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Did Jesus Really Rise From the Dead?

Posted by truthtalklive on September 9, 2008

Guest host Alex McFarland www.alexmcfarland.com , President of Southern Evangelical Seminary www.ses.eduwelcomes Dr. Gary Habermas www.garyhabermas.com , one of the world’s foremost experts on the resurrection of Christ.  They discuss ancient evidence of Christ’s resurrection as well as recent archaeological discoveries. Dr. Habermas will be part of the world class line-up of speakers at the upcoming National Conference on Christian Apologetics, November 7-8, 2008 in Charlotte, NC. More info at www.nationalapologeticsconference.com

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130 Responses to “Did Jesus Really Rise From the Dead?”

  1. Maz said

    YES. Or who is that living in my life?

  2. Stanley said

    You.

  3. Maz said

    Stanley: Besides me. ”I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me…”, Galatians 2 v 20.

  4. F. L. A. said

    Resurrection of a deified figure is not exclusive to Christianity you know, Maz.
    I could provide you with a list……

  5. Maz said

    F.L.A: Please don’t worry about it.

  6. Stanley said

    I’d prefer not to be crucified with anyone. I haven’t done anything to deserve that.

  7. abc's said

    Based on the evidence we have from medicine and history, I think that it is extremely unlikely that the events happened the way they were recorded.

    What i’m interested in is what your interpretations from the Bible are for what Jesus was doing those 3 days between the crucifixion and the resurrection?
    What’s the significance of 3 days. Why not 2, or 5, 7?

    Was he resurrected by God the Father, the Holy Spirit, or did he raise himself? Is there even a difference? Why or why not?

  8. Maz said

    Stanley: Do you have any idea what being crucified with Christ means?

  9. Maz said

    Abc’s: As far as who resurrected Jesus is concerned, the Bible tells us not only that God raised Him from the dead, but that the Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead…and…that He raised Himself from the dead. As they are all the One True God then the whole Trinity would have been involved.

  10. F. L. A. said

    The number 3 has a loooong history of magical and supernatural significance in various cultures around the world, from the Celts to the Greeks, Abc’s.
    Perhaps when Christian mythology/theology was being created this theme was copied. This is also suspected of the idea behind the Trinity.

  11. John said

    I’ve known some people who thought that Jesus was some kind of a vampire.Really! How does THAT grab you[smile]?

  12. Maz said

    Stanley: We don’t drink blood, we drink wine to remember that Jesus shed His precious blood for us. The communion was instituted by Him, to remember His death until He comes.

  13. Maz said

    Sorry that last post should have been for John not Stanley!

  14. Stanley said

    Shew.

  15. F. L. A. said

    What is wrong with dri-oh,nevermind.
    John never said that you Christians did, Maz. Only that he knew people who held that theory.

  16. Stanley said

    People including: Everyone else.

  17. Maz said

    F.L.A: OK.

  18. F. L. A. said

    Stanley, are you implying that MANY people believe that Jesus was some kind of a vampire? I admit that although my social life is severely limited I find this difficult to believe.

  19. Nino Baldino said

    well lets see,a man gets whipped some 39 lashes with steel tipped chains,stabbed,nailed to a crossbar,left to hang in the open air for 3 hours,then laid in an air-tight tomb,covered with 100lbs of spices and cloth..guarded by the usual 16 man team of soldiers,,in three days he is seen by hundreds..I kinda believe in them not the media.

  20. abc's said

    Nino

    Well let’s see, a man is the most famous rock and roll singer of all time. He died of a heart attack on the can. Dozens of medical examiners studied the body and prepared it for a funeral. He was embalmed at the Memphis funeral home. His funeral was attended by so many eye witnesses that it was protected by 300 National Guardsmen.
    More than 30,000 people viewed his open casket and paid their last respects.
    People still report sightings of this man. Some believe he was a communist. Some claim he was an alien and flew away in a spaceship.

    Whom should we believe?

  21. Maz said

    Nino: He was on that cross for 6 hours, 9 a.m. till 3 p.m. But that’s an accurate description of what Christ went through…..for the whole world.

  22. Maz said

    Really Abc’s, there is no comparison.

  23. F. L. A. said

    Nino Baldino, welcome.
    He was CLAIMED to have been seen by 500 people, by Paul.
    This is rather different than 500 individuals testifying that they saw Jesus after his death and entombment, and Paul agreeing with them.
    Good comparison Abc’s.
    This is like the point that John and I have been trying to make with People like Maz in regards to being able to believe that someone like Jesus or something like the Christian Bible could be real and have truth to his/it’s story, and yet still not believe everything about the story as absolute Truth.

  24. F. L. A. said

    Are you sure Maz?
    How would anyone in this age really know?

  25. Maz said

    F.L.A: The Bible tells us he was seen by Peter and the disciples then by over 500 brethren at once, some remained alive at that time and some had died. Afterwards he was seen by James and the apostles. Then Paul saw Him. Believe it or not, it is true.

  26. F. L. A. said

    As true as a six thousand year-old universe?
    Perhaps it was true, and perhaps it was not as it has been portrayed. As we only have the claims of ancient dead men to verify this event, I shall continue to take the story with a grain of salt and and agnostic stance.

  27. John said

    Post#12, Thankyou Maz, I assumed so.
    I was always partial to the idea that Jesus may have been some form of extraterrestrial, after reading the different versions of the ascension. Strange that so many of his own disciples doubted his resurrection, Mark:11-14. I guess it seemed too good to believe, hmmmm?
    There’s so much that I would add to these discussions, but Ferox always seams to steal my thunder[which is not so bad, really, as it gives me a lot less typing to do, heh!heh!].

  28. Maz said

    F.L.A: Funny, but a lot of our history is based on what ‘dead men’ said. You would believe that. But because it is the Bible……mmmmm.
    Ofcourse the disciples found it difficult to believe that Jesus was alive, though they saw Him, they had seen Him die a tortuous death. But even ‘doubting’ Thomas came to recognise Who He was and that He was the resurrected Lord and God.

  29. Maz said

    That last part of my post was for John too.

  30. abc's said

    Maz

    The people who wrote the gospels were not the apostles themselves. The men that wrote the stories were not present at the time of the events they describe.

  31. F. L. A. said

    And claims are on a slightly different than historical facts.

  32. Anonymous said

    Abc,

    Have you read “Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony” by Richard Bauckham. In light of your post in #30, I think you will find it interesting.

  33. Maz said

    Abc’s: Funny, I thot the gospels were headed…Matthew…a disciple, Mark….a disciple, Luke…..a disciple outside the twelve who also wrote the Acts, and John….a disciple. They were all there at the time. They were EYEWITNESSES.

  34. Anonymous said

    I’m not going to pretend to be a biblical scholar, or that i’m particularly interested in textual research of the New Testament. I can’t imagine much that could be more boring than that.

    I will only say that no amount of text could overcome the evidence all around us that shows that once a person dies, they stay dead.

    Remember the Elvis story? People still report EYEWITNESS accounts of him today.

  35. Maz said

    Anon: There’s more evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ than there is for evolution!

  36. abc's said

    Maz

    #34 was mine.

    I believe we’ve discussed the evidence for evolution at length. I formally teach the subject. I already know that you reject the evidence, and that we aren’t going to agree.

  37. Stanley said

    No. Many people believe Christians are ritualistic cannibals.

  38. Stanley said

    Not me though. I understand symbolism.

  39. Kash said

    The apostles obviously believed that they had seen Jesus. They went from being too scared to stay with him through his trial to bravely proclaiming him througout the region. They went from being scared of death to being courageous in face of death, and all died martyr’s deaths. THat is what convinces me that they really saw the resurrected Jesus. I don’t know what else would have wrought such a change in them, from fearfulness to fearlessness.

  40. Stanley said

    Leonidas made me unafraid of anything.

  41. abc's said

    Kash

    My only issue with that line of reasoning is that it is only sufficient that the apostles “believed” they saw Jesus resurrected. Their belief in what they saw doesn’t automatically mean that what they saw was real. It goes back to the Elvis story again.

    The Heavens Gate cult followers died for their beliefs, so did the ones who followed David Koresh. Scientologists actually believe in their ideas, so do Muslims and they die martyr’s deaths all the time. History is filled with examples of this.

  42. Maz said

    Abc’S: They didn’t just ‘believe’, they ACTUALLY SAW HIM with the wounds in His hands and feet.

  43. Stanley said

    How is Jesus immune from death, but not pain and suffering?

  44. Maz said

    Stanley: Sin causes death. Jesus didn’t sin. So death couldn’t hold Him down.

  45. abc's said

    Maz

    How could Jesus claim to be fully a man then?

  46. Maz said

    Abc’s: Because He was born of a virgin…….He did not innherit an earthly fathers blood, tainted by sin. He had His Fathers blood running in Hid veins. It had to be pure to be shed for the sins of the world.

  47. Maz said

    Sorry I didn’t check my spellings!

  48. Kash said

    Abc,
    Yes, but Koresh’s followers died with him, not after he had died. Still, you are right, the apostles may have just been nuts. I just don’t think so. Also, Jesus appeared to Paul. And Paul was radically changed by the experience, but from his letters he seems quite sane.

    Stanley, Jesus was not immune from death. He died. He was resurrected. That is how he earned victory over death.

  49. Kash said

    Abc,
    Also, I see a difference in a muslim suicide bomber who martyrs himself to blow up infidels, and a believer who continues to preach the good news and is killed by the authorities. I actually think it takes more real courage in the second instance. Its sort of like it took more courage for Germans to stand up to Hitler and get executed (like Bonhoeffer, for instance) than to go along with Hitler and get killed fighting for him.

  50. abc's said

    Does God the father have blood running through veins? or genetic material?

    Children don’t inherit blood from their parents. They are a product of a sharing of their parents genetic material and a little random genetic mutation.

    Why is shedding blood a redemptive act?

  51. abc's said

    Kash

    Those are good points.
    I’m personally not able to find enough evidence there to believe in the whole story. I would have to make too many leaps of faith.

  52. Kash said

    Jesus as the “sacrificial lamb” is the culmination of the laws of sacrifice of the Hebrew nation. The Israelites, God’s “chosen people”, were required to make sacrifice for their sins, and also to offer sacrifice in certain situations (weddings, births, etc). Thus the atoning power of blood. Because Jesus is the messiah, he was a final and ultimate sacrifice for all.

  53. Stanley said

    Did he get 23 chromosomes from God?

  54. abc's said

    Kash

    I’m sorry if i’m coming off like a novice. I am well versed in the popular beliefs and tenets of Christianity and Judaism. I know “why”. I meant to pose the question in a more philosophical way.

    What I mean to ask is more along the lines of “Why would a God with infinite power and knowledge decide that a messy death is the best way to achieve atonement and forgiveness from himself?”

    On a side note, by stating that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifical lamb that needed to be offered up for redemption, I think that tacitly implies that the laws of the God of the old testament were real at one time, i.e., it was a sin punishable by death to backtalk your parents, or to do work on the Sabbath. Do you truly believe in these things also?

    I really am curious. Do people that say they believe in the Bible really believe in all of it? I have a hard time accepting that.

  55. Kash said

    Perhaps we should check the shroud of Turin for chromosomal fragments (smile).

  56. F. L. A. said

    To add a little to statement#52 by Kash, this is why there is no longer a need for animal/blood sacrifice/burnt offerings after the sacrifice of Jesus.Allegedly.

  57. Maz said

    Abc’s: #50. Firstly God provided the blood in Jesus veins, but the Father is a Spirit so it wasn’t His physical blood. And it is the father that passes on the blood to the child.

    Shedding of blood goes right back to the garden of Eden when God had to sacrifice animals to cover the shame and nakedness of Adam and Eve after they sinned. The price of redemption from sin had to be blood because the life of humanity is in the blood. Jesus poured out His Life and died that we might receive forgiveness of sins, and He rose again so that we could be raised to a new life in Him. Becoming a new creature. Read Hebrews ch 9-10.

  58. Kash said

    Abc,

    Actually, I think those are great questions that aren’t faced honestly by enough Christians. I don’t know that we know “why” God “set it up” the way He did. But this is how I understand it – God created Adam and Eve (or humanity, if you are less literal) because He wanted to create something to share in his creation. Something that had the capacity to love. Love requires free will. Free will means they could choose to sin, and they did. Enter evil. God, being all-knowing, knew that humans would sin and evil would enter the world, but He chose to create humans anyway because of love. But He had a plan to deal with evil – the blood atonement, first of animals, later Him in human form (Jesus), and ultimately all evil will depart from the world (the end times). Did it HAVE to be this way? WHo knows apart from God? Does it seem a little weird? Yeah, I guess so. If I had been God, would I have done it differently? Well, that question is impossible to answer, little human brain that I have. The universe is so infinite, and God is beyond that, so it’s a little hard to judge.

    For me, it is just so freakin obvious that if we all would put ourselves totally in God’s will, and put others ahead of ourselves like He did when He was here, everything would be heavenly. Yeah, I know, it’s not gonna happen that way, and until the endtimes anyone who really lives like a servent of mankind the way Jesus did (and urged His followers to do) is going to get crucified. Thus all of us Christians hedge our bets and try to be nice but don’t really go all the way, you know? And Jesus forgives us for that, but that’s why the world doesn’t look much like the kingdom of God.

    Does that help at all?

  59. Kash said

    Oh, and as far living by the law in the Old Testament: yeah, the Hebrews were supposed to live by that law. Its pretty harsh. They couldn’t do it. Which is why they had to sacrifice a lot of animals. Its also why Paul explains in Romans that the law brought nothing but death, because no one could follow it perfectly. Thanks to Jesus we don’t live by the “law” but by faith. Even the Hebrews misunderstood the law, and applied it incorrectly (God scolds them, saying He desired mercy rather than sacrifice). Anyway, my take on it is that mankind can not come up with rules that will fit every situation, which is why we need to live with love and mercy, not vengeance and judgement.

  60. abc's said

    Kash

    “For me, it is just so freakin obvious that if we all would put ourselves totally in God’s will, and put others ahead of ourselves like He did when He was here, everything would be heavenly.”

    I agree that if we all treated each other with respect and put others before ourselves then things would be much better. I don’t believe that we need the Bible and religion in order to act more civilized.

    I think a lot of our problems come from people who genuinely believe they have put themselves in God’s will. After all, how can faith be epistemologically valid when it provides no method for distinction between true and false propositions.

  61. Kash said

    “After all, how can faith be epistemologically valid when it provides no method for distinction between true and false propositions.”

    For me, faith is the only thing that gives me a method. But I come to radically different conclusions than others who share my faith. So that’s the problem, and I agree. Just out of curiosity, since you do not have faith (in Jesus, anyway) what method do you use? Or do you think it’s impossible to tell if something is true or false?

  62. John said

    Now seems an opportune time to share something with all of you that I happened upon last night. Check out and read the website:”How can sin be forgiven or redeemed?” by Satori.
    I am not saying that I agree with all of it personally, it is not for me, but it is an interesting view to ponder.
    Tell me what you all think about it.

  63. Kash said

    John,
    Too similar to “name it, claim it” type Christianity or occult positive thinking stuff like “The Secret” for me to give it much credence. And I don’t think his logic holds up as far as why a perfect deity can’t create an imperfect world. Perfection is a human construct and has no bearing on God. If God is God, He can do and create whatever he wants, including a situation where through introducing Free Will, imperfection (evil, sin) becomes a reality.

    But an interesting read. It just reminds me of stuff I read back before I became a Christian, that was intellectually intriguing but ultimately unsatisfying to my soul.

  64. Kash said

    Oy, I just re read my post and that last sentence sounds self righteous! Sorry. For me, Christ provides something that nothing else was able to fill. I wasn’t raised a Christian so I explored a lot of faiths and philosophies growing up. But I kept coming back to Christ (not Christianity, per se, as it is practiced).

  65. Maz said

    My sister has read Satori and altho she was once a professing Christian, she seems to have gotten off into New Agey stuff, so anything she reads would be questionable anyway. What I read certainly is. He questions Gods ability and that for a start is rooted in pride. That was the first sin on this earth. Satan had it too. (he still does).
    Sin is disobedience……as man had free will, he had the freedom to disobey therefore that is how sin entered this world. Was God wrong to give us free will? I think most people would say no.
    He didn’t want to create robots or puppets, He wanted children. What father doesn’t want his children to love him…..not because they HAVE TO, but willingly?

  66. Maz said

    Kash: I agree with you too.

  67. F. L. A. said

    Kash, John did not agree with Satori’s entire philosophy either.We just thought that it was an interesting read on the topic of sin from a Christian perspective[Your’s, not his].We wanted to see how Christians such as yourselves thought about it.

  68. Kash said

    Right, and that’s what I thought about it. Not theologically valid for me. But I think its good to challenge our conceptions of “pat” concepts, just to make sure we are working on our growth as Christians. Making sure we are getting beyond “milk” and becoming mature believers. So my take on Satori is that I don’t agree with his logic that sin can be extinguished by refusing to accept it as reality. As i said in previous post, his assertion that God could not allow sin into His perfect creation does not hold up in my theological understanding of the Bible. Sin is real. Only atonement can expunge it, specifically the atonement of Jesus.

  69. F. L. A. said

    If John decided to go swimming and convinced himself that Alligators, Caimans, and Crocodiles no longer existed, do you know what would happen? First the crocodilians would be confused by his behavior, and then they would be well fed.

  70. John said

    Well, ONE big alligator[and perhaps a small school of scavenging BlueGills]would be well fed. Faith in something is great if you can make it work for you, but the concept of “sin” is so empowered by so many people in the world that I don’t see how Satori’s philosophy could have very much of an effect outside of one’s own personal conception of “reality”.
    And he’d probably need to have a real safe, easy life too.
    It surly wouldn’t work for me with my life.
    I have met other Pagans[actually, they were probably more like “New Agers” than pagans, at least by my definition of the word]that did not believe in evil, of in evil spirits[“demons”] because they either refused to acknowledge such things[some weird form of denial?], or they saw the universe through “rose colored glasses”.

  71. Maz said

    John: Would you say that those who refuse to acknowledge God and Jesus Christ His Son, would be in ‘some weird form of denial’ aswell? Mmmmm.

  72. abc's said

    Kash

    I guess I would say that I use the scientific method to determine what it most likely true or false.

  73. Maz said

    Abc’s: There are some things you cannot measure or determine with a scientific method. Spirituality is something else. There’s no scientific method that can determine the existence of God.

  74. Jeff42 said

    How would one use the scientific method to prove, say, that Abraham Lincoln was the 16th president of the United States?

  75. Kash said

    Scientific method is great for distinguishing facts. Facts can be used to develop theories which may or may not be true, but if they hold up to further experiment and inquiry, probably are true. But then there is Truth….which has more to do with stuff that is hard to conduct experiments on. God, spirituality, ethics, philosophy, meaning of life, etc fall in that realm of beyond what scientific method can investigate. That’s where faith comes in. I agree that any faith that denies facts and thinks that all theories are equally valid is intellectually lacking. But that doesn’t mean that faith has no roll to play in the human experience, and that it can’t play a role in discerning Truth.

  76. Maz said

    The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is certainly something we have faith in but is also a fact that is supported by evidence.

  77. Mike S. said

    Abc
    How about using the SM to prove this truth claim. “It’s wrong to murder someone”.

  78. Mike S. said

    or this one… “that the scientific method is the way to determine whether something is true or not”.

  79. F. L. A. said

    Mr.Sears, why would you believe that it is wrong to commit murder?
    Enough to consider this to be a “truth”?
    I believe that murder is commendable if not at least acceptable depending on the cercomstances and those involved.
    Consider the Bible story of David and Goliath, for example…

  80. Maz said

    Yes F.L.A, consider David, who was barely a youth, had no armour, just a sling and stone….then you have Goliath, possibly 9-11 foot tall, with a spear and a sword and an armour bearer with a shield. Mmmmmmmm.

  81. F. L. A. said

    Yes, and your point is……..?
    Could I not say,…consider the tiny mosquito, no armor, no intelligence, only a tiny serrated lance for extracting blood, and usually gets smashed by a hand for it’s hungry efforts, yet….they kill more human beings than any other wild animal in this world, through disease.

  82. Maz said

    How can you call that murder with such a match? And your example has nothing to do with murder.
    Murder is committed by humans on humans.

  83. F. L. A. said

    “How can you call that murder with such a match?”
    If “murder” is only committed by humans on humans, then, as David and Goliath were both humans, how could it NOT be an act of murder?
    The smallest child can kill the biggest man, if it can stick it’s little finger into the trigger of a gun, point, and squeeze.
    The ancient Greeks created a form of sling that was ecceadingly powerful, capable of killing horses and bulls. It was not held within the fingers as slings are commonly portrayed, but was fastened upon the end of a rod for greater throwing power.
    The point I am trying to make is that small size and a sling does not an entirely mismatched combatant make. Knowing ones weapon of choice and using it with skill is far more important than simple brute strength and fancy weaponry.

  84. Maz said

    F.L.A: Goliath was armed adequately to kill David, it outmatched David with his little sling don’t you think? He could have killed David with one throw of his spear, but God was with David and his enemy was killed. It was an act of war. The armies of Israel were facing their enemy. It was a fight between the two sides between two representatives. Even Goliath thot it a joke sending out this shepherd boy against a seasoned warrior.
    Is it murder when in a situation of war?

  85. Mike S. said

    Simply put… Murder is unjustifiable killing, between human beings. Killing and murder are two different things. I assume that you can infer the difference without having me explain it. Let’s go with the legal term.

  86. F. L. A. said

    Yes, I believe it is, Maz.
    At what point does justifiable “killing” become unjustifiable “murder”?
    Sounds like something that is too subject to personal interpretation to me.

  87. Maz said

    F.L.A: So if a soldier in the army goes out to war and has to kill his enemy to protect his country and it’s people, that is still murder to you?

  88. F. L. A. said

    Yes.

  89. Maz said

    F.L.A: So to your reckoning God would be a murderer as He instructed Israel to kill their enemies. And if someone was stoned, they were murdered?
    Is no one able to protect themselves or their families lives by causing the death of an assailent then? Wha about the 2nd World War, was that mass murder? (on both sides?)
    So ALL killing is murder……….you don’t support the death penalty either I presume.

  90. Mike S. said

    If our laws were based upon “personal interpretation”, we would be in quite a mess as a society, chaos actually, although that is exactly what our liberal friends are striving for…, personal interpretation, and they have been successful in achieving such… They call it “Choice”.

  91. Maz said

    F.L.A: Seeing as you believe in evolution and we are just a higher form of life, wouldn’t your killing animals be murder? As evolution teaches we are all related.

  92. Mike S. said

    Maz
    I believe F.L.A. has stated before that she does not believe that murder is necessarily wrong. And apparently, she does not distinguish any difference between killing and murder. Question for F.L.A., then why do we even have different words in our language if there is no difference?

  93. abc's said

    Kash

    “But then there is Truth….which has more to do with stuff that is hard to conduct experiments on. God, spirituality, ethics, philosophy, meaning of life, etc fall in that realm of beyond what scientific method can investigate. That’s where faith comes in.”

    I agree. That’s where faith steps in, but that doesn’t mean that anyone has found truth.

    Mike S.

    “How about using the SM to prove this truth claim. “It’s wrong to murder someone”.

    I assume that both you and I agree that it is wrong to kill someone. I don’t believe in the Bible, but you do. How is it that we can agree? We both reach something we call “truth” yet we use different methods. Your method cannot be the only correct way.

  94. abc's said

    Killing and murdering produce the same end. One person has taken the life of another person. The different words are used to try and justify what has been done.

    There is no absolute wrong or right in most situations. This is the grey area that I don’t believe “faith” fills in.

    Mike S.
    “If our laws were based upon “personal interpretation”, we would be in quite a mess as a society”

    That’s exactly what our laws are based on.

    The Bible clearly states “Thou shalt not kill.”

    But people squeeze out of that by saying, “well he was a really bad person” or “my own life was in danger.” or “it is in the service of my country.”
    Don’t you believe that God loves everyone and that everyone has a soul and they are worthy of being saved?

  95. Mike S. said

    “There is no absolute wrong or right in most situations.”

    Are you sure about that?…. Absolutely sure?

  96. Mike S. said

    No Abc
    Our laws are not based upon “personal interpretation”, meaning that if I think it’s ok to steal something, then it’s ok because of the way “I” interpret the law. “Societal Interpretation” maybe but not “personal”.

  97. Mike S. said

    “Don’t you believe that God loves everyone and that everyone has a soul”… Yes

    “…and they are worthy of being saved?” No

  98. Mike S. said

    Abc 93
    You missed my point. Can you prove that truth using the scientific method?

  99. F. L. A. said

    Maz, post#89, YES,it is allllllll murder, and no, I do support the Death Penalty, and gladly murder trouble makers within our domain.
    Did you misunderstand my post#79?
    As for post#91, see post#92.
    As for post#92, Perhaps it is to make people who have wimpy natures more able to accept the actions and results of murder. It is an easy way for some to distance themselves from the concept. One can hear such terms all the time in hunting and fishing.
    Instead of “butchering”, “hunting”, “slaughtering”, of “murdering”
    they use words such as “cleaning”[Wasn’t it cleaner BEFORE death?], “harvesting”[As if it’s a…crop!?], “dressing[What? Why would they apply THIS term to butchering? If anything it is more like UNdressing]” or “doing one’s duty”[Which is a proud way for modern warriors to say they murdered because someone else told them to].If it’s accidental mass murder they can call it “friendly fire”, but if intentional, there may be medals distributed, and those who are most successful at murder usually get the most, as long as it’s approved by those in charge, of course.
    Mr.Sears, also study up on why enemy warriors from different sides are given so many cute names by the opposition, instead of just referring to them as MEN, like them.

    I liked the last half of your post#94, Abc’s.

  100. Maz said

    F.L.A: ”YES,it is allllllll murder, and no, I do support the Death Penalty, and gladly murder trouble makers within our domain.”
    So is that murder wrong? Or is some murder right?
    Mmmmmmmmm.

  101. F. L. A. said

    Why, some of it is right and some of it is wrong, of course.
    And the murder of troublemakers is right[according to me], depending upon the cercomstances involved.

  102. Maz said

    F.L.A: So you really make your own decision as to whether killing/murder is right or wrong?

  103. F. L. A. said

    Depending on the cercomstances[Yes, I realize this word is misspelled, I just do not care. The dictionary’s on the other side of this room, and I would break things trying to get to it.], of course!
    I think I know where you are trying to go with this, and if you are trying to bring something like “divine law” into the discussion, then remember, my deities are different than yours. Like John,I have a God of hunting.
    So, naturally the “divine laws” that I am bound to are different than your horribly vague “Thou shalt not Kill.” which seems to have a poor history of being followed anyway.
    And SOMETIMES……..we just need to figure things out for ourselves.

  104. Maz said

    Ferox: Yes, your deities are different, they have no relevance to reality. God, Yahweh, is the true and living God, and all other gods are idols. So your idea of murder and killing would not be right according to God anyway.

    And the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’, was for those who felt they could just take a life when it pleased them. God was justified in killing the evil perpetraters of this world, it would have destroyed everything God made which originally was beautiful and perfect. He was protecting that perfect will for His children to come. The world today is evil enough, what would it have been like if God had allowed all those wicked people in Sodom and Gommorah to live, or the Cannanites that killed their own children by burning them to death.
    And the evil that was on the earth before the flood, completely and utterly depraved human beings……….once created so perfect and without sin in the beginning. Can’t you see this?

  105. F. L. A. said

    No relevance to reality?
    You mean, compared to your deranged version of reality?
    And would you like to explain why not, Mrs. my universe is only 6,000 years old and men lived with the dinosaurs and I agree it’s alright to murder children because you feel soooooooo sorry for them?

  106. Maz said

    Ferox: So I am deranged. I think this conversation should end with that kind of attitude.

  107. F. L. A. said

    I just try to tell it like it is, as you should well know by now.

  108. Maz said

    F.L.A: There is a way to tell it without being insulting.

  109. F. L. A. said

    Alright, how is this version?

    No relevance to reality?
    You mean, compared to your “unique” version of reality?
    And would you like to explain why not?

  110. John said

    Hello again, sorry it took me so long to get back to you.
    Anyway,
    Maz, about post 71, it would depend on the nature of their denial in your God and Jesus.
    If you were trying to cutely imply that I was like those I described within post 70, then you are confused about my form of “denial”. I have made it clear on many occasions that I believed in the possibility of Jesus and your deities existence, my heresy is that I also believe in MORE, with and without regards to your theological belief system. The people that I described within post 70 were, actually like you[grin].
    Like you blind denial of the Natural Sciences supplying evidence for an ancient Earth and universe, and all the evidence for evolution.And other things.
    You see, they had been exposed to evil people and actions in the world, and yet, STILL refused to acknowledge the existence of evil. For example, when a little girl was raped and murdered[she was about…seven..I think], they said that it was obviously an experience that her soul chose to go through and experience before she was born[It’s a reincarnation thing, this idea that souls go through multiple lives for the sake of learning from experiences].What lessons of any worth could a little girls soul learn from such an experience?!?
    Would any of these people, had they been there, tried to stop this crime???
    We will never know, but personally, I think that they’re full of [it rhymes with the word “hit”].
    They are provided with evidence and yet CHOOSE to not acknowledge it, While IIIIIII realize that your evidence for creationism, a young Earth and universe, history starting with your theological belief system, and your evidence that your personal theological belief system is the only true one, is…….most weak[smile, one raised eyebrow].

  111. Maz said

    Really F.L.A, what would be the point?

    John: Even the Jewish leaders of Jesus day denied Who He was, the awaited Messiah, the Son of God, and misunderstood the OT scriptures about Him being the suffering Messiah.
    Believing that there is a God and that He had a Son is not enough, you have to believe IN HIM and RECIEVE HIM into your life as your Savior, from sin, and your LORD and GOD, the ONLY ONE.
    ”You shall have no other gods before me”.
    But what else can I say, nothing will change your personal theological belief system. You keep harping on about me being a Young Earther…..something I do believe in but I believe in many things…..why not call me a Jesus Resurrection believer, or a Red Sea Parting believer, or a Noah’s Flood believer? Or just a Bible believing Christian? Anyway, what’s the point….we are going round in circles…….and my ‘personal theological belief system’ is from God Himself. I trust Him……Hallelujah!

  112. John said

    Young Earth Christian Creationists are…..special[smile].

    None of that Christian scripture is important to me, Maz.
    You should know this.

  113. Maz said

    Makes no difference…..Jesus is ALIVE! Praise God!

  114. ADB said

    Been awfully busy the last couple of weeks, so I’ve been unable to keep up with things. This is a topic of great interest to me, so I wanted to delve into this a little more. While I do believe that there is evidence for the resurrection, people can always claim that there is not enough of it. What I want to pose for discussion are several questions- 1) what exactly is meant by resurrection? 2) why did the resurrection happen? 3) how do we interpret Paul’s statements about God (or the Father) raising Jesus as compared to Jesus statements in John that he had the power to lay down his life and the power to take it back up again. Remember, I ask these for simple discussion and interpretation, not to challenge anyone’s faith.

    Best Wishes

  115. John said

    I an also curious about the possible motivation anyone has behind the exclamation Jesus made within Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34 “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

  116. John said

    Also, it’s good to hear from you once again, ADB.
    You were missed[smile].

  117. ADB said

    John,

    Good to be back. Regarding Jesus exclamation from the cross, that is a quote from Psalm 22. To me it is not surprising at all that Jesus would say that. It’s a phrase that captures the feeling of being utterly abandoned and lost. Of course Jesus was the son of God, was homoousius (of one substance with the father), but from a human standpoint he was suffering terribly, not to mention that he surely knew the greater cosmic ramifications of his suffering. Of course as a pagan you don’t believe a word of that stuff I just said, (I still hold out hope though, he!he!he!) Anyway that’s a simple explanation from a Christian perspective. I posed the questions I did because it seems that a lot of Christians in talking about resurrection, of Jesus or humanity in general, speak only of evidence for it without discussing why Jesus was raised from the dead, what that means, etc.

    Best Wishes

  118. Mike S said

    My 2 cent answer ADB… He rose to reign over all creation in victory over sin on our behalf. And to give us the power to live for Him and to enable us to participate in the redemption of the world. What an honor that is!!

  119. Mike S said

    But most of all… To show His Glory!!

  120. ADB said

    Mike,
    I too think that “victory over sin” is a large part of it. I have on my list of “want to reads” a book by Gustav Aulen called “Christus Victor” that is supposed to deal heavily with death and resurrection as defeat of evil. This is interesting to me because early in my seminary years I filled in at a little church on Easter Sunday, and as I was preparing the sermon I realized I really did not know why he was raised. I was thinking in terms of substitionary atonement and realized that if sacrificial death is all there is to the cross, then there was no need for resurrection. I still think that substitionary atonement (though it can be misused) is about the best explanation out there, but even it does not fully cover everything. I understand things better now than then, but still am a learner.

  121. John said

    Thank you.
    While you’re holding out hope[and I can appreciate that[smile]], I have a little story for you that you may enjoy.

    Dr.S.D.Gordon tells of an old Christian woman who’s age began to tell on her memory.She had once known much of the Bible by heart. Eventually only one precious bit stayed with her,”I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him that day.” By and by part of that slipped it’s hold, and she would quietly repeat “That which I have committed unto Him.” At last as she hovered at the borderland between this and the spirit world,her loved ones noticed her lips moving. They bent down to see if she needed anything. She was repeating over and over again to herself the one word of the text, “Him-Him-Him-”
    She had lost the whole Bible but one word.But she had the whole Bible in that word.

    How did you like THAT?
    And now I must be off to bed.I have a big Pagan holiday tomorrow and there is much to do. Beside me a Huntsman Spider just crawled up over the edge of the desk.It has what looks like a five inch leg span. Interesting.
    I have heard that “normal” people are afraid of spiders this size. I guess I’ve become desensitized.

  122. Maz said

    I’d scream so you could hear me over in Florida and run as many miles!!

  123. Mike S said

    Great one John. That’s probably why we sing Hims huh? Sweet spider dreams and snake snuggles!! 🙂

  124. wes said

    John; I liked that story too. While I do not wish to encourage your beliefs; please, enjoy your thanks giving.

  125. Barney said

    For interesting counterpoints to the fundamentalist point of view one encounters here re: Jesus and the supernatural one can go here:

    http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/

    I like the Biblical Criticism and History threads and the Evolution/Creation threads.

    Have fun.

    Barney

  126. F. L. A. said

    Thank you for the site, Barney.

  127. Barney said

    You’re welcome, F.L.A.

    Happy equinox, everyone! Have you tried balancing an egg on it’s end today?

  128. John said

    And a Happy Autumnal Equinox to you too Barney.

  129. Stanley said

    Happy Monday Night Football with Brett Favre!

  130. Barney said

    Here’s an interesting conversation going on in an alternate universe about pagan influences on Christianity.

    http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=254024

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