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President but not Pastor?

Posted by truthtalklive on October 22, 2008

A woman in the White House…one heartbeat away from the most powerful office on earth?  Many conservative evangelical leaders, including Richard Land, talk show host and former president of the Southern Baptist Convention,  don’t have a problem with that, but they wouldn’t allow Sarah Palin to pastor a church. The height of hypocrisy or what?  We want to know what you think.

A related editorial here.

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39 Responses to “President but not Pastor?”

  1. Stanley said

    Don’t worry. McCain is going to lose. Palin isn’t going to be in line for the White House, praise Jesus.

  2. A said

    I don’t think that she is qualified for either position. Neither does America…even the conservatives. This will still be an entertaining show.

  3. Korey said

    One of the main arguments against Obama is his lack of experience and qualifications. Hence, his choice of Joe Biden who is older and more experiences. Also, does NORAD really contact Alaska when the Russians get squirelly? Not thinking so Stu.

  4. Bookert said

    The Right is supporting Palin because she’s a right-winger. All other qualifications are secondary. If she was a right wing secularist she’d receive the same support. If she was religious left-winger she’d be dismissed as hopelessly compromised. Belief is fundamental to everything in Land’s world. The poor man is hard-wired to believe what he believes. He didn’t discover “The Truth” and recognize it as the Truth and begin believing it. The belief was there first. Land had an angry Old Testament-shaped hole in his soul and Scripture (cherry-picked of course) stepped up to fill it. His world view? Those who fall in line with The Truth are right and those who don’t are wrong. It’s as simple as that. Why anyone would take a guy like Richard Land seriously is beyond me.

    The notion that a woman – even a right-winger – could rise to become the leader of the free world is probably grotesque to Land. His response — that she can have the Nation but can’t tamper with his Church sounds a bit immature to me — like a little boy’s response to his overpowering mother. Guess what, Land, if Palin decides to pursue evangelism she’s not going to check with you.

    Anyone know Joyce Meyer’s response to Land? How about Paula White? Are they slipping by on a technicality? Are television ministries exempt from Land’s decree?

    Last point – you Truth Talk guys need to wake up. I guessing you’re surrounded by agreeable, kittenish womenfolk, but the women I know aren’t about to ask a man’s permission to run anything – religious OR secular.

  5. John said

    It’s good to hear from you again, Bookert.

  6. Cathy said

    Bookert,
    Change the channel…there are a few thousand other radio stations out there, so if you are not a Christian, which you obviously aren’t, why are you bothering with us? The bible says you are respsonsible for what you know, so if you keep listening you are going to ‘know’ yourself right into eternal damnation unless you open your mind and heart to Christ. Then again, as I re-read your comments, you obviously haven’t learned much. But for the record, the bible cleary tells us that women are not to lead men in the Church. The female ‘pastors’ you mention are in direct violation of the teachings of Christ. However, God himself called women such as Deborah to be judges, so women are allowed to lead in some areas; in the Church, their ministry should only be to other women.

  7. jAsOn said

    Perhaps I’ve misunderstood the comments so far, but it seems to me that you have all misunderstood the point of this thread, is it hypocritical to, one the one hand, support a woman for office in civil government, and other the other, disqualify a woman from being a pastor/elder? Simply put, the answer is no…it isn’t hypocritical because the organizations of the Church, and civil government are completely different, in function and in ultimate purpose. Likewise, God has ordained different qualifications for their offices. The bible doesn’t allow for women as the pastor/elder/bishop in the church, and that is the authority Christians use. Meyer, White and others (as well as the denominations who ordain them) are in error.

  8. Mike S said

    Bookert, “I guessing you’re surrounded by agreeable, kittenish womenfolk”

    Too bad you have never been exposed to a Proverbs 31 woman. But then again maybe you have and you can’t stand her. All indications are that Sarah Palin is one of them. She is much more qualified than Robamahood ever dreamed of being.

  9. Maz said

    Bookert: I’m certainly NOT kitten-ish!! Grrrrrrrrrr!

  10. Brad said

    The Bible doesn’t allow women to be pastors or elders (the 2 Scriptural church offices). It does not, however, prohibit women from being leaders in non-church settings. So to say it’s OK for Palin to be VP, but not a pastor, is not a contradiction, nor is it in disagreement with what the Bible says.

  11. A said

    I love many of the discussions on this blog. This one is no exception. Here’s another wrench to throw out there. The Bible is not only a book that teaches right and wrong. It is very much a love letter from God to the world that describes the nature of God, how we can relate to Him, and how we can relate to each other. I say this because too many of us get caught up in looking for and expousing rules rather than celebrating relationship. Re-examine the life of Jesus and you will discover that He did not come to create a system but to invite us into an awesome relationship with Him. I am not saying that anything goes. I am saying that we must follow Christ’s example.

    Cathy: I do not see anything in Bookert’s post # 4 that makes it obvious that he is not a Christian as you posit. It is very clear that he is not a “right winger” so I hope that you don’t take that to mean that he is not a Christian. Many will be surprised to know that not all Christ followers are right wing. Although I often disagree with my friend Stu and his guests on many things, I enjoy the show and respect other perspectives. Nonetheless, some days I do have to change the channel.

    Maz: I’ve seen you go toe-to-toe many times with guys on this site. There is certainly much more growl that purr with you.

    Bookert: I agree with most of what you said. One exception is that not all right wing ladies are kittenish.

  12. A said

    BTW, I pray for Governor Palin, Richard Land, the staff at WTRU, and all of you. My prayer is for all of us to experience the fullness of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. In that relationship, I pray for all of us to be all that He desires us to be. Blog and radio debates are fun, however, this is what matters most.

    In His Love…

  13. Mike S. said

    A
    “Re-examine the life of Jesus and you will discover that He did not come to create a system but to invite us into an awesome relationship with Him.”

    Yes, however, He certainly instructed us to live by certain rules though. The sermon on the mount certainly espoused many rules and gave us many commandments. All of which of course hinge on loving Him and our neighbors. He also, commanded us honor our governmental systems. “give to Ceaser what is Ceasers”.

    I appreciate your style of communicating your beliefs by the way.

  14. stu said

    You’re absolutely right about Palin’s experience in this respect: she does NOT have the experience and is completely unqualified to vote to advance DEATH in our culture-

    –on the other hand–her opponents both Biden and Obama are EXTREMEMLY qualified and experienced and have proven themselves well in voting for EVERY PRO-DEATH piece of legislation and that has come across their desk–INCLUDING voting 4 times to allow Abortion survivors to DIE—-not to mention every tax hike, and they opposed the surge which has made us safer….etc, etc etc,… IS THAT THE KIND OF EXPERIENCE WE NEED? IS THAT THE KIND OF CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN?
    where am I wrong?
    please listen today —-one state is about make abortion illegal altogether—–wait until you hear this today—-would you support this if it was on the ballot in your state?

  15. Maz said

    Brad # 10. But I wonder if God hadn’t chosen David as King of Israel would He have chosen a shepherd girl instead? I don’t think so. As far as I know He always chose KINGS to rule His people. Actually Presidents are scriptural……Kings are.

  16. Maz said

    Sorry I should have said, ”Actually Presidents AREN’T scriptural.”

  17. Maz said

    A: I’v learnt to give as good as I get on here.

  18. Maz said

    #14. Good one Stu!

  19. Brad said

    Maz, while I agree with most of what you usually say, I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this issue. We can wonder “what if” to a LOT of things in the Bible; however, without perfect knowledge, which none of us have, it is impossible for us to say for sure what “might” have happened under different circumstances. “What if” Adam & Eve never ate the fruit? “What if” Abraham never slept with Hagar? “What if” Moses hadn’t been found by the Egyptians? There are far too many “what if” scenarios to focus on them, and use them as proof.

    Did God choose kings? Yes – that’s undeniable. Does He say, anywhere in Scripture, that ONLY males can rule outside the church? I don’t find that. If there is Scriptural evidence to support that (rather than an argument from silence or a “what if” argument), I’d love it if someone were to present it.

    Thanks.

  20. VB said

    Jason,

    Awesome answer (#7). We must follow God’s standards and not the worlds. There is nothing hypocritical about a woman serving in the office of President but not in the Pulpit. It would be hypocritical for God’s children to think otherwise. We must grow in grace AND knowledge.

  21. Maz said

    Brad: I know it doesn’t say God would not use a Queen as a leader, yet when you look in the scriptures He always seem to have Kings, now there must have been a reason and I think it is quite obvious. He used men for leadership in a nation.

  22. jAsOn said

    A,

    you said, “Re-examine the life of Jesus and you will discover that He did not come to create a system but to invite us into an awesome relationship with Him.”

    Actually, if you look at the life of Christ you will see that He “systematically” taught His disciples. If we didn’t systematically form doctrines through the exegesis of scripture, then doctrines such as the trinity, the deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement, and justification by faith alone, through grace alone would not likely be learned, and Christianity would be lost. So you can’t pit the systematic study of scripture against the relationship we can have with God through Christ; without the system, there likely is no relationship.

  23. F. L. A. said

    Maz, I do not believe Americans would never accept any leader with a title of royalty attached to their position. All of that ended shortly after the “Boston Tea Party”.
    The last person to be tolerated with the title of king we Americans put up with was a man named Elvis.

  24. Maz said

    F.L.A: Did you mean ‘never’ or ‘ever’?

    Yes, I was an Elvis fan when I was younger, he was King in the music world.

  25. F. L. A. said

    I meant never, until I decided to re-wright the sentence but forget to change that one word.

  26. F. L. A. said

    “re-write”, that is.

  27. abc's said

    F.L.A.

    There was also Michael Jackson, the King of Pop.

  28. Maz said

    And King Kong!!!

  29. F. L. A. said

    I am so jealous of King Kong.I wish IIIIII lived on that island with all of those cool beasties[Siiiiiiggh…].
    Alright, so lets just say then that Americans do not mind “royalty” as so long as they rule over the unimportant and humanity still thinks that it gets to do whatever it wants[Although there WERE an awful lot of people who became upset for some strange reason when Princess Diana died in that car accident].

  30. Maz said

    F.L.A: When you read the OT about the kings of Israel you can see that there were good kings and bad kings. When you had a good king, the nation prospered. When you had a bad king, the nation suffered. Royalty today means nothing. Our Queen, Elizabeth 2, is nothing like the first. Elizabeth 1 actually ruled the country of England, but our Queen is simply a figurehead, she has little power except that which the government give her.

    Yes, there was an awful lot of people moved to tears by Diana’s death. But it turned almost into idolatry, people calling her the Queen of heaven and a goddess.

  31. F. L. A. said

    Admitted, my social life is nearly non-existent, but I know not anyone who called Diana a Queen of heaven and/or a goddess.
    A Goddess?
    Why?

  32. Maz said

    F.L.A: I don’t know why, but over here we had these books of condolences for people to write something in and I saw plenty of idol worship in the words for Diana and for Dodi too.

  33. F. L. A. said

    Hmmmmmmm.

  34. Anonymous said

    JAsOn says that “The bible doesn’t allow for women as the pastor/elder/bishop in the church.” I would think this person considers the epistles of Paul to be part of the Bible, and within them are instances of Paul praising women for the work they are doing running churches in their homes, instead of chastising them for having the audacity to claim the office of pastor. Anyone who wants to cite scriptures about ‘keeping silence’ and so forth, may I suggest an excellent audio teaching, the link to which I have provided below:

    [audio src="http://www.stfpodcast.com/File/may_jun_2001_role_of_women.mp3" /]

  35. I didn’t mean to submit the above reply as anonymous.

  36. Jared said

    For the Christians:

    The question here should be more fundamentally asked. The three realms of life (church, family, government) … how are they structured in relationship to one another and more fundamentally in relation to God and his word.

    Obviously, God never tells us in his word a woman can’t lead a family, His church, or the Entire country.

    Wait … I said can not. Women have already demonstrated on an individual basis that they are capable of filling these roles. Oftentimes better than their male counterparts.

    The question is should they given God’s revelation? If you believe each of the above mentioned institutions or realms of life is separate, in horizontal relationship with one another, and dealt with by God in a separate manner then you should believe a woman should fill leadership roles in Government. If you take God at his word and you either are a woman minister/elder or sit under the teaching of one, you must skip preaching or reading those sections about submission to your husband, submission to God appointed Elders, and qualifications for serving in a role of leadership within the church. God makes it very clear in many places, but 1 Timothy 2 kind of ties it back to the creation and fall. Well … not kind of. So it becomes rather difficult for women, in terms of scripture, to argue in leadership roles.

    If you view God over his church (vertical relationship), the family being in a vertical relationship to the church, the government then being in the even lower vertical relationship under the family, in other words each being in submission to all above and supporting the purpose of the ones above it, then it becomes obvious that God’s word is relevant to each and although, women are very capable (can do it and in some cases well), it is inconsistent with God’s commands for women to sit in positions of authority over men and quite consistent with what scripture tells us about the fall and the effects of sin.

    I happen to believe in the vertical or pyramidal relationship. So, although women can and might even be in many cases better at many aspects of leadership, God has made it clear that women in leadership positions over men is contrary to his explicit word.

  37. Maz said

    I have always been uncomfortable about a woman being the soul leader/Pastor of a Church. If a woman is to be in any kind of leadership she should be under the headship of a husband.

  38. John said

    Post#36-OOPS! Sorry Jared, I read the post anyway[smile].

    Maz, but what if over time her husband has become an idiotic jerk?

  39. Maz said

    John: Then she would have to step back and let another Pastor and wife (if he has one) take over the Church.

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