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Does Obama truly represent Black voters?

Posted by truthtalklive on October 30, 2008

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Today Stu and his guest  Kevin McCullough  with Town Hall.com he is also a radio talk show host “Baldwin/McCullough ‘Xtreme’ Radio” ask this question to see what you have to say. He is the author of the best selling book: MuscleHead Revoluion: Overturning Liberalism with Commonsense Thinking and the BRAND NEW book: The KIND of Man EVERY Man SHOULD Be!. We will also play some clips from a few days ago where we post-recorded a few shows after the show was over. Tune in today at 5pm (EST) and call in at 1-866-34-truth(87884)! As always thanks for listening and we look foward to your comments!

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Why I (A Black Man) Can’t Vote For Obama

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129 Responses to “Does Obama truly represent Black voters?”

  1. Maz said

    Here we go again! (YAWN)!!

  2. Someone who disagrees with MAZ said

    What do you suppose they talk about Maz how wonderful the weather is out side. Come on black america needs to know the truth. I know alot has been done on this issue but, What if a new listener who will vote for Obama Stumbles on the show and hears the truth on Obama and what he stands for and it’s aginst what the new listener believes in well he just lost another vote. This man does not need to be in The White House you think this country is messed up now just wait it will be 100 times mor messed up if he gets it. So (YAWN) all you want I doubt it is going o change anything!

  3. Jared said

    Why should we care if he represents Black voters? He doesn’t represent those who have been washed in the blood of Christ and given his righteousness. Does the color of my skin change this?

  4. Uneasy said

    Jared,

    Because so many born again black voters are choosing Obama, without a valid reason to do so. Many many have chosen race over faith, but won’t say it, and this is sad.

    I am all for a black man as president, but NOT this one.

  5. Jared said

    Maz got it right! (YAWN)!! Lets talk about how skin color only matters to the Atheists and Darwin lovers. Those who have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ love their brothers and sisters regardless of the amount of pigment they have in their skin, how young or old they are, or how different they may fiscally appear. It is the haters of God that think humans are less human if they are too young, the wrong color, to old, or have a little different appearance!

    That should get things going!

  6. Jared said

    Physically appear. Sorry. I am not as fast as spell checker thing!

  7. Jared said

    Uneasy … I think the short answer is …. he will if he wins. They might not like it, but they will have him.

  8. Maz said

    Uneasy: If black Christians are voting for him simply because he is black, I would question their Christianity….first they are making a racist vote…..rather than choosing a white man…..and second, they are not doing it according to Gods values. The most important things any President should have is integrity, competence, and a sense of righteousness and justice. NOT HIS COLOUR.

  9. abc's said

    Does John McCain truly represent black voters?

  10. Maz said

    Abc’s: One could also ask, does Obama truly represent white voters?

    I guess this is an American thing?

    Supposing this was a black WOMAN?

  11. Maz said

    Truth Talk: Did the question change or am I going senile?

  12. Jared said

    Maz

    I disagree … The most important thing a President can have is humility … understanding his position before a Holy, Just, Loving, Merciful, Long Suffering, Righteous God. Then the rest comes naturally. Look at our example .. the Lord Jesus Christ.

  13. Jared said

    If the man has a heart of Stone he will act like it. If the man has a heart of flesh he will act like it.

    I want the man with the heart of flesh given to him by our Gracious God.

    But God’s will be done!

  14. Maz said

    Jared: Yes, that is important too.

  15. Jared said

    Hope tomorrows question is better than this one!

  16. Jared said

    Excuse me. Monday’s … the second day of the week … after the Lord’s day!

  17. Natalie said

    Why do so many assume that a black person casting a vote for Obama has chosen race over truth? I am a born again, black female who chooses Obama based on the issues, not his race. Those who WILL choose him because he is black will likely equal those who will NOT choose him because he is black. So what’s all the speculation on race about?

  18. Brian said

    It is absurd to think that any candidate represents the totality of any group. There are several reasons why any candidate would offend, or in any other way not represent a group of which the candidate is a member of. It is interesting to me (not really) that so many people feel that Black America is voting lock stock and barrel for Barak simply because he is black. It could not be because they are Democratic in their political leanings could it? When Jessie Jackson ran, and when Al Sharpton ran neither garnered overwhelming support from Black Americans. If Hilary were running instead of Barak would she be getting the vote of all women merely because of her sex. I don’t think she would have much success with traditional Republican women, because of ideological differences. This whole debate is foolishness. The issue of moral standings may have some standing with many Christians, but as is much of the case much of the time, those candidates who may (I stress that word) have a moral high ground often ask for Black American support when in tight races, but as soon as those races are decided a return to a marginalization of the issues that mean much to Black Americans occurs. It is interesting to me that the Republican party and many of its proponents simply feel that Black Americans should wholeheartedly abandon the political party that has been widely viewed as most helpful to them over the last 40 years to embrace a party that still portrays itself as a party of conservatism, that most Black Americans view as blanket racism. Please understand that as a graduate from Liberty University (and proudly so) and a student in graduate school at Liberty University (yes the one in Lynchburg), I am educated by some of the best defenders of the faith in Theology, and religion. I reject out of hand the charge or the ascertion that to be a good Christian one has to vote Republican now or at any time! In fact I think it borders on grave sin to suggests that God favors one of these candidates over the other. Barak has confessed publically that he is saved, I have heard of no such confession from John McCain, yet he is trumpeted as someone that God would favor, (emphasis on your station). Finally let me say that this election has me proud to be an American. Right now, as a Black American I have the absolute right to vote how I wish, for the candidate that I want to, based on what I feel is most important to ME and my family first and my neightbors and friends secondly and finally for my country. (Before that statement is judged too harshly, that is the position ideologically of a Federalist which both John McCain and Sarah Palin assert they are) I am proud that a Black American has risen from abject poverty to potentially become the leader of the free world. I am proud that he worked his way through school. I am proud that he has associations that seem questionable (but then again by our standards Jesus couldn’t run look who He hung out with prostitutes, politicians, and terrorists (Judas Iscariot was a zealot)). I think these associations will help him first to understand people and be able to deal with them through negotiation first before war. I am proud that he understands that to cut the taxes on the rich is tremendously unfair (yet that is what Bush did, and what McCain said was wrong when Bush did it, but now McCain defends and everyone is calling wealth redistribution. Strange that Barak isn’t even seeking to return the rates all the way to where they were). I am proud that finally trickle down economics is going to be and is being exposed for what Bush’s father said when Reagan rolled it out, It’s Voodoo Economics! In a nutshell I am proud of Barak, and if I were orange I’d vote for him and Biden before I’d vote for McCain and Palin. So for me and mine, he DOES represent Black America, and every Black American that he resonates with on this level should vote for him, and most white Americans too.

  19. Stanley said

    FIRST TIME EVER

    I agree with Maz. Yawn.

  20. Natalie said

    You might yawn, but the show today was completely lop-sided! The errors needed to be addressed.

  21. uneasy said

    Natalie said : “Why do so many assume that a black person casting a vote for Obama has chosen race over truth? I am a born again, black female who chooses Obama based on the issues, not his race. Those who WILL choose him because he is black will likely equal those who will NOT choose him because he is black. So what’s all the speculation on race about?”

    Elaborate on those issues you are in favor with, and why you, as a Christian, favor them. This is what I have NOT ONCE heard someone, who says what you said, actually do. I repeat, not once, and I have listened, and I have asked.
    Thank you.

    PS – It would be fair to ask me to do the same about McCain, but I am not voting for McCain because of his view on the issues, I am voting for McCain because of Obama’s view on the issues.

  22. Natalie said

    The Bush tax cuts did not work. They need to be rolled back.

    The Iraq war needs to end. Lives are still being lost and we don’t know what we are trying to “win.”

    The way campaign dollars are raised should be carefully scrutinized and I like how that was a part of Obama’s platform at the beginning of his campaign.

    The issues above are what captured my vote earlier this year.

    Additionally:
    Health care needs to be adjusted; the Obama plan isn’t the best, but the McCain plan is worse!

    Lobbying has gotten out of control and I like how Obama calls them out.

    Sarah Palin is extremely unprepared.

    Abortion is not an issue that can be legislated. I want a president who doesnt propose to “stop abortion” when he knows that he can not. I do not expect to ever want an abortion, but my God is a God of choice. The God of the Bible lets us CHOOSE.

  23. Pammy said

    Can you look at this question from a different perspective.

    Are whites voting for McCain because he is white? Or are they voting for him because he is mature, fought a war, married a rich lady – represents what the world sees as okay.

    Remember we are all called to test every spirit – and indeed by their fruit we will know them.

    We are somehow shaped by the choices we make and the community we grew up in.

    Obama is 50% white and 50% black and has lived in the American culture all his life.

    If the church we all attend reflects a majority I am certain that our vote will reflect to a lesser or greater extent the canditate that reflects our views.

    On a different note what if by chance we had a “a red indian” in this race with thought provoking policies and a reflective approach to how this great country could dwell together in unity and peace and not having one race trying to oudo the other and to top it all a bible believing Christian filled with the Holy Spirit- Hmmmm I wonder how the blak race and the white race would vote.

    The mandate is that we pray for our leaders so that we may have peace in our land.

    I don’t agree with all of Senator Obama’s policies and I don’t agree with all of Senator McCain’s policies but I get a great joy and peace when I listen to Senator Obama speaking compared with Senator McCain. I just pray that the right man gets elected.

  24. uneasy said

    Allowing choice is already there, and as you said, it cannot be stopped. But why make it monumentally easier for people to make that ‘choice’. I put choice in quotes because most of the choices to kill a baby are uninformed, pressured decisions directed and facilitated by abominations like Planned Parenthood. Yet, you, as a Christian, are in favor of taking the parents out of the picture, among many other plans that will make that bad choice easier and the right choice harder to defend.

    Abortion aside, the Bush economy was great for 6 years until the democrats got a hold of Congress. The democrats are responsible for not nipping the Fannie and Freddie fiasco in the bud when they were warned, and had the chance to do something about it.

    Neither of these candidates can bring this phantom change we need, and you and I both know that.

    I appreciate your answers, and they were actual answers, from a political standpoint. I still have yet to hear answers from a Biblical standpoint, though, and that is what I would like someone to be able to offer.

    So, addressing what was said this afternoon on the show about the small businesses having to raise prices to be able to afford to pay the taxes. Does that not concern you? My parents are leftists, and I know how they are going to vote, yet they are adamant about their disdain for Wal-Mart for putting mom and pop establishments out of business. How is this same thing not going to absolutely explode when mega corps like Wal-Mart can afford those tax increases, yet Local City Hardware store cannot. Local City Hardware will have to FURTHER raise its prices above Wal-Mart’s already low prices, driving away business in the process. Only mega corps will survive, and when they are all that’s left, they will have accomplished their goal, and will raise their prices as well (blaming the increase on Obama’s tax plan, as in a few years, people will finally get it. By then, though, he has his foothold, and somehow the media will blame the conservatives.)

    Ok, I am done rambling for a few minutes. Thank you, though, Natalie for finally proving that at least one Obama supporter, white or black, actually has the ability to answer with anything other than “Change”.

    I don’t agree, but I appreciate you posting.

  25. uneasy said

    “The mandate is that we pray for our leaders so that we may have peace in our land.”

    The greater mandate is that we humble ourselves, pray, seek His face, and turn from our wicked way. THEN, God will hear from heaven, forgive our national sin, and heal our land.

    America, as a nation, is running a million miles an hour in the opposite direction though, and the Church is running just slightly slower in that same direction.

  26. uneasy said

    “Abortion is not an issue that can be legislated.”

    One more thing. Is murder legislated? Are there laws against me going out and shooting someone?

    And if you tell me they are different, I hope you are able to fully explain how. According to your abortion section of the post, murder should be legalized 1) Because it can’t be legislated, and 2) God gave us freedom to choose.

    I agree God gave us the freedom to choose, and I have the absolute freedom to choose to murder someone, but 1) I know it is wrong, and 2) I will pay dearly for it.

    So the freedom of choice argument holds no water whatsoever in the abortion discussion. “It is her body” you may say. SO? and no, it is not her body. It is the baby’s body. And even if you could legitimately use that argument, why then is attempted suicide punishable? It is the person’s own body. Shouldn’t they have the choice to do with it what they will? Also, should I have the right to kill another person because they gave me a stomach virus? It is my body, after all, and that person did something to “inconvenience” my body.

    And the incest, rape, molestation argument is old hat and a red herring, as it addresses the incredibly vast minority of abortions.

    I agree there are soldiers dying, and perhaps for no good reason, but for every soldier that is dying for what MIGHT be a bad reason, how many babies are slaughtered for NO good reason in comparison. Thousands.

    Barak Obama will destroy the United States forever.

  27. Stanley said

    Well, we can all be happy that abortion is and will be legal, presumably for a long time.

  28. Bookert said

    I’m with you, Maz (also the first time ever). YAWN.

  29. Pammy said

    Uneasy – can you explain why one man would destroy the country FOREVER?
    Is your God small? Surely we serve a God who is awesome. I have read some of what you’ve stated above and I must say I am having great difficulty in understanding your point of view.

    I am a woman and I find it ridiculous that men are having a heated debate over this issue? Let it rest – Everyman a liar and God the Truth.

  30. Maz said

    Uneasy # 25 & #26. Great posts! I agree totally!!

  31. Maz said

    Thanks Bookert!! #28. Although I have to accept, as someone pointed out, that there may be people who have tuned into the radio programme for the first time and may want to comment on line. We will have to put up with the repetition for their sakes. It’s good to have some fresh people on here aswell.

    I don’t usually listen to any of the programmes, I read the comments and reply to them, as I don’t have a lot of time to listen, and I am on the other side of the Atlantic. (Getting really cold here, we had a lot of snow in London). But I have heard a lot of criticism about how Stu operates so I must listen for myself if the discussion is balanced.

  32. Maz said

    Thanks Bookert!! #28. Although I have to accept, as someone pointed out, that there may be people who have tuned into the radio programme for the first time and may want to comment on line. We will have to put up with the repetition for their sakes. It’s good to have some fresh people on here aswell.

    I don’t usually listen to any of the programmes, I read the comments and reply to them, as I don’t have a lot of time to listen, and I am on the other side of the Atlantic. (Getting really cold here, we had a lot of snow in London). But I have heard a lot of criticism about how Stu operates so I must listen for myself if the discussion is balanced.

  33. Maz said

    OOps!! Somehow that went through twice….don’t know why.

  34. Fred said

    Why in the heck is this discussion going on? Why should White America vote for John McCain? Does he represent White America? Stu, when are you going to have that discussion?

  35. Grant said

    Because, Fred, there aren’t the overwhelming majority of white voters voting for McCain. If there were, this would be an absolute landslide in favor of McCain. For this reason, it is apples and oranges.

    I don’t know the percentages, but I guarantee less than 10% of black voters will not vote for Obama. This cannot be said for white voters and McCain, for if it could, the election would already be over with, and Tuesday would be a mere formality.

    I agree, though, the whole topic has gone on too long. Especially when so many Americans are voting for their candidate, and do not even know why. (and I say this regarding both candidates)

    While I believe it is every person’s right to vote once they reach the appropriate age, I also believe it is every person’s privilege to drive at a certain age, but not without getting a license to do so. There should be a voting license that is to be renewed every two years. If you don’t pass, you don’t vote. I know, maybe a little extreme, but something to think about.

  36. Jared said

    Uneasy # 25 & #26. Great posts! I agree totally!!

    Except for the last line. Osama Barak can’t ruin the country forever. He can to untold damage as many of our presidents have, but God ultimately is sovereign and His will is always done. Look at how He changed the heart of Cyrus. Look at how the wickedness of slavery that was brought on by Darwin’s religion was stopped. Men think they are so powerful, but:

    Proverbs 16
    1The plans of the heart belong to man,
    But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
    2All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight,
    But the LORD weighs the motives.
    3Commit your works to the LORD
    And your plans will be established.
    4The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
    Even the wicked for the day of evil.
    5Everyone who is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD;
    Assuredly, he will not be unpunished.
    6By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for,
    And by the fear of the LORD one keeps away from evil.
    7When a man’s ways are pleasing to the LORD,
    He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.
    8Better is a little with righteousness
    Than great income with injustice.
    9The mind of man plans his way,
    But the LORD directs his steps.

    I hope God changes the direction of our Churches. Corporately, as churches, we are only a little behind the world.

  37. A said

    Everyone must go vote as their hearts lead them and quit demonizing those who vote differently then them. I am not at all threatened by those who vote differently than me. This is especially true since I know that God is in complete control. If my guy loses, my faith will not weaken and my God will not diminish in power.

    BTW, I find it inappropriate for two white men leading the discussion regarding the question “Does Obama truly represent Black voters?” I recognize when I am not at all qualified to lead certain discussions. The least that Stu could do is find a Black man or woman to join them in the studio. The better option would be to select another topic.

    Because of His Sacrifice…

  38. A said

    …than…

  39. Stanley said

    “There should be a voting license that is to be renewed every two years. If you don’t pass, you don’t vote. I know, maybe a little extreme, but something to think about.”

    I agree Grant.
    That way, no Palin supporters are allowed to vote.

  40. uneasy said

    Jared : “Except for the last line. Osama Barak can’t ruin the country forever. He can to untold damage as many of our presidents have, but God ultimately is sovereign and His will is always done.”

    By himself, he can’t ruin it. But remember, the people demanded a king when God said they didn’t need one. They kept demanding, and ultimately, God said ‘Fine, have your king’ and the reaped what they sowed. (Loose paraphrasing. haha)

    Also, the Roman Empire imploded.

    I agree totally that God’s Will will be done. He will do what it takes for Him to get the glory. That may mean allowing America to fall to its knees, to get us off of our high horse. Maybe not, but maybe so.

    To Pammy : My God is the God who can save to the uttermost. The God who took the form of a man, in order to die on a cross for our sin. As I mentioned just above, He is also a God who does allow people to choose, and peoples’ choices can destroy them. And it is not like God hasn’t warned us over and over, so one cannot place the blame for the continuing spiral on God. The blame is squarely on man, and man’s decisions to depend on everything in the world except God Almighty. People are looking to this man as some kind of American messiah, and there is no more dangerous way for one man to view another man. (I know, but leave the innuendo idea out. I didn’t mean it that way. lol).

    So, that he, one man, can destroy the US? No, perhaps not, but if decisions are left in his hand, our current pace toward a fall like that of the Roman Empire will accelerate drastically.

    and to Stanley : Troll much?

  41. Pammy said

    Easy-#40 (I know, but leave the innuendo idea out. I didn’t mean it that way. lol).

    If we are to count tne number of ways we have allowed our thoughts, words and deeds to determine how we live our life no man on earth will stand.

    I thank God that he sent his son Jesus Christ to save us and there is no other name by which we can be saved. No other “American Messiah”

    Pray without ceasing – God is on the throne.

    PS: Just for the record I am only moved by the word of God, not by man’s word or action. I can only reflect what you write in the light of the Gospel.

  42. Brad said

    Natalie, some of the stuff in your post is so bad, I feel the need to address it:

    The Bush tax cuts did not work. They need to be rolled back.

    Define “work.” I know that I paid less taxes and kept more money after they were enacted, so for me and my family, they sure “worked.” If we roll them back, as you suggest, are you then in favor of paying more taxes, at levels that were in effect before the tax cuts?

    The Iraq war needs to end. Lives are still being lost and we don’t know what we are trying to “win.”

    Lives are lost every day, in every city, nationwide. Do we quit trying here at home, too? I do wish the war would end soon, and do wish it would be financed with more of Iraq’s money than ours, but to pull out now would be disastrous.

    The way campaign dollars are raised should be carefully scrutinized and I like how that was a part of Obama’s platform at the beginning of his campaign.

    There was a lot that was part of his platform at the beginning – accepting public financing to level the playing field, for example. Notice how that was at the beginning of his campaign. As I’m sure you’re aware, he changed his mind on that. Do you still want to carefully scrutinize how they’re raised? And if so, what do you want to carefully scrutinize, that you inherently think Obama is doing OK, that McCain is not, exactly?

    The issues above are what captured my vote earlier this year.

    I figured as much, unfortunately.

    Additionally:
    Health care needs to be adjusted; the Obama plan isn’t the best, but the McCain plan is worse!

    Why – tell me why. What is it you like so much about the Obama plan. Please explain the terms and details so I can understand. Also, please explain the terms and details you so dislike about the McCain plan.

    Lobbying has gotten out of control and I like how Obama calls them out.

    You like how Obama calls out lobbyists? I smell uninformed voter who’s made up their mind based on good speeches, and not facts. If you think, for one second, that Obama isn’t and hasn’t been affected by lobbyists as much as anyone else, your head is truly in the sand.

    Sarah Palin is extremely unprepared.

    Specifically, why? Please respond with actual facts and details, and not political rhetoric. Let’s see, she has been governor of a state, which was good enough for Bill Clinton, if I recall… Has Obama ran a state? Nope – although he’s helped “organize” communities…

    Abortion is not an issue that can be legislated. I want a president who doesnt propose to “stop abortion” when he knows that he can not. I do not expect to ever want an abortion, but my God is a God of choice. The God of the Bible lets us CHOOSE.

    Proving further a non-Christian viewpoint which you hold. Does God let us choose what we wish to do? Yes. Does that mean that any choice is good? No. Using your logic, why don’t we legalize murder? Just b/c it’s against the law hasn’t stopped people from murdering – after all, God is a God of choice, and people still CHOOSE to murder, so why not just make it legal? I never expect to ever want to murder, but at least I have the choice, right?

    I know you may not see how your logic breaks down completely (which it does), but at least seriously give it a try.

  43. uneasy said

    Pammy said : “I thank God that he sent his son Jesus Christ to save us and there is no other name by which we can be saved. No other “American Messiah””

    I agree 100%. I wish more people knew the same, and would quit looking to politicians with googly eyes, thinking that they can “fix” things.

  44. Maz said

    Uneasy: Good point. Are American Christians putting their faith in the next President or in God?

  45. Jared said

    Uneasy and Maz:

    Great posts!

    Now we are getting somewhere. We need to do as Ezra did, worship our God in humility, and remember politics and presidents are under God’s authority, regardless of how wicked they may appear to be. When the church starts to worship God again, instead of primarily worrying about social clubs, do gooder groups, and entertainment facilities, then we will see God go before us like is so evidenced in history and as shown in God’s word! I didn’t say we shouldn’t be doing good work … but the church has the order wrong. Corporate Worship comes first … then the rest will come naturally as God spiritually blesses His people. God made it so blatantly obvious and simple and we just don’t get it.

  46. Jared said

    That worship should be in Spirit and Truth. Not just Spirit and not just Truth …. but both.

  47. Grant said

    Maz – #44 and Uneasy – #43

    If America puts its faith in a man, rather than in God, we will reap what we sow.

    People have put faith in government for far too long, and we have paid for it, and America has been slipping and slipping. But as we slip, what do we do? We continue to put our faith in the next government that is to come along. This time, though, it is much more evident than I can remember in my lifetime. People are following this man, and many of these followers carry a Christian nametag. We can’t realistically vote for God as president Tuesday, but we sure can vote to keep the lipstick of “change” from attempting to disguise the “pig” of socialism. We don’t need the lipstick or the pig, at least not the kind of lipstick offered by Obama.

    I have purposed in my heart, though, that if he is elected, I will pray for him and respect him as our president. Just as David gave place to wicked Saul. Just as Paul and Peter told us to do when wicked Nero was emperor at the time they told us to be subject unto the higher powers and ordinances. I will not compromise the Word of God, and I won’t go against the Word of God, but in all else, I have to respect the authority placed over me…else how can God trust me to be in authority over the things he has placed under me?

    Acts 5:29
    Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

    Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

    Proverbs 3:5-7 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

    2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

  48. abc's said

    Grant

    Do you think that George W. did a good job as president?

  49. Stanley said

    Don’t answer Grant, its a trick question.

    If you say yes, everyone will ridicule you for being stupid.
    If you say no, then everyone will call you un-American.

  50. abc's said

    Stanley

    I didn’t mean it that way, but your response sure is funny.

  51. F. L. A. said

    Jared, you sound like a bigot in post#5.
    As evolutionists John and I[And other evolutionists and Atheists that are on the site here, I am willing to bet.] do not judge the worth of people by such standards.
    It is alright to have fantasies, but be careful not to get too lost within them[Huge sharp-toothed grin].

  52. Grant said

    My answer is a non event anyway, as I clearly said we have put our faith in government far too long, meaning George W, Slick Willie, George Sr., Reagan, Carter, Ford, and on and on.

    We do know, as was pointed out earlier, that the economy under Bush was fine until the liberals got control of congress.

    But do I think he did a good job? Compared to his dad and Reagan, not by a long shot.

  53. Grant said

    But, and I will add, I am not voting for Bush.

  54. Stanley said

    I’m taking John Stewart’s job when he retires.

  55. abc's said

    http://currencythoughts.com/2008/08/19/how-the-us-economy-performed-under-democrat-and-republican-presidents/

  56. Stanley said

    Nice link ABC.

  57. Grant said

    Good article, yes, but I am curious. Since Congress has much more impact on the economy than the president could ever hope to have, who controlled Congress during the up times and the down times? (disclaimer, this is not a challenge question. I really want to see and know, and do not, at the present, have time to search. I may look more this weekend.)

    I would think this is what it would boil down to, as the Congress makes the decisions.

    Regardless, though, if economy is what drives you, that is your choice.

  58. Maz said

    Grant: ”If America puts its faith in a man, rather than in God, we will reap what we sow.”

    That is absolutely true.

    Israel wanted a man to be King over them so they chose Saul……taller than anyone else….but WHO DID GOD CHOOSE?….a young shepherd boy named David, who was anointed to be king long before he actually came to the throne.
    David was a worshipper aswell as a warrior. And He LOVED GOD with all his heart.

  59. Kash said

    Uneasy says:
    “Abortion aside, the Bush economy was great for 6 years until the democrats got a hold of Congress. The democrats are responsible for not nipping the Fannie and Freddie fiasco in the bud when they were warned, and had the chance to do something about it.”
    and
    “We do know, as was pointed out earlier, that the economy under Bush was fine until the liberals got control of congress.”

    THe economy was NOT fine until 2006, and the democrats won a SLIGHT majority that was not enough to counteract fierce partisan opposition to everything they tried to do, including Bush vetoes (like vetoing expansion of health care to children, otherwise known as SCHIP). Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were symptoms of the problems, not the cause. The current economic crises is much more complex than “Bill Clinton did it!” or “George Bush did it!”. (Although I do find it incredibly audacious for Republicans to blame the Democrats for anything after they had 6 years of complete control, during which time the wealth gap grew, scandals in Washington were rife, and two wars were started that have bled massive amounts of money out of our economy into China because of the deficit). The financial crisis was caused by “gambling” on the part of financial institutions that the housing bubble would never burst, and packaging and trading off debt until any actual money behind all of the wheeling and dealing became impossible to pin down. Read about credit default swaps and you will understand a little bit of what a complex, greed driven, liquidity nightmare all of this has become.

    And for goodness sakes, why is it that some of you are so against government spending when they try to help people, like welfare and health care, but are so FOR government spending when they are bombing people or giving breaks to big corporations. How is that Christ-like? Or did Jared make a Freudian slip when he said, “Corporate Worship comes first”??? (That’s a joke, I know he meant corporate in the general sense) And how is what happened at Abu Ghraid Christ like?

    And why, if you think that government is so corrupt and inept, do you vote for the party that expanded government into your emails and phone calls and deathbed decisions?

    Last but not least, when Obama’s campaign started, there was discussion that he wasn’t “Black enough” to win the black vote. Does anyone else see the irony?

    Human nature is human nature. The black people that vote for Obama just because he is black won’t outnumber the white people that will vote for McCain just because he is white. Hopefully, those two groups will cancel each other out and this election will be decided on the issues, regardless of who wins.

  60. Maz said

    F.L.A: #51. Yes, I tend to agree there. We cannot generalise, some atheists and evolutionists are not concerned about skin colour, but do seem to be concerned more about the fact that we originally came from apes.

  61. Kash said

    Brad,
    Since you claim to be entirely consistent on abortion: do you think we should outlaw in vitro fertilization? Hundreds of “surplus” embryos are created for every successful term pregnancy. Does that mean that anyone who undergoes in vitro fertilization is a baby killer?

  62. Kash said

    “Israel wanted a man to be King over them so they chose Saul……taller than anyone else….but WHO DID GOD CHOOSE?….a young shepherd boy named David, who was anointed to be king long before he actually came to the throne.
    David was a worshipper aswell as a warrior. And He LOVED GOD with all his heart.”

    And he had multiple wives and concubines. And he arranged to have the husband of a woman he desired killed. What mattered to God was David’s heart, which only God truly knew, since David’s actions often appeared ‘heartless’.

    So explain to me how Obama can’t have a heart for God and still want to keep abortion safe, rare, and legal.

  63. Brad said

    Kash, nice try on changing the subject, but no go. I have talked clearly and consistently about the topic of abortion. We can go on many tangents, as most people wish to try and change the subject, but I won’t do so.

    My opinions on abortion stand.

  64. Grant said

    Kash, for the record, Solomon had the many wives and concubines, not David.

    And David, yes, he royally messed up (no pun intended) with Bathsheba, and he spent most of the rest of his life watching his children killed, and running for his life.

    He eventually repented, and came back to the realization that he was much better off with God in control, rather than himself.

    and Obama wants abortion to be rare?

    Let’s make bank robberies rare…ok, banks are to open their vaults and leave the keys in the front door…this way we can cut down on the number of bank robberies, by granting anyone passing by the opportunity. That will cut down the robberies. Now, we are only making it easier to get in for those few people who really need the money. Let’s be clear about that. Oh, and it is so much safer now, as you don’t need explosives to blow the vault, and you won’t have police trying to gun you down.

  65. Maz said

    Kash: How can you compare King David who was ‘after Gods own heart’ and Obama?

  66. Maz said

    Grant: Actually David did have many wives and several concubines.

  67. Grant said

    Maz : ok, I retract that part then. my bad.

  68. Kash said

    David was married to Abigail, Ahinoam, Michal (for a time, until Saul gave her to someone else after she helped David escape Saul), Bathsheba, to name a few. Read 1 Samuel.

    Brad, my point is simply to say that we all have different places where we draw the line of what is murder and what is a medical procedure, so it hardly is consistent to compare abortion to first degree manslaughter and say that if one is legal, the other should be also.

    And as I have said MANY times on this site, I think trying to overturn Roe v Wade is not the best way to fight abortion, just the easiest and most convenient if you don’t want to actually get out there and make a difference in people’s lives in such a way that maybe a woman wouldn’t find herself in a position where she felt like her only option was to terminate the pregnancy. If a single woman finds herself pregnant by her boyfriend, and he doesn’t want her to have it, and she has no means to support herself AND carry the baby to term and take care of it, what sort of things are going to influence her decision to have the baby? Whether or not there are government programs to help her and her baby survive. Things like welfare and health care.

  69. Kash said

    Kash: How can you compare King David who was ‘after Gods own heart’ and Obama?

    I’m just pointing out that all of you who keep saying, “You can tell a Christian by their fruit” meaning: Obama can’t really be a Christian because he supports a woman’s right to choose, that if you had judged David by his “fruit” you might have SERIOUSLY misjudged him. As God himself says: “The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”

    And no one knows the heart of anyone else, yet their are a lot of people on this site claiming to know Obama’s heart better than he himself does.

  70. Grant said

    “And as I have said MANY times on this site, I think trying to overturn Roe v Wade is not the best way to fight abortion, just the easiest and most convenient if you don’t want to actually get out there and make a difference in people’s lives in such a way that maybe a woman wouldn’t find herself in a position where she felt like her only option was to terminate the pregnancy.”

    There are Crisis Pregnancy centers that try to do this, but they are absolutely lambasted by Planned Parenthood, plus they aren’t funded by your and my tax dollars like Planned Parenthood is. You look at that abomination of an organization’s website, and they (with teeth) lash out at these Crisis Pregnancy centers.

    Planned Parenthood is one of the worst, if not the worst, things that has come along, and Obama wants to empower them. Why is he not supporting Crisis Pregnancy Centers, who do everything they can to prevent abortions, instead of an organization that PROMOTES abortions like they are blue-light specials?

  71. Maz said

    Kash: So why doesn’t Obama make this help available through the government?

  72. Maz said

    Kash: There is a difference between Davids sin because of his weakness for women (particularly Bath Sheba) and a President making a law to make it legal for abortion…or even a limited abortion law. David repented of his sin…..Obama will be doing this because he believes in it.

  73. Kash said

    Maz,
    Obama IS for offering health care to everyone and has a history of supporting “entitlement” programs such as welfare, which is why people call him “socialist” and accuse him of wanting to redistribute wealth (you know, like Jesus told the rich man to do).

    “Planned Parenthood is one of the worst, if not the worst, things that has come along, and Obama wants to empower them. Why is he not supporting Crisis Pregnancy Centers, who do everything they can to prevent abortions, instead of an organization that PROMOTES abortions like they are blue-light specials?”

    Do YOU volunteer at a Crisis Pregnancy Center? Have YOU given money to one? I have personally counseled young women NOT to have abortions, and support our local crisis pregnancy center. Bush promised with his faith-based initiative to fund CPCs, but didn’t keep his promise.

    Planned parenthood is not opposed to Crisis Pregnancy Centers per se, but the misleading information SOME of them provide. There are plenty of reasons to counsel women against abortion without using false and disproven “data”.

    Planned parenthood also provides low cost maternity care to pregnant women, and low cost birth control. As such they prevent many abortions. Just like workers at Crisis Pregnancy Centers, there are a wide variety of people who work for Planned Pregnancy and most do not think abortion is a preferred method of birth control.

    People who are against abortion need to investigate WHY women might choose to have one, and work to address THOSE issues instead of trying to criminalize and demonize doctors and women.

  74. Maz said

    Kash: ”Bush promised with his faith-based initiative to fund CPCs, but didn’t keep his promise.”

    It will be interesting to see whether you will have to put Obama’s name where you put Bush, when his term is over.
    Why provide help for women NOT to have abortions and also legislate for them to have them aswell. Is that a double standard?

  75. Kash said

    “Why provide help for women NOT to have abortions and also legislate for them to have them aswell. Is that a double standard?”

    The legislation does not MAKE them have them, it just makes it safe and legal if they CHOOSE to have them. So no, I do not think it is a double standard to work to prevent women from having abortions but want to keep it legal for those who are going to choose to have one no matter what, or for those who need to have one in case of health, rape, or incest. But that is because even though I, personally, can not imagine terminating a pregnancy accidental or otherwise, I recognize that there are a lot of people who do not think it is a child until the second trimester or until it can survive outside of the womb on its own. Of course, my mother is pro choice. But she also told me when I was a teenager that if I got pregnant, I was going to have the baby and take care of it, even if it meant no college, no future. She also set early curfews and didn’t let me be alone with a guy until I went off to college. My mom knew how to prevent abortion – AND teenage sex!

  76. Brad said

    Kash, you’re making a lot of weak arguments that simply aren’t holding up. As a Christian, it is IMPOSSIBLE to say that abortion is OK. IMPOSSIBLE. The rampant destruction of human life by this awful procedure simply CANNOT be supported by anyone who calls themself a Christian.

    Making abortion illegal won’t stop all abortions, but it will most likely cut down on them, and maybe some women will think twice about it. If you try to use the argument that we’re not doing anything to help women who “find themselves in a bad situation, with a boyfriend who doesn’t want a baby, no way to support herself and no other options”, whose fault is that, honestly? Yours? Mine? Or the woman’s?

    All woman know how they become pregnant. If they don’t want to be, the way ISN’T to become pregnant, and then abort; it’s to not become pregnant at all. There are ways to prevent that from happening (abstinence before marriage being the best). Here’s the problem – some women don’t want to do that. They want to be able to live free and do as they wish, without planning for the future or accepting responsibility for choices they’ve made. It’s truly sad. Abortion isn’t the problem – it’s a symptom of a deeper underlying problem.

  77. Maz said

    Kash: Why make the killing of babies in the womb ‘safe and legal’ and killing someone outside the womb is a crime?

  78. Maz said

    Kash: Your mum was a wise woman. Was she a Christian?

  79. Maz said

    Brad: Yes…that’s the point isn’t it, it IS AN AWFUL PROCEDURE….how can Kash think it is OK?

  80. Jared said

    F. L. A.

    You are correct by the definition. I am “a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion” as it stands in conflict with the word of God and is revealed within the Scriptures (Bible)(bigot = from the dictionary) . You will see Jesus Christ stood firm against any differing creed, belief, or opinion” as it stands in conflict with the word of God and was/is revealed within the Scriptures. I do not do it any where close to as well as Him. He did not tolerate the untrue, creeds, beliefs, or opinions, taught by the Pharisees or Sadducees.

    These truths are not based upon me. I have a truth upon which to stand, derived completely from outside of myself, that makes perfect sense of every aspect and detail of this fallen world. Sometimes it isn’t all that easy and awfully humbling.

    Nothing against you personally, but having faith in God … who has all knowledge and power … makes a whole lot more sense than having faith in nothing that turned into something (matter)and then turned into cognizance and finally into intelligence. Nothing isn’t much to have faith in or for that matter to base an systematic argument upon.

    Reducing the above equation to its root.

    In other words … there is no point in discussing anything with nothing!

  81. Thoughts said

    Historically, most blacks have voted Democrat (2000 election 90%, 2004 election 88%). Predictions state that the numbers will be similar again this election. I think it’s more of a cultural thing than anything else. The only difference is now more are voting. I would imagine through the law of large numbers that this would have been true in prior years had these same people voted. I think the similarity of race with this presedential candidate has finally given them the motivation they need to actually say their two cents and vote. In the end, we are only getting a more accurate picture of what “America” feels…….not a change in vote because of his color.

  82. Maz said

    Kash: And here’s another thought, making abortion legal means you’re just making it easier for women to go out and have sex because…..well…they can have an abortion if they get pregnant right? That is NOT RIGHT. And it is NOT MORAL. And it is NOT ETHICAL. And it is NOT CHRISTIAN.

  83. Kash said

    “If you try to use the argument that we’re not doing anything to help women who “find themselves in a bad situation, with a boyfriend who doesn’t want a baby, no way to support herself and no other options”, whose fault is that, honestly? Yours? Mine? Or the woman’s?”

    Christ tells me it doesn’t matter whose fault it is, it is my responsibility to help.

    “All woman know how they become pregnant.”

    And all men know how women get pregnant. Why don’t we make it a law that all men must take drugs that make them sterile until they get married? Bingo. Fewer unwanted pregnancies, fewer abortions.

    “And here’s another thought, making abortion legal means you’re just making it easier for women to go out and have sex because…..well…they can have an abortion if they get pregnant right? That is NOT RIGHT. And it is NOT MORAL. And it is NOT ETHICAL. And it is NOT CHRISTIAN.”

    So we should make it illegal for women to have sex?

    Not all abortions are unmarried women. Almost 20% are married women, another 10% are divorced. And here is the religious affiliation breakdown:
    Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as “Born-again/Evangelical”.

    It is a far more complex issue than just irresponsible women going out and having lots of sex and then just carelessly going and having an abortion.

    In fact, it is often because abortion isn’t federally funded or easy to get in most places that the later term abortions occur. Women have to save up for the procedure and save up for the travel to a town or state where they can have one.

    Late term abortions (after the 20th week) are about 1% of all abortions, and even fewer of those are the so called “partial birth” procedure.

    I am not defending abortion, but let’s have an accurate image of what is really going on. Millions of fully formed babies are not being pulled from wombs and left to die on hospital floors. Yes, one would be too many. But it doesn’t help the cause to stretch the truth. It just makes people not trust anything you say.

  84. Kash said

    BTW, my mom is not a Christian. I came to Christ because of reading the Bible on my own. My parents lost their faith because of the way they saw Christians behaving in the late 60s/early 70s towards black people. I am working to remind them to look to Christ, not other Christians.

    One of my best friends was raised in a fundamentalist household. Her sister had an abortion when she was 17, and another after her divorce when she was in her 30s (not long ago). She votes Republican and has a pro life bumper sticker on her car. She has a teenage son and was on food stamps for a long time, yet she rails about “those liberals that want to take her taxes and give them to poor people.” She has never told her mother that she has had an abortion.

    And I’m a hypocrite because I’m a Christian who won’t vote Republican?

  85. Maz said

    Kash: ”So we should make it illegal for women to have sex?”

    At the end of the day, a woman AND a man, know what they are doing when they are having unprotected sex, and should therefore take responsibility if the woman gets pregnant, or they shouldn’t do it in the first place…….and no one should make it easier for them to be irresponsible either, least of all a Christian.

  86. Maz said

    Kash: ”Almost 20% are married women”.

    One wonders whether their husband chooses for that baby…his baby to be aborted. Does HE have a choice?

  87. Maz said

    Kash: ”I am not defending abortion, but let’s have an accurate image of what is really going on.”

    You could have fooled me.

    And I think we have an accurate image of what is really going on. I’v seen the pictures….horrific.

  88. Kash said

    Maz,
    “And no one should make it easier for them to be irresponsible either, least of all a Christian.”
    Making abortion illegal is not going to keep people from having sex. It probably won’t even keep them from having abortions.

    “One wonders whether their husband chooses for that baby…his baby to be aborted. Does HE have a choice?”

    Some husbands are the ones who want her to have an abortion. Or say she is in an abusive marriage, and is afraid to have her baby?

  89. Kash said

    Maz,
    I was thinking about your comment all afternoon, about the man having a choice. You know, every man has a choice not to engage in casual sex. And every man who has had a one night stand may have contributed to an abortion.

    Wouldn’t it be nice if we could somehow make men legally responsible for their sperm? Right now all of the legal burden is on the woman, but in general women are far less irresponsible with their eggs than men are with their sperm.

    Just a thought. I hope the use of scientific terms doesn’t offend anyone. I don’t mean it “crassly”, just trying to get everyone to look at the big picture AND how it affects individuals we care about.

  90. Kash said

    Maz,
    I think it is perfectly consistent to think that abortion is almost always the wrong choice, but still think it should be a choice. Making something illegal rarely makes it less likely to be abused. It just makes it a little bit harder to get and a lot more expensive. It drives it underground where it is more difficult to prevent, and more difficult to find the women needing that extra help to encourage them to keep the baby.

  91. Tonya said

    Brad #76-

    You said:
    “As a Christian, it is IMPOSSIBLE to say that abortion is OK”

    That is not the position of the other ticket in this race. Both McCain and Palin are federalist and both have said they believe the issue of abortion and gay marriage should be decided by the state. So since they do have that position, then they are, in essence say ok to abortion.

    It does not matter about the personal decision that Palin made about her own baby. She say that she is against abortion except in the case of the mother’s life being in danger. Even if the mother’s life is in danger, abortion is still abortion.

    Now, to address the actual question in this thread…I don’t think ANYONE who is not an African American can answer this question. I am an African American woman and I support Barack Obama. Not because he is black, he could be white, Asian, Native American, etc, and my position would be the same. I am not looking for him to be the savior of the nation, but I am praying that God will use him as He see fits. We must all understand that the word of God is clear:

    Proverbs 21:1
    The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD;
    he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

  92. Tonya said

    Brad #76-

    You said:
    “As a Christian, it is IMPOSSIBLE to say that abortion is OK”

    That is not the position of the other ticket in this race. Both McCain and Palin are federalist and both have said they believe the issue of abortion and gay marriage should be decided by the state. So since they do have that position, then they are, in essence say ok to abortion.

    It does not matter about the personal decision that Palin made about her own baby. She say that she is against abortion except in the case of the mother’s life being in danger. Even if the mother’s life is in danger, abortion is still abortion.

    Now, to address the actual question in this thread…I don’t think ANYONE who is not an African American can answer this question. I am an African American woman and I support Barack Obama. Not because he is black, he could be white, Asian, Native American, etc, and my position would be the same.

    I am not looking for him to be the savior of the nation, but I am praying that God will use him as He see fits. We must all understand that the word of God is clear:

    Proverbs 21:1
    The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD;
    he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

    Our faith must not be in man (regardless of party affiliation). In fact, the Word says woe to anyone who trusts in man. Our faith must be in God and His Sovereignty. Either we believe that God is God or God and He is in control or that He is just a spectator.

  93. Maz said

    Kash: ”Making abortion illegal is not going to keep people from having sex. It probably won’t even keep them from having abortions”.

    So that makes it all right?

    ”Some husbands are the ones who want her to have an abortion. Or say she is in an abusive marriage, and is afraid to have her baby?”

    But what about the poor husbands who don’t want it and have no right to stop it?

    ”I was thinking about your comment all afternoon, about the man having a choice. You know, every man has a choice not to engage in casual sex. And every man who has had a one night stand may have contributed to an abortion.”

    Both men and women have a choice about having sex, but the man has no choice in the abortion…..it STILL doesn’t make it right.

    Everyone should be responsible and care for the life of a child whether in the womb or outside AND THAT INCLUDES……AND IT MUST INCLUDE CHRISTIANS.
    And ‘driving it underground’ STILL DOES NOT MAKE ABORTION RIGHT.

  94. F. L. A. said

    You assume too much, Jared.
    But then, this is all part of your charm…..[Huge sharp-toothed grin].

  95. John said

    “In other words…there is no point in discussing anything with nothing!” Jaredpost#80
    Is this kind of thinking the motivation behind why you stopped debating on the last site that involved the topic of the Evolutionary Sciences?

    To imply that you think that we think something came from nothing is an oversimplication of the issue. It is good to stand up for what one believes, but I don’t understand how maintaining such an attutude of…”exclusiveness”… can help you bring intelectual skeptics into the fold.

  96. Kasha said

    Maz,

    You continue to fail to see that I am not claiming that abortion is right. I am simply arguing that making it illegal is not the most effective or compassionate way to try and stop it. That is why I can vote in good conscience for Obama because of my belief on other issues (poverty, health care, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, education, and so on) and not feel like I am somehow encouraging the murder of millions of babies. No matter who is president and what the law is, I will continue to support my local crisis pregnancy center, teach the young girls in my class abstinence and self respect, support programs that fight against poverty and lack of access to good education, and in many other concrete ways work to make this a world where no one will ever even consider having an abortion.

    I recognize that many of you think that everything good I do is cancelled out by the fact that I don’t automatically vote for the most likely person to appoint conservative judges that may overturn Roe v Wade. So be it. That is your right, and if you are voting for McCain because you honestly think he is the best candidate for this country and not because you are afraid of Obama based on the false rumours and scare mongering, then I respect your decision and ask that you respect mine. That is what freedom and democracy are all about.

  97. Jared said

    Kash

    I find it highly ironic you say you can vote in good conscience for Osama if you believe abortion is wrong, homosexuality is wrong, and say you are a christian and attend a southern baptist church. And actually we don’t have a democracy. It was never intended that way. It was actually modeled after the Presbyterian style of church government. Where you have representation of men who are discerning and wise with regard to the truth. And, although we have such a bunch of liars this go around running for political office and it is extraordinarily difficult to glean any kind of truth, that is to say, they will say what ever best suits the audience they are pandering to at the moment, and many very undiscerning people will believe them in spite of the contradictory actions (fruit).

    It is my contention, and I believe is clearly explicit in the word of God, that this lack of discernment, as I believe you clearly represent, is a direct reflection of our lack of worship of God (note that I said our and mean corporate). When I say worship I am speaking in the broad sense of the term as it applies to the congregation on the Lord’s day . We have not humbled ourselves and put off our own self gratifying notions of worship and looked to God’s word for the structuring of our worship so that it is in truth. Rather we collect in churches, as with Osamas (the extreme), to engage in social activism, as you also clearly represent in your commentary (and generally the southern baptists have been known for for years), preaching politics, injustices, pointing fingers at others sin, rather than engaging in reflection upon our own heinous sinful condition, repenting of our own sin, engaging ourselves in the preaching of God’s word (not primarily the topical messages of society), submitting ourselves to authority, and spiritually feeding on the body and blood of Christ in humility.

    Like was said earlier … the church, broad, is only a little behind the world and headed in the same direction. So sad when we are to stand fast upon our Rock that we are only steps behind the world, as you also represent by your own comments.

  98. Maz said

    Kash: ”You continue to fail to see that I am not claiming that abortion is right. I am simply arguing that making it illegal is not the most effective or compassionate way to try and stop it”

    Compassionate for who? What compassion does the baby get from keeping abortion legal?

    And I am not voting, because I am not American….I am English, living in England….but I still care deeply about thousands of babies being aborted every year wherever that is.

  99. VB said

    To answer the question. No. If the questions is based on if one is a Christian, the answer is still ‘no.’

  100. VB said

    Oops! I meant ‘If the question…’

  101. VB said

    Oops! I meant ‘If the question…’

  102. VB said

    One more comment…I am a black american. Also, maybe we could have a question on why do some many christian support an abortion candidate. Why do they take the ‘Pontius Pilate’ route?

  103. Maz said

    VB: I’d like to know that too, altho we have already had some discussion on that with one particular Christian on here who supports an abortion candidate.

  104. Kasha said

    As the particular Christian who supports the “abortion candidate”: When you see the election as an “abortion candidate” running against a “no abortion candidate” you are making a convenient moral over-simplification of the world. You think that by voting only on that one issue you are going to stop abortions, and because of that you are willing to throw under the bus all other moral decisions – the war, poverty, health care, etc. And you accuse ME of not caring equally about all people!!!!

    If McCain wins, abortions are still going to be legal. Even if he gets to appoing a judge or two, abortions are still going to be legal. Meanwhile, how many soldiers are going to die in Iraq? How many innocent Iraquis and innocent Afghanis are going to die? And what if McCain decides to “bomb bomb bomb Iran” as he sang earlier this year?

    Meanwhile, health care costs are going to bankrupt more families. More families are going to find themselves homeless because of the mortgage crisis. Families WITH CHILDREN, and women WHO ARE PREGNANT.

    I do not have the luxury of pretending, like many of you do, that all I have to do is vote for the pro life candidate and wait for Jesus to come back. When I read the Bible, it calls me to do hard thinking and even harder living to try and make this world a better place for my Lord and all of His children. God made me this way and I thank Him for it. I would rather be a bleeding heart liberal Christian than a white washed tomb of a pharisee any day.

  105. Stanley said

    Kasha, that was the best post I’ve ever read on this site.
    No sarcasm.

  106. Maz said

    Kasha: Remember that I am not an American in America so I am not voting for anyone. I f I was it wouldn’t be for Obama, and that wouldn’t be JUST because of the pro-life stance I have.

    I think abortion is a MAJOR MAJOR issue…….killing babies……MAJOR, MAJOR issue.

    ”God made me this way and I thank Him for it. I would rather be a bleeding heart liberal Christian than a white washed tomb of a pharisee any day.”

    Who are you calling a ‘whitewashed pharisee’ Kash? Because we stand against abortion??

  107. Kasha said

    The pharisees put the law before compassion and mercy.

    “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, because the do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.”

    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do no enter, nor will you let those entre who are trying to. Woe to you, teaches of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.”

    I am not calling anyone in particular a Pharisee, although I see some Pharisee-type theology discussed here. I am simply trying my hardest not to be one myself. Thus my firm conviction that being pro-life is not as simple or as easy a matter as just voting for McCain (or in your case, telling me that I ought to since the other is the “abortion” candidate) and then reading my Bible in the sanctimonious comfort of my home without trying to go into the world and actually do what Jesus told me to do.

    Now I will wait and see how Jared thinks I am, once again, “butchering scripture” because of my “self made religion”.

  108. Kasha said

    Thank you, Stanley, for your kind words. I think you might enjoy two books that will give you a more balanced view of Christianity than what is sometimes apparent here:
    “THe Ragamuffin Gospel” by Brennan Manning and “The Irresistable Revolution” by Shane Claiborne. Philip Yancey and Gary Willis have written some very good books about taking the gospels seriously. And of course, the gospels themselves, especially the “red letter” parts.

  109. Kasha said

    Make that Garry Wills, not Gary Willis

  110. Paul said

    The book of Judges tells of a time when “every man did that which was right in his own eyes”(judges 17:6)and the nation fell into chaos. There was a complete lack of morality. That’s where we are headed. The poeple trying to lead are’nt trying to do wrong, they are tying to do right.But they’re blind,so what they think is right is actually wrong. When the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch. Make certain you have real wisdom God’s wisdom. Don’t allow the darkness to be your light.

  111. Maz said

    Kasha: ”The pharisees put the law before compassion and mercy”

    The pharisees were religious but they had no heart. They cared more about traditions than peoples needs. And that included the children that cry silently with no one to hear.

  112. A said

    I wholeheartedly agree with what Kasha said in #104 and #107. I respect that many make voting about pro-life candidates verses the other candidates. If that is your passion, then vote according to it. Stop trying to use the Bible as a weapon and accept that MANY other Christ followers disagree.

    I also love the Ragamuffin Gospel (mentioned in #108). Here are a few other suggestions…unChristian, Jim and Casper Go to Church, What’s So Amazing about Grace, Blue Like Jazz, The Cost of Discipleship, and Grace Walk. All of them will challenge your thinking like they did mine. The Bible is my source and what I read the most, however, the words penned by these authors are very helpful when we seek to apply the truths of scripture to our lives.

    I said the following on Friday (post #37):

    Everyone must go vote as their hearts lead them and quit demonizing those who vote differently than them. I am not at all threatened by those who vote differently than me. This is especially true since I know that God is in complete control. If my guy loses, my faith will not weaken and my God will not diminish in power.

    BTW, I find it inappropriate for two white men leading the discussion regarding the question “Does Obama truly represent Black voters?” I recognize when I am not at all qualified to lead certain discussions. The least that Stu could do is find a Black man or woman to join them in the studio. The better option would be to select another topic.

    Because of His Sacrifice…

  113. VB said

    Kasha 104 – “You think that by voting only on that one issue you are going to stop abortions, and because of that you are willing to throw under the bus all other moral decisions – the war, poverty, health care, etc. And you accuse ME of not caring equally about all people!!!!”

    Hi Kasha, I didn’t mean to offend you. It ‘sounds like’ you are personally upset. I’m not sure who accused you of not caring. I do hope – not DEMAND – that you will try towithdraw any personal feelings and reflect on these issues based on God’s word.

    My point is based on the word of God and not any political issues, bur since abortion has been brought to the courts – it is a biblical and Christian issue.

    The sentiment of the ‘abortion issue’ is eerily similiar to Pontius Pilate.

    It is amazing that in such a ‘civilized society’ that has some many forms of birth control readily available that people would agree to take the ‘easy’ road an d kill an innocent child. It’s hypocritical and selfish to think of one’s own rights whil denying the rights of the unborn. There is nonthing God honoring in abortion. Whatever we do to the least we do unto Christ. For any child of God to think of aborting a life that God has allowed to live (regardless if it’s rape or incest,etc…) is unbiblical. Don’t forget about David, Rahab, etc…

    Bottom line, it’s unGodly to abort a life that God has allowed to be conceived.

    We as christians should let things get to us unless it offends God

  114. VB said

    Oops! I meant to delete the last line. Anyway, it should’ve said “should’nt”

  115. Kash said

    VB,

    If I seemed defensive, I apologize. If you will read through the posts, you will find that several bloggers here continuously question my motives, quality of my faith, quality of my understanding of the scriptures, etc. So I am, in a very real sense, defending what I believe. I am not upset any more than it always upsets me to see the incredibly loving, caring, non legalistic words of Jesus used to justify what seems to me a very strict, lifeless legalistic religion in which people can pick out one issue (abortion) and say there is only one way that Christians should vote EVEN IF they don’t even think that vote is going to actually help reduce the incidence of abortion.

  116. Kash said

    VB,

    If I seemed defensive, I apologize. If you will read through the posts, you will find that several bloggers here continuously question my motives, quality of my faith, quality of my understanding of the scriptures, etc. So I am, in a very real sense, defending what I believe. I am not upset any more than it always upsets me to see the incredibly loving, caring, non legalistic words of Jesus used to justify what seems to me a very strict, lifeless legalistic religion in which people can pick out one issue (abortion) and say there is only one way that Christians should vote EVEN IF they don’t even think that vote is going to actually help reduce the incidence of abortion.

  117. Stanley said

    Where in the bible does it say “abortion is wrong?”

  118. Maz said

    Stanley: ”Thou shalt not kill.”

  119. Stanley said

    But really, where does it say abortion is wrong?

  120. Maz said

    Stanley: How much clearer must it be….”THOU SHALT NOT KILL”…..God did not specify who.

  121. Kash said

    Maz says:
    “How much clearer must it be….”THOU SHALT NOT KILL”…..God did not specify who.”

    Nor did He specify that killing embryos in the womb was worse than letting children starve to death or torturing or bombing people. All wanton destruction of life is bad. That is why neither candidate is consistently enough pro-life to automatically get my vote without considering other issues. And yes, I know that many of you think McCain is more pro-life because he says he will apoint conservative, pro-life judges to the bench. I simply disagree.

  122. Maz said

    Kash: No He didn’t, but I was answering Stanleys question about abortion.

  123. Kash said

    I know, I just happen to think it applies to more than just abortion.

    I’ve got to go, and I probably won’t be back before the end of the election, so I hope all of you have short lines and a pleasant voting experience, no matter who you are voting for.

  124. Maz said

    Kash: I know, but it always seems to me that you think everything else is a major issue EXCEPT abortion.

  125. F. L. A. said

    Did you not once on the “Understanding the world of Wicca and More” site say within one of your posts that it was alright to destroy the children[and artifacts and cultures] of “those judged evil according to God”, Maz?
    I could provide the post numbers if you wish to help you remember.

  126. Maz said

    F.L.A: The Bible clearly states that one of the ten commandments God gave Moses was ”Thou shalt not kill”. This was a law for man.
    On the other hand, God is God, and He is just and He is Holy and He has to destroy wickedness.
    It seems that God doesn’t live according to His own law, but if you really want to know the answer to that you will have to ask Him, because I don’t know how to help you understand the difference.

  127. F. L. A. said

    I expect that a deity can do whatever IT feels IT can get away with. It is interesting to note that Jehovah often seemed to employ the help of “his chosen people” to do much of the murdering of those judged to be wicked. I cannot help but think that there is a disturbing similarity between such ancient behavior and that committed by more modern,condemned groups accused of ethnic cleansing/genocide. It is an all to easy thing for the devout to believe that the warring tribes of Moses and others within the Bible were justified in their actions because God allowed it[So THEY said, anyway.], but, if, for example, thousands of years ago an Adolf Hitler or Pol Pot committed the crimes against humanity that we are all familiar with and the victors used theology as a justification and recorded it within a collection of holy writings, which thousands of years later are used as the foundation of a powerful global theology, would anyone within the modern age know any better? Of course this is a purely hypothetical scenario, but this does not make it an impossible scenario.
    I guess as a follower of the theology you will just have to have faith that all is as it appears to be, eh?

  128. Maz said

    F.L.A: There are some things hard for us to understand, but one thing is true, our God is just, if He used Israel for judgment upon the wicked nations then His war was a righteous war, not just to exterminate people because He hated them without a cause, but to rid the world of evil. Those He commanded the children of Israel to kill were evil and idolatrous people, some of which killed their own children in horrible ways to their gods.

  129. F. L. A. said

    I am familiar with the stories.

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