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Usama VS Obama

Posted by truthtalklive on October 28, 2008

Today’s guest Usama Dakdok founder of The Straight way home ministry says Barack Obama is a Muslim. Our other in-studio guest, Juan Davis is an Obama supporter and he doesn’t think so. What do you think? Thanks for listening and we look foward to your comments!

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189 Responses to “Usama VS Obama”

  1. Maz said

    OH DEAR!

  2. Maz said

    Havn’t we had enough of this subject by now? Enough has been said on the other sites, why one more just to add to all the bickering already.

  3. Mike S. said

    Here is the latest from the Obama Campaign…

    A new 30-second spot on Barack Obama’s Web site is urging voters to “talk to your boss” or professor and then take the day off from work or school to volunteer for his campaign on Election Day.

    The “Take the Day” campaign suggests voters sign up to go to battleground states or work in phone banks closer to home on Nov. 4, when they would normally be at work or in class.

    “We can’t win this election unless every Obama supporter gets out and votes on November 4th. To do that, we need a massive team of volunteers helping us. Can you take next Tuesday off from work, join the final push, and make sure that everyone who supports Barack turns out to vote?” asks the Web page hosting the ad.

    I think this accurately displays Obama’s idea about the government/citizen relationship. He wants us to go ahead and get started serving him. He’ll start taking our hard earned dollars to give to those who won’t work for it later. I thought the government was in place to serve the people, not vice versa. At least McCain/Palin understand that simple fact. Is this not scary?

  4. abc's said

    Mike S.

    If a person feels strongly that Obama is the right candidate for the presidency then why shouldn’t they put in a little bit of effort to help him get elected?

  5. Stanley said

    Obama is a muslim, Obama is a muslim, Obama is a muslim.

    Maybe if I say it enough, it’ll come true!! because it isn’t…

    This is just stupid. Shame on you TTL.

    I’d also like you to know that I voted today for Barack Hussein Obama. Also, I’d like you to know that I am not a dirty racist, TTL…

  6. jAsOn said

    Abc,

    I believe Mike is pointing to the ad as a symptom of the view one has of political office. It has been transformed over the years from a position of public service to a professionalism. It’s just another career choice. I’ve got a radical idea for you all. I believe if our “representatives” in government took the job seriously, they should be willing to take a 40 % pay cut across the board.

  7. abc's said

    JAsOn

    I agree that running for office has turned into just another career choice.
    I just interpret this message differently. I think the message is: if a person really is tired of the way things are going with the country and they want things to change, then they are obligated to take some kind of action.
    It doesn’t do any good to sit around and complain about the way things are. I think the message has inspired a lot of people.

  8. jAsOn said

    i agree that it can be interpreted differently. It depends on your hermeneutic: either you see Obama or maybe all politicians as users rather than servants, or you see Obama as an agent of change.

  9. Mike S. said

    Change, that is certain. Is it the change we want? I am for Government structured “of the people, by the people and for the people.” I believe Obama’s mind set is “from the people, to the people, in spite of the people”!

  10. You are to judge a true Christian by thier fruits. Does Obama show the fruits of the Spirit?

    No.

  11. Stewart said

    Usama, God Bless you. I support you and am praying for you at this moment. Your words need to be heard beforehand because the truth will come out after the fact and those whom have heard you now will remember.

  12. Kash said

    “You are to judge a true Christian by thier fruits. Does Obama show the fruits of the Spirit?”

    The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.

    I think Obama shows those things.

  13. Stewart said

    We have to remember that God is in control. No matter the outcome of the this election. If Obama wins the presidency then we can be sure that is God’s will. We can also be sure that the end will be near.

    I am a Christian and I am voting for McCain.

  14. I feel like I’m in a Left Behind movie, where only the true Christians could hear what the Beast was actually saying, all others heard what made them happy.

  15. Kash said

    “But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace loving, considerate, submissive, full or mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.” James 3:17

    Look at the fruits of all of these people referring to “so-called” Christians. Are they showing any of the above traits? Does Usama Dakdok show consideration? impartiality?

    Obama is not the enemy. The enemy is the anger and hatred within your own souls.

  16. “The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.

    I think Obama shows those things.”

    Yea, he is _real_ kind and loving to unborn, patially born, and abortion surviving babies. REAL Kind. And Good and Gentle too.

    In a pig’s eye.

  17. Kash said

    “I feel like I’m in a Left Behind movie, where only the true Christians could hear what the Beast was actually saying, all others heard what made them happy.”

    I think one of the problems is that people know more about the Left Behind series than what is actually in the Bible, and they have confused which one is the inerrant word of God.

  18. kevdei said

    can a Muslim enter and worship in a christian church and can he do that for 20 years..come on where do they find these people.. Please every stop listening to stu..wrtu is a great station but this is so jerry springer don’t you think..

    I am a Christian and I have a question for those with this dooms day attitude..you know the mass mailings as it relates to end time events.. As a Christian isn’t this what our hope is in..Our Lord’s Return..are you ready to be caught up..because the only time it’s going to get better is when Our Lord Returns…

  19. Kash said “I think one of the problems is that people know more about the Left Behind series than what is actually in the Bible, and they have confused which one is the inerrant word of God.”

    It was an example, Kash, not a statement of my theology. It is one reading of the Bible, however not one I agree with, should you care, since you have chosen to judge my Biblicial knowledge.

  20. Stewart said

    Kash, I think you are mistaken; showing the error of a person’s ways is not hate, it is love if your goal is to reveal truth – Jesus Christ. Jesus did not walk around telling everyone that he loved them. He rebuked many, many people who were blinded to the truth because they were so set in their ways.

    Kevdei, as Christians we definitely look forward to our Lord’s return, but we greive for those who will be lost which stirs up in us a desire and an urgency to share the gospel with others.

  21. Kash said

    “Yea, he is _real_ kind and loving to unborn, patially born, and abortion surviving babies.”

    And many Christians who are virulently anti-abortion are kind ONLY to unborn babies.

    The community programs Obama was involved with in Chicago actually made real change in people’s lives where they were less likely to find themselves in a situation considering abortion. Things like education, job programs, family support systems.

    Making abortion illegal will simply drive it underground for the poor and out of the country for the rich. If Christians would put the money and energy they spend trying to make it illegal into crisis pregnancy centers, community programs for at risk youth, encouraging people to adopt rather than go for expensive inferitilty treatments (which, in the case of IVF result in 100s of “surplus embryos” that are eventually destroyed – why aren’t you accusing couples of attempting IVF of infanticide??) abortion would significantly decrease.

  22. Kash said

    I am speaking in generalities when I say “many Christians”, not you specifically Jim. Trust me, my “biblical knowledge” gets judged often enough on this site also, so I apologize. I, too, am just trying to make a point.

  23. kevdei said

    yes i agree but durin trib god will make away for a reminat correct. mark 13;10 becuase he says all nations will have heard

  24. Stewart said

    Is it better to let those who are lost endure the tribulation or for them to be saved before hand so they can also share in our joy as we wait for our savior to come?

  25. Kash said

    Stewart says,
    “Jesus did not walk around telling everyone that he loved them.”

    Jesus says,
    “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love…My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.” John 15:9,10,12

    Yes, Jesus rebukes. But he always rebukes in love. And Jesus commands US to love, not to rebuke. God will judge, not us. There is too much judgement and too little love in this world I think.

  26. kevdei said

    don’t doctors have a Hippocratic oath that covers this..and i am not discounting your point but what was on the rest of the bill..If he couldn’t vote for this bill i mean the guy has two daughters

    Kash Says:
    October 28, 2008 at 6:11 pm
    “Yea, he is _real_ kind and loving to unborn, patially born, and abortion surviving babies.”

  27. Nikki said

    It is a sad day for our country when so many who profess to be
    “born again christians” do not know the meaning of that heavy weighted phrase that it is used so loosely.
    1Cr 6:20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body* and in your spirit, which are God’s.
    If we do in fact belong to God “The One True God” how can we possibly in any way conceive of voting into the hightest office in our great land a man who does not honor God? Our judgment should be on what God says period. The Word of God changes not. It does not matter what a person says for lies are told eaisly, but it does matter what the person does and what they stand for. America if we do not wake up the judgement of God is inevitable.

  28. kevdei said

    wide is the gate that leads to destruction..to me this doesn’t absorb me of my christian duty but it also says God who cast down a third of the angels because of their rebellion knows His children and the are on that narrow road..

  29. Kash said

    It is a sad day for out country when many born again Christians go around questioning the faith of other born again Christians over politics.

  30. kevdei said

    i have found that most Christians don’t proclaim their faith except every 4 years..if they did we would have put a stop to the persecution and genocide around the world. Here at home hate wouldn’t rear it’s ugly head The Nation would have not roe v wade ever pass..the wouldn’t be an issue with gay marriage.. their is mot to His Divine word then thou shalt no kill..

    Not looking for a fight..just like most Christians this has been a struggle with me..I am at peace with my decision just not with the hate i hear from people i going to spend eternity with 🙂

  31. kevdei said

    aren’t we to judge or identify those by the fruit they bear..God Judges. And aren’t we to be wise stewards in all areas.. do you think this buck shot approach from the right was effective.. pick this woman who can run 600,00 people but President of the country..I try i try but this is very erratic behavior to me..and the age..Why we didn’t hucklbe get the nod..he was is very much in tune with us..

  32. Kash said

    So many of you seem to think that abortion is the only sin that breaks God’s heart. Well, maybe that AND homosexuality. What about poverty? What about hatred? What about war, famine, and genocide? What about adultery? What about divorce, and single parent homes, and homeless children, and men driven to be alcoholics when they are unable to support their families? What about the children of parents who are both strung out on meth? Some of us think that government has a role to play in helping people in these situations, and feel the democrats are more likely to do so. Not to mention we think the way to fight many of these social ills and vices are through education and safety nets, rather than criminalization. What happened to Bush’s promised faith based initiatives? Where are the fruits of his promises? Why am I evil for suspecting that McCain also will not stand for the poor and oppressed except (possibly) the unborn?

    So many of you seem to equate support for McCain as support for God, and are calling for judgement on our country if he doesn’t win. Go back and read 1 Samuel, when Israel asks for a king instead of trusting in God.

  33. Jim said

    For me, it’s not politics, it’s infanticide I judge on. Pro-infanticide = not Christian, in my opinion and theology.

  34. Stanley said

    Obviously God’s will is for Obama to be elected. Why do you go against the will of God?

  35. Stanley said

    Stop trying to rationalize your prejudice.

  36. kevdei said

    Kash Says:
    October 28, 2008 at 6:37 pm

    are you a Christian?

  37. Jim said

    Kash,

    You bring up good points about all the other sins. But infanticide has killed 30,000,000 in the USA alone since RvW, and the victim never had any choice or change at life.

  38. Stewart said

    As a Christian I would not be bothered by another Christian questioning my faith. It is quite easy to tell them “I am a Christian because Jesus died for my sins in order to reconcile me to God. I have repented and am forever in a process of spiritual growth becoming more Jesus-like each day.” How hard is it to explain? I get worried about those who claim to be Christians but cannot clearly state why they are a Christian or how the gospel has changed their life.

  39. Kash said

    Yes, I am a Christian. I was even baptized in a Baptist church, so I think maybe even Usama would begrudgingly grant that I am a Christian (smile). BTW, I also like Huckabee a lot.

  40. kevdei said

    I pray that after this election we moblize as Christians for God’s cause which is the kingdom and not flee like we did two weeks after 9/11. or every four years..

  41. Stanley said

    Good thing Bush did so much to overturn Roe v. Wade.

    Have you not realized that the Republicans (particularly Neo-cons) don’t care about abortion. Voting for McCain won’t stop abortion. If you don’t want to get an abortion, don’t have one.

  42. Kash said

    Stewart,
    “I am a Christian because Jesus died for my sins in order to reconcile me to God. I have repented and am forever in a process of spiritual growth becoming more Jesus-like each day.”

    And yet the guest today doesn’t believe that Obama is a Christian, even though he has said basically this very thing in both of his books.

    “As a Christian I would not be bothered by another Christian questioning my faith.”

    I am not bothered for my sake, I am bothered for their sake, and for Christ’s.

  43. Jim said

    “If you don’t want to get an abortion, don’t have one”

    Not enough, we have to help the helpless.

  44. Kash said

    Jim says,
    “You bring up good points about all the other sins. But infanticide has killed 30,000,000 in the USA alone since RvW, and the victim never had any choice or change at life.”

    Yes, and I keep talking about all of the ways the Christian community could work to decrease abortions without waiting for the overturn of Roe v Wade, but sometimes i feel like everyone would rather argue about whether Obama is really a Christian or not.

    I have to sign off now, here’s wishing you all a pleasant evening.

  45. Stanley said

    Voting for McCain won’t help.

  46. Lara said

    I’m astounded at the fact the people actually think Obama could be a believer! Why do Christians think it is ok to support someone who was quoted as saying that he would ‘teach his daughters morals but, if one made a mistake and got pregnant he wouldn’t want her to be PUNISHED with a child!’ How could the Church vote a man into office who intends on legalizing abortion on demand?? Do others not see partial-birth abortion in the 9th month as gruesome and cruel?

    2 Timothy 4:2-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    This scripture is the only way I make sense of these “Christians” and their support of Obama and his “Christianity”…They are turning away from the truth! Can’t people see that his life is the epitome of “All things to All people???” I’m curious, as a “Christian” how can he possibly think homosexuality is biblical, or that altering the definitions of marriage (Which GOD established since the beginning with Adam and Eve) lines up with the Word of God??

    People are compromising the word of God for some material gain through a man whose promises are empty and ironically will cause more economic hardship under his administration. This man is a liar outside the Whitehouse and he’ll be a liar inside the Whitehouse. As believers, we ought to be on our KNEES asking God to be merciful, to NOT make this man our leader! America will not be the same when he and other liberals have completed their agenda. After their done redefining the family what will be left of it?? We are moving closer and closer to a God-less America. Have mercy on us and our ignorance…

    p.s Youtube ‘Obama and the Bible’…there should be no doubt about what he thinks about the Bible and our faith with that video evidence.

  47. Stanley said

    You know how saying you’re not supposed to judge people, but then you’re being judgmental if you tell them you’re judging. Or telling someone you’re not supposed to force someone to do anything, although that is forcing them to act a certain way.

    Well, if you’re questioning Obama’s Christianity, then you’re Christianity is really in question…

  48. kevdei said

    Lara Says:
    October 28, 2008 at 7:03 pm
    I’m astounded at the fact the people actually think Obama could be a believer! Why do Christians think it is ok to support someone who was quoted as saying that he would ‘teach his daughters morals but, if one made a mistake and got pregnant he wouldn’t want her to be PUNISHED with a child!’ How could the Church vote a man into office who intends on legalizing abortion on demand?? Do others not see partial-birth abortion in the 9th month as gruesome and cruel?

    because he says he does..just like you say you do..what are you able to pierce into his heart and tell differently..this argument is silly..

  49. Sandi said

    Just do your own research. Everyone on this blog should ask themself…Do I know everything there is to know about the candidates. Based on your own research are you ready to make a decision? Have we become TV zombies- believing whatever the holy god of NBC-CBS-FOX-CNN has told us. We hope that the younger voter is not voting for Obama because he is the cool the one..American youth are smart-correct? You are a person and yes you are vulnerable to minipulation eventhough you think otherwise. If Obama is indeed a temporary closet and future practicing Muslim ..huh ..wouldn’t that be the biggest fool on Americans. <> it is not something that we should shrug off. We are all Americans in this together and we need to be sure of the truth. Who are we to shoot down someone that may have facts to share. Listening does not hurt ..if your afraid to listen then your afraid of your own interperation. If we have nothing- no information or our own research then who are we to disprove a theory, we need to at least try to understand. Our country is too important to not want truth!!!. Do you believe anything and everything or do you trust only yourself and the knowledge you find. SO I CHALLENGE YOU TO RESEARCH YOURSELF..Who knows you may even have more info on your side next time your trying to prove your candidate is best. Happy Researh as there will be a test! ..if you speak about your candidate without research knowledge your just blowing smoke and you need to shut up and not vote!!!!

  50. Jared said

    Amazing isn’t it Maz.

    This is why the only place to argue from is presupposing the truth of God’s word, even when you (yes I said us) don’t like it. The truth is abrasive at times. Otherwise you just go on and on. Nothing stirs up the atheists like the truth of God’s word.

    Brian Williams on NBC just called the christian scientists ….. Christians! Amazing.

    Did you read my post at the end of the last one 120 something.

  51. Stanley said

    Jared, you spelled “The lies of the bible,” wrong. You said “the truth of God’s word.” Easy mistake to make.

  52. Tonya said

    It completely amazes me how all of the evangelical Republicans that support McCain/Palin totally ignore the fact that both of them are soft at best on the abortion and gay marriage issue. Sure, they said they are pro-life and pro-man/woman marriage but where do the actually stand. Both of them have said that they are federalist and as federalists they both said that they believe that the decision should be left in the hands of the state. Taking that position, if a state recognizes and makes legal abortion and same sex marriage, then they would not have a problem with it.

    It also amazes me how evangelical republicans push the issues of abortion and same sex marriage as if whoever the republican candidate (no matter what race it is, from council member to president) they will be the Savior for the city, state, or nation as it relates to these issues. We like to throw out the number of aborted babies but how many of those babies were aborted under the tenure of Regan, Bush, and Bush…and oh yeah, Roe V Wade was past under a REPUBLICAN presidency (Nixon). How many states have legalized gay marriage in the 8 past years? 5…and yeah, all 5 happened within the last 8 years, the first being May 17, 2004!!

    Even if McCain/Palin was totally and strongly against abortion and gay marriage, it doesn’t matter!!

    The truth of the matter is the word of God is clear, a house divide against itself cannot stand. The division, even between the candidates themselves, shows that the Republicans are DIVIDED and like the oil on Aaron’s beard, it will come down from the TOP.

  53. Lara said

    Kevdei,

    Obama says a lot of things, however, his record has proven opposite of what he claims to have voted for and said on many occasions. Ex: Voting 4 different times against providing infants of failed abortions medical care. In an attempt to sugar coat his actions he says it was because, “the legislation was worded in a way that unconstitutionally threatened a woman’s right to abortion by defining the fetus as a child.” How can we trust that? I’m not peering into his heart. I’m going by his very own words. Obama says he’s a Christian but mocks the word of God. If you’re a believer then your life ought to be marked with striving for righteousness. None of us are perfect but, when you have a man voting against saving the lives of babies who survive abortion there is something seriously wrong with his moral compass. Where are his values rooted…it cannot be the word of God. It cannot be from the same Bible that says, “Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward the slaughter. If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?” (Proverbs 24:11-12) I would love to be able to believe this man because of what he says ,unfortunately, his actions simply do not support the words coming from his mouth and they are certainly not the words and actions of a Christian. Anyone who argues otherwise and knows the truth of where he stands is either blind or just plain foolish.

  54. Lara said

  55. Lauren said

    The Jerry Springer of Christian talk radio strikes again! Congrats Stu and TTL; you’ve found a way to reach new lows in subject matter. Obama a Muslim? Didn’t you cover this subject already? Can’t you come up with an original angle to bash the man? OK, here’s one just in time for Halloween… “Is Obama really a vampire?” (big pointy toothed grin)

    Sandi and Tonya are my heros. Nice posts ladies. I’d comment, but I might as well cut-n-paste what you said. Unfortunately it won’t do any good.

    You said it right in the first post Maz… “OH DEAR!”

  56. Maz said

    Jared #122: Yes it is amazing! and I did read your post (#122) on the other site this morning. I’m usually gone off this site between 5 – 6 p.m. your time because I am 5 hours ahead of you….well, I was, until our clocks went back 1 hour on Sunday. (And I forgot again as usual!)
    Will attempt to give an answer to some of the items on your list on the other site.

  57. Maz said

    Sorry that should have been… Jared #50.

  58. Maz said

    Lauren: ATLEAST SOMEONE AGREES with my sentiments in #1 and #2!! Hallelujah!

    How many more posts about Obama, Palin and McCain do we really need? Havn’t you said it all before?!

    Come on!! Havn’t we had enough sniping to and fro between CHRISTIANS about this.

    NOW IT IS TIME FOR Christians of America to seek God for yourselves who GOD will have you vote for to be the next President.

    ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. The air has become stale….I might even add, it is beginning to stink…….open the windows and let some fresh air blow in!!

  59. Maz said

    The last 4 lines of post #58 were for everyone else on this site.

  60. F. L. A. said

    Maz, how could the radio station NOT keep using the same topics over and over again? It is a winning recipe! See how many posts the other site on Christians voting/not voting for Oboma recieved in just a few days?

  61. Maz said

    F.L.A: But a Christian radio station should not be trying to get a ‘winning recipe’ for causing division and bad feeling among brethren. Are they more interested in how many posts they can get with each question or are they more interested in people knowing the truth from the Bible about these issues?

    I would hope that Stu and the others are in the second category.

  62. Tripp said

    Lauren & others,

    If Obama is elected and when he approves Sharia Law in this country please don’t say you weren’t warned.

    I hope we’re wrong, but the REAL evidence is out there. Some are just blind and in complete denial.

    I’ll move to Canada.

    Tripp

  63. Tripp said

    F.L.A. – It’s a hot-button topic that needs to be discussed. A very critical election. I’m sure once it’s over they will go back to covering other topics.

  64. Brad said

    Maz, it is not the fault of TTL for causing divisions. They are simply bringing up material, which people are choosing to react to in different ways. The problem is that not everyone has the same views. I would further say that some who profess to be Christians have incorrect views. It was shameful to hear some of the people who came on yesterday’s show, claiming to be Christians (Tonya comes to mind, though there were others whose names I don’t remember), yet hear their misunderstandings of Christianity and of the true stances of the politicians. If you want to know what gives Christianity a bad name, look no further than that.

    Everyone is so caught up in not judging. Most Christians are afraid to do so, b/c they’ve been instructed by the MSM that it’s not OK, and that anything other than a tolerant view simply isn’t acceptable in today’s time. Hogwash, says the Bible. The Bible doesn’t forbid Christians from judging; it does, however, caution us to be careful in how and when we do it, for we will be judged in like manner.

    All people, Christians (professing or otherwise) and non-Christians alike, seem to know the “judge not, lest ye be judged” verse from Matthew 7:1. How many people know what 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 says, on the topic of judging those who call themselves Christians? Here’s what it says: “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you.” If you study Scripture, you’ll see that God is very clear when it comes to those who profess to be Christians, yet it is clear from their actions, thoughts and words that they are not. You judge them, and do not associate with them. That’s why I find it funny (sad, really) when people call in, claiming to be Christian, saying “how dare you, how dare you say they’re not Christian.” It’s often not a hard judgment to make, given how free people are with saying what they think and believe.

    If a person says they’re a Christian, and you ask them “have you accepted Jesus in your heart, and do you believe He’s the only way to salvation?”, and the person says “No, I don’t really think I need to do that, I think there are many ways to Heaven, but I believe there is a God, and I’m spiritual, so I would call myself a Christian”, what do you think is our Christian duty? To say nothing, letting the person believe what they want, b/c we don’t want to judge them? On the contrary, it’s clear from what they’re saying that they have not received Christ in their life, and thus have not received salvation, yet are claiming to be Christian, and that should not go unaddressed. Where are the Christians who are not afraid to do that, despite what the world in general thinks, but instead cower in a corner like many of yesterday’s callers, afraid to call a spade a spade?

    I don’t hope to change anyone’s minds about these candidates. It’s your vote, and it’s up to you who to vote for, and only you answer to God for how you choose to cast it. But some people have some serious misconceptions about what the Bible truly says about many things, and that needs to be addressed.

    And let me state, up front, that I will not reply to anything that Stanley has to say on the matter. He is free to say whatever he wishes, however disparaging it may be towards me or Christianity in general – there will be no response to him from me. Yes, I will of course be able to read what he says, but I am choosing up front to ignore him. People with opinions such as his are best left ignored, in my opinion. You can choose to do the same to mine.

  65. Mike S. said

    I agree Brad. And your accurate claim about what our culture believes… “anything other than a tolerant view simply isn’t acceptable in today’s time.” does not even pass the test of its own claim. It’s an oxymoron.

    Tolerance in the name of intolerance!

  66. A said

    I very much agree with Lauren (post #55). Whether Obama is a Muslim is an awfully old and unnecessary discussion. The abortion debate is passionate and irreconcilable no matter how load anyone shouts. That being said, let’s move on for purposes of this discussion.

    Other than the abortion and gay rights issues, please explain in what ways you feel that McCain is more Christlike than Obama. If you feel conversely, what are your thoughts?

  67. A said

    er, ah, that would be LOUD…

  68. A said

    Maz,

    I love what you said to everyone in post #58. Do you get the radio show over there are do you just respond to the blog comments? I really like your contributions. I do not agree with all of them…but I really like them. You are definitely my sister in Christ.

    In His Steps…

  69. Jared said

    All!

    Stanley said: “Jared, you spelled “The lies of the bible,” wrong. You said “the truth of God’s word.” Easy mistake to make.”

    Cute, but you just made my point for me! Thank you!

    Nothing stirs up the atheists (God’s enemies) like the truth of God’s word!!!!!!!!!!

    Atheists are extraordinary at using the truth they say they don’t believe in! If only they could be consistent! Watch … more truth will be used to try and debunk the idea of absolute truth!!!!!!

  70. Maz said

    Brad: ”And let me state, up front, that I will not reply to anything that Stanley has to say on the matter. He is free to say whatever he wishes, however disparaging it may be towards me or Christianity in general – there will be no response to him from me. Yes, I will of course be able to read what he says, but I am choosing up front to ignore him. People with opinions such as his are best left ignored, in my opinion. You can choose to do the same to mine.”

    Actually I’v already decided myself to ignore Stanley.
    He just seems intent on making nonsensical statements that really don’t deserve an intelligent answer.

    And I do tend to speak out a lot when I hear error, whoever it comes from.
    I am not one to let erroneous teachings or beliefs go by without saying something. If it comes over to people as dogmatic or arrogant, I can’t help that. Error has to be corrected by the Word of Truth. That is what Timothy 3 v 16 says it is for. I hope however that I do it with some patience and love. (But it is hard sometimes!)

  71. Stanley said

    “Atheists are extraordinary at using the truth they say they don’t believe in!”

    ?

  72. Mike S. said

    I knew he wouldn’t get it.

  73. Maz said

    A #68: Reading that really encourages my heart. Thanks. You know, the thought just struck me (OUCH!!) that when we finally get to glory, how many that come on here will we see? I hope I shall see all of you…..those who are my brothers and sisters, and those of you who aren’t, who hopefully will one day come to know Christ as Savior before it is too late. No arguments in Heaven! I can’t wait.

  74. Stanley said

    Maz, you’re a young earth creationist. Just because you can’t understand evolution, doesn’t mean its nonsensical.

  75. Maz said

    Jared #69. I am surprised you havn’t come to the place of ignoring Stanleys nonsense yet?

    I’v just had a Deja Vu! Very weird feeling!

  76. Stanley said

    Not ? as in I don’t get it. ? As in, what truth of yours are we using?

    I’ll go ahead and tell you what I was going to say to your statement without reading it.

    Just because its in your book doesn’t make it your truth. Just because a belief is in the bible doesn’t mean that is why we think its a good belief.

  77. Jared said

    Maz

    Most of the time I do not acknowledge what Stanley says. His and all the other atheists never have any 1st order arguments. So it is pointless. Like I have made the point many times before, you cannot argue with someone who will not acknowledge they have presuppositions (Foundations of truth), even though they do. He can make any nonsensical argument he wants and it is totally self derived, according to him, back in the evil vs. good discussion. In this case he just proved my point so well, and it was far to good to pass up. And then, he even did exactly as I expected, and not because I am very smart, because it is so typical as with all Atheists, he didn’t get it. He can’t get it. He has no truth only his own opinions. That was even funnier … but very sad also. Until a mans eyes are opened he is effectively blind. I ignore most of the atheists comments, but when they can be used as a third order example shedding light upon a first order truth, then they are worth showing to all the other folks.

    Keep your eyes open. They do this all the time! The evolution discussion was loaded with them.

    You’ll notice when Paul argues in scripture … before he ever dives into the subject matter he establishes the framework of understanding … or world view … or religion. He sets a foundation up for arguing from the first order or fundamentals. Then he has something from which to launch his retoric (I mean this in the classical oratory scene). Then as you will notice the Atheists of his day and ours do what they classically do. They have no foundation from which to argue … in many cases, know they are backed into a corner, but cannot uphold any form of consistency, so their position quickly becomes “everyone believes what I believe accept you”, “Its all just my opinion against your opinion anyway”, or they try to destroy the truth giver “Jared, you spelled “The lies of the bible,” wrong. You said “the truth of God’s word.” Easy mistake to make.” The only other option is they don’t get it!!!!!!!!!!

    This is a typical progression. Where we have a rock to stand on, thy are being tossed about by however they feel at the moment!

  78. Stanley said

    Your rock is a lie.

  79. Lauren said

    In support of A’s #66 post, I challenge the McCain supporters here to read this article. I know, I know, it was in Rolling Stone, but if a fraction of it is true, it might bring some of you back to center. Naaaa, I didn’t think so, but read it anyway… if you dare.
    http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain

  80. Maz said

    Funny, someone on Christian TV spoke of Pauls speech on Mars Hill. And it speaks of the different reactions he got to what he said. v 32 says, ”And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked (1st reaction), and others said, We will hear you again on this matter. (2nd reaction) So Paul departed from among them. Nevertheless, certain men joined him, and believed, (3rd reaction)..”

    There will always be mockers in the bunch!

  81. Mike S. said

    Good points and advice Jared. One of my favorite passages is in Acts 17 where Paul addresses the philosophers of the day.

    The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being….

    In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

  82. Maz said

    My last post was in response to #77, and it also included v 33-34 of Acts 17.

  83. Maz said

    Mike: Did you post that before I posted mine?

  84. Stanley said

    Also, there will always be… well, hopefully not always… superstitious nutcases Like the third category of people.

  85. Jared said

    Maz and Others!

    See #78. He just did it again! He just cannot help it. He has no place to run. Watch … he may very well do it again!

    Incredible isn’t it!

    !

    With all seriousness, be thankful and honor your Lord that you are not still in the same condition with Stanley or better yet if you can never remember a day when you were blind. The Lord’s truth sets a man free from this sort of miserable blindness and the sin, which accompanies it. Remember, you did not enlighten your own eyes. As with Paul on the road to Damascus, only our God can open a mans eyes to the truth found in his word. This is why we should be the most thankful, joyful, humble …. people of all!!!!

    !

  86. Maz said

    Jared: Leave him alone and it may do him some good. Silence is golden.

  87. Jared said

    Before I leave this one for the day.

    Remember the words of Paul teaching the Romans
    What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:

    “None is righteous, no, not one;
    no one understands;
    !!!!no one seeks for God.!!!!
    All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    no one does good,
    not even one.”
    “Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
    “The venom of asps is under their lips.”
    “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
    “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    in their paths are ruin and misery,
    and the way of peace they have not known.”
    “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

    These were not Paul’s truths. They were God’s taken by Paul from the Psalms … specifically 14 and 53 (for the most part).

    So I can say with confidence, based on my Lord’s truth … Stanley will not see a thing until God changes his heart. You and I can only bear witness to the truth … as he commands us!

  88. Stanley said

    Ya’ll really don’t get the burden of proof, do you?

  89. Mike S. said

    Maz, one minute later it looks like. I did not see yours until after I posted. We are are connected even half way across the world huh?

    And Jared, actually I am very thankful to remember what it was like to be blind. It makes me awestruck when I look back and see the changes He has worked in my heart and life over these past 8 years!!

  90. Jared said

    Praise the Lord Mike!

  91. Maz said

    Mike: We have the same Spirit dwelling in us. Divine revelation. Great isn’t it, to be in touch with our God that way?!

  92. Stanley said

    The internet is a very impressive series of tubes.

  93. Stanley said

    Man you guys are crazy.

  94. Kash said

    “None is righteous, no, not one;
    no one understands;
    !!!!no one seeks for God.!!!!
    All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    no one does good, not even one.”
    “Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
    “The venom of asps is under their lips.”
    “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
    “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    in their paths are ruin and misery,
    and the way of peace they have not known.”
    “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

    These are very good words of warning to us Christians as well, particularly on this blog the part about curses and bitterness!

  95. F. L. A. said

    Jared, not ALL of us skeptics on this site are Athiest, you realize.

    Stanley, do not begrudge them their “Rock”.
    If it helps them become/be better people and enrich their lives, if it helps them help and enrich the lives of others, if it brings them and helps them bring others comfort, inner strength, and peace of mind during times of hardship or at that final moment of life before they leave this world for another one,….then let it be. It harms nothing.
    Save the criticism for topics[like science] that involve something other than the cosmic powers that be[or may be, in your case], for then you may have more solid ground to stand on. Metaphysics and theology are always tricky topics for debate and criticism.

  96. Kash said

    Stanley,
    From what you understand of Christ, if more Christians behaved like Him would you be more inclined to believe in Him? Just curious.

  97. Maz said

    Kash: I think you will find that that list is to show that Jews aswell as Greeks are all the same, all under sin, and all sinners needing a Savior. It later goes on to speak of the Christian who has been freely justified by Gods grace.

  98. Stanley said

    “From what you understand of Christ, if more Christians behaved like Him would you be more inclined to believe in Him? Just curious.”

    I would feel much more inclined to follow Christ, not as a demi-god, but as a moral teacher, which I already do to an extent. Someone would have to prove he is the son of God for me to believe that though.

    F.L.A., as far as asking for strength when you have none, to ask for a friend when yours are gone, to look for hope when you’re hopeless, I don’t blame Christians for turning to a God. But most of the Christians I know don’t need to believe in fairy tales for strength. They’re strong, good people. They don’t need mysticism to dictate their lives.

  99. response to Kash #12: Do not forget, my friend, that the Bible says that satan can appear as an angel of light. No Christian makes fun of Christianity or the Bible. No Christian makes fun of the Sermon of the Mount. No Christian would join Rev. Wright’s church for 20 years. No Christian supports abortion or homosexual marriage. No Christian would take the money of the rich by force through the social lifestyle but by the sweat of our face and the hard work we should take care of our needs.

  100. Stanley said

    I don’t think Obama appears as an angel of light, or maybe our definition of angel and light are different. I know what speech you’re alluding to, and he definitely wasn’t making fun of the bible or sermon on the mount. Tons of christians are pro-choice and pro-gay rights. Usama, if you’re sweating during your work, your taxes probably don’t fall into that 250,000 and up bracket.

  101. To Kash #15, What would Jesus do? When Jesus went to the temple and he saw the wickedness and sin on display, did he just smile and laugh and go about his business or did he clean the temple after becoming angry? The Bible never says to get angry is sin, for there IS a righteous anger. When i see people like youself, who are ignorant of what you are doing, to give the highest office in the United States to a known enemy. A muslim man, claiming to be a Christian. Advice to yui again, to go to my web site and watch the entire video about Obama. Perhaps then, you will understand why I am angry. It is because I love this country, and I love my Lord and my Savior, not because I hate Obama, I have nothing against him as a man. I have a problem with his religion and what he will do to our country

  102. To Kevdei #18, Yes, a muslim can be in a church like Obama’s church for 20 years because that is not a Christian church. This is a church that allows muslims to be members. This is a part of thier doctrine to allow muslims to be members. Please watch the video on my web site.

  103. To Kash #25, When Jesus spoke in John 15:9, 10, 12 he was speaking to his disciples, he was teaching them about love. he was not rebuking them. When he rebukes the pharisees,the priests and writers of the law, he said to them ‘woe to you’, he called them snakes and scorpions, and he called them white tombs full of rotten bones, and he also called them hypocrites. You need to read the entire Bible, sir.

  104. To Kash again #29, Sir, from the fruit we know the tree. Apples do not grow on banana trees. Are you born again Christian by any chance?

  105. Jared said

    Yes Maz:

    Now we can grieve with Paul at the blindness of our physical brothers and sisters who our God has not opened they eyes of, but we can rejoice with our spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ.

    Kash doesn’t see the whole text. She thinks men can be inclined to believe and do good work/s apart from God!

    Remember Ezeikiel 36

    “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.

    Paul says only a few verses later in chapter 3!

    But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded.

  106. To Kevdei #30, Yes, Christians should speak loud every 4 years about who should be the president. It is the most important office, but do not forget that we speak all year long against abortion, gay marriage, and many other issues. And BTW, the bible does not say “thou shall not kill”, but “Thou shall not commit murder”. The bible says, for those who commit murder, they must be killed.

  107. To Kash #32. Sin is sin, but we do not have to make it legal so it will not be sin. Your Obama is the one who wants to make sin legal, not McCain.

  108. To Stanley #34, How do you know it’s God’s will for Obama to be elected. Just because that is what you want? What if McCain wins? Will you change your mind?

  109. To Kash #42, It is not that because someone wrote in a book that they are a Christian makes them a Christian.Do not forget, my friend, that the Bible says that satan can appear as an angel of light. No Christian makes fun of Christianity or the Bible. No Christian makes fun of the Sermon of the Mount. No Christian would join Rev. Wright’s church for 20 years. No Christian supports abortion or homosexual marriage. No Christian would take the money of the rich by force through the social lifestyle but by the sweat of our face and the hard work we should take care of our needs.

  110. Stanley said

    To Usama 108

    Would you believe it is God’s will if Obama gets elected?

  111. To Stanley #47, What is Christianity to you, Stanley?

  112. Kash said

    Usama says:
    “When he rebukes the pharisees,the priests and writers of the law, he said to them ‘woe to you’, he called them snakes and scorpions, and he called them white tombs full of rotten bones, and he also called them hypocrites. You need to read the entire Bible, sir.”

    Just a reminder: the pharisees were the religious leaders of His day. Some of the religious leaders of our day have more in common with the pharisees than with Jesus and his disciples.

    You ask if I am a born again Christian. What does it matter to you whether I say I am or not, since you believe you can tell whether a person is or isn’t regardless of what they themselves claim? I disagree with you on so many issues, I am sure you won’t think I am a Christian even though I have been baptized and believe Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

  113. Kash said

    “Kash doesn’t see the whole text. She thinks men can be inclined to believe and do good work/s apart from God!”

    Where did I claim this?

  114. A said

    My question (post #66) may have genuinely been overlooked. I would like some feedback.

    The abortion debate is passionate and irreconcilable no matter how LOUD anyone shouts. That being said, let’s move on for purposes of this discussion. Other than the abortion and gay rights issues, please explain in what ways you feel that McCain is more Christlike than Obama. If you feel conversely, what are your thoughts?

  115. Yes To Stanley #47, What is Christianity to you, Stanley?

  116. Stanley said

    ABORTION IS MURDER AND OBAMA IS THE ANTI-CHRIST.

    Caps makes it true.

  117. To Lauren #55, Yes, it is old news. So is food. Have you eaten lately?

  118. Stanley said

    Christianity is a pretty good religion about a man who was nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be if everyone was nice to each other. It was a way of explaining how the world worked, when we had no clue. What started off as a well-intended set of rules has been outdated, and become the saddest joke anyone has ever played on the world.

  119. To Maz #58, I will congratulate you when muslims take over the USA exactly as when they took over Egypt in the past, and Europe in the past few years.

  120. Stanley said

    Ain’t no muslim taking over my country. If there is a religion I dislike more than Christianity, its Scientology, closely followed by Islam.

  121. To Tripp #62, They already practice Sharia law in Canada! America is the last place where muslims would like to take over on planet earth.

  122. Kash said

    “They already practice Sharia law in Canada! America is the last place where muslims would like to take over on planet earth.”

    And we all know what a thuggish, violent country Canada is! (joke)

  123. Stanley said

    I love Canada. Except I’m currently mad at the Habs, who got barely beat my ‘Canes last night.

  124. To Stanley #110, I believe God’s will will be established, but we must do everything we can to stop evil. If you see somebody is drunk driving a car, will you stop him or will you let him go because you think it is God’s will that he must kill somebody anyway?

  125. To Kash #112, We can disagree as Christians on so may issues, but no two Christians can disagree on apples to grow on banana trees.

  126. To A #114, I never said McCain is a Christian. I said Obama is for sure a muslim. Please watch my entire video on my web site.

  127. To Stanley #118, Stanley, Christianity is not a pretty good religion, it is a faith in Christ Jesus and a way of life.

  128. to Kash #122, The European and the Canadians have not yet seen what Islam is all about. So far, they only practice sharia law in England in two situations, marriage and divorce and inheritance. For muslims know how to boil a frog. Slow heat in a long period of time. Someday, they will stone the idolators and cut the hands and the feet and the heads of the athiests, and Christians will pay the jizya.

  129. Maz said

    One wonders who it is who will be beheading the believers in God in the Tribulation. Rev: 20 v 4.

  130. F. L. A. said

    Stanley, I think that you are being rather unfair in your judgment of modern Christianity within post#118.
    Some of it’s finest lessons such as “The Golden Rule” and many of the Commandments are shining examples of the behavior that, if humanity followed to the best of it’s abilities, could make the concept of world Peace a reality instead of a fantasy.
    Such fine examples should not ever be allowed to become outdated. Would you wish to exist within a world were such rules condemning behavior[accepted the world over by a multitude of unrelated faiths, or those without a faith.]universally agreed upon as negative and destructive no longer existed?

  131. Jared said

    Maz

    There are a lot of folks who believed this has already happened. The years following Christ’s death were awful.

  132. Stanley said

    That is the part that is not outdated, nor do I think will ever go out of date. The part that is out of date is the “God created the world in six days, then Noah build a boat for all the animals in the world, then Jesus walked on water,” part.

    I think there are better ways to have a good moral standard.

  133. Daryl said

    I’m not sure what all the debate is about when Barack Obama has addressed his position on religion several times. Check out the link below.

    http://isbarackobamamuslim.com/

  134. Stanley said

    A good point. Why would anyone that isn’t a racist think Obama is muslim?

  135. Maz said

    F.L.A: #130. I really believe that if you were a born-again, spirit filled believer you would be worse than I am for speaking against atheism and people like Stanley! You have strong convictions that lean in the right direction, that’s good.

  136. Maz said

    Jared. #131; There has been terrible persicution in many parts of the world and in many ages, even today, but in the Tribulation it will be as Jesus said, ”For then shall be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

    I heard something so encouraging yesterday that spoke of the Lords coming in the Rapture, I believe it is SO close. Lets look up, lets be ready, and lets be evangelisin the lost, for the time will soon come when it will be too late.

  137. Maz said

    Daryl: Thanks for the link. All I can say is, when you vote for Obama, or McCain, or Palin, you need to really be sure of the FACTS about your candidate and not just listen to the rumours and whoremongering that is going on, this is your future America….make sure it’s a safe one!

  138. Lauren said

    As much time as some of you spend on this site, I’d like to encourage you to take time off to listen to this sermon titled, “How Does God Vote?”. It does NOT try to encourage you to vote either way, so there’s no propoganda to be afraid of here. I do hope it would enlighten a few of you.

    http://gracecommunitychurch.org/sermons/

  139. Jared said

    Maz

    This is escatology we are discussing. You probably knew this. You are obviously a premillenialist. I am not. Most people of today are premil although historically it has had a relatively small following and it was called historical premillenialism. Today most folks in Christ church are being taught something called Dispensational Premillenialism. It is my contention that dipensationallism is a rather bankrupting theology as it pertains to the person and work of Christ. It has changed so much from its early roots in the late 1700s and early 1800s that even those who propose it cannot give it a systematic biblical explanation. In other words there has to be many gap theories. When Dallas seminary started teaching it broadly in the late 1800s it was taught that not all of Gods saints were saved by Christ throughout history. That he only saves the gentile church saints. Now you don’t find a very large contingent of the movement proposing that anymore. It has some very significant conflicts with the first text I placed below. Remember these things (escatology) are fun to discuss, but they should never divide Christ’s church as long as they do not diminish the person and work of Jesus Christ. I would contend that while premil escatology doesn’t do this, dispenstionalism does. I have read excellent stuff by historical premillenialists such as A.W. Pink and very good works by Post Millenialists also. I happen to be an Amillenialist. Yes, you are correct. That was in 30 something AD. When Christ made this statement. In 70 AD the temple was destroyed as Christ had predicted earlier in the same chapter. Josephus, a Jew that was hated by the Jewish people and to this day, documented such horrific things as could not be discussed here, about his own people, during a couple of years leading up to and several after the fall of Jerusalem. The shear number of Jews that died at that time was amazing and the fledgling church was not long after that being fed to lions and being tortured in such horrific ways that again cannot be discussed here (read Eusebius to get a feel for it). Heresy was run a muck as Eusebius points out, also. And before the fall of Jerusalem there were several instances people can point to as the abomination of desolation.

    For example here are two texts from the book to the Hebrews that give first dispensationalism and second premellinialism problems.

    Hebrews 10: 11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

    15And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
    16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
    after those days, declares the Lord:
    I will put my laws on their hearts,
    and write them on their minds,”

    Hebrews 1: 1Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (Remember the audience this was written too in 60ish AD)

    Obviously, regardles of our differing escatological view points Christians don’t need to argue that we are one day closer to the return of Christ than we were yesterday. There have been folks predicting the end of the world for almost 2000 years now. I think it would be pretty arrogant to be with the John Haggies of the world who keep on predicting even though scirpture says not even the angels know. And it really doesn’t matter the day or hour for us anyway. Christ will return and until then He will sustain his Church. We need not worry of fret, just be busy doing his work be it ever so feeble as we do.

  140. Maz said

    Lauren: Great Link! Just to repeat what I said on the other site, this was worth listening to. Really good sermon! I encourage every Christian on here to lisetn whatever side you think you are on. Is this your Church?

  141. Maz said

    Jared: Pre-A-Post-Mid…..I just know that the signs of the Times are showing that Christs return for Hid Church is very near. We may not know the day or the hour but we can, as Jesus said, know the seasons. Israel becoming a nation again after 2500 years is one of the biggest signs in Gods calendar. 1948 was a miracle.
    So I just get spurred on to evangelise more and be ready for when He comes.

    And I have a copy of ”Foxes Book of Martyrs” so I have read some of the accounts of the persicution that was perpetrated against Gods people. Horrendous as you say.

  142. Stanley said

    Oh noes, not the apcololypse. The creation of Israel was so spontaneous and amazing! Its almost like we did it ourselves. Like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  143. Jared said

    Maz

    But what is the point of Israel (really only Judah) becoming a nation again? Israel was drug away and destroyed in 800 BC already and Judah in 600BC and He says “for His own names sake”. God said he would restore them (Judah) once and did in Ezra’s time and by Cyrus’s (Persian King) decree who parenthically he changed the heart of (Ezra 1: In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia), but no additional revelation was given to say they would be established after Christ. In fact now they can’t even determine any clear lineage for either of the remaining tribes of Judah (so the Levitical preisthood cannot be established and quite honestly no one can say they are even true Hebrew “Israelites”), the temple has been destroyed according to God’s purpose and prophetic decree due to there being no necessity for it any longer. The Types and Shadows are no longer.

    Folks have been saying they know the season for 2000 years. Just ask yourself “am I that much smarter than all the folks that predicted the end was upon them in the 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, not to mention the all the centuries prior to that and in fact the last one. Don’t discount your brothers who believe that Christ may not return for many centuries or perhaps millenia yet. Don’t discount the fact that the writer of Hebrews call their time (60ish AD) “These Last Days”. It could be that these last days refers to a season lasting from the death of Christ till the end of the world as we know it when Christ returns. Something to think about anyway. The eschatology is fun, but be careful of the dispensationalism that has propagated a form of premil. The dispensationalism is dangerous at it very clearly erodes the person, work, and finality, of Jesus Christ our Savior.

  144. Grant said

    There was alot of flack the other day (yes, I am just getting to the board) about Usama saying Obama is not a Christian. Here is the problem with asking people if they are Christians. Most people say “Yes”. BUT, ask people if they are born again, and you will get the truth most times. Those who would answer ‘yes’ to being a Christian who really aren’t are much much more likely to stammer and stutter while trying to figure out how to answer whether they have been born again.

    Jesus NEVER told anyone how to be a Christian. He told us how to be born again.
    Paul NEVER told anyone how to be a Christian. He told us how to be saved.

    “Christian” has become such a watered down word, it doesn’t hold meaning anymore, while terms such as ‘born again’, ‘saved’, ‘washed in the Blood of Christ’ make people nervous. And those who are nervous by the question, or cannot simply answer “YES”, but try to skirt around the question with a half-baked answer, are the ones who by their own answer show what they truly believe.

    I wish someone would ask Obama these questions, and see how he deals with them.

  145. Brad said

    Excellent post, Grant.

  146. Maz said

    Jared; ”…dispensationalism is dangerous at it very clearly erodes the person, work, and finality, of Jesus Christ our Savior.”

    Knowing that Christs return is imminent does not erode the person, work and finality of Jesus Christ my Savior in my eyes. But I’m not sure what you actually mean by that anyway.
    And it is dangerous to think we have decades, hundreds or even longer until Christ comes back….it can make Christians lethargic, unready for what God is going to do.

    There is much scripture to support Jesus soon coming in the clouds for His Church.

    And as far as Israel is concerned, just read Romans 11 prayerfully.

  147. Maz said

    I agree with Brad about Grants good post.
    Going to Church, even for 20 years, does not make someone a Christian, not in the true sense of that name.
    Praying, reading the Bible, singing hymns, nor anything religious makes a person a true Christian.

    Has no one actually asked Obama those questions then?
    Anyone can speak as if they are a Christian, use the language and quote scripture even, but it’s what is in their heart. I think you can tell when someone REALLY knows Christ as their Savior, it should be obvious to another child of God. We are family after all….or should be.

  148. To F.L.A. #130, Could you explain to me “modern Christianity”?

  149. To Stanley #132, The fact of 6 day creation helps us to know how great our God is, who created the world from nothing, in such short time. It helps us also to realize we need to rest on the 7th day. As for Noah’s ark, I think you do not realize the size of the boat. It is larger than a football field. Read the discription in the Bible. It is an awesome lesson for us to know the judgement of God and his punishment of sin. It is very important for our moral standard before a holy, righteous God.

  150. To Stanley #132, The fact of 6 day creation helps us to know how great our God is, who created the world from nothing, in such short time. It helps us also to realize we need to rest on the 7th day. As for Noah’s ark, I think you do not realize the size of the boat. It is larger than a football field. Read the discription in the Bible. It is an awesome lesson for us to know the judgement of God and his punishment of sin. It is very important for our moral standard before a holy, righteous God. Jesus walked on water to remind us that he is the creator of the 6 days of Genesis and he is the just God of Noah’s flood. The one who showed us the love of God on the cross, when he died for the sins of the world to bring us back to the right relationship of God as it was in the beginning of the creation before the fall. That we may have the right moral standards before God. You see my friend, the Bible is one book, and it all ties together.

  151. Jared said

    Maz

    You miss understood, but that is OK. Lots of folks have never been taught or studied anything contrary to dispensationalism (it is a framework for understanding scripture). To be honest when this heretical teaching got started in the 1820s due to Darby’s influence and later was propagated by Scofield it has had a strangle hold on the majority of the protestant church here in the US ever since. According to Charles Ryrie, “informed dispensationalists” do not “assert that the system was taught in postapostolic times…. They recognize that, as a system, dispensationalism was largely formulated by Darby” in the 1800s, though they also contend that “the outlines of a dispensationalist approach to the Scriptures are found much earlier.” And Ryrie holds to dispensationalism.

    Now the above is not a comment on Historic Premil. I respect the historic premil position as you clearly hold. I don’t agree with it, but have a working knowledge of it. And they would believe just as you do, but do not hold that the temple will need to be rebuilt or that the sacrificial system will be reinstated or that anyone is saved in any other way than through Christ. They also would contend as I would that God will save many Jews as you have pointed out with Romans 11, but certainly not all of them as dispensationalism has often proposed. There are currently many Christain Jews in Israel, Palestine, and around the world.

    All Christians believe Christ will return in Glory. This isn’t the issue. However, Dispensationalism has at its root, that God has dealt with His people differently throughout history in a salvific sense. In other words the Church or God’s saints are only those who came to saving faith post Pentecost. That those, prior to Jesus death on the cross, were indeed saved by the sacrificial system and that sacrificial system will need to return in the future for the Jews to be saved. This is why in traditional dispenstationalism it is so key that the temple be rebuilt. This is why I say “dispensationalism is dangerous as it very clearly erodes the person, work, and finality, of Jesus Christ our Savior.” It clearly contradicts Hebrews 10 Hebrews 10: 11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

    I am curious why you believe it is dangerous to think we have decades, hundreds or even longer before Christ comes. I want God to save the full measure of His people. If that happens tomorrow great if it happens two thousand years from now so be it. I think we have to be very careful when we begin to put constraints on God that He has not clearly defined in his word or for that matter don’t put constraints on ourselves where God has clearly called for them.

    Acts 1 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and(L) to the end of the earth.”

    The eschatologies are interesting and fun to talk about. The framework of our understanding scripture … in other words …God’s revelation about Himself and how he interacts with His people is critical.

    If you hold that a man can be saved apart from the righteous work of Jesus Christ and His payment in full on the Cross for the sins of His saints, as historical dispensationalism has, then you have eroded the person and work of Christ Jesus our Savior. Fortunately, a good number within the leadership of historically dispensational churches see the heretical nature in this and though they have no foundation or framework for understanding scripture they do not hold to dispensationalism as it was historically taught.

  152. Jared said

    Yes Grant … I agree … good post. When Brian Williams on NBC calls the christian scientists ….. Christians! The term has become meaningless.

    I like ‘born again’, ’saved by my Lord’s righteousness’, ‘washed in the Blood of Christ’ much better!

  153. Maz said

    Jared: Amos 9 v 14,15 says, ”And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant the vineyards, and drink their wine; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land; and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord, they God.”

    This is exactly what has happened to them since 1948.

    Israel shall reinstate the sacrifices in a new temple in unbelief. Already they have made the utensils for the temple and are training priests to serve in that temple. There is also tal of a red hefer being found which would be used for their ceremonies.

    I do not put any constraints on God, I read His word and see what His plan is for me, for the Church, for the nations, and for Israel. I believe what I believe from scripture.

    ”Acts 1 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.”

    Do you note that He didn’t tell them He wouldn’t restore the kingdom to Israel. He spoke of the times and seasons concerning when this would take place.

    ”If you hold that a man can be saved apart from the righteous work of Jesus Christ and His payment in full on the Cross for the sins of His saints, as historical dispensationalism has, then you have eroded the person and work of Christ Jesus our Savior.”

    I certainly do not hold that anyone can be saved apart from what Jesus did on the cross.

    Tell me do you believe anyone in the OT was ‘saved’, before Christ died on the cross?

  154. Jared said

    Maz … you almost have it … it is right in front of you.

    Acts 1 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to *them*, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.”

    “Do you note that He didn’t tell them He wouldn’t restore the kingdom to Israel. He spoke of the times and seasons concerning when this would take place.”

    Yes … you are exactly correct … now read the next verses as if He is speaking to you.

    8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

    Why did He immediately tell *them* this. Why did He place Jerusalem first and then Judea and then Samaria just in the order the new testiment church was formed. Ask yourself? Why does he say we have been Grafted in. The Church is seamless from beginning to end. Al one church of the Lord Jesus Christ all saved by HIM.

    He is restoring the Kingdom … it is just now we (gentiles) get to be part of it. It always was and always is those who were either looking forward to what Christ would do or us (including the Christian Jews) looking back at what he did do and trusting in Him and His work alone for salvation!!!!

    I know you might not agree with me on this, but at least now you have a different perspective that sees Christ as the Savior of Abel all the way to the last person our God saves, before the Lord Jesus Christ returns. One church saved by one act of God.

  155. Jared said

    Parenthetically there were many gentiles that got to be part of the invisible Church (God’s saved people) before Christ came! Ruth, Rahab, Job, Abel, etc…

  156. Maz said

    Jared: Yes, the disciples were born-again believers…but they also knew the promises for their nation Israel.

    How can anyone read Romans 11 and not see the truth that God has a special place for that nation in the end times? Against all odds it has become (like no other nation that ever existed) a nation again. This is prophecy fulfilled.

    And it will all be accomplished because of Christs work at Calvary. Israel shall recognise their Savior one day and they will mourn because they rejected Him so long ago. But they shall be saved by Gods mercy. Rom 11 v 26.

  157. Jared said

    Maz

    We just disagree on eschatological things. I see one plan of salvation for one people all along. Yes many of the Jews of today will become saved people, but I don’t see two different plans. I see Jesus telling His Apostles and the Disciples that you are Israel … if you were not a Jewish Christian before … you have been grafted in … He is rebuilding, “as they asked” His Kingdom from this time forward and the Holy Spirit will come upon them at Pentecost.

    8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

    I see how this could be miss interpreted, but only if you don’t look at the context:

    Romans 11

    1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (Paul points to himself as an example of not being rejected)

    2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? (Not all Israel was ever saved only those God foreknew and changed the hears of then he uses the prophets words to make his point)

    3″Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” (Elijah may have felt like he was the only one left, but God chose 7000 others who were His people.)

    4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”

    (Look at the divine response … even in that day he had kept for himself a people though the rest rejected)

    5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. (Now Paul ties the older example to his current day as an example of the same … God will save some of the Jews. Others will be hardened see below)

    6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; (He even goes on to say Israel was looking for an earthly king, but they didn’t get it, but those who were chosen did get it. They have it. A KING … The Lord Jesus Christ. And the rest were ….. hardened.

    8just as it is written,
    “GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
    EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
    DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”

    9And David says,
    “LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
    AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
    10″LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
    AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”

    Hey … this is a lot better than the next subject matter. Choosing based on Skin color only shows men’s depraved nature. Thought people call themselves Christians they act like evolutionistic atheists!

    Got to go … have a great night … even though we disagree on eschatological subject matter it is a lot of fun.

  158. Stanley said

    If God is all powerful, why does he need to rest?

  159. Lauren said

    Maz, Yes this is my church in Greensboro, North Carolina.

  160. Grant said

    Stanley : “If God is all powerful, why does he need to rest?”

    No one said he needed to.

  161. F. L. A. said

    Maz, post#135,….Yes, is that not odd? I do have a FEW morals and standards that I exist by. I do not have to be evil ALL the time[Huge sharp-toothed grin]. This is just another example of me giving credit were I believe that credit is due.

  162. Maz said

    F.L.A: I think you make yourself far too evil, especially with some of the things you say on here. You do have a heart inside you.

  163. Stanley said

    Am I completely evil Maz?

  164. F. L. A. said

    Well Maz, I am not as evil as once I was, that is true. I would guess that I am right now roughly only 2/5ths evil, but this is just an optimistic evaluation.
    It stands to reason that I may have some form of a heart, I just do not know where it is.

  165. Stanley said

    I think you’re very not evil F.L.A., if its any consolation.

  166. F. L. A. said

    Thank you Stanley, and although I may be wrong I feel the same way about you.

  167. Kash said

    Hey Jared,
    I happen to agree with you in regards to dispensationalism. If I had to put a label on it, I would call myself an amillenialist but mostly I just try not to add anything to what Jesus specifically said about the end times, and I try interpret everything in Daniel, Ezekial, and Revelations in light of what Jesus said about the matter.

  168. Maz said

    Stanley #163. No you aren’t, but you are a sinner needing a Savior, and very much deceived and confused.

  169. Maz said

    F.L.A: #164. Do you feel a beat from the area of your chest? Then you have blood pumping through your body and you are a human being like the rest of us, just not on the right track yet.
    2/5th’s evil is 3/5’s good, that is, as far as earthly standards go. Our goodness ofcourse is like filthy rags before God, but you may be changing Oh-so slowly into the person God wants you to be.

  170. Jared said

    Kash

    You don’t believe in dispensationalism ?but know what it is?, you were baptized in a baptist church (do you know what typical baptist believe concerning eschatology), ?you think voting for Osama is something Christians should consider?, you think abortion is sort of an issue maybe?

    I can’t follow you Kash. I would be really be curious what you believe concerning the person and work of Christ, how a person is saved and if that is the only way, how all things came to be, what the church is and what defines it.

    The only guy I know who is like you, (and we are good friends) is a Mennonite guy. He just doesn’t know any scripture and admittedly he says he never really reads all that much scripture. Just what he like. Unfortunately that characterizes most of the church.

    Your throwing folks for a loop here. At this point and I could be wrong most of what you believe isn’t particularly scriptureal or consistent for that matter, but I could be wrong.

    What kind of Church do you currently worship in and do you typically hold to those doctrines. That may be the best way for me to figure you out. Generally listening to peoples comments and knowing these aspects of their Faith, weather it is Atheism, Buddhist, Muslimthis, New Age isn’t that hard.

  171. Kash said

    If you want to “figure me out”, I am a disciple of Christ. I take the gospels literally, particularly the part in red letters, and keep that in mind when reading the rest of scripture. I currently attend a southern Baptist Church because it is the church closest to my house, and I believe in going to church and serving in my community. I have great respect for Mennonites, especially their pacifism.

    If you read the Southern Baptist faith and message, it does not specify a specific eschatological view. Unfortunately, many southern baptists don’t know that.

    I read the Bible when I was a teenager, and then started going to church. I found that most of the people who had been going to church much longer than I had, had actually read much less of the Bible. I read the Bible or theological books more often than any other type, but I also like a good mystery. I also read The Economist every week and Sojourners pretty regularly, and Christianity Today every so often.

    It doesn’t bother me if I don’t hold “typical” views, as long as I think they are in line with what Christ would want me to do, insofar as I can determine that from the way he interacted with his fellow man while he was in human form.

    There are many people in my church who can’t “figure me out” either, but they know me and know I love the Lord and that everything I do and everything I believe comes out of a sincere desire to work for the Kingdom.

  172. Jared said

    Kash

    Thanks for the info. I think this clears a few things up.

    I think the issue is that the people here, look at Osama’s (my naming) voting record in the senate, and his associations, his church, and his comments, support of homosexuality, and partial birth abortion (not to mention abortion in general), and see a man that is highly inconsistent with what God’s word says with regard to these issues.

    The same to perhaps a slightly lesser degree could be said of Cactus John.

    Both claim to be christians, but hold positions that are highly inconsistent with many of God’s explicit commands on the subject mater above not to mention the other issues that can be deduced.

    I wouldn’t argue with you that many other issues are also very relevant that are not the hot button issues for the broadly evangelical church. However, I do believe we can, when people clearly demonstrate their lack of repentance and support of debauchery, say with confidence they do not belong to Christ’s church. For example. If someone says I am a Christian practicing homosexual and I am married to my same sex partner and that is great with me, then we can say this person has no repentance of sin and is not a christian and should be put out of the body of Christ as Paul clearly taught the Church in Corinth. This doesn’t mean you don’t allow them in the church doors, it simply means they have none of the privileges associated with being a member in the body of Christ and that is a significant number of privileges. Honestly, if the church is preaching God’s truth expositorily they wont stay in the church. The same would go for someone who had no shame of, or supported the right of a person to abortions at any age.

    That is why the people are saying here what they are saying about Osama … and honestly I can’t believe that the church in general is supporting McCain. I do not believe in good conscience and given what I have discussed above how either of these candidates can be considered legitimate options for Christians. Either way God’s Will will be done.

  173. Maz said

    Kash: How did you actually get ‘saved’? When were you ‘born-again’? Are you filled with the Holy Spirit? You say you love the Lord, and you probably do in your way, but I get the feeling that something is missing.

  174. F. L. A. said

    Maz, I do not have a chest.

  175. Kasha said

    Jared,
    Yes, I entirely agree with those who are voting against Obama from that standpoint. That is a thoughtful, sincere, reasonable way of viewing the two candidates. I happen to think there is another thoughtful, sincere,reaonable way of looking at the two candidates that leads me to choose Obama. What I take issue with is the shrill, fearful, apolcolyptic view of Obama that many use as a reason for voting against him. And I continue to maintain that he is a Christian, even though I disagree with him on certain issues.

    Maz,
    Sigh. I will never convince you that I am really a Christian until I universally condemn abortion and everyone who might have one, and universally condemn homosexuals and everyone who might be one, and agree with you that Genesis CHapter 1 has to be seven 24 hour earth days. That’s ok, its not you who will determine who gets in and who doesn’t when we are all giving an account of ourselves before God.

    But just for the sake of it: I have had two “visions” of Jesus. One was when I was about 11 years old, and that’s when I started reading the Bible. The second was on Palm Sunday 1991 in a little methodist church in the middle of the hill country in Texas about to go on a mission trip to Mexico. At both of those moments I was “filled with the Holy Spirit” in a very real and tangible way. The rest of the time the HOly Spirit is quieter, but still present.

    You may think something is missing, but I am complete in my Lord. What I think is missing from this world is a more loving spirit among His followers. We must never forget the suffering of individuals when we are taking on general ethical/legal causes.

  176. Maz said

    Kash: Don’t confuse my questioning whether you are a Christian with an unloving spirit. I love people FULL STOP. And whether you were a Christian or not, I would still love you with the love of the Lord.
    I have never had any visions of Jesus, but He is real to me whether I see Him or not, because He lives in me.
    And just because you stand for abortion being made legal does not negate your Christianity, but it certainly puts a question mark there that is all.

  177. Maz said

    F.L.A: Then what is between your neck and your waist? As they say in ‘Alice in Wonderland’, ”curiouser and curiouser”.

  178. F. L. A. said

    No waist either.
    Nevermind, only know that I am not formed as you are Maz.

  179. Maz said

    F.L.A: So let me get this straight, you have legs coming out of your shoulders?? 😉

  180. F. L. A. said

    Shoulders?

    I told you that I was weird.

  181. F. L. A. said

    Shoulders?
    I told you that I was weird.
    No more hints, Maz.

  182. F. L. A. said

    Darn.
    I did not mean to do that twice[I hate making mistakes].

  183. Bill said

    In the last days they will not endure sound doctrine. Don’t confuse them with the facts.
    I will send strong delusion so they will believe a lie.

  184. John said

    “I” will send strong delusion, Bill?

  185. Maz said

    John: Bill is quoting God in the Bible.

  186. John said

    Sounds more like something your Satan would have said.

  187. To Maz 153, Yes there are many people who were saved in the old testament, by faith. read Hebrews, chapter 11.

  188. Maz said

    Usama: I agree, I was asking Jared because I wanted to know whether he believed that. Ofcourse it was still what Christ accomplished on the cross, but they were looking forward by faith in the promises of God, as did Abraham.

  189. To Stanley #158, When the bible says, God rested from his work in the Hebrew text, it means that God ended his work, not that God was tired and he rested. Read also when Solomon was the King of Israel, the land rested for 40 years, which means there was peace on earth for 40 years that there was no war. Does the earth get tired too?

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