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Should a Bible-Believing Christian Vote for Obama?

Posted by truthtalklive on October 27, 2008

Why? or Why not?  Is Obama’s position on abortion relevant? Check out today’s Focus on the Family broadcast.
 

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173 Responses to “Should a Bible-Believing Christian Vote for Obama?”

  1. Jared said

    I am philosophically sure this is not conscientiously possible. If someone claims that they are a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ and is going to vote for someone who mocks, their stated Lord’s, Jesus Christ, word and law, then one must immediately deduce one or both of the following are possible:

    The person is not conscientious

    And/or

    The person is not a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ

  2. Charlotte McNichols said

    Here is the article from truthorfiction.com about the conncection between Obama & Ayers:

    Controversy Over Senator Obama’s Relationship With William Ayers-Truth!

    Summary of the eRumor:
    An eRumor claiming that Senator Barack Obama had a long association with a known domestic terrorist by the name of William Ayers who took part in the bombing of the Pentagon

    The Truth:
    Ayers was a founding member of a radical group known at the Weather Underground that carried out bombings of federal buildings including the Pentagon and the U.S. Capitol in the 1960’s. It was in protest of the Vietnam war. Ayers and his wife Bernadine Dohm spent a decade as fugitives from the FBI, which classed the Weather Underground as a “domestic terrorist group.” They resurfaced in 1980 after charges against them were dropped because of misconduct in collecting evidence against them. They both became professors in Chicago where Ayers was an education professor at the time that he became a campaign controversy in 2008. Ayers has been unrepentant about his Weather Underground activities and has been quoted as saying they “didn’t do enough.”

    The nature of Barack Obama’s relationship with William Ayers was a subject talked about among his critics during the 2008 presidential campaign, but it became a major issue when Republican Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin brought it to the campaign trail in a speech in California on October 4, 2008. She said, “”Our opponent is someone who sees America as imperfect enough to pal around with terrorists who targeted their own country.”

    Supporters of Obama said that contact between the two men was not that significant and pointed to a New York Times story that said their relationship consisted of attending board meetings of two Chicago organizations they were involved with and other than that, there had been no contact between them except bumping into each other on the sidewalk in the neighborhood in which they both lived. Obama’s “Fight the Smears” web site called the accusations about the Obama-Ayers connection “phony, tenuous, and exaggerated at best, if not outright false.” The Obama site accused his critics of trying to link him with terrorism or approving of terrorism. Critics said a special investigations unit composed of Drew Griffin and Kathleen Johnston from CNN looked into the Ayers story and concluded that “the relationship between Obama and Ayers went deeper, ran longer and was more political than Obama — and his surrogates.”

    The CNN story said that:

    A review of board minutes and records by CNN show Obama, crossed paths repeatedly with Ayers at board meetings of the Annenberg Challenge Project in Chicago.

    For seven years, Ayers and Obama — among many others — worked on funding for education projects, including some projects advocated by Ayers.

    While working on the Annenberg project, Obama and Ayers also served together on a second charitable foundation, the Woods Fund, and that among the Woods Fund recipients was the Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s Trinity United Church where Obama had his church membership.

    Obama praised Ayers’ book on the subject of juvenile justice in a 1997 Chicago Tribune review, calling it “a searing and timely account of the juvenile court system, and the courageous individuals who rescue hope from despair.

    On a September 23, 2008, the Wall Street Journal published an article written by Stanley Kurtz called “Obama and Ayers Pushed Radicalism On Schools. ” In it Kurtz claims that Barack Obama’s relationship with William Ayers is more than that of just having served together on the board of the educational non profit organization Chicago Annenberg Challenge (CAC) and that “Barack Obama’s first run for the Illinois State Senate was launched at a 1995 gathering at Mr. Ayers’s home.”

    According to the article, “in early 1995, Mr. Obama was appointed the first chairman of the board, which handled fiscal matters. Mr. Ayers co-chaired the foundation’s other key body, the ‘Collaborative,’ which shaped education policy.” Kurtz raised a question in this article as to how “a former community organizer fresh out of law school, could vault to the top of a new foundation?” Even though the Obama campaign had issued a statement denying Ayres recruitment of Obama, Kurtz observed that “Mr. Ayers founded CAC and was its guiding spirit. No one would have been appointed the CAC chairman without his approval.”

    The New York Times published an article by Scott Shane about the Senator’s relationship with Ayers on October 3, 2008 called “Obama and ’60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths.” In it, Shane wrote, “Their paths have crossed sporadically since then, at a coffee Mr. Ayers hosted for Mr. Obama’s first run for office, on the schools project and a charitable board, and in casual encounters as Hyde Park neighbors.”

    Shane talked to Obama Campaign spokesman Ben LaBolt, who told him “they have not spoken by phone or exchanged e-mail messages since Mr. Obama began serving in the United States Senate in January 2005 and last met more than a year ago when they bumped into each other on the street in Hyde Park.”

  3. Jim said

    You can either vote your conscience, or vote your pocketbook. Although some vote their zipper.

    30 million dead babies is not a “wedge issue”, it is a national tragedy

  4. Ed said

    Obama’s story of his relationship has changed more times than a parent changes the diaper of a baby with diarrhea.

    At first Obama floated the story, “we just live in the same neighborhood and see each other in passing.”

    Then when more facts of his long term relationship come to light, the story changes again, “we were on one board together a long time ago but were not close.”

    The story keeps changing as more light is shed.

    I find it very hard to trust someone who cannot give a straight answer to a straight question but instead obfuscates, floats various versions that are contradictory to the facts, outright lies and uses diversionary tactics to try to shift the focus away from things that are clear he wants kept hidden.

    Also, as far as the talking point, “Obama was eight years old when Ayers was a terrorist”, goes, Ayers is still a terrorist in his heart and has never denounced his Marxist/Leninist/ Stalinist ideals but rather continues to preach them as an avowed godless Marixist who believes that Marxist revlolution in American should come as Lenin said, “At the barrel of a gun”.

    Obama has never denounced his Marxist ideas either.

    Obama may say that he denounces Ayer’s terrorist activities, but Obama also said at first that he barely knew Ayers and said that he never heard Rev. Wright communicate the racist beliefs Wright subscribes to either.

    Can anyone truly believe that in 20 years of sitting in Wright’s church, with Wright being Obama’s closest advisor, as Obama characteried their relationship, with Wright being a long term political advisor to Obama, that in all that time and close personal relationship that Obama never heard Wright’s racist commentaries?

    One would have to be incredibly dense not to have ever heard Wright’s racist commentaries, which would disqualify them for president for being that stupid, or would have to be terribly naieve, also a disqualification, or one would have to be lying, again making them untrustworthy.

  5. Maz said

    Jim: Your last line is absolutely right.
    Absolutely tragic.

  6. Jared said

    Awesome Jim! Those are the fundamentals! Why argue about all the rest. So what …. he is a scum ball. If he gets elected it will be because of the scum balls, and I mean all of us.

  7. kevdei said

    First it was us Christians that made this an issue in the first place. Just like we went to sleep on the abortion issue we are asleep on the gay issue. If we are going to make a stand make one and not wait till an election year and make it some kind of battle cry..Next this whole thing wreak of racisim in the worst way and i pray for us who has let Stu (springer) eperson drag us into this mess.

    I couldn’t beleive my ears when this pastor says God is going to be concerned about who you voted for when He has already ordained and order the foot steps of the next president.

    And can some one please tell me whe we keep putting words in peoples mout :Never mind that is to get people to use the visual side of there brains to skew a thought.

    Also can someone show me in the bible were god says abortion is wrong and if it is there and yes i hope it is show me where it says we are to ignore everything else..

    Over 95% of the abortions performed in the world today are with women who simply do not want to have a baby. we need to change the thiniking..Bush has been in office for 8 years whtat’s change ,,the level of the rheteric that’s all..

    For those who have had an abortion – the sin of abortion is no less forgivable than any other sin. Through faith in Christ, any and all sins can be forgiven (John 3:16; Romans 8:1; Colossians 1:14). A woman who has had an abortion, or a man who has encouraged an abortion, or even a doctor who has performed one – all can be forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ.

    This is what God says will not inherit the kingdom..Are you guys under the banner of i want Mccain to win the white house condeming this man to hell..Is this whaty you are praying for..

    1 Corinthians 6:9 (New King James Version)
    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

    I am so glad that wtru has so much to offer..Christian Thinker

  8. Kasha said

    I can understand and respect those who won’t vote for Obama because he is for keeping abortion safe and legal. The jump from there to accusing him of personally killing babies seems a bit unChristian to me, but whatever.

    What I don’t understand is how quickly these “Christian” folks, who like question the Christianity of anyone who disagrees with them, go from there to calling him and all of his supporters “scum balls”. Not much of a Christian witness. But that is what happens when Christians engage in partisan politics. THe guest stated he would not want to face Jesus if he had voted for a pro choice candidate. I do not want to face Jesus having behaved in an unChristian manner in order to elevate one party or the other.

  9. kevdei said

    Since McCain and the GOP want to make such a big deal out of the fact that Obama sat on a foundation board regarding education reform with William Ayers I think it’s our responsbility to look at who else is a terrorist sympathizer:

    Newsvine – Ayers Connection: Did you Know Annenberg Founder is HUGE GOP DONOR ?

    Walter & Leonore Annenberg – founder who gave Bill Ayers a $49M grant. His widow, Leonore, has endorsed McCain. In fact, just yesterday the McCain Campaign released its list of Ambassadors supporting him. It included, Mrs. Annenberg, a former “chief of protocol” at the State Dep’t under the Reagan Administration. A Republican, she also DONATED THE MAX OF $2300 TO McCAIN’S CAMPAIGN IN MAY 2008.
    David Kearns – former Deputy Secretary of Education under Bush I; former CEO of Xerox; Chairman of NASDC, a Bush I reform initiative for Education; WORKED FOR & DONATED TO McCAIN’S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN IN 2000 AND AGAIN IN 2008.
    Arnold Weber – former member of Nixon Administration; former President of Northwestern University and U of Colorado. Board Member of Tribune Company. DONATED TO McCAIN’S CAMPAIGN.
    Dr. Patricia Albjerg Graham, Deborah Leff, Adele Smith Simmons, Vartan Gregorian, Ted Sizer, Warren Chapman and Anne Hallett

    Woods Foundation

    Presbyterian Minister Cynthia Campbell serves on the Board on the Woods Fund
    today’s Wood Fund’s eight-member board includes three academics, a civic leader, a former Illinois state senator and executives from the BP oil company, UBS investment bank and Sahara Enterprises

  10. DA said

    And so why has George Bush not stopped abortion? He hasn’t, and John McCain won’t either. Oh, I know you’ll make all sorts of excuses, like he doesn’t have the power, etc.. Please… that didn’t stop him from going to war. The tragedy is that the Republican party is using you people, and you are too blind to see it.

    My advice this November: Stay home and refuse to be a tool for either party.

  11. kevdei said

    Who Else ‘Worked With’ Bill Ayers?
    Huffington Post – 13 days ago
    “Behind in the polls and running out of time to change the subject from the sinking economy, the McCain/Palin campaign has gone hyper trying to morph Chicago Weatherman-turned-professor Bill Ayers into Barack Obama’s soul mate,” Greg Hinz writes in Crain’s Chicago Business.One of the most recent attempts is this 90-second attack ad:The non-partisan PolitiFact found the ad brimming with enough false statements that it earned a “Pants On Fire” ranking on the site’s Truth-O-Meter:In short, this was a mainstream foundation funded by a mainstream, Republican business leader and led by an overwhelmingly mainstream, civic-minded group of individuals. Ayers’ involvement in its inception and on an advisory committee do not make it radical – nor does the funding of programs involving the United Nations and African-American studies.This attack is false, but it’s more than that – it’s malicious. It unfairly tars not just Obama, but all the other prominent, well-respected Chicagoans who also volunteered their time to the foundation. They came from all walks of life and all political backgrounds, and there’s ample evidence their mission was nothing more than improving ailing public schools in Chicago. Obama, as Hinz writes, “apparently had a lot of company at work.” Among those who served on the boards of the two Chicago charities at the heart of the Ayers-Obama “connection” are the former president of Northwestern University, the head of the city’s most powerful business group, officials from petroleum giant BP Amoco and banking heavyweight UBS, and the ex-publisher of a noted liberal rag, the Chicago Tribune.Kinda gives it a different spin, no? The story of the Ayers affair isn’t that the radical Vietnam-era protester was embraced by Mr. Obama. The story is that a wide swath of Chicago’s establishment, rightly or wrongly, gave Mr. Ayers a second chance — and that Mr. Obama, not one to challenge Chicago’s power structure, raised no objections. The Obama campaign responded to McCain’s Ayers ad with the spot below:

  12. kevdei said

    Well Said..and I am A Christian who try to live by the whole word not taking scissiors out and using what i want to make my point..

    Kasha Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 6:28 pm
    I can understand and respect those who won’t vote for Obama because he is for keeping abortion safe and legal. The jump from there to accusing him of personally killing babies seems a bit unChristian to me, but whatever.

    What I don’t understand is how quickly these “Christian” folks, who like question the Christianity of anyone who disagrees with them, go from there to calling him and all of his supporters “scum balls”. Not much of a Christian witness. But that is what happens when Christians engage in partisan politics. THe guest stated he would not want to face Jesus if he had voted for a pro choice candidate. I do not want to face Jesus having behaved in an unChristian manner in order to elevate one party or the other.

  13. kevdei said

    I love WTRU But today was the last day i listen to Stu..as their wasn’t any edification in this program..we should be greater than this as our fight is not with this visible world it’s with the spiritual and Christ Jesus is already victorious

  14. Jared said

    Kevdei

    I think you better read again.

    “If he gets elected it will be because of the scum balls, and I mean all of us.” Us …. includes the Christians in the scum ball group.

    We are all extraordinary sinners, some seeing it as God has revealed it to us … others don’t. Normally I use the term turds. We are all turds in a cesspool. Some float higher some lower, but we all stink like you know what. And often times the self proclaimed Christians stink the most because they say they smell so sweet!

    Christians are scumball/turds relying upon a perfect, sweet, savior.

  15. Maz said

    Jared: The Bible tells me that I am a new creation, I am no longer the sinner needing a Savior, but I am a child of the living God, and so are you if you are saved by the blood of Jesus. We are in the household of God, whereas those who do not belong to God are still dead in their trespasses and sins. We are alive to God and we are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

  16. DA said

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  17. Maz said

    Jared: 2 Corinthians 5 v 21. ”For He has made Him (Jesus), who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.”

  18. Ed said

    Kevai said:

    “Also can someone show me in the bible were god says abortion is wrong”

    “Thou shall not murder.”

    Enuff said.

  19. Maz said

    Jared: Also, 2 Peter 1 v 3-4, ”According as his divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through knowledge of Him that has called us to glory and virtue; By which are given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”

  20. Ed said

    It appears that we have some plants trying to pass as Christians here.

  21. Stanley said

    Too bad Obama is going to win… in a landslide…

  22. Ed said

    kevdei Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 6:46 pm
    I love WTRU But today was the last day i listen to Stu..as their wasn’t any edification in this program..we should be greater than this as our fight is not with this visible world it’s with the spiritual and Christ Jesus is already victorious

    **********************************************************************************************

    I bet that if I had 5 minutes to discuss Biblical theology with you I could easily expose you as a deceiver and Obama plant who is clueless about Biblical Truth.

  23. Maz said

    Ed: Maybe it’s the tares among the wheat?

  24. Ed said

    Stanley Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 7:07 pm
    Too bad Obama is going to win… in a landslide…
    **************************************************************************************

    How did you arrive at that conclusion?

  25. Ed said

    kevdei Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 6:39 pm
    Well Said..and I am A Christian who try to live by the whole word not taking scissiors out and using what i want to make my point..

    ***************************************************************************************

    If that is true, then why did you take the scissors to the part of the Bible that says:

    “Thou shall not murder.”

  26. Stanley said

    Oh, I dunno, every poll ever.

  27. Ed said

    DA Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 6:35 pm
    And so why has George Bush not stopped abortion? He hasn’t, and John McCain won’t either. Oh, I know you’ll make all sorts of excuses, like he doesn’t have the power, etc.. Please… that didn’t stop him from going to war.
    ***********************************************************************************************

    Well, you are right that McCain does not have the power, nor does any President have the power to overturn Roe v. Wade.

    But the President DOES have the power to appoint judges to the Supreme Court who DO have the power to overturn Roe v. Wade.

    Also, to clarify your comment about Bush going to war.

    It would help if you actually understood the powers that the Constitution invest in office of the Presidency.

    The President does not have the authority to go to war on his own. That authority has to be granted by Congress.

    Congress did just that, and gave Bush the authority under the War Powers Act, to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Without that congressional authorization Bush could not have unilaterally gone to way.

    I thought you should know the real facts.

  28. Ed said

    stanly,

    You actually believe those polls? Which ones? Conducted by whom? What kind of sampling was made in the polls you rely on?

    Polls are usually designed to produce an effect.

    Guess what?

    Last election the polls had John Kerry winning in a “landslide” too.

    In 1980, the polls had Jimmy Carter winning in a landslide. The opposite happened, Reagan demolished Carter in the greatest landslide in the history of the USA.

    Those polls you say have Obama winning by a landslide are designed to show that, and to discourage Republicans and independents who would vote for McCain to stay home instead of casting a useless vote.

    If Obama was as far ahead as those polls show, he would not be spending $150 Million on ads in the battleground states like Ohio, NC, Virginia, Florida, Kansas or would he be working so hard in those states.

  29. Ed said

    kasha the Obama plant, says:

    “What I don’t understand is how quickly these “Christian” folks, who like question the Christianity of anyone who disagrees with them”
    ***********************************************************************************************

    Well kasha the plant, we “Christian folk” do not question the “Christianity of anyone who disagrees with them”.

    No, we question Obama’s claim of being “Christian” because his beliefs do NOT agree with God.

  30. Kasha said

    “Thou shalt not murder”

    What about Iraq? The death penalty? Obviously many of you think there are siutations that murder is allowed. People for abortion choice draw the line in a different place than you. Why does that make them unBiblical but you Biblical?

    No one is consistently pro Life but Jesus. Quit demonizing people who have different opinions of which life questions are the ones that can be addressed through politics. Some Christians think the Iraq war is a life issue and that they can only stop that by voting for Obama. THey are also opposed to abortions, and will try to limit those in other ways that might be a lot more effective than hoping for overturing Roe v Wade.
    1 – Adopt a high risk baby
    2 – Don’t have one yourself (most women who get abortions self identify as Christian, you know)
    3 – Do everything in your power to keep your sons and daughters from becoming sexually active outside of marriage. Talk to them about it, set CURFEWS, don’t let them be alone with members of the opposite gender unsuperivsed.
    4 – Preach abstinence, but teach them about birth control just in case
    5 – If you are a man, you better not be having sex outside of marriage if you are against abortion. DOn’t forget every abortion is at least half a man’s fault.
    6 – Volunteer at your church, or at the local school or boys and girls club where you will have an opportunity to mentor kids to be able to affect their behavior.
    7 – Volunteer or give money to your local crisis pregnancy center.
    8 – Pray
    9 – Support the programs that give women the financial resources to not make the decision to terminate a pregnancy.

    There are a lot of other things Christians could be doing to decrease in concrete ways the number of abortions that are performed in this country without splitting the country apart, criminalizing doctors, etc. Walk the walk, don’t just talk the talk. In fact, I’d like to hear other Christian’s suggestions for ways to reach out to women at risk of getting an “unwanted” pregnancy or women considering an abortion.

  31. Kasha said

    Just to clarify, in point number 2 I meant don’t have an “abortion”, not don’t have a “baby”, when I said don’t have “one.”

    Ed – yes, I am an Obama supporter, and I have blogged on this site for several months. I am a Bible believing, baptized, sanctified follower of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, the only way to salvation. I place my faith in no man or woman but God. I am, however, voting for Obama after careful consideration of MANY life issues.

    I am not sure what you mean by “Obama plant”, other than it does not seem like a very Christian attitude to automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with you POLITICALLY must be a fake believer. That is the sort of attitude that leads to theocracies such as the Taliban (who are against abortion, by the way. Does that make them Christian? I think not.)

  32. Ed said

    Kasha Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 7:28 pm
    “Thou shalt not murder”

    What about Iraq? The death penalty?

    ********************************************************************************************

    What about them?

    Apparently you do not understand the diffence between justifiable taking of life, which is granted by God and the premeditated act of murder, which is exactly what abortion is.

    kasha the plant said:
    Obviously many of you think there are siutations that murder is allowed.
    *******************************************************************************************

    No, there is no situation where murder is allowed.

    There is a clear distinction between murder and justifiable homicide.

    And those distinctions are made in the Scriptures, that are the Inspired Word of God.

    kasha the plant said:
    People for abortion choice draw the line in a different place than you.
    *******************************************************************************************

    The difference is the abortionists do not think abortion is murder at all. They do not consider those babies to be humans.

    No, they justify the heinous murder of unborn children by calling them “gobs of goo”.

    Now, you tell me, what is the difference between a nearly full term baby that is visciously killed by partial birth abortion and a fully delivered baby.

    kasha the plant said:
    Why does that make them unBiblical but you Biblical?
    *********************************************************************************************

    Because they do not follow the Bible at all.

    No, they follow their own law and make up their own law for themselves.

    The Bible is explicit and unambiguous in prohibitting murder.

    The Bible is also explicit and unambiguous in granting justifiable homicide.

    That is why.

  33. Bookert said

    Best line of the day was by the African-American woman who responded to Stu’s “hurry up, time is short” interruption with, “Time is always short when someone else is making a point.” Yes ma’am, I’ve noticed that, too. It would be nice now and then to hear a caller actually finish a point.

    Response to the very first point by Jim. I wonder how many babies we killed in Iraq, Jim. Or do they not count?

  34. Wang Fu said

    Let’s all agree that if we are truly Bible believing Christians, then we have to let God’s Word be the final arbiter, not feelings and emotions:

    If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech…I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him… (Leviticus 20:1-5)

    Do this so that innocent blood will not be shed in your land, which the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance, and so that you will not be guilty of bloodshed. (Deuteronomy 19:10)

    He sent them to destroy Judah…Surely these things happened to Judah according to the Lord’s command, in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done, including the shedding of innocent blood. For he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to forgive. (2 Kings 24:2-4)

    There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood… (Proverbs 6:16-19)

    Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I will give you over to bloodshed and it will pursue you. Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you. (Ezekiel 35:6)

    One of the greatest abominations that has caused God to wipe out entire nations is the murder of innocent children (giving them over to the fire). Let’s be honest. How many of us truly believe that God will bless a nation that kills 3000-5000 black, white, yellow, brown and red babies per day.

  35. Wang Fu said

    Brothers and Sisters. Please check out some great blogs by Randy Alcorn at http://www.randyalcorn.blogspot.com/.

  36. Kasha said

    To reply to Dr. Dobson’s claims about Obama, this is from factcheck.org, a non partisan site that favors neither candidate. Read their entire analysis of Obama’s actions in the Illinois state legislature. It neither exonerates nor excoriates him, but gives the facts.

    A sampling:
    Whether opposing “born alive” legislation is the same as supporting “infanticide,” however, is entirely a matter of interpretation. That could be true only for those, such as Obama’s 2004 Republican opponent, Alan Keyes, who believe a fetus that doctors give no chance of surviving is an “infant.” It is worth noting that Illinois law already provided that physicians must protect the life of a fetus when there is “a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support.”

    Again, if you are voting only on the abortion issue, that is your right. You must vote as you feel led as a Christian. But all Christians are only required to agree on one issue: that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior and the only path to salvation.

    Do not make the abortion issue an idol.

  37. Ed said

    Kasha Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 7:35 pm

    Ed – yes, I am an Obama supporter, and I have blogged on this site for several months. I am a Bible believing, baptized, sanctified follower of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, the only way to salvation. I place my faith in no man or woman but God. I am, however, voting for Obama after careful consideration of MANY life issues.
    *******************************************************************************************

    I find your claims to ring hollow.

    You claim to be Christian, but easily support the policy of systematic infanticide.

    Just because you claim to be Christian does not mean you are.

    Jesus said there would be false professors, what He called, “tares” among true believers called “wheat”.

    Jesus also said Christians would know them not by what they say, but by what they do.

    Anyone who supports systematic infanticide is living in abject rebellion against God and His Law.

    Saying a few words like your profession above does not give you license to make up your own laws to live by and to support systematic infanticide.

    Actually, your actions betray your words.

    I would suggest that you follow Paul’s admonition and walk circumspectly around your life and see if your actions justify your profession.

    kasha said:
    I am not sure what you mean by “Obama plant”, other than it does not seem like a very Christian attitude to automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with you POLITICALLY must be a fake believer.
    ******************************************************************************************

    Well kasha, I do question you because I disagree with you “POLITICALLY”, but because YOU DISAGREE WITH GOD and support the systematic MURDER of unborn babies.

    That dear child is NOT a POLITICAL issue, it is a MORAL ISSUE, and one that is in utter rebellion against God.

    You see, Jesus was very clear, you cannot serve two masters. You cannot serve the world and Jesus too.

    And you know what, IT IS CHRISTIAN to do so.

    kasha said:
    That is the sort of attitude that leads to theocracies such as the Taliban (who are against abortion, by the way. Does that make them Christian? I think not.)
    ********************************************************************************************

    Ut oh, there you go playing the “Taliban” card.

    Yep, you are a leftist plant alright.

    Yep, since you cannot make a viable argument that is in agreement with God, you resort to the leftist tactic of trying to demonize your opponent.

    Guess what kasha, you are a fraud.

  38. F. L. A. said

    Greetings Ed!

    Would you please carefully explain to those of us who are not Christian what the difference is between what you call justifiable homicide and murder?
    Seems to be rather one in the same to me.
    And I think you are being too judgmental in regards to the way that you are treating Kasha.
    Christians who needle other Christians appear to cheapen the faith.

  39. Kasha said

    Ed says,
    “The Bible is also explicit and unambiguous in granting justifiable homicide.”

    Ed, please cite the unambiguous explicit verses dealing with justifiable homicide.

    As asked before, the babies and pregnant women killed in Iraq: are those justifiable? A pregnant woman killed by a bomb is technically an abortion.

  40. Ed said

    kasha said:
    Again, if you are voting only on the abortion issue, that is your right. You must vote as you feel led as a Christian. But all Christians are only required to agree on one issue: that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior and the only path to salvation.
    *********************************************************************************************

    Where did you get that foolish notion?

  41. Kasha said

    Ed,

    It would bother me that you called me a fraud except for the part that I am only worried about what Jesus calls me: His child.

    Moderator, you did throw someone off the website for calling Stu a “hack”. Please do not throw Ed off, but do let him know about our rules of civil engagement here.

  42. Kasha said

    Ed says
    “Where did you get that foolish notion?”

    Uh…the Bible. John 3:16, for example, to name only the most well known verse.

  43. Kasha said

    Ed,
    Also, you are ignoring the fact that I am, personally, against abortion, in addition to being against the war in Iraq and against the death penalty.

    May I just point out that any man out there who has ever had unprotected sex with a woman may have contributed to an abortion. So if we made it illegal to have unprotected sex outside of marriage, maybe that would be a better way to stop abortions? But I doubt you Republicans would want the government in their bedrooms (or wherever unprotected fornication might take place!) It is easy to feel morally superior when it doesn’t affect your own choices or your pocketbook. But as Christians, we need to WALK THE WALK.

  44. John said

    Treat the words as water of a ducks back Kasha.
    Sounds as if you have things in the right perspective after reading your first sentence within post41.
    Of course gaining support from heretics like me and Ferox may not help your position very much on a site such as this, but then, so what?[smile]
    I want to know why Ed disagreed with you in post 40. As a non-Christian I realize that my judgment on these matters may be severely flawed, but what you said sounded like the main “meat and potatoes” of good Christian theology to me.

  45. Ed said

    F. L. A. Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 8:01 pm
    Greetings Ed!

    Would you please carefully explain to those of us who are not Christian what the difference is between what you call justifiable homicide and murder?
    ********************************************************************************************

    Gladly.

    Murder is the malicious, conscious, premeditated, unjustified killing of another human being.

    Abortion is as good example as it gets of murder.

    The Bible, gives very clear permission, as the carrying out of God’s Justice of times when the taking of of another human’s life is justified.

    For example.

    Lets say you are a married man, with a lovely wife and three daughters, ages 6, 8 and 10.

    You come home one evening to find two armed men in your house, with your daughters tied up, having their clothes removed and your unclothed wife laying on the coffee table in your living room, daughters tied next to her, with one of the men having his pants down around his ankles and moving toward your wife.

    The other man is watching, with a pistol in his hand.

    They do not know you have arrived, and you sneak in, armed with your own pistol.

    Then, you enter the room quickly, yelling for the man to put his pistol down and for them to back off.

    But the man starts to raise his pistol against you.

    You would be justified to put a bullet between his eyes to defend yourself and your family.

    F. L. A. Says:
    Seems to be rather one in the same to me.
    ********************************************************************************************

    Of course it does, you do not subscribe to God’s Laws. You subscribe to your own.

    F. L. A. Says:
    And I think you are being too judgmental in regards to the way that you are treating Kasha.
    Christians who needle other Christians appear to cheapen the faith.
    ******************************************************************************************

    No, I am not being “too judgmental” at all. I am using righteous judgment.

    And, I am not “needling” kasha, I am challenging his assertions.

  46. Kasha said

    Ed says
    “Yep, you are a leftist plant alright.”

    That’s ok. I’m pretty sure that’s what the pharisees thought about Jesus.

  47. Ed said

    Kasha Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 8:08 pm
    Ed says
    “Where did you get that foolish notion?”

    Uh…the Bible. John 3:16, for example, to name only the most well known verse.
    ********************************************************************************************

    kasha, John 3:16 does not say:

    “But all Christians are only required to agree on one issue: that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior and the only path to salvation.”

    You are reading what you want to read into that passage. John 3:16 does not remotely say that the only thing Christians are to agree on is “that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior and the only path to salvation.”

    On the contrary, John 3:16 says that those who DO believe in Christ, and not those who SAY they do, have eternal life.

    But, I’m willing to let you explain exactly HOW John 3:16 says that the only issue Christians are to agree on is, “that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior and the only path to salvation.”

    Have at it.

  48. Kasha said

    Ed says:
    “You would be justified to put a bullet between his eyes to defend yourself and your family.”

    According the US law, yes. According to Jesus, only because of His saving grace would you be forgiven, just the same as a convicted murderer who had found salvation in the Lord.
    “You have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. ” Matt 5:38-39

  49. Kasha said

    Ed,
    Christians beleive in salvation through faith, not through works. Voting is a work, is it not? Faith is the key.

    “For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.” Eph 2:8-9

  50. Jared said

    Maz

    Yes, we are a new creation (we are not blind any longer), and yes we are justified by the righteousness of Christ, but that doesn’t mean we are completely sanctified. We have a war raging inside of us. First off lets look at Paul.

    Speaking to the Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome he says in 6:20-23, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to *sanctification* and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    He says of himself in Romans 7:18-25 “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” Paul also says ”

    Isaiah says of himself that his best works are like filthy (menstruated rags) and this when God considers Isaiah righteous, but not because of Isaiah, but rather because of Christ. Peter, being an Apostle and called by Christ his among his flock of sheep denied Christ right after he had said he would not. David committed adultery, had a man killed, and then lied about it, yet he was considered a man after God’s own heart.

    We are Justified now, Sanctification is occurring daily, and we look forward to Glorification. So I can say with Isaiah and other men of the faith, that I am a wretched man (a turd failing daily though I now know sin and it shames me and I make progress by the work of the Holy Spirit)in and of myself, and yet because of the Lord Jesus Christ I am justified and have had my great sin debt paid in full (even those sins I haven’t committed yet). He has removed the heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh, but as with all saints the world, flesh, and the devil prevail against my knowledge often and I say this with shame, because I love my Lord and hate to spurn Him. What a Savior that he paid my sin debt in full. What a Father that he is merciful to me even as I continue to sin now.

    So that is what I mean by Turds. We Christian’s know the right thing to do and yet we often fail. It isn’t our righteousness. It is Christ’s. We may no longer be enemies, but we are still sinners and the effects of sin are still evident within us. Our bodies are still dying.

    Thanks for the question. Hope I gave you a sufficient answer. As you can see from the above postings and all the others we have been on together, and you far more than I, the non Christians have no clue about true Christianity, they think it is just a bunch of rules and regs and people saving themselves. It is really two different hearts!

  51. Ed said

    Kasha Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 8:06 pm
    Ed,

    It would bother me that you called me a fraud except for the part that I am only worried about what Jesus calls me: His child.
    ************************************************************************************************

    How can you be His child and support the systematic murder of unborn babies?

    Explain that.

    Especially in light of this:

    1 John 1:6-8

    6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

    Supporting systematic murder of unborn babies is walking in darkness.

    kasha says
    Moderator, you did throw someone off the website for calling Stu a “hack”. Please do not throw Ed off, but do let him know about our rules of civil engagement here.
    **********************************************************************************************

    If you think some “rule” has been broken, then point it out and explain exactly how.

  52. Ed said

    John Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 8:17 pm
    Treat the words as water of a ducks back Kasha.
    *********************************************************************************************

    That’s right kasha, keep living by your own dictates.

    John Says:
    Sounds as if you have things in the right perspective after reading your first sentence within post41.
    ********************************************************************************************

    Of course you would say that. You are not on the side of truth.

    John Says:
    I want to know why Ed disagreed with you in post 40.
    ********************************************************************************************

    Well John, because his comment is categorically false, as I have explained.

    John Says:
    As a non-Christian I realize that my judgment on these matters may be severely flawed, but what you said sounded like the main “meat and potatoes” of good Christian theology to me.
    *********************************************************************************************

    Well John, since by your own admission you are not Christian, then you are in no position to judge what is and what is not “good Christian theology”.

  53. Wang Fu said

    Time Out!!

    Way too many emotions driving this debate as opposed to God’s Word. Again, let’s look at God’s Word and make our decisions. Please respond to God’s Words. Not mine nor Ed’s nor Kasha’s………

    If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech…I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him… (Leviticus 20:1-5)

    Do this so that innocent blood will not be shed in your land, which the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance, and so that you will not be guilty of bloodshed. (Deuteronomy 19:10)

    He sent them to destroy Judah…Surely these things happened to Judah according to the Lord’s command, in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done, including the shedding of innocent blood. For he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to forgive. (2 Kings 24:2-4)

    There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood… (Proverbs 6:16-19)

    Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I will give you over to bloodshed and it will pursue you. Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you. (Ezekiel 35:6)

    One of the greatest abominations that has caused God to wipe out entire nations is the murder of innocent children (giving them over to the fire). Let’s be honest. How many of us truly believe that God will bless a nation that kills 3000-5000 black, white, yellow, brown and red babies per day.

    The VERY important word that God gives above is “Innocent”. This is the delimiter from other forms of killing (police officer killing bank robber, WW2 soldier killing Nazi, God killing Sodomites, etc.). It is clear from God’s word that babies are “innocent life”. Let’s not debate the issue with justified war which is a different debate that God addresses in scripture as well.

  54. Ed said

    Kasha Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 8:14 pm
    Ed,
    Also, you are ignoring the fact that I am, personally, against abortion, in addition to being against the war in Iraq and against the death penalty.
    **********************************************************************************************

    No, I am not “ignoring” that you say you are personally against abortion at all.

    What I AM doing is pointing out that being “personally against abortion” and supporting the systematic murder of unborn babies are mutually exclusive, and that all you are doing is regurgitating the liberal religionist cliched talking point about being “personally against abortion”, while trying to have it both ways.

    You see, as Jesus said, you cannot serve two masters.

    If you are truly against abortion, then you cannot support the systematic murder of unborn babies by government. The two are mutually exclusive.

    That would be like a German in WWII saying, “I am personally against the systematic murder of the Jews” but then assenting to the government doing it.

    I am afraid you are more in tune with this world than with Christ,

  55. F. L. A. said

    Me again.
    Thank you for your prompt response, Ed.
    Question: How does the murder,eh, justifiable killing of the bad men within your little hypothetical scenario qualify as being a good example of homicide sanctioned by your God?
    Perhaps I have murdered many men and felt that my actions were justifiable, and they would be, following you example.
    Although I am not a Christian, this does not mean that the only laws I subscribe to are my own, and I am not speaking of the laws of society.
    Remember the bible story of the man who God helped to summon two she bears to kill a whole bunch of little children because they dared to make fun of his bald head? That does not seem very justifiable of a reason to me, yet God helped him do it.
    One must be careful how one uses their “righteous judgment” to critique fellow Christians[or anyone else for that matter].
    Because there is always the possibility that your just full of yourself and full of it.

  56. Wang Fu said

    Okay. I’ll just keep posting this same comment until someone responds instead of continuing the attack on each other. Time Out!!

    Way too many emotions driving this debate as opposed to God’s Word. Again, let’s look at God’s Word and make our decisions. Please respond to God’s Words. Not mine nor Ed’s nor Kasha’s………

    If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech…I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him… (Leviticus 20:1-5)

    Do this so that innocent blood will not be shed in your land, which the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance, and so that you will not be guilty of bloodshed. (Deuteronomy 19:10)

    He sent them to destroy Judah…Surely these things happened to Judah according to the Lord’s command, in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done, including the shedding of innocent blood. For he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to forgive. (2 Kings 24:2-4)

    There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood… (Proverbs 6:16-19)

    Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I will give you over to bloodshed and it will pursue you. Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you. (Ezekiel 35:6)

    One of the greatest abominations that has caused God to wipe out entire nations is the murder of innocent children (giving them over to the fire). Let’s be honest. How many of us truly believe that God will bless a nation that kills 3000-5000 black, white, yellow, brown and red babies per day.

    The VERY important word that God gives above is “Innocent”. This is the delimiter from other forms of killing (police officer killing bank robber, WW2 soldier killing Nazi, God killing Sodomites, etc.). It is clear from God’s word that babies are “innocent life”. Let’s not debate the issue with justified war which is a different debate that God addresses in scripture as well.

  57. Jared said

    Wang Fu … Great post, but remember only the true Christian will presuppose the infallibility of God’s word, as you have, and approach it with humility. His enemies will deny, reject, and twist it to their own self serving. That will come shortly back at you!

  58. Ed said

    Kasha Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 8:23 pm
    Ed says:
    “You would be justified to put a bullet between his eyes to defend yourself and your family.”

    According the US law, yes.

    ******************************************************************************************

    No, according to God’s Law.

    kasha says:
    “You have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. ” Matt 5:38-39
    **********************************************************************************************

    There we go with one of the most misapplied passages by liberal postmodernist religionists in all of Scripture, besides Matthew 7:1.

    In context, if you notice, Jesus said, “You have heard it SAID”, not what is written. And in context, Jesus was referring to what the Phariess said, or taught, not what is written in the Scriptures.

    By the way, “turning the other cheek” is not negating self defense or the defense of others using force.

    No, it was a Jewish idiom which referring to personal insults, not actual physical assaults.

    Scripture throughout gives every human the right to self defense and defense of others.

  59. Ed said

    Kasha Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 8:27 pm
    Ed,
    Christians beleive in salvation through faith, not through works. Voting is a work, is it not?
    ******************************************************************************************

    LOL, how in the world did you come to that mixed up notion?

    Do you understand anything at all about what CONTEXT means?

    The “works” spoken of by Paul is the passage you cited are works of the law, that one things will make them righteous in the eyes of God.

    So, no, “voting” is not a “work”.

    Kasha Says:
    Faith is the key.

    “For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.” Eph 2:8-9
    ********************************************************************************************

    Now, explain what Ephesians 2:8-9 has to do with voting.

    Be specific please.

  60. VB said

    The answer to the question is ‘No.’

    We as Christians need to pray for the leaders. Sen. Obama’s views (and others) on abortion are totally antithetical. To vote for any pro-death supporter would be in total denial of the Gospel. It is alost as if we’re in the ‘twilight zone’ or a skit from ‘MAD’ magazine to think that a child of God would even consider to vote for any candidate in favor of abortion.

  61. VB said

    Oops,

    I mean’t ‘almost’.

  62. Lauren said

    Don’t worry Kasha, they don’t throw off (eat) their own kind. Just like on the radio show, they readily allow badgering of those with conflicting views of the host, so that’s nothing new. Maybe if he calls YOU a “hack” he’ll at least get a token warning.

    Some Christians will vote based on injustice (to themselves and/or to others), while others will vote because they believe they’re on the side of Righteousness (save the unborn, anti-gay rights, etc.);I believe that Jesus called us to be both “Just” and “Righteous”. Make your decision based on the good character of the person, because as much as you’d like to believe it, one person isn’t going to save the world either way. Only Jesus Christ can do that.

  63. F. L. A. said

    Poor Jared might be rather disappointed if none of “his enemies” criticize Mr.Fu.

  64. Ed said

    F. L. A. Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 8:43 pm
    Me again.
    Thank you for your prompt response, Ed.
    Question: How does the murder,eh, justifiable killing of the bad men within your little hypothetical scenario qualify as being a good example of homicide sanctioned by your God?
    *********************************************************************************************

    Because as I have explained, it is coming to the defense of oneself and others from maliscious intent and violence perpetrated with evil intent.

    F. L. A. Says:

    Perhaps I have murdered many men and felt that my actions were justifiable, and they would be, following you example.
    *********************************************************************************************

    Yes, they would be justified and not murder.

    F. L. A. Says:
    Although I am not a Christian, this does not mean that the only laws I subscribe to are my own, and I am not speaking of the laws of society.
    **********************************************************************************************

    If they are not God’s Laws, then they are yours.

    F. L. A. Says:
    Remember the bible story of the man who God helped to summon two she bears to kill a whole bunch of little children because they dared to make fun of his bald head? That does not seem very justifiable of a reason to me, yet God helped him do it.
    **********************************************************************************************

    They were not killed by the bears for mocking the prophet.

    They were judged by God for mocking God.

    Big difference.

    F. L. A. Says:
    One must be careful how one uses their “righteous judgment” to critique fellow Christians[or anyone else for that matter].
    Because there is always the possibility that your just full of yourself and full of it.
    ************************************************************************************************

    Well my friend, you can rest assured that I am very careful in my “critiques” and “righteous judgment”.

    Christians are commanded by God to use righteous judgment and to test what someone who claims to be “Christian” by the objective Word of God, and not just a subjective “feeling”.

  65. Kasha said

    Ed says:

    “How can you be His child and support the systematic murder of unborn babies?”

    You continue to ignore the fact that I am pro-life. I am against the killing of unborn babies, born babies, Americans, Iraquis, starving African children, etc.

    I am not trying to convince you to vote for Obama, I am simply defending the premise that just because one is voting for Obama doesn’t mean they are not a Christian. It doesn’t even mean that they are pro-abortion. For you, abortion is the only issue that Christians should be concerned about. There are MANY other life issues in this election that are important to me, and MANY ways to work to reduce abortions besides hoping for an overturn of Roe v Wade, several of which I am actively engaged in through my church.

    I have to put my children to sleep now, so I am signing off. You may continue to cast aspersions on my character and faith to your heart’s content. Regardless of who wins, I hope we can as Christians follow the words of Titus 3. Some highlights: “Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men…avoid all foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because they are unprofitable and useless.”

    Again, I would like to put out a request to all Christians to come together and figure out ways to end abortion through changing hearts and minds. The law will follow.

  66. Ed said

    Wang Fu Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 8:43 pm
    Okay. I’ll just keep posting this same comment until someone responds instead of continuing the attack on each other. Time Out!!
    ***********************************************************************************************

    WF, with all due respect, no one is “attacking”.

    If Christians hold that matters of truth cannot be upheld and that things promoted by liberal postmondernist religionists that are contrary to God’s Word cannot be challenged and openly confronted and rebuked, then Christians have lost their bearings and lost their backbone.

    I am not going to be politically correct because it pleases some men.

    Wang Fu Says:
    Way too many emotions driving this debate as opposed to God’s Word. Again, let’s look at God’s Word and make our decisions. Please respond to God’s Words. Not mine nor Ed’s nor Kasha’s………
    ***********************************************************************************************

    I can assure you that I ma not “emotional” in this circumstance at all, but am calm, cool and collected, and standing for God’s Truth without equivocation.

  67. Kasha said

    Ed says:
    “The “works” spoken of by Paul is the passage you cited are works of the law, that one things will make them righteous in the eyes of God.”
    Aren’t you saying that only voting for McCain will make me righteous in the eyes of God?

    Ed says,
    “Now, explain what Ephesians 2:8-9 has to do with voting.”

    Nothing whatsoever, as nothing in the Bible has anything to do with voting. Which is why I am still a Christian regardless of how I vote. God knows my heart, and knows why I am voting for OBama, and I think that is what is important. God knows your heart, and know why you are voting for McCain. And God loves both of us.

  68. F. L. A. said

    I am not your friend, Ed.
    However I am amused at your use of what you deem righteous judgment, and look forward to reading more of your posts in the future[Huge sharp-toothed grin].
    Reading your posts have made me rather hungry, and thus I shall now take my leave for this night.
    Good Evening.

  69. Wang Fu said

    (heavy sigh) I really would like someone to respond to God’s Word below with gentleness and respect. I really would love for Kasha or someone else to respond, other than Ed. No offense F.L.A buddy, but the context of this discussion is for those who confess to be “Bible-Believing” Believers in Jesus Christ. Thanks for keeping up with the debate though.

    Wang Fu Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 8:37 pm
    Time Out!!

    If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech…I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him… (Leviticus 20:1-5)

    Do this so that innocent blood will not be shed in your land, which the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance, and so that you will not be guilty of bloodshed. (Deuteronomy 19:10)

    He sent them to destroy Judah…Surely these things happened to Judah according to the Lord’s command, in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done, including the shedding of innocent blood. For he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to forgive. (2 Kings 24:2-4)

    There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood… (Proverbs 6:16-19)

    Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I will give you over to bloodshed and it will pursue you. Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you. (Ezekiel 35:6)

    One of the greatest abominations that has caused God to wipe out entire nations is the murder of innocent children (giving them over to the fire). Let’s be honest. How many of us truly believe that God will bless a nation that kills 3000-5000 black, white, yellow, brown and red babies per day.

    The VERY important word that God gives above is “Innocent”. This is the delimiter from other forms of killing (police officer killing bank robber, WW2 soldier killing Nazi, God killing Sodomites, etc.). It is clear from God’s word that babies are “innocent life”. Let’s not debate the issue with justified war which is a different debate that God addresses in scripture as well.

  70. Ed said

    Kasha Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 9:02 pm
    Ed says:

    “How can you be His child and support the systematic murder of unborn babies?”

    You continue to ignore the fact that I am pro-life. I am against the killing of unborn babies
    ***********************************************************************************************

    You say you are, which is nothing more than one of the cliched talking points of liberal postmodernist religionists.

    But then YOU SUPPORT the government murder of unborn babies.

    And please do not tell us you do not because you DO.

    And you are willing to vote for someone who is on the record in support of abortion of all kinds.

    What is clear is that you love your “economics” more than God’s Truth, and you prove it with whom you support.

    kasha says:
    I am not trying to convince you to vote for Obama, I am simply defending the premise that just because one is voting for Obama doesn’t mean they are not a Christian. It doesn’t even mean that they are pro-abortion. For you, abortion is the only issue that Christians should be concerned about. There are MANY other life issues in this election that are important to me, and MANY ways to work to reduce abortions besides hoping for an overturn of Roe v Wade, several of which I am actively engaged in through my church.

    ***********************************************************************************************

    And I am opposed to your false assertions.

    kasha says:
    I have to put my children to sleep now, so I am signing off. You may continue to cast aspersions on my character and faith to your heart’s content.
    *********************************************************************************************

    Nice playing of the victim card kasha. Very nice.

    Your false assertions and beliefs are challenged because they are in contradiction to God’s Truth, and your walk betrays your talk.

    kasha says:
    Regardless of who wins, I hope we can as Christians follow the words of Titus 3. Some highlights: “Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men…avoid all foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because they are unprofitable and useless.”
    **********************************************************************************************

    kasha, Titus 3 is not unconditional. I guess you are not aware of that are you?

    There is a precedence:

    Acts 5:29
    But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.

    1 John 4
    1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    Matthew 7
    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

    Proverbs 13:1
    A wise son heeds his father’s instruction,But a scoffer does not listen to rebuke.

    Proverbs 27:5
    Open rebuke is better Than love carefully concealed.

    2 Timothy 4

    1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at[a] His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! <b}Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

    You see kasha, you have taken snippets and read your own preconceived notions into them to try to make your own laws and morals justified, just as Paul said would happen above.

    kasha says:
    Again, I would like to put out a request to all Christians to come together and figure out ways to end abortion through changing hearts and minds. The law will follow.
    ***********************************************************************************************

    kasha says that while supporting a government and candidates that agree with the systematic murder of babies.

    kasha, you are using doublespeak.

    Some may be fooled by it, especially the ungodly who support the murder of unborn babies, but I am not, because I know the Truth of God’s Word and not the twisting of it as you do.

  71. Ed said

    F. L. A. Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 9:10 pm
    I am not your friend, Ed.
    ****************************************************************************************

    I was using the term very loosely.

    F. L. A. Says:
    However I am amused at your use of what you deem righteous judgment
    ***************************************************************************************

    Of course, the things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing.

    F. L. A. Says:
    and look forward to reading more of your posts in the future[Huge sharp-toothed grin].
    ******************************************************************************************

    Rest assured that I will not give you any watered down, sugarcoated false gospel message.

    I will confront you with your sin and godless life.

  72. Ed said

    Kasha Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 9:09 pm
    Ed says:
    “The “works” spoken of by Paul is the passage you cited are works of the law, that one things will make them righteous in the eyes of God.”
    Aren’t you saying that only voting for McCain will make me righteous in the eyes of God?
    *********************************************************************************************

    Not in a salvific sense kasha.

    Please learn how to read Scripture in context.

    Whether you vote for Obama or McCain will not save you or not.

    But voting for Obama is to deny the Law of God and to support the systematic murder of helpless unborn babies and is being in open rebellion against God, and is an indicator that your profession of faith is just that, words, which carry NOT the force of godly conviction and righteousness.

  73. Stanley said

    Lol, righteous judgment. Sounds like something a crusader would say.

  74. Ed said

    Maz Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 7:07 pm
    Ed: Maybe it’s the tares among the wheat?
    *******************************************************************************************

    BINGO!

    Don Pardo, give that Christian the grand prize of the day, the “New Geneva Study Bible” and an all expense paid trip to the upcoming seminar on “Defending the Truth” at Ligonier Ministries in St. Pete, FLA.

  75. Ed said

    Stanley Says:
    October 27, 2008 at 9:37 pm
    Lol, righteous judgment. Sounds like something a crusader would say.
    ********************************************************************************************

    John 7:24
    Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

    Pay particular attention to this next one:

    Romans 2:4-6

    4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”

  76. Stanley said

    So he wants is for me to unconvert you.

  77. Lauren said

    My goodness Ed… If Obama wins this election a week from tomorrow, I’m afraid your head might explode. Don’t get too worked up dude or you might be forced to fall on your own dagger, or at the very least seek some serious therapy.

    F.L.A., don’t pay any attention to Ed’s “friend” statement; McCain says “friend” all the time, so it’s probably starting to rub off on the GOP faithful’s subconscious.

    Ed, you do a really good job quoting scripture to serve your own purpose of demonizing fellow Christians; I wonder if you’re as critical of yourself as you are of others. Don’t pretend to be God, because you’re not; judging other’s sincerity is His job, not yours.

    Should a Bible believing Christian vote for Obama? If they believe he’s the right person for the job, you bet-cha. I already did, but then, we all know what “Mr. Ed” will say about that. Good night!

  78. Stanley said

    Did you know in 1 Corinthians 50: 21 the bible explicitly says “You must not vote for a black muslim socialist.”

  79. Maz said

    Wangfu: Great post #34. Christians should always…..ALWAYS look at what the Word of God says in everything they do. It’s good to see the scriptures, considering that we are supposedly looking at all these issues ‘from a Biblical perspective’.

  80. Maz said

    Kasha # 36: ”Do not make the abortion issue an idol”.

    How does one make, caring about the millions of unborn that are killed in the womb every single year, an idol?

  81. Maz said

    Jared #50: Yes, thanks for that. But I do think that we need to be a little wiser in the choice of words we use on here, especially if we are speaking of others aswell. I don’t like the words you used (not that I was offended personally) but as I’v read a lot of posts on here between CHRISTIANS I can see a very unchristian flavour being mixed in. I try not to get into that, and I know it’s hard sometimes not to get sucked into that kind of rhetoric but we need to give a good witness to the world…..that we are different. We are not of this world, neither is our kingdom of this world, but of Christ.
    ————————————

    I disagree with some of what Kasha has said and at times she does seem to support the wrong side rather than let her Christian heart show.
    And even if (and I can’t remember who said it) she was ‘a plant’ we should still show love and patience and not an abrasive spirit towards her and other Christians we may disagree with.

  82. Maz said

    Ed: I do agree with a lot you have said, and I found where you called her a plant, whether this is true or not, we need to be careful not to be too harsh. Yes, we need to judge righteously and I have had to defend the faith and quote the Word of God many times, but we have to be careful at all times to remain in a wise and harmless attitude……as doves.

    John (#44): If we feel the need to correct anyone with what the Word says then we should, the Word is for instruction in righteousness, and for correction and reproof also. If we (Christians) stand for truth atall we have to do this however judgmental it sounds to you or to others. And as a non-Christian, you aren’t really in a position to understand this.

  83. Maz said

    Wangfu: #56.
    ”Way too many emotions driving this debate as opposed to God’s Word. Again, let’s look at God’s Word and make our decisions. Please respond to God’s Words. Not mine nor Ed’s nor Kasha’s………”

    Absolutely AMEN!

  84. Maz said

    VB #60: ”…..to think that a child of God would even consider to vote for any candidate in favor of abortion.”
    Amen brother I totally agree. If Obama is pro-abortion, whatever else he may present, this one thing alone should be enough to cause a Christian not to vote for him…..or anyone that is pro-abortin, pro-death. Jesus loves children, even the ones in the womb. God sees them as they are formed….and then suddenly someones hands invade and KILL IT. God help us all see how much God hates this.

  85. Pammy said

    I am getting to a point where I feel that “Christians” are using their tongues in a reckless manner without applying wisdom. I have been amazed as to how selfish and unfeeling some “Christians” view life.

    The definition of evil in every one’s view is relative, but one thing I know is that aborting an unborn child who is helpless, killing another in what ever form or shape is wrong – especially people who are helpless and different destroying them by guns or the power of the pen is wrong.

    Firstly I view Christianity as a personal relationship with God and I am amazed as to how some teachers be it in a white church or in a black church apply their own views to the congregation and not engage their minds to speaking and applying wisdom.

    I have heard and read some literature from James Dobson and co. I have now packed all the books written I have written by him and have come to the conclusion that his views are not exactly God’s revelation but his personal views. In order words he is seriously biased.

    The fact that we all have different challenges in this world is challenging enough. I don’t understand why some are born with a comfortable background and some are born with a difficult background but what I know is that the environment we find ourselves economically and socially does shape our lives.

    I am encouraged by people who re-invent their lives to make it great and as such I will support canditates whose lives promote change not has-beens that have managed to hide behind what the world finds acceptable. For the record Mr Dodson, come and live in a challenging environment and we can both sit down and talk about life and how we have overcome challenging issues.

    Just for the record I will vote for the candidate who promotes a conducive environment for me to praise and worship my Lord and saviour Jesus Christ and to promote his views in order to win more souls into the Kingdom of God.

  86. Maz said

    Ed: #64: ”Christians are commanded by God to use righteous judgment and to test what someone who claims to be “Christian” by the objective Word of God, and not just a subjective “feeling”.”

    Again, I agree, we must remember why we are here atall. We are standing for the truth of Gods Word on all the issues presented here, and that includes political issues, which I find are far too numerous on this site. They tend to create bad attitudes and fuel heated emotions. I will be glad when this is all over in November. Certainly God knows who is going to be the next President, and I know He is in control NOT the people of America!

  87. Maz said

    When there is this level of ‘disagreement’ among brethren and we get the ‘thou shalt not judge’ quote I always remember Jesus, meek and mild, gracious and loving, coming along to the temple one day, shortly before His appointment with death on the cross, and seeing all those money changers in the temple, ‘His Fathers House’, and I see the anger appear on His face as He takes up a few loose cords and starts whipping around Him with it shouting, ”This is my Fathers House, but you have made it a den of thieves!!” There are times when a Christian can be excused for getting such righteous anger that it causes one to ‘take up the lash’ so to speak.
    Abortion is one of those issues, though not the be-all and end-all of my stand in life, where I feel like lashing out……but it must be done under the control of Gods righteousness. Wrath is a God thing, and I think more Christians should get righteously angry about issues like this today.

  88. Maz said

    Pammy #85. Wise words. Good to see a post that is calm and thoughtful.

  89. Bookert said

    I voted for Obama yesterday and it felt great. I stood in line two hours before voting. Obama supporters, and there are a few of you in here – vote early! And take a friend or two or a hundred with you. The polls I’m reading are still calling it a tight race. The oppressive elite who talk religion while pilfering your 401-Ks are bums who need to be thrown out. It’s not over till it’s over, so get out there and vote.

    Re Dobson. What a narcissist. Listeners should count the times he says “I” or “me”. He steers every conversation back to himself, even if the topic is God. I can’t speak for God, but how can God not be bored with this boring old coot? FOF Action is playing the abortion card because the Fairness Doctrine stands a chance of redefining a.m. radio. They sense imminent disaster, so they’re willing to say almost anything at this point. btw, three or four months ago I predicted that Stu would be screaming “baby killer” at this point and here we are.
    Anyone here know what happened when Romania banned abortion? Check it out.

  90. Annette said

    I have been in prayer over this issue and have one question. Does anyone agree that we have become a spoiled, self-centered, self-destructive nation? We are, at the core, (Christians included) desiring one thing…….our comfort. We have lost touch with what is sacred, what is God-honoring and what our responsibility is and what it is not.

    Put aside our political candidates and look into our hearts. Only a people that desire comfort of lifestyle and pocketbook would “look beyond”
    what God desires for His people. I think there has been such a slow “caving-in” of our values and morals, that we somehow ended up here, and somehow, even Christian’s think a government will fix things. It won’t. History tells us over and over that evil, perverse, murdering governments topple over and are destroyed! God has never, and never will bless a nation that despises Him. We have worshiped the creation, rather than the Creator, and I weep for what we will become!

    Lets stop kidding ourselves. Our corrupt system will never have a balanced budget or promote God’s values for sanctity or life or marriage.
    But don’t think we will not give an account for thinking that we don’t have a responsibility to put people in power that may affect life and marriage. If we as a society, would begin to put others first, including the unborn, the elderly, the disabled, those society deems unimportant, and start managing our money with the mandates God initiated, 80-10-10, there would be such a transformation in our homes, families and communities! These mandates say live on 80%, (not living beyond what we make!) save 10%, so that we won’t have to rely on a corrupt system to bail us out, and give 10% back to God. I believe that if every Christian lived with this mind set, we would be financially free, We would have the means to support ourselves through tough economy times, we would have the God-given pleasure of seeing the blessing’s freely given to us by God, put back into the church to help change communities, by supporting those who are struggling financially and spiritually

    Let all of us pray for this nation. Let’s seek the face of God. Ask Him to show each of us what we should do, and then let’s agree to go where He leads us. Let’s not hate each other. May God open the eyes of each of us. May He heal our Land, May he save us from the extinction that He imposed on Sodom and Gomorrah! I believe that if we pray, God will not ignore us. Let’s also pray for our candidates. The end result of this election will be God-ordained, we need to be ready for the future. The future must include God-fearing, bible-believing people, who are not too proud to do the will of God, even when it goes against everything we think to be right in our own eyes.We must stop serving self and begin to live for God and his will.

    Remember what the Book of Revelation teaches us. The end is coming, nation will rise among nation, child against parent and vice versa, we will exchange Truth for a lie. Let us guard our hearts and minds against all things that are not honoring to Our Creator and sustainer God Almighty!

  91. Brad said

    Different people (including different Christians) are moved by different topics, and will have different reasons for voting for (or against) certain candidates. I’m not sure we can necessarily say who is right, or wrong. Neither candidate is perfect – they’re both sinners, just like everyone on this blog. Neither perfectly upholds Christianity in their daily walk, I’m sure. They believe differently about different things. Certain people will put certain issues above others. It’s hard to say who’s “right” about which issues to put ahead of others.

    Bottom line – we are each called to follow God’s will, and that includes being responsible with our vote. I feel that there is a candidate that I simply cannot vote for, if I am to be responsible with my vote, based upon what that candidate believes about certain issues. That is my personal convictions, for which I alone am responsible for. You may have different personal convictions, for which you alone are responsible to God for, which might allow you to vote differently than me. I answer for what I do, which includes my vote, and you will answer for what you do, which includes your vote.

    Be in prayer about whom God would lead you to, believe that He will lead you, and vote accordingly.

  92. Stanley said

    One issue voters are ridiculous. There are more important things happening than abortion. Do we forget about the thousands of Iraqi civilians we’ve killed? Do they not count as people? What about the American blood shed every day in an unnecessary war? What about the millions without health care that would be able to go to the doctor under Obama’s plan? What about our ability to be humanitarian now at risk because of unsound financial policy?

    I’m more pro-life than any neo or religious conservative.

  93. Maz said

    Annette: You have hit the nail on the head! That is the first and most important thing any Christian should do for their nation. As I am not American, I have my own nation on my heart, it also needs Christians to pray and seek Gods face, we’re in a similar position where the government does not promote godly living, and infact seems to be heading in the opposite direction. I am not on my knees enough, I pray God will help us all to do just that.

  94. Maz said

    Annette: ”Let all of us pray for this nation. Let’s seek the face of God”.

    I meant to paste this in first on my last post!

  95. Annette said

    Stanley, If every person managed their finances according to God’s principles then we would not need Obama’s socialist plan for health care.

    As far as war goes, do you believe WWI and WWII, the Civil War and all other wars were started to free the oppressed were in vain? I think you may be looking at your view on war from the liberal media’s lens and not Gods. God mandates the freedom of oppressed nations, unfortunately when we are dealing with evil dictators like Hitler, Mussolini, and Bin Laden, we cannot “talk ” our way into an agreement. If you study the Old Testament at all, you will see numerous times that God gave direct orders to kill evil leaders and nations. God even destroyed life (along with innocent people, in Egypt to free the Jews, in Sodom and Gomorrah, to show His hatred for sinful living. This is a broken sin-filled world. God is a God of order and love. Unfortunately many innocent will have to lose their lives for the laws of God to reign supreme. Even Jesus told his followers to take a sword for protection. Are you implying that there should be no death for the right of liberty and freedom?. How do you think this country of ours got to be so blessed with more freedoms than any other country in this world? Many innocent people died as a result. People died to end slavery. Does that make that war useless? When God’s people are freed from slavery, and other opression, there cannot even be a doubt that there is such a thing as a rightous war.

    By the way, as a child in a family of seven, we had no dental or medical insurance. We managed just fine….stop looking to bigger government to make your life easier! We all need to stop putting a smokescreen on the issues that God really is truly concerned about, based on what the bible says, and live as the blood-bought children that we claim to be!!!

  96. A said

    On behalf of all Christ Followers, I apologize to everyone for the unChristian attitudes and debates on this blog question in particular. We need to remind each other that many “outsiders” visit this blog on a regular basis and I am pleased that they do. One problem is that we often do a VERY poor job of representing the King of Glory who loves all of us. Although it is often difficult to do so, we must display the fruit of the spirit. It is not putting on an act but instead a result of the transformation that must be true if He is our Saviour, Lord, Reedeemer, Teacher, and Friend. I am a big believer that the main reason that many people do not come to Christ is because of what they see demonstrated by us with their own eyes. Please read the book unChrisian to gain a better understanding of what “outsiders” think of us. It is not their fault that we often give them many reasons to ignore us or hate the church. The way we treat others should be a reflection of what we believe about the love of Christ. When He was asked to identify the greatest of all commandments, His response had nothing to do with systems of right and wrong. He focused on our relationship with God and others (all others not just those with whom we agree). We tend to re-define what is most important. God forbid…

    Shalom…By His Grace !!!

  97. Stanley said

    “evil dictators like Hitler, Mussolini, and Bin Laden”

    This is where I stopped reading.

    With all due respect Annette, you don’t seem to know anything about… well, anything. Are you one of those 50% of Americans that can’t find Iraq on a map? Anyone who knows anything about the war in Afghanistan or Iraq knows Bin Laden is not, and never has been a dictator. Although, I do agree that he is evil.

  98. Kash said

    Annette says:
    “If you study the Old Testament at all, you will see numerous times that God gave direct orders to kill evil leaders and nations. God even destroyed life (along with innocent people, in Egypt to free the Jews, in Sodom and Gomorrah, to show His hatred for sinful living.”

    Yes. And if we live according to the Old Testament Law, we will be judged according to the Old Testament Law: death. Even Paul says so in Romans. Otherwise I have enjoyed your posts, Annette, because I do think that most of America’s problems right now are from being too selfish as individuals and as a nation. We want the highest standard of living in the world even if it means keeping other people from gaining that same standard.

  99. Stanley said

    Wait a minute.

    “I do think that most of America’s problems right now are from being too selfish as individuals and as a nation. We want the highest standard of living in the world even if it means keeping other people from gaining that same standard.”

    Are you a Democrat Kash?

  100. Jared said

    Maz

    Obviously we need to be careful with the words we use. I would argue that within the church we have become so “careful” with the words we use, in order to never offend anyone, that they are no longer God’s words, the Gospel and God’s word has lost its meaning as we have watered it down. You see Kasha above hasn’t a clue of God’s word and likely because she either doesn’t read it or at best very selectively and here church likely never preaches the offensive words found in the Word of our God. The gospel is horrifically offensive to those who are “enemies” of God. This life is, as Paul says, a “dung hill” …. do you know what that is? God told one of the old testament prophets to cook his food over the feces of the Israelites. He told another to go and mary a certain “Whore” in the city. He told Saul to slaughter every man, woman, child, and beast in the camp of the amlekites. In Egypt the damage inflicted was tremendous, before the Angel of the Lord slaughtered every first born child. Over and over again in the old testament we God chastising his people, with plagues, famine, war. And the culmination of all the sacrificial system was the Lord Jesus Christ, being beaten beyond recognition, spit upon, carrying his own tool of death, and being hung by spikes pounded through his hands and feet so that he could suffocate as his lungs failed him. His apostles were told point blank, prepare to die a martyrs death.

    Ours is a bloody … offensive (as is demonstrated by the hatred of it … even here), gruesome religion.

    And all of it magnifies our sin, misery, guiltiness, deserving of wrath and curse, and separation from a Holy, Perfect, Powerful, and Just God.

    Then He demonstrates to us his incomprehensible Love and Mercy without ever diminishing the former through the Lord Jesus Christ.

    When we water down the truth of God’s word we minimize his Glory, Transcendence, and the work of His Son our Savior. The hearts of those in his church should be the most humble and broken of all. We should weep over our condition and then and only then can we dance with joy and exuberance at what our God has done for us! “Who with the Lord can be compared in all the lofty sky and who among the sons of might is like the Lord most high!”

  101. Kash said

    Stanley,
    Your dismissiveness of opposing viewpoints is not helpful to the attempt to raise the level of discourse to a more thoughtful and considerate plane.

  102. Kash said

    Yes, Stanley, I’m a democrat…this time. Mostly I’m a Christian, and go with whichever party has the platform that I think addresses more of the issues that the Holy Spirit has convicted me on. Neither party ever lines up with Christianity all the way, because Christianity isn’t “pro America”, it’s “pro humanity”. A candidate for public office puts America before the world, and therefore will come into conflict with the selfless doctrines of Christ.

  103. Stanley said

    Guess not. How do you argue with someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about, yet they are convinced they’re correct?

  104. Stanley said

    I believe Kash just made the only truly Christian argument I’ve ever read on this site.

  105. Kash said

    Jared says:
    “Ours is a bloody … offensive (as is demonstrated by the hatred of it … even here), gruesome religion.”

    Perhaps practiced by you, Jared. But as practiced by Christ, ours is a loving, inclusive, beautiful religion.

  106. Pearce said

    I find myself asking a similar question, but adding McCain in as well. As a Christian I find myself unable to vote for Obama nor McCain. I decided to vote for Bob Barr.

    Be sure to know that a wasted vote is one not bound by conscience.

  107. Lauren said

    Maz, At least you’ll be across the ocean when this country implodes on itself because of zealots like some of these folk (I don’t include you in that category); you’ll be able to see the fiery glow from your back yard. What I’m reading from some of you is downright irresponsible, if not dangerous. As a matter of fact, reading this blog, it’s not too hard to understand how religion of any kind can spawn the kind of hatred and violence that we saw from Muslim extremist on 9/11, and many, many other times throughout history in the name of “God”. I guess I was naive enough to think professed modern-day Christians would behave differently… silly me. Make no mistake brothers and sisters, this election has an undercurrent of racial hatred, that if ignited by enough hateful words disguised as Biblical scripture, followed by radical actions, could rip this country apart (as was reported on the news just yesterday with the arrest of two men intent on killing Obama and many other innocents)! Great job Stu and TTL… you’ve contributed to throwing gas on this emotionally charged fire with your crusade against Obama and abortion, so I guess you’re happy with the explosion it’s causing. God help us all…

  108. Kash said

    Ed says:
    “Matthew 7
    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.”

    I AM judging the neoconservative wing of the republican party by their “fruits”, which is why I can not support them regardless of what they promise regarding abortion to try and gain my support. A few of their fruits: Katrina, not finishing the job in Afghanistan or helping the country rebuild to protect it from a resurgence of the Taliban, Iraq disaster (especially in the immediate post-invasion period which set the stage for all the later failures), health care, economy, divisiveness and partisan politics about EVERYTHING, Abramoff, the politization of the justice department, Walter Reed hospital, cutting of veteran’s benefits during a war, expansion of government into the private sector to the benefit of corporations and detriment of citizens, eavesdropping on American phone calls and emails…

    This is how I see it. How could I vote for the party that allowed all of the ethics scandals and administrative incompetence of the past 8 years? Why does that make me an “Obama plant” as if I am on his payroll or something? Why doesn’t that just make me a concerned American citizen, who is also a Christian, and happens to disagree with other American citizens, many of them Christians, about what is the best course for the next 4 years for our country?

    And most disturbing to me is the amount of vitriol shown here towards anyone who does not toe the Republican line. Do we worship an almighty, infallible God, or an almighty, infallible political party? I choose God to worship, and political parties to support or not as I see fit.

  109. Maz said

    Jared: #100. ”Obviously we need to be careful with the words we use. I would argue that within the church we have become so “careful” with the words we use, in order to never offend anyone, that they are no longer God’s words, the Gospel and God’s word has lost its meaning as we have watered it down.”

    I would readily agree with this but some words used within this site weren’t anything to do with watering down the gospel. Turd or scumballs are not words I’d use ANYWHERE.

    We must remember that one day God will judge us for every idle word we speak in this life (and on this site).
    James 3 v 8-10 says, ”But the tongue no man can tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless God, even the Father; and with it we curse men, who are made after the similitude of God. Our of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.” Read all of Chapter 3.

  110. Jared said

    Kasha

    “Perhaps practiced by you, Jared. But as practiced by Christ, ours is a loving, inclusive, beautiful religion.”

    Like Wang Fu pointed out, you are arguing against God, not me. I wouldn’t argue with Loving and Beautiful as I pointed out in the same post you took my above words from. The God of the bible is inclusive to those He has removed the heart of stone from, who are still “sinners”, and at the great bloody cost of his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, I would add. However, He is totally exclusive of those who he has not removed the heart of stone from.

    Jesus pointed out that those who are poor in spirit are blessed, for theirs is the kingdom of God and then he says to the people at the end of the same sermon “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    I think it would be valuable for you to sit down over time and read the word of God found in the Bible, as it is valuable for all of us. From reading your posts, I believe you might find that yours is a religion of your own making, but I am not your judge. God calls you to examine yourself against his word, as Paul wrote to the church in Corinth. As with all Christian we should spend plenty of time, first: corporately worshiping our God (where He has promised to spiritually nourish us and grow us in grace), Second: delighting ourselves in his word (reading, studying, singing, and contemplating it), and finally in prayer (where we should prostrate ourselves before our Holy God in all humility and praise him for his attributes and bring our requests in submission to his will).

    It is important to note that Stanley … a self proclaimed atheist … has said, “I believe Kash just made the only truly Christian argument I’ve ever read on this site.” This is very tell tail of Post 102 and would scare me sick if said about me by an atheist.

  111. Jared said

    Maz

    God’s word isn’t watered down and although we need to be careful … I agree with you … the truth about us and as is shown in His word is ugly.

    From the look of the church today, I believe we have erred on the side of not proclaiming the God’s truth and tried to make God’s word so palatable, that God has not used it. Look at the folks, even here, who claim christianity and yet have no knowledge of the truth. Abortion, homosexuality, evolutionary theory, etc … are all just fine with them and God becomes an inclusive god, which they become the master of. It is only their god … not the one and only true God.

  112. Maz said

    Jared: On the whole the Church has failed to evangelise with the pure and unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ and His blood shed on the cross to redeem us from judgment and Hell. That is, the Church worldwide, not just USA. There are ofcourse individuals, groups and ministries that are within the Church that do have a heart for the lost and seek to reach them for Christ every day of their life in some way or another. I use tracts a lot, I try to speak to people when the occasion presents itself. I saw two Mormons the other day and started a conversation with them in town, surprisingly they did a lot of listening as we discussed a very central truth….the Nature of God. They just couldn’t understand the Trinity.

    I have, eversince I was saved 36 years ago, had a heart for the lost and have been driven by this burden to evangelise in many ways in my town, and elsewhere aswell. I love outreach…but there isn’t enough of it!
    When will the Church wake up and see the lost and dying world outside their Church buildings!!?
    Let us all do more to seek and win the lost to Christ.

  113. Jared said

    Maz

    I am a turd. I do the things I don’t want to do and don’t do the things I want and should do, as Paul said. I am even a bigger turd/scumball than those who don’t know the Lord, because I Love Him and yet sin against him. I would say turd/scumball is actually nicer than saying sinner when you know what the word sinner implies.

    Jesus telling a parable said:

    He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

  114. Jared said

    Maz

    I agree and keep up the good work … His good work. But remember, God makes converts. We are to make disciples. A disciple is one who is knowledgeable as to the word of God. God tells us in 2 Timothy 3

    “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for *teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness*, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.”

    Jesus said:

    A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears, let him hear.”

    The doors of our churches seem to be revolving doors sometimes. We don’t equip people with the whole council of God’s word, as is demonstrated by this forum, so lots of truth, and converts with it, gets consumed or choked out.

    Remember our Lord was a very harsh at times with the pharisees, sadducees, and …. even his own apostles. And his apostles had harsh rebukes also, always in Love. Oftentimes those rebukes show His and our love the best.

  115. Maz said

    Jared: The words you use instead of sinner are not found in the Bible so why use them? ‘Sinner’ is quite adequate.
    One thing you seem to believe of yourself is that you are a worthless piece of nothing, and you are not. You are not even a sinner, because sinners sin because they can’t help it and they sin because that is their NATURE. We on the other hand are saints, children of God, and we are worth something because Christ paid the ultimate price to redeem us. We are worth something to Him. That doesn’t mean to say that we have an unhealthy pride in our position, we are what we are because of Christ, it is nothing we have done and can ever do. We must always humbly remember that.
    God has given us the victory over sin…..but ofcourse as I said before we still have the ability to sin if we let our guard down. That is why we need the armour of God to quench the firy darts of the wicked and his wicked devices to cause us to sin. We must never let sin have dominion over us.

    Do you realise that when God looks at us, all He sees is the blood of Jesus, He doesn’t see our sin, He doesn’t see us as sinners but as His children. I learnt that some time ago.

  116. Jared said

    Maz

    Actually sinner isn’t in the original texts either. It has been translated like “dung hill” and “Whore”.

    Yes we have great value, but only in Christ. And though my Nature to sin willingly and without remorse has been changed, I still sin, as does every other Christian on this planet. If I say I don’t sin, I deceive myself. Never are we told in this life we become sinless, only justified. See the tax collector and the Pharisee, the implication is that this is a picture of the saved vs. the lost or those who have been given sight as opposed to those who are blind. The poor in spirit inherit the kingdom of God, not the sinless.

    Justification and sanctification are two different things! They both reside with the saint, but as Abram (later Abraham) was justified before he was circumcised and before he lied about his wife and as with David also, he was justified before his great sins, yet they were both terrible sinners long after God had changed their hearts to sin.

    I take great comfort in this truth. And God does see our sin such that we fall under his fatherly displeasure as is evidenced by David, Abraham, Moses, etc. But in terms of our forensic justification he has paid the penalty through the great work of his son. Remember to remain Just, God had to punish those great and grievous sins Justly with his wrath and curse …. and he did so through the Lord Jesus Christ (A part of himself).

    Two unrelated things parenthetically … why hasn’t evolution extended life spans! You know … if everything is getting better and more complex … and are there always so many Haters of God on here. I wouldn’t think they would be at all concerned with Christian beliefs by their own admission.

    Great talking to you with all sincerity,

    In Christ

    I would be interested to know your:
    Christology
    Soteriology
    Ecclesiology
    Escatology
    etc and I spelled a bunch of that wrong.

  117. Mike S. said

    Here is the latest form the Obama Campaign…

    A new 30-second spot on Barack Obama’s Web site is urging voters to “talk to your boss” or professor and then take the day off from work or school to volunteer for his campaign on Election Day.

    The “Take the Day” campaign suggests voters sign up to go to battleground states or work in phone banks closer to home on Nov. 4, when they would normally be at work or in class.

    “We can’t win this election unless every Obama supporter gets out and votes on November 4th. To do that, we need a massive team of volunteers helping us. Can you take next Tuesday off from work, join the final push, and make sure that everyone who supports Barack turns out to vote?” asks the Web page hosting the ad.

    I think this accurately displays Obama’s idea about the government/citizen relationship. He wants us to go ahead and get started serving him. He’ll start taking our hard earned dollars to give to those who won’t work for it later. I thought the government was in place to serve the people, not vice versa. At least McCain/Palin understand that simple fact. Is this not scary?

  118. Jared said

    yet they were both terrible sinners long after God had changed their hearts to hate their sin.

    And remember Paul refers not only to the world and the devil. But also to his own flesh. A war is raging within a man. And though Paul knows what to do he fails and the very thing he knows not to do, he does and fails. This is true grace. That God would pay the debt for our sins past, present, and future! And when your heart is changed you don’t worry that you will take advantage of this truth, because you know that you cannot. Your heart hates sin though it still rages in the flesh. Thankfully, God has given us His worship including the sacraments where he promises to spiritually nourish and sanctify us. Not that He doesn’t effect us else where, but he promises to do it in corporate worship! And as I am sure you know *Gods promises are always kept* even when we always fail on our end.

  119. Maz said

    Jared; I think we agree on the meaning of what a sinner is.

    ”God had to punish those great and grievous sins Justly with his wrath and curse …. and he did so through the Lord Jesus Christ (A part of himself).”

    Did you mean to suggest that Jesus was only ‘a part of..’ God?
    Jesus is God.

    And that list. What do you want to know?

  120. Maz said

    Jared: Do you resist sin? Do you seek to live your life trying to live for God? Or do you believe you can’t help sinning so you sin anyway?

  121. F. L. A. said

    “I will confront you with your sin and Godless life.”-Ed
    Well Ed, I look forward to reading whatever it is that you think that you can confront me with. This should be rather interesting considering how little you know about me personally and my theological belief system.

  122. Jared said

    Maz

    Yes. I now can resist sin, being changed by the work of the Holy Spirit, and hate my sin and do seek to live for God, not just because of the consequences. But I don’t believe I will, in this life, become completely successful or for that matter very close to being completely successful. I believe scripture is clear on this subject. Progress will be made, yes (sanctification), but I don’t think people see the truth as the Bible reveals the great depths of their depravity and the monumental amount of sinfulness we people have. Not only am I referring to the sins of commission, which I commit, but also my sins of omission. God has commanded me to Love my wife as Christ loves his church and gave himself for her. I don’t do this well. He commands me not to covet and I am awful. No man I have yet met has kept the 7th commandment as Christ explained it in the sermon on the mount. I don’t Love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, and strength. You can list all of the ten commandments and I don’t do any of them as Christ has revealed is required of me. He did keep them, but I fall short, very short though I hate it and am shamed by it, which is every moment of every day, I sin.

    As for the trinity … I am no expert … Jesus is very God of very God and yet he had to be man also, but without sin. We cannot diminish either of these truths. While Christ was on earth he prayed to the father and clearly said he would send his Holy Spirit to his disciples when he left this earth. I suppose the best representation of how I understand the trinity might be the Nicene Creed. 318 Christian men crafted, to the best of their frail understanding, the truths surrounding Christ person in the trinity to stand firm against the raging heresys of their day. We have from scripture as Deuteronomy says “the Lord is one” and we also have as 1 Corinthians 13:14 says. “The Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” I obviously do not subscribe to Unitarianism, Binitarianism, or Modalism. Nor do I believe in polytheism. So obviously Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are God the Same in substance equal in power in Glory. However the Father did not come to earth and suffer nor did the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did lead Christ into the desert for 40 days and the Father poured out his wrath upon Christ on the cross (so we could be adopted as children). This will probably confuse the heck out of a lot of folks here, but this is one of those subject I don’t believe I can completely experientially understand. It is like time. I know it works, take it for granted by faith, and yet it is very difficult to reconcile especially how God is beyond it.

    The Chalcedonian and Athanasian creeds would also be helpful to understand my understanding. More generally speaking I am an Orthodox Christian who attends a church with a Presbyterian style of church government. People typically refer to people who attend this type of church as coming out of the reformed tradition. When God brought reformation to his church in Europe those continental and island reformers looked back to the early church for direction and used the early church fathers (Apostles) to reform themselves and understanding, be it imperfectly, as best they could understand. Obviously this didn’t happen perfectly with a bunch of sinners, but nearly all of the Christian churches in the world can trace their roots to the reformation in some form. Even the Catholics of today have the reformers to thank for clearly delineating their doctrines.

    As to the list. Look up the words. Wikipedia or a dictionary can do a better job than I. Just curious. Some doctrines and theology are key and cannot be compromised on as I believe we would agree. However others such as, escatology (understanding of end times), some ecclesiology (understanding of the church), etc … are not related to salvific subject matter.

  123. kevdei said

    can a Muslim enter and worship in a christian church and can he do that for 20 years..come on where do they find these people.. Please every stop listening to stu..wrtu is a great station but this is so jerry springer don’t you think..

    I am a Christian and I have a question for those with this dooms day attitude..you know the mass mailings as it relates to end time events.. As a Christian isn’t this what our hope is in..Our Lord’s Return..are you ready to be caught up..because the only time it’s going to get better is when Our Lord Returns…

  124. Michael said

    It is written, “It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes from his mouth that defiles him.” and it also written, “You shall know them by the fruits they bare”

    Obama has proved what type of ” fruits” he has. He has spoke out against our faith, and has stood strong on abortion and the right to choose. As Children of the most high God we have a commission to speak up for the innocent. Do you not know that the scriptures tells us in plain words that the blood of the innocent will be upon our hands if we stay silent.

    I am a father and a Christian. I CAN NOT vote for Obama with a clear heart and mind. As Christians we need to fast and seek God with our whole hearts and pray that the Lord will gives us a clear mind and choice on who to vote for on Nov. 4th.

  125. John said

    Hello again folks.
    My, my, so this is were the action is.

    Ed and Maz, it sounds as if you got a little too defensive[Or perhaps I should just use the word judgmental?] by claiming that as a non-Christian I’m in no position to “judge what is and is not good Christian theology”.
    To me this sounds an awful lot like someone telling a football fan “As your not a member of the N.F.L. then you’re in NO position to judge what is and is not a well played game of football.”
    Does this thinking make good sense to you? Because it sounds stupid and snobby to me.
    I said “As a non-Christian I realize that my judgment on these matters may be severely flawed, but what you said sounded like the main “meat and potatoes” of good Christian theology to me.”

    First off, I’d like to think that any Christian would be happy to hear an old school Pagan[You probably didn’t know about this Ed, but most all of the older posters do. Go read the site “Understanding the World of Wicca and More” for more insight and perhaps ammunition[You might like to think] to use against Ferox[F. L. A.].] offering support to a Christian, as the stereotypical Pagan is not supposed to care about such thing.
    In the first part of my sentence I made it clear that I realized that my judgment in these matters may be severely flawed[because I am non-Christian]. This is a display of humility and open-mindedness on my part as well as an honest assessment of my understanding of others as not being “absolute” facts. You should give this a try sometime[smile].
    There’s a difference between showing common courtesy to others and in being “politically correct”, you know.
    Within the second part of my sentence I made it clear that this was simply my personal opinion, that what Kasha said sounded like good Christian teaching to me.
    I didn’t proclaim to everybody “Kasha you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! Now that’s what Christianity REALLY is, and anyone who disagrees is a big,fat,Hell-bound FOOL!”

    Besides, I have many Bibles, I listen to Christian radio shows, I have many books on the various forms of Christianity as well as related topics and religions[Judaism, Satanism, Catholicism, the Koran, encyclopedias of Angels and Demons, High Ceremonial Magick, etc.] I visit churches, websites like this, interview local pastors, and actually know a few real live Christians[grin] personally. So I think that I’m entitled to have a rather well rounded opinion/idea of what the basics of good Christianity basically are.
    Now, if I had made a comment about SALVATION, or the APOCALYPSE well, then your comment would have perhaps made a little more sense and been more justifiable.
    “Real Christians” like you appear too quick to jump to conclusions in regards to how other people “really are”.

  126. James said

    The simple fact is there is no issue more important to a Christian than the murder of preborn children. You simply cannot be a mture Christian and vote for any person who is pro-abortion. In order to vote for such a person, you either are not a Christian or you are an immature Christian still feeding on milk. It’s time to grow up people.

  127. Maz said

    John: I accept what you say. But it would be a lot better if you were actually ON OUR SIDE so to speak (become a Christian), for then you could speak from personal knowledge and authority. But you were humble enough to proclaim your ignorance on the matter.

  128. Maz said

    As James said, I think that putting a stop to the systematic killing of babies in the womb simply because they are unwanted for the most part, is the top priority for all who understand the value of life and the preciousness of children. Jesus certainly loved children and blessed them wherever they were. Ask yourself, whoever you are that argues that it is just one of many issues, what Jesus would say and do about abortion. Would He not be even more angry and upset than He was in the temple with the money changers?…….would He not go into the abortion clinics with a whip and drive those out that systematically tore out these tiny little babies from the warmth of the mothers womb?

    Kasha: Is not the systematic killing of babies more vile than economics or any other issue on the agenda? When anyone is found guilty of murder, aren’t they usually given a longer sentence than one who has stolen? or lied?
    Nothing makes me cry more than this awful state of affairs in our civilized nations. If Obama is pro-abortion……..then every Christian should NOT be for him, or anyone who is pro-abortion.

  129. F. L. A. said

    John was a Christian, Maz, once upon a time[Well, that is to say that he once gave the theology a try for a few years in his troubled youth.] Sometimes the best and only thing that can be done is to just accept people for what they are.

  130. Maz said

    Jared: So…Soteriology.

    Eph: 2 v 8,9 states, ”For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.”

    So salvation is nothing to do with what WE can do, but what Christ did on the cross.
    We must accept, believe and receive that gift to be saved.

    Titus 3 v 5 also says, ”Not by works of righteousness that we have done but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit.”

    We have been regenerated, born-again, made alive to God when we are saved by His mercy and grace.

    Sanctification and Justification.

    1 Corinthians 6 v 11 says, ”…but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of God.”

    Heb: 13 v 12 (13-14), ” Wherefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.”

    1 Thess: 4 v 3-4, ”For this is the will of God even your sanctification, that you should abstain from fornication. That everyone of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour.”

    We are to be separate and set apart (sanctified) from the world, we should be seen to be different.

    Romans 3 v 20, 24-26, ”Therefore by the deeds of the law (works) shall no flesh be justified in His sight. Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness, that He might be just, and the Justifier of him who believes in Jesus.”

    Romans 5 v 1: ”Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ..”

    All that the scriptures say (in the above and in other scriptures) is what I believe as far as salvation, justification and sanctification is concerned.

  131. Maz said

    F.L.A: ”John was a Christian, Maz, once upon a time[Well, that is to say that he once gave the theology a try for a few years in his troubled youth.] Sometimes the best and only thing that can be done is to just accept people for what they are.”

    He once gave the theology a try for a few years? What does that actually mean? Did he accept Christ as His Savior? Did he recognise that he was a sinner needing salvation? Was he born-again by the Spirit of God? Was he filled with the Spirit? Did Jesus Christ dwell i his heart by faith? You cannot be a Christian without these. It sounds like he only had an intellectual experience not a spiritual one. But I would be interested to know whether he was actually SAVED or not.

    And we Christians don’t want to accept people as they are if they are on their way to hell, we want to see their life changed by the power of God and saved from judgment to come.

  132. Mike S. said

    I believe we are sanctified exactly the same way that we are justified, by the Holy Spirit through the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ alone, not by anything that WE do. Although our DOING is a natural outflow in loving response to be being grafted into the family of God. Our fruit begins to bear, not by us grunting and working really hard, but by the life juices of the vine naturally flowing through our hearts. We (Christians) are also “glorified” in the same way yet we will be judged and rewarded for the good works or lack thereof while enduring life in fallen world.

  133. Jared said

    Maz …

    Thanks and Good. It can get significantly deeper and technical, but that isn’t worth getting to deep into here.

    Mike S.

    You need to be careful saying we are sanctified and justified the same way. Unless you are a Catholic, your theology is probably not consistent with that understanding. And from the rest of what you wrote it is highly unlikely you are Catholic, but rather catholic. Most Protestant churches would say Justification is forensic in nature and only needs to occur once and has complete finality from that point forward. Sanctification is ongoing. Obviously both are a work of the Holy Spirit, and this is probably as you intended to point out. Not being a function of our own ability. And one must proceed the other. You cannot begin the process of sanctification until justification has occurred. We are not progressively justified, but we are progressively sanctified. Obviously the source of both in all its facets is the same, our gracious, merciful, long suffering God. You did a nice job with the flow of fruit (works) as a natural response of our loving God … not being in anyway tied to our justification, that only occurs through the blood of Christ. But sanctification is a process and that of our God’s spiritually nourishing us. We need a lot of sanctification in the Church in this country for example. Look in these forums and see what the self proclaimed Christians hold as opinions … and completely independent from the word of God I might add. Glorification is on the other end of sanctification and again will be final and we will be rewarded according to that sanctification process. Justification| …. sanctification …..|Glorification. In that progression.

  134. Mike S. said

    Yes Jared, the sequence went unmentioned. Thanks for the clarification. My point was that sanctification, like justification, is by Christ alone through faith alone. Contrary too many others beliefs, such as Catholics.

  135. Maz said

    I agree.

  136. Stanley said

    I disagree.

  137. Kash said

    Maz
    “Kasha: Is not the systematic killing of babies more vile than economics or any other issue on the agenda? When anyone is found guilty of murder, aren’t they usually given a longer sentence than one who has stolen? or lied?
    Nothing makes me cry more than this awful state of affairs in our civilized nations. If Obama is pro-abortion……..then every Christian should NOT be for him, or anyone who is pro-abortion.”

    What makes you think I care a hoot about the economy except as it affects the poor and marginalized? I have explained before my Biblical basis for voting for Obama, but here goes again:

    Matthew 25: 31-46- What you need to do for Jesus to claim you as His (the sheep versus the goats)
    “I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat”: Obama has promised to spend more and spend more efficiently on welfare and WIC programs
    “I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink”: Obama and the democrats are more likely to address environmental issues, which directly impact whether or not people will have access to clean drinking water (or water at all in some parts of the world) in the near future
    “I was a stranger and you invited me in”: Obama and the democrats are more likely to pass immigration reform that punishes those who employee illegals rather than the illegals themselves.
    “I was sick and you looked after me”: OBama and the democrats are for taking SERIOUS steps to ensure anyone can get health insurance; but they don’t even go far enough in my opinion.
    “I was in prison and you came to visit me”: my pro-life position extends to the death penalty.

    My pro-life position also makes me vote for the candidate most likely to get us out of the war in Iraq, and go back to Afghanistan to rebuild that country so that the Taliban doesn’t take over again and force us to bomb again which will kill more innocent civilians again.

    Now, on the abortion issue. Parial birth abortion is banned – there is a federal ban now. Yes, Obama voted against the bill in the Illinois legislature because there was already language that protected those children born alive (less than 1% of all abortions are late term, by the way), if you want to argue this fact please go read factcheck.org first. Obama felt it criminalized doctors and opened the door for more challenges to all abortion policy. I happen to disagree with him on this, and wish he had voted for the ban. I pray that he amends his view on abortion to being for more restrictions.

    This is my opinion of Roe v Wade, and this is why I don’t think voting for a candidate that promises to put conservative judges on the bench is the only issue a Christian should consider (see the above issues mentioned specifically by Jesus). McCain is going to cut medicaid, medicare, welfare, and other so-called entitlement programs. Let’s say a single woman gets pregnant by her boyfriend. The boyfriend doesn’t want her to have the baby and offers her no financial support. Here are two scenarios: in one scenario, she is guaranteed low cost health care for her and the baby, welfare for the time that she can’t work due to pregnancy and before the child can go to daycare, and help paying for daycare. The other scenario is that she will have no health care, her baby will have no health care, it is up to her to manage to keep working AND somehow take care of this baby.

    Which scenario is more likely to encourage this woman to choose life? And don’t talk about her irresponsibility, I recognize that, but what we are discussing here is how to promote LIFE once the mistake is made.

    And lets say all of you get your wish, and in addition to cutting welfare, medicaid and medicare, abortion is made illegal. Wealthy women will go overseas. Poor women will go to backdoor providers like they did before Roe v Wade. Now we have no way to reach these women to educate them about adoption, programs that might help them, etc.

    My pro life position, which I am perfectly spiritually at peace with after much prayer and Bible reading in spite of what many of you assume, is that abortion needs to be legal, but restricted and RARE. We can accomplish that as Christians regardless of who is President, look at what we’ve passed in regards to restrictions on a state to state basis. Also look at what can be accomplished by “40 days of prayer” and working at Crisis Pregnancy Centers. Meanwhile, we need a leader who has experience working with the oppressed and the marginalized to support the programs that encourage ALL of us to embrace a consistent ethic of life and service, which is what Jesus speaks about again and again and again.

  138. Maz said

    Kash: ”My pro life position, which I am perfectly spiritually at peace with after much prayer and Bible reading in spite of what many of you assume, is that abortion needs to be legal, but restricted and RARE”

    Repeat ”abortion needs to be legal”.

    Apart from what else you said, you are still sanctioning killing babies in the womb, RARE or not. Do you think Jesus would?
    I still cannot understand a Christian thinking it should be legal ATALL, except to save the mothers life after all that has been done. Even then, I don’t even like saying that. Ofcourse prayer to the Lord should be our FIRST priority in such extreme matters. It always should be.

  139. Stanley said

    Jesus had his child. Abortions back then were pretty gruesome.

  140. F. L. A. said

    Maz, John’s Grandmother just died and the houshold is in a…complicated state of affairs. Thus, you probably will not hear from him tonight about his past experience as a Christian.
    Tomorrow does not look very promising either.

  141. F. L. A. said

    Would you please do me the favor of telling me what you know about the child of Jesus, Stanley?
    Ancient abortions need not have been gruesome.
    Pagans both European and American have had the knowledge for a….very loooooooong time about which herbal potions could induce an abortion.They are listed within books nowadays as “Birthing Aides”.

  142. Maz said

    F.L.A: #140. I am so sorry, my thoughts and prayers are with him.

  143. Stanley said

    His tomb has been found with Mary, Jesus’ mother, and wife, Mary Magdeline; along with Jesus.

  144. Kash said

    Really, Maz? After all of that, you still focus on the fact that I think it should be legal?

    Obviously, if you think that abortion should be allowed in cases of maternal health, or possibly rape or incest, it has to be legal in some cases. Then there is the whole debate about whether it should be legal in cases where there appears to be a defect in the fetus that will make it unable to survive outside the womb. Yes, sometimes doctors make mistakes no matter how good the ultrasound, and I personally would choose to carry the baby to term and pray for a miracle, but I would not judge someone who chose differently.

    BTW, all of you who think that any destruction of embryos under any circumstances equals wrath of God: why aren’t you protesting outside of in vitro fertilization clinics? Every successful IVF pregnancy results in thousands of “surplus” fertilized embryos that end up dying in cryogenic storage containers after being stored for some amount of time. Why is this somehow different than your definition of abortion as infancticide? If you are going to be consistent in calling people baby killers, you will have to call any couple who turned to IVF in order to have a baby also a “baby killer.”

    I am just trying to get people to think beyond the knee jerk angry rhetoric and look at the big picture. I, obviously, do not condemn anyone who conceives using IVF.

  145. Maz said

    Kash: Did you read my last post to you #138? In fact did you read your own post I replied to? You

  146. Maz said

    Sorry, ignore my last post, I misread your post.

  147. F. L. A. said

    That is kind of you Maz, and I will be sure to bring it to his attention, I am certain that John will be most appreciative.
    Her death was very peaceful, she just did not awake from her afternoon nap.
    She was of an extreme age[late 80’s] and had no regrets[I think. Too late now, though, right?].

  148. Tripp said

    Hahaha!!!! Stanley is reading too many Dan Brown books.

    Too bad King Thomas isn’t on here anymore.

    You two would be just like peas and carrots.

  149. F. L. A. said

    Ah yes, King Thomas.
    You know Stanley, “King” Thomas actually said that he was descended from Jesus.He also said that he was related to dragons[Some title of royalty, not the reptilian monsters that knights were always fighting with in legends.],elves[Your guess is as good as mine.] and that he was a vampire.
    It is because of his absence that I now think of MYSELF as holding the title of “T.T.Lives Weirdest Poster”.

  150. Bookert said

    Regarding Lauren’s comment that Stu has become the Jerry Springer of religious radio. Your analogy fails, Lauren, because Springer is actually a thoughtful, intelligent man. He knows that he’s pitting one peasant against another for fun and profit. He’s not actually one of them. But Stu. Stu actually believes what he says!

    Regarding the “question” of the day — it doesn’t matter if Obama is a Muslim (and he’s not). The greatness of America depends upon its secular infrastructure. Religion – any religion – if held in check, won’t hurt the country. But when the state and the church merge into a single governing body we all suffer. I strongly recommend HOLY HORRORS, a thin book on the church’s dark history. Perfect for Halloween.

  151. Maz said

    Bookert; ”Stu actually believes what he says!”

    And what is wrong with that? Do you not actually believe what you say?

    It is very clear you are ignorant of the threat of Islam in this world if you think it would be safe to have a Muslim as President of America. LAND OF THE FREE? Not under Islamic law!!

  152. Stanley said

    I don’t know if you noticed, but Obama isn’t a muslim…

    To say otherwise is worse than ignorant.

  153. Maz said

    Will a certain person please note: Bookert said, ”it doesn’t matter if Obama is a Muslim (and he’s not) The greatness of America depends upon its secular infrastructure. Religion – any religion – if held in check, won’t hurt the country.”

    My post #151 was in response to what B said.

  154. Stanley said

    Right, but you’re still saying Obama is a muslim, which he is clearly not.

  155. Lauren said

    As much time as some of you spend on this site, I’d like to encourage you to take time off to listen to this sermon titled, “How Does God Vote?”. It does NOT try to encourage you to vote either way, so there’s no propoganda to be afraid of here. I do hope it would enlighten a few of you.

    http://gracecommunitychurch.org/sermons/

  156. Maz said

    #154: ABSOLUTELY NOT….READ IT AGAIN.

  157. Stanley said

    You’re right. My bad. But I agree, a President’s religion would reflect their decision making, and if a candidate is Islamic, it really reflects poorly on their decision making. Unfortunately, you can’t run for office and be almost atheist. When I run for president, I’m pretending to be a religulous fundie for votes.

  158. Maz said

    Lauren: Great sermon! Great Word! I encourage all Christians on here, whatever side you think you are on, to listen. It’s worth the time it takes.

  159. James said

    Kash: After reading how you twist the Bible to fit your liberal agenda and to justify your voting for a baby killer, it’s quite clear that you are not Christian or are so new to the Faith that you have no rational understanding of Biblical principals. None of the passages you cite says that the governemnt has the right to steal from some to give to others. Every passage cited applies to individuals and the church caring for the sick, the tired, the imprisoned, and the poor, NOT the government.

  160. Lauren said

    Thanks for the kind words Maz. I thought it was a wonderful way to approach the election and wanted to share with others, no matter what side of the political fence you’re on.

  161. Gail Reid said

    I am just so appalled, that the AMERICAN people have turned their backs on God, where are your morals?. and in the bible it does clearly say that abortion is a sin. THOU SHALT NOT KILL. have you all forgotten the 10 commandments? And how can anyone not believe in God, you are breathing, aren’t you? people, Jesus Christ died on the cross for you……Does anyone care? and think about it…Obama has an excuse for everything…from whether or not he is a muslim, to denying his real dealings with ayers. and also refusing to acknowledge jesus christ as our lord. WAKE UP AMERICA…. one day, every knee will bow down to our savior, jesus christ. even you obama.

  162. Stanley said

    James, how dare you call yourself a Christian.

  163. Maz said

    Gail: I agree somewhat with your feelings, but we cannot be too general and lump every Amercian or Christian in the same pot. There are some who truly DO care about their country and follow the Lord and His Word. I can say that because I AM NOT an American.

  164. John said

    Thank you for your prayers, Maz.

  165. Maz said

    John: God is there…………how are you today?

  166. John said

    Hello everyone!
    My apologies for not getting back to you sooner Maz.
    I am doing very well thank you. I took today through next Monday off due to family matters that need attending to right now, what with everyone coming in for my Grandmothers going away party[Ha.Ha. And on Halloween too! It’s almost ironic n a way.] and due to this being such an inportant religious holiday for us to boot.
    How are you doing way over there? What’s the weather like?

  167. Maz said

    John: We had snow in London yesterday. It’s very cold but sunny today.

  168. John said

    It is 89 degrees frt. over here. Looks like a rain is coming, sounds like it too according to the treefrogs.

  169. F. L. A. said

    “I will confront you with your sin and godless life”-Ed post#71

    Well, Ed?

  170. Paul said

    The book of Judges tells of a time when “every man did that which was right in his own eyes”(judges 17:6)and the nation fell into chaos. There was a complete lack of morality. That’s where we are headed. The poeple trying to lead are’nt trying to do wrong, they are tying to do right.But they’re blind,so what they think is right is actually wrong. When the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch. Make certain you have real wisdom God’s wisdom. Don’t allow the darkness to be your light.

  171. Paul said

    As more and more audio and video emerge on Barack Obama’s desire to redistribute wealth, not to mention his views on the housing crisis that has torpedoed the U.S. economy, I keep returning to two columns I’ve read by Frank Marshall Davis, the communist journalist-agitator who mentored Obama in Hawaii. While much attention has been paid to Obama’s relationship with communist-terrorist Bill Ayers — and rightly so — much less attention has been devoted to Davis. That’s a mistake, since Obama was influenced more by Davis than Ayers.

    Davis, who is now deceased, was an African American from the Midwest who had worked as a columnist for the Chicago Star, the communist newspaper of Chicago, a city that had one of the largest CPUSA affiliates, and, in fact, hosted the September 1919 convention that launched the American Communist Party. Though Davis always tried to conceal any communist associations — ironically, Obama supporters have picked up that torch — there’s no question that Davis was a communist, as is immediately evident upon reading his columns, examining his background, or consulting with people in the party (to this day) who confirm he was a communist. The fact that he was at least a lower case “c” “communist” is obvious. It takes a little more digging to find evidence of his membership in CPUSA — but not much. Among the sources that reveal his membership are Davis himself, notably in a letter he wrote to a friend, published posthumously by his biographer, Professor John Edgar Tidwell. “I have recently joined the Communist party,” wrote Davis.

    In 1948, Davis just happened to arrive in Hawaii the same time that leaders of the Communist Party in Hawaii — realizing the limits of national party organs like the Daily Worker and People’s Daily World — established their own weekly newspaper, the Honolulu Record. In 1949, Davis began writing a regular column for the Record, titled, “Frankly Speaking.” This was a key form of agitation work that Davis would do for the party in Hawaii for decades.

    A young Barack Obama knew Davis in the latter 1970s, introduced by his maternal grandfather, Stanley Dunham, who, in many ways, saw eye-to-eye with Davis, and saw in Davis a potential role model and father-figure to his grandson. Dunham and Davis were close friends.

    Though proud of Davis, and very affectionate toward him, Obama sought to obfuscate the identity of Davis in his book, Dreams from My Father, where he strangely referred to him only as “Frank,” conspicuously avoiding his full name. Politically, Obama needed to make Davis anonymous, whereas, personally, he could not avoid acknowledging in his memoirs a man who meant so much to him.

    I’ve connected these dots through my Cold War research, which is grounded in primary sources like the Soviet Comintern Archives on CPUSA, FBI files, recently released CPUSA documents at Tamiment Library, and much more. This has brought me into contact with various communist characters and fellow travelers who have molded or worked with Barack Obama, from Davis to Bill Ayers to Saul Alinsky.

    So, that’s all background on Davis’s identity and how Obama knew him.

    Now, what about those columns I mentioned earlier? Obama’s recent remarks on wealth redistribution made me think of two Davis columns in particular, both for the Honolulu Record:

    The first was Davis’s January 26, 1950 piece, “Free Enterprise or Socialism?” Davis hoped that America and its economy were at a turning point, as if a kind of perfect storm was brewing that could at last allow him and his comrades to realize their dreams of a socialist America. They would need to trash the current free-enterprise system and argue for a change to something else. Of course, they could not fully disclose themselves, their beliefs, and their intentions, although any thinking observer could easily read between the lines. The key was to gain the support of the people who didn’t know any difference.

    Davis began his article by asserting, “Before too long, our nation will have to decide whether we shall have free enterprise or socialism.” He pointed to actions in Congress, where he quoted the then-chairman of the Congressional committee on small business, who, according to Davis, warned that “at the present rate, either the giant corporations will control all our markets, the greatest share of our wealth, and eventually, our government, or the government will be forced to intervene with some form of direct regulation of business.”

    Davis did not like “big business” and the rapacious, “tentacled” rich men who ran it. “For instance,” wrote Davis, “Alfred Sloan of General Motors announced that his gigantic company made a profit last year of $600,000,000, more than any other corporation in history. Over the years, General Motors has swallowed up or knocked out car manufacturer after car manufacturer so that today less than a handful of competitors remain. Free enterprise, eh?”

    “Monopolies” like GM had to be controlled by the government, said Davis. If not, the likes of GM would control the government. “Obviously, a business that can show a profit … of $600,000,000 is in a position to control government,” wrote Davis. “When we remember that the directors and major stockholders of one industry also shape the policies of banks and other huge corporations, it is easy to see that the tentacles of Big Business control just about everything they think they need to insure continued profits.” Davis claimed that, “The control of our wealth and government by the giant corporations … [was] accomplished fact.”

    Davis believed that it was such free enterprise run amok, allegedly un-regulated and un-checked by the federal government, that had caused the Great Depression: “For many years now we have been living under the virtual dictatorship of Big Business which all but drove us to ruin in 1929.”

    Davis was grateful for the grand intervention of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who he believed had saved the day: “By curbing the excesses of the giant corporations that had led to the economic crisis, Roosevelt was able to save the system from complete collapse.”

    Even then, FDR, in Davis’s eyes, had not done enough: “And yet the moneyed men who were bailed out by the New Deal program were our late president’s [FDR’s] biggest enemies. They have refused to see that in order to preserve their hides, they had to hand out a few drops of gravy to the common man.”

    Toeing the Stalinist line, as he always did without deviation, Davis then blamed American capitalism for starting World War II. That had been the party line issued by Stalin in his February 1946 Bolshoi Theatre speech. It was a ridiculous, outrageous lie, one that infuriated Democrats and Republicans alike. Nonetheless, the lie became marching orders for Davis and other comrades at party organs around the world. It was their duty to follow that party line, and they happily saluted the red flag. In his column, Davis zeroed in on the true bad guys of World War II: “This bolstering of a sick economy ended at the outset of World War II. Multi-billion-dollar expenditures for the means of killing fellow humans brought added profits and Big Business emerged stronger than ever before in history after V-J Day.”

    And now, in January 1950, things were especially grim under President Harry Truman, who Davis particularly despised, given that the Democratic president was, at the time, publicly condemning, countering, and seeking to contain Stalin. Moscow had told the good comrades to take special aim at the “fascist,” “Hitlerian” Harry Truman, and Davis did precisely that, unceasingly demonizing this icon of the Democratic Party. For the hard left, the current American president had to be bludgeoned beyond recognition; the left did so with great success, as Truman would eventually leave office the most unpopular president in the history of American polling — until a man named George W. Bush.

    There was a conspiracy, suggested Davis, between Truman and even larger monopolies “fattened” by recent mergers. Wrote Davis: “With this added weight to throw around, and a president [Truman] willing to do their bidding after the death of Roosevelt, our giant corporations have had things pretty much their own way. Government policy is fixed in Wall Street and transmitted through the corporation executives who have been appointed by Truman to high federal office. OPA was killed, the Marshall Plan launched and the nation placed on the brink of war economy — so that such firms as General Motors could make $600,000,000 profit while unemployment skyrocketed.”

    Davis, for the record, hated the Marshall Plan as much as he hated Truman and Wall Street. That was because Moscow hated the Marshall Plan, which was intended first and foremost to keep Western Europe from falling to communism.

    What’s worse, said Davis, was that America was busy simultaneously giving a bad name to socialism. Many Americans, especially conservatives, recklessly tossed around the “S word.” “At the same time we have manufactured a national horror of socialism,” wrote Davis. “Meanwhile, the dictatorship of the monopolies is driving us down the road to ruin.” Alas, we could expect “still rising unemployment and a mounting depression.”

    “[T]he time draws nearer,” advised Davis, “when we will have to decide to oust the monopolies and restore a competing system of free enterprise, or let the government own and operate our major industries.”

    I will let you guess which solution Davis preferred.

    Comrade Davis put it more bluntly a few weeks later in his March 2, 1950 column, approvingly quoting Woodrow Wilson: “The masters of the government of the United States are the combined capitalists and manufacturers of the United States.” In that column, Davis was most concerned with the inability of poor Americans to purchase “a decent home.”

    For Davis, the only hope was a huge, emboldened federal government that could save Americans from the capitalists, that could rein in fat-cat corporations, that could slap down Wall Street and its excesses, that could spread the wealth, and that could ensure that the poor could buy a home.

    To bolster his case, Davis went back to the height of the Great Depression, borrowing a 1935 quote (allegedly) from the governor of Pennsylvania: “I warn you that our civilization is in danger if we heed the deceptive cries of special privilege, if we permit our men of great wealth to send us on a wild goose chase after so-called radicals while they continue to plunder the people …. We are constantly told of the evils of Socialism and Communism. The label is applied to every man, woman and child who dares to say a word which does not have the approval of Wall Street.”

    Do not look to the conservatives for help, said Davis. The conservatives were racists: “If I were conservative, that would mean automatically that I think we have gone too far in trying to break the yoke of color bondage and that I am in favor of greater discrimination … not less.”

    Davis warned that some fear-mongers would try to silence the likes of him by branding him a socialist, or a “Red engaged in subversive operations,” or “an agent of Moscow.” “But I, personally, have no intention of being silenced by a label,” wrote a stoic Davis. “I do not intend to be frightened into submission to the status quo.”

    What I’ve shared from these two columns is only a sample of what Frank Marshall Davis, Barack Obama’s self-acknowledged mentor, wrote for decades. This was his thinking. Coincidentally, Davis’s form of agitation would have been at home right now with the current housing and economic crisis in America. He would have been in his element, thriving — on autopilot.

    It is amazing, though not surprising, that today’s Democrats will help cover for Frank Marshall Davis, given that Davis despised their party and constantly worked to undermine its heroes throughout the Cold War. Modern Democrats are oblivious to the nuances of the early Cold War and still don’t appreciate the communist threat of their day, including the fact that the communists viewed them as idiots to be duped; the communists were not their friends. Still, liberals will dutifully protect the likes of Frank Marshall Davis so as to elect Barack Obama, the current Democratic nominee — as Harry Truman and John F. Kennedy roll over in their graves.

    To what degree are Obama’s comments on the economy and taxes influenced by the communist-socialist ideas of Davis? No doubt, the question is fair, given that we only know of the Obama-Davis relationship because of Barack Obama himself, who opened the door in his memoirs. I could never have written this piece if Obama hadn’t acknowledged Davis. Obama was mentored by Davis in his late teens, before heading off to college, where, as Obama wrote in Dreams From My Father, he hung out with the “Marxist professors” and attended “socialist conferences.”

    And yet, not a single one of our nation’s leading journalists has asked any such questions. They are far more interested in Sarah Palin’s wardrobe and Joe the Plumber’s license. The New York Times is busy with bigger issues, like Cindy McCain’s history of murder and mayhem.

    It is truly, truly amazing to behold. For modern journalists, truth is second to their politics.

  172. Deni' said

    The REAL QUESTION should, or better yet, WOULD a REAL CHRISTIAN who was – is following the lead of Jesus Christ be involoved in earthly affairs such as politics? Which government did Jesus Christ tell his followers to pray for? His Fathers! How many times did He make the point to say, He was no part of the world and neither were His followers. Read again and think about the “Lord’s Prayer” and then say which government or kingdom He was praying for. My last thought is this, how can anyone who is a REAL CHRISTIAN not see that killing is killing to God. I don’t think He cares if it is done in an abortion clinic or on the battle field. I know people say war is necessary to keep people and freedom safe. But the Bible does not make stipulations for when killing is justified by God. One of the Ten Comandments: “Thou shall not kill” – If everyone endorsed the Kingdom Of God like Jesus Christ did, there would be no wars and no abortions. Do I support the troops? Absolutely. Bring them home! Have you checked the number of people that have died from this war or all the wars together? And I don’t mean just the soldiers. How about the babies, little children, the women, men , old and young who have been killed only because they happened to be born in that particular country or part of the world. And I’m talking about those who do not take part in the war. Do I approve of abortion? Absolutely not! I believe life begings at conception. And there definitely are scriptures showing how God feels about the death of unborn babies. If a person caused the death of a mother and her unborn child, or the unborn child and not the mother, check for yourself what the consequences were. Wake up people. All people – the congregations and especially the religious leaders. Remember who wanted and had Jesus Christ killed? The politicians and the religious leaders. I hope my comment is not deleted.

  173. Ed said

    Deni’,
    There are two good reasons why Jesus does not speak on government. 1) The Jews did not have any say in the government they were in. 2) Trust in governemnt instead of God is Idolotry. This does not mean have no influence in government. The United States Government was based on the Bible. Look at the founding fathers of this nation. If the excuses for abortion were allowed when Jesus was born, would he have been aborted?
    Murder – premeditated killing.
    War – conflict between nations usually involving death. Soldiers kill because ordered to and to save life. Murderers kill for personal reasons. Ask a soldier that had to pull a trigger how they feel about what was demanded of them. Ask a police officer who has had to do the same. Then ask a murderer the same question. The issue is in the heart.

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