like Tom Donley, guess what – over 90% of black people would have voted for Tom.

    Get over yourselves. And as I stated before: Get. In. Your. Bible.

  73. Tripp said

    A guy named Paul posted this on the other thread. Pretty much sums it up:

    Lemanda in your previous show post:We have had at least 30+ years to fight for the unborn and WE didn’t

    You know judges don’t have term limits and because of you disire to have a black president we are now set back a generation and that would be around 40 years, now can you see why people are so upset with your choice based soley on race.

    And yet you knew to do good and you didn’t and the bible calls that sin.

  74. Ivy said

    Tripp, this may not be a hate site, but you all have been spewing hate and discord anyway.

    This negative fasination with a man named – no, your President – named Barack Obama is perverse.

    But that is what happens when you lean more on men’s deeds than you do on God’s sovereignty.

    And then you have the nerve to rejoice over a sister in Christ being so turned off by your behavior that she’s leaving the site. That shows that you agree there is nothing here she can learn in order to grow in God.

  75. Lemanda and Tonya,

    We’re sorry you feel so strongly about Stu, the Moderator and TTL.

    We would love to keep you on as listeners, but alas we cannot make you.

    As Moderator it is not my place to involve myself with the debate, so I’m not sure why I’m getting the backlash. However, I do stand by Stu and the team. You do not know the real man and millions of people feel the same way he does right now.

    Moderator (not Stu)

  76. Tripp said

    Ivy – What you call hate, I call truth.

    Sorry we disagree.

    Obviously, God put Obama in office for a reason. Nothing we can do now except pray and wait and see.

  77. Tripp, Ivy and others…

    We think it’s time to let this petty bickering go and rally around the topic of what Christians should do now. Whether you voted for McCain or Obama we believe the right thing to do is what many have mentioned here, which is dig deep into God’s Word and pray hard for our country and new leader.

    Thank you.

    Moderator (not Stu)

  78. Ivy said

    Tripp. Tripp. Tripp.

    Are you reading? Are you paying attention?

    Go to #72 and #74 above. Open the bible and read the passages.

  79. abc's said


    “This is not a hate site. This is where Christians who are willing to stand up and fight for what is right DO SO!”

    This looks like your typical message board to me. How does posting on a christian message board constitute as standing up and fighting for what you believe in? For the most part, I see disagreement even amongst yourselves. You are no different than the rest of the people in this world. You don’t have any secret knowledge that makes your life any more special than anyone elses.

    I think that Christians should continue doing what they are doing. Go to church. Read your bibles. Preach the message of peace and love and unity. Continue the ministries that provide food, shelter and education to the less fortunate. Continue the crusade against abortion, homosexuals and science.

    Your actions speak much louder than words. In the end, maybe you will win a few more converts, or maybe society will grow up and realize that we are ultimately responsible for our actions no matter what your faith is in.

  80. Maz said

    I hear a lot of heated emotion….wrong or right, if we are believers of the Lord Jesus Christ, we have to stand by the truth but try….very hard….. not to insult or cast aspersions at one another. How will the world see that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, if we are hurtling all sorts at each other and over political issues too.
    Please let us pray for the Lord to give us love for those who oppose us or disagree with us on any issue. It’s hard at times, I know, but it is upsetting…..especially, I imagine, for the Lord Himself, to see His children act like this.
    May God help us all on here to keep our tempers under check and allow His grace and mercy to flow.

  81. Barney said

    “How many times has the 10 commandments been decryed as unconstitutional by the ACLU? How many ways have prayer in schools been outlawed?”
    -Ed post #19

    Never and none. The establishment of religion by our government is unconstitutional. Hope this helps you to understand a little better.

    “Add to it, there is evidence that Noah’s ark does exsist on top of Mt. Arrat.” – Ed post #62

    No, there isn’t. Do you think that they found Noah’s Ark because some TV show says so? Or what?

  82. Tripp said

    I agree with the Moderator, Re: comment #77.

    Time to acknowledge, move forward.

  83. Mike said

    I feel the church is entering a period of persecution.

    We know that is not always a bad thing. The key is for us to truly love those who persecute us and the church. Recently, our church went through a season of persecution and our pastor really focused his love, and the love of the church, on those who were persecuting us. It yielded great hope in our body.

    If we, the church, suffer persecution in the season ahead, then through perseverance, character and hope, we are strengthen as we boast in the Cross of Jesus. Let’s remember to love those who give us hope though their persecution of us.

  84. Stanley said

    How are you getting persecuted if you’re like… 84% of the population? Just think how the little guy feels. I can’t even run for office with any hope of winning without converting.

  85. Lemanda said


    You are missing the point I really hate to admit this but I will…..
    I have been voting since I was 18 years old I have always been Democrate never once ONCE have I ever felt guilty about voting democrate until now!!!!!!!! I dont remember all this hate and bashing when Bill Clinton was voted in office. Like the sister said earlier if Obama was white I would and every other black democrate would have voted him in ONLY W/O THE GUILT. man I tell ya this is crazy. I will continue to trust in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ which is very soon to come

    ……..Stu you do have to ask the Lord for forgivness also for sowing seeds of discord among the brothern your anti views were evident I really did enjoy your show it was great company on my way home. Now I dont know what I’m going to listen to.

  86. Brad said


    For someone who doesn’t like what she’s hearing, why are you still sticking around?

  87. Stanley said

    If anyone is being persecuted, it the Homosexuals. The proposition 8 in California passed to disallow gay marriage, but I don’t expect that to be the end of it. This is the part where I have a HUGE problem with the church getting involved in politics. I think it is DESPICABLE that the super churches in California would campaign so hard for this proposition, spending millions of dollars so it would pass, when it could have been spent on something Christ like, like helping the less fortunate. This is one of the biggest turn offs I have of the Church. It shows you the quality of a large percentage of Churches, not in helping people, but in making sure they have the last say in matters that don’t effect them. Christians meddle.

    Don’t think this one is over.

  88. Stanley said

    That being said, I’m off to Winston for a basketball game tonight. Wake Forest vs. Mt. Olive, and 7:00 at the LJVM.


  89. Maz said

    ”Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath.” James 1 v 19.

  90. Apparently not, Stanley. Let’s see where it goes. As long as we keep it civil and positive it could be a healthy debate.

    Moderator (not Stu)

  91. F. L. A. said

    Post#68, Yes Tonya, we know that you are His disciples.

  92. Ed said

    I am not explaining what everyone else does, I am explaining what I have seen. Right, wrong or indifferent.
    I have seen too many demands of removal of the 10 commandments from public areas. The prayer that was prayed in schools is so vague that it conveyed no specific religion. There are pictures of the ark. There is wood pulled from the ark. There are eye witness testimonies to the ark. Tell me that you believe in evolution, which no one has seen macro-evolution, but chide me for believing in an ark that has evidence? The devide between religion and government was this, religion should reign in government and government should not control religion. That is what the founding fathers believed and said.
    84% claim christianity. With that majority, prayer is abolished (to the point that teachers cannot pray and students cannot lead a group prayer), abortion is praised (right to choose is the right to abortion and has nothing to with a woman’s choice e.g. Sarah Pailin’s down syndrome child) removing anything that has to do with religion from government and public view. Up until now christians have stayed out of politics, how has that worked out so far? Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. Am I as a Christian, not allowed to voice my opinion of moral issues?

  93. Ed said

    I am not saying that everyone who voted for Barack Obama was doing so for a historical bent. My question was rehtorical in nature and not judgemetal in nature. “If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, don’t.”

  94. Maz said

    Ed is right. Women have the right to kill their baby in the womb but Christians don’t have the right to pray in school. And the ten commandments are removed from public places. Ludicrous. While other people are gaining certain freedoms, Christians are losing theres.

  95. Mike S. said

    Of the 84% who claim to be Christian, I would be surprised if 10% of them actually were. “Narrow is the gate…” The rest of the 74% are not really being persecuted because they don’t actually care or even believe what the Bible says… Barney, do you resemble that remark? It’s the 10% (or less) who take a stand for God’s Word who are continually being attacked for doing such!

  96. Jared said

    Maz … got it right.

    Before we do anything else we need to start doing what we were made and saved for, brought out of Egypt for, brought back from the Persian empire for, what the Reformation was for, and what we came to this continent for.

    Notice I said WE, meaning corporately. We, meaning God’s elect people.

    WORSHIP GOD in spirit and in truth. Not one or the other. Both and corporately and in orthodoxy.

    God gives us clear direction in His word by command and example of the early church, but what do we do as the body of Christ. Gather for pep talks and seminars on the latest greatest methods, prophecy conferences, purpose driven purpose workshops, our best life now sermons, missions vacations, and outreach building activities.

    Some of these things aren’t bad until they take the place of worship. Look at our churches. They are in whole a joke.

    People need to set aside a day unto the Lord and gather with the saints for corporate WORSHIP.

    Romans 1 starting in 18

    18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

    24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

    We no longer as a church in the majority honor God or give thanks to Him. So we have ended up like He tells us. Now go to your bible and read the rest. It gets worse. It is time to WORSHIP our Lord again in humility as did David after his many great sins, as Ezra did when the exiles returned, but had intermarried, like Daniel did, like our Savior the Lord Jesus Christ did, like the early church did.

  97. Mike S. said

    And they (many so-called Christians) are saying to God like they did in Isaiah 58…

    True Fasting
    1 “Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
    Raise your voice like a trumpet.
    Declare to my people their rebellion
    and to the house of Jacob their sins.
    2 For day after day they seek me out;
    they seem eager to know my ways,
    as if they were a nation that does what is right
    and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
    They ask me for just decisions
    and seem eager for God to come near them.

    3 ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
    ‘and you have not seen it?
    Why have we humbled ourselves,
    and you have not noticed?’
    “Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
    and exploit all your workers.

    4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
    and in striking each other with wicked fists.
    You cannot fast as you do today
    and expect your voice to be heard on high.

    5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
    only a day for a man to humble himself?
    Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
    and for lying on sackcloth and ashes?
    Is that what you call a fast,
    a day acceptable to the LORD ?

    6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
    to loose the chains of injustice
    and untie the cords of the yoke,
    to set the oppressed free
    and break every yoke?

    7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
    and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
    when you see the naked, to clothe him,
    and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

    8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
    and your healing will quickly appear;
    then your righteousness [a] will go before you,
    and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.

    9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
    you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
    “If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
    with the pointing finger and malicious talk,

    10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
    and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
    then your light will rise in the darkness,
    and your night will become like the noonday.

    11 The LORD will guide you always;
    he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
    and will strengthen your frame.
    You will be like a well-watered garden,
    like a spring whose waters never fail.

    12 Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins
    and will raise up the age-old foundations;
    you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls,
    Restorer of Streets with Dwellings.

    13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
    and from doing as you please on my holy day,
    if you call the Sabbath a delight
    and the LORD’s holy day honorable,
    and if you honor it by not going your own way
    and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,

    14 then you will find your joy in the LORD,
    and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land
    and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”
    The mouth of the LORD has spoken.

  98. Maz said

    Jared: Great post. And the bit that sticks out to me is ”….who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.”
    Ofcourse they want the ten commandments out of the way, because they do not want to be reminded of their sin and depravity. They don’t want the light of Gods Word shining on their sin and revealing it for what it is. Vile and filthy. They love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.

  99. John said

    Ed, as long as there are bullies and report cards to worry about, cute girls and boys to fantasize about, killed classmates, and tests to try and pass, there will always be prayer in schools regardless of what public rules may come to pass.

  100. Ed said

    True John. Public prayer has been smashed so hard by the far left that kids who want to have a prayer in public at school would be imprisioned.

  101. Barney said

    My comments to Ed in parentheses:

    I have seen too many demands of removal of the 10 commandments from public areas…

    (But the issue that the ACLU concerns itself with is establishment of religion, Ed, not the constitutionality of the Ten Commandments)

    There are pictures of the ark.


    There is wood pulled from the ark.

    (Show us some, please?)

    There are eye witness testimonies to the ark.


    Tell me that you believe in evolution, which no one has seen macro-evolution, but chide me for believing in an ark that has evidence?”

    (No, I chide you for obfuscating the real issues and ask you again to provide us the reason you think someone has found Noah’s Ark.)

    I say we are more free today to practice our religion than we ever were thanks in some part to the ACLU.

  102. Ed said

    ACLU is against the establishment or established religion? So they are against me because I have a belief and am willing to share it? They are against the founding fathers of this nation becuase they wanted freedom to worship, not fredom from worship?
    There are at least 4 books written on Noahs ark. Each have photo’s and eyewitness accouts. Of course, that was written by some “creationist lier” who is wanting to dupe the whole world.
    Actually, I am not nearly as free to be a Christian in this country because of the ACLU. My child cannot hold a prayer at his school because of the ACLU. Need I go on? Most here can attest to some way that the ACLU has limited or denyed thier open practice of the Christian faith.

  103. Barney said

    Ed, you have a misunderstanding of the work the ACLU does. I suggest contacting them and asking them about these issues, or at least going to their website and reading that info.

    Which books, Ed?

  104. Ed said

    You know, I am at work, by myself wating for paperwork to pass through. I do not have titles on hand. Look up Noah’s Ark in amazon.

  105. John said

    I am rather out of touch with all that goes on within todays schools, but I used to read the Christian Bible and Torah in my classes when I was in highschool, once debated the case for human evolution with another classmate who was promoting the case for Christian Creationism[this was an actual assignment our teacher gave us in my English Class, we were each given a turn at a podium in front of the whole class and then each answered students questions], and from what I hear, our local school kids still pray in a ring around the schools flagpole[I’m not sure why they do it there.Perhaps it’s a patriotic thing…?] and start off the school football games with a public Christian prayer. There does not seem to be any restriction on Christianity here, but then this is a very tiny town surrounded by other tiny towns[more like villages] in the country. Things of this matter must be very different within big, far off cities and states. But it doesn’t seem to matter out here, if it’s any consolation to you.

  106. Ed said

    I have found that the more rural you get, the less ACLU has effect. The more urban and more vocal the “freedom from religion” folks you get, the more you see this kind of thing.

  107. F. L. A. said

    Too bad that the rural areas in Florida, and the rest of America[and the whole world?] are rapidly disappearing.

  108. Mike S said

    Amen F.L.A.!!

  109. F. L. A. said

    I got an amen?
    [I have to put this on John’s calender for posterity, along with the times me and Maz agreed on things!]

  110. Paul said

    Unfortunately, I fear that most Christians would answer that they never really thought about it. We are often guilty of proclaiming that the only thing that is eternal is our soul, but this is flat out wrong. 1 Corinthians 3 assures that Kingdom-worthy work is as eternal as our souls:

    By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Cor. 3:10-15)

    It is this sort of culture making—gold, silver, and costly stones—that we should be striving to build with. The Californication of wood, hay, and straw will burn and be revealed as the façade that it was. Let’s quit worrying about who is President or who isn’t. Our hope doesn’t lie there anyway. Christ has provided a golden opportunity for the Church to quit whining and bellyaching about our paper-mache political messiahs and get to work building for the True One. That is how we furnish the New Jerusalem: by making Christ’s spiritual Kingdom a physical reality for those in need.

  111. Paul said

    This is first part : While most people think they were casting their vote on Tuesday for political reasons, they were actually voting for cultural reasons. Although election seasons always spawn heavy words and light action, rarely have both campaigns offered so very little policy and so very much empty rhetoric. It goes to show that every rule has an exception: Apparently you can beat something with nothing. This is not to say that nearly a billion dollars—the amount spent funding the Obama campaign—is nothing. That’s definitely something, only 699 billion short of an economic bailout in fact. But that’s not what I’m talking about. It’s not the money that gave us the ObamaNation (has a nice one-term ring to it, doesn’t it?), though it certainly helped. No, what really put Obama in the White House is what the Red Hot Chili Peppers have termed “Californication:”[1] i.e. the Madison Avenue, hard-sell, skin-deep, image conscious, materialistic veneer that passes for substance in a flash, pop, bling, ready-in-seconds, soundbite world.

    Californication is really nothing new; it is a natural consequence of the worldview of the city of man, which is of course, humanism. If this election has done anything, it has revealed the sad truth that more Americans than we would like to admit really believe that government is the answer. And not just in some “solving political crises” way, but in a total, “womb-to-tomb” way. The ObamaNation was effectively “sold” to the American people in the same way that Procter & Gamble would sell laundry soap or dish detergent, the only difference being that these products actually work. The American people who bought into the $1 billion marketing machine of the ObamaNation were voting for a commodity, not a political idea.[2] They will soon realize that commodities, just like ideas, have consequences too.

  112. VB said

    Smething to pray about…

    From Wrongs Abounding, May Good yet More Abound
    by John Haldane
    November 07, 2008 Printer Friendly
    Social Conservatives in America would do well to consider recent events in the U.K.

    With U.S. commentators focused almost exclusively on the Presidential and Congressional elections, turning only to other matters as and when they seemed likely to influence the polling, it is unsurprising that recent events here in Britain have gone largely unremarked.

    Yet several apparently unconnected developments in the U.K. that occurred last week may contribute to a moment of some significance for social conservatives concerned about contemporary society and the quality of political, cultural, and corporate leadership.

    I have in mind three events occurring on consecutive days in the U.K. and involving legislators, broadcasters, and bankers, respectively; more precisely the Westminster Parliament, the BBC, and Barclays Bank.

    On October 29th, the House of Lords considered and voted on amendments to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill. This marked the last stage of the passage through Parliament of the proposed legislation. Once the formality of Royal Assent is granted, the HFE Act will come into operation bringing with it provisions that only a few years ago would have been judged unthinkable.

    Among the worst of these measures are the creation for experimentation of animal-human hybrid embryos, the production of ‘savior siblings’, babies selected to provide genetic material for seriously ill relatives, and the removal in the provision of publicly funded fertility services of any reference to a child’s need for a father – the point of this last being to facilitate IVF treatment for lesbian couples.

    Further, the government chose to add a late provision allowing tissue for animal-human hybrids to be garnered from children whose parents give permission, from people who lack the “mental capacity” to give consent, and from anyone who has previously donated samples to hospitals for medical research but can no longer be traced.

    Collectively and along with other aspects of the legislation this represents an unparalleled assault on human dignity, on respect for persons as ends, on the principle of consent, and on the integrity of the father-mother-child family relationship. It may seem shocking that a country that led the world in the recognition of civil rights and constitutional law should now turn those instruments against the innocent and in violation of fundamental human goods. However, it may be less surprising if one also remembers that Britain has the highest abortion rate of any Western European country, and almost the highest in the world–higher than the U.S.

    The day after the passage of the cloning bill, October 30th, the Director General of the BBC, Mark Thompson, met with members of its governing body in an unscheduled crisis meeting. Britain’s national public broadcasting corporation, funded out of a compulsory TV license fee, was forced into confronting the fact that two of its leading presenters, Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand, had made and broadcast obscene and harassing calls to a 78 year-old. Their victim was Andrew Sachs, well-known and fondly recalled as the actor who played the Spanish waiter ”Manuel” in Fawlty Towers. In the first of these calls, Ross announces that Brand ”f—ed your granddaughter!” and in a later call Brand himself sings ”I had sex with your granddaughter. But it was consensual and she wasn’t menstrual, it was consensual lovely sex”. In between times they speculated that in reaction to this news Sachs might hang himself.

    It is worth adding that Ross is the BBC’s highest paid employee, earning 6 million ponds a year, while Brand is the character who in hosting this year’s MTV Video Music Awards in Hollywood described President Bush as ”that retard and cowboy fella . . . who in England wouldn’t be trusted with a pair of scissors”.

    Every day that Ross and Brand have entered and exited BBC Broadcasting House in London they have walked past an inscription on the wall of the foyer. It is in Latin but translates as follows:

    To Almighty God: This shrine of the arts, music, and literature is dedicated by the first Governors in the year of our Lord 1931, John Reith being Director General. It is their prayer that good seed sown will produce a good harvest, that everything offensive to decency and hostile to peace will be expelled, and that the nation will incline its ear to those things which are lovely, pure, and of good report and thus pursue the path of wisdom and virtue.

    I doubt that Ross and Brand have ever read this, or if it were pointed it might well have been in derision. It is hard to imagine what the current Director General thinks of the values affirmed in this lapidary inscription, though having been educated by the Jesuits at Stonyhurst he might well recognise the echo of the words of St Paul in Philippians 4:8. How again, and how far, a once noble nation seems to have fallen.

    The next day, October 31st, Barclays Bank announced that rather than follow the pattern of other major U.K. banks and avail itself of capitalisation afforded by the Government in response to the credit crisis, it had chosen to secure its balances by raising money from sovereign investment funds and royal families of Qatar and Abu Dhabi.

    U.S. readers unfamiliar with Barclays as a banking outlet may yet have heard of the ”Barclays Center” under construction in Brooklyn. It is planned as a large sports, entertainment, and luxury suites venue which will also serve as home to the Brooklyn Nets basketball team. Beyond New York the bank is represented in the U.S. through its Global Investors department headquartered in San Francisco, and by the fact that over 3 million Americans hold credit cards issued by it for a variety of U.S. partners. So the behaviour of Barclays should be of more than simply foreign interest.

    While U.K. taxpayers may feel some relief at a reduction in the expected Treasury banking bailout it is worth reflecting on the impact and motives of Barclays’ decision. The terms of the Saudi Arabian deal are less generous to Barclays than U.K. Government support, but the latter comes with significant constraints. First, it requires that banks halt cash bonuses for bank board members and restrict shareholder dividends in the current year. Second, it requires that lending be made available in support of small and middle-sized U.K. businesses. Barclays’ choice of independence is also made more comfortable by the fact that part of what it will provide to Quatar and Abu Dhabi investors is tax deductible, so U.K. taxpayers will be subsidising the deal and hence supporting the bank in any case.

    In the context of domestic recession, with businesses failing, unemployment rising and the main political parties favouring policies of collective national reconstruction, Barclays’ decision is in marked contrast to a long-standing British tradition of solidarity and of ”troubles shared.”

    Three days, three institutions, three decisions; each is in a different sphere: reproduction and family life, public broadcasting and entertainment, borrowing and lending. While there are no logical connections between these, nevertheless they represent moves away from traditional British values of respect, decency, and social responsibility; and each expresses a condition that has eaten through the fabric of the country, eroding institutions, communities, and families. It has no single name but it combines individualism, materialism, and hedonism in a consequentialist outlook that instrumentalizes relationships and even human lives in pursuit of the gratification of preferences.

    In one sense the temporal conjunction of instances is accidental; but the rapidity of their succession and their manifest grossness may be providential in attracting attention to a pervasive malaise. North American readers accustomed to look with regard across the Atlantic Ocean may be moved to pity, but they would do better to consider the extent to which their own societies are moving in the same directions.

    More positively, it may be that populaces that have tended to be indifferent to corruption in respect of the treatment of innocent life may now be lifted to greater moral consciousness through their reaction to indecencies of other kinds in other areas. Surprising as it may seem, it may yet prove that the beginnings of a U.K. reversal of the wrongs done in regard to bioethical matters began in the days following the passing of the HFE bill, in reaction to the deeds of broadcasters and bankers.

    John Haldane is Professor of Philosophy in the University of St Andrews, Scotland, Visiting Professor at the Institute for the Psychological Sciences in Virginia, and Vice-President of the Catholic Union of Great Britain. He is a Senior Fellow of the Witherspoon Institute and sits on the Editorial Board of Public Discourse.

    Copyright 2008 the Witherspoon Institute. All rights reserved.

  113. Paul said

    The Word, in the book of Daniel, shows us that God can “change the heart of a king”! We should now continually PRAY for our president. God changed King Nebuchadnezzar’s heart He can surely do a work in Obama’s. God Is Great, God Is Good…Go God!

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