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How has same sex marriage impacted the Presidential Debate?

Posted by truthtalklive on August 22, 2008

On todays show our guest host is Dr. Michael Brown. Dr. Brown will be touching on one of the hot button issues in society and one of the biggest dividing lines between the candidates. Also Dr. Brown is the host of the line of fire which airs monday-friday at 7pm-8pm. For more information please visit http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/02/BAS111I682.DTL & http://lineoffireradio.wordpress.com/. As always thanks for listening!

After the show check out he podcast at www.wtru.com


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16 Responses to “How has same sex marriage impacted the Presidential Debate?”

  1. Barney said

    So marriage is one man and one woman. Where does that leave Mccain? He cast one wife aside and married his mistress. So does that make it one man and one woman at a time? But we don’t pick on Republicans, do we?

  2. Barney,

    Did you listen to the broadcast? We spoke about McCain’s divorce, about the failures of Christian heterosexual marriages, about how this is not a Republican or Democratic issue but rather an issue of morality.

    The thing I find fascinating is that when I take issue with the stance of a black man, I’m racist. When I take issue with the stance of a Democrat, I’m doing it out of political allegiance to the Republican party. Yet when I stand with a black man, that counts for nothing, and when I point out that there were less divorces on the Democrat side than the Republican side of this campaign, that counts for nothing.

    Shall we return to the issue at hand, though? Same-sex relationships are 100% contrary to everything that God has established in terms of male-female order, and they are undermining to the family and therefore should be a major issue in these elections.

  3. Maz said

    I would also add that not only do they undermine the family…..they can’t produce one of their own….unless they adopt children which were produced from a heterosexual union. Doesn’t this show them that it is not normal human behavior.

  4. Barney said

    Sorry, I must have missed that part. If you listened to this program as much as I do you would know why I said that. The TTL show is anything but politically impartial.

  5. Maz said

    We all tend to be partial or possess a bias for or against something, whether it is political or religious, as you probably have Barney.

  6. Kash said

    I thought the last caller was the most interesting of the show. He questioned the host’s reasoning when the host asserted that voting for someone in favor of homosexual marriage was the moral equivalent for voting for someone in favor of slavery. The irony of that comparison is that 150 years ago, people used the Bible to defend slavery by taking a few passages and interpreting them in their own way. Now people defend discrimnation against homosexuals with two or three passages, ignoring the entire context of the Bible. So yes, I see a similarity to discrimination against blacks and discrimination against homosexuals, but not the way the host meant!

    The religious right should be very careful aligning themselves with McCain as the moral candidate, and Obama as the opposite. They continue to focus solely on abortion and homosexuality, as if those were the only things a Christian needs to care about or do anything about. It demeans the message of Jesus and does nothing to bring about the kingdom when those politicians then act in inevitably non-Christ like ways. Remember, Jesus turned down the offer of worldly power when it was offered by the devil. To stop abortions, I think Jesus would have been more likely to volunteer at crisis pregnancy centers and spend time teaching children abstinence rather than trying to manipulate politics. And Jesus never spoke of homosexuality directly, but he did condemn divorce unequivocally. Should I be banned from attending church because my husband left me five years into our marriage? How can I judge a practicing homosexual when, for the rest of my life, even though I am now happily re-married, I am an adulterer according to Matthew 19:9? Thank God that in His mercy and Grace I can still be saved through Jesus Christ, and if I can, then so can homosexuals.

    The breakdown of the american family is a tragedy with terrible consequences for our nation and ourselves, and we waste our time and energy bickering about 2% of the population who are homosexuals instead of supporting the institutions that would strengthen marriage like education, health care, and family-friendly community programs.

    Most married couples fight about money, so it seems to me that the health of the economy might be the most important thing to worry about right now if you are worried about marriage. And I think heterosexual couples’ behavior has a much more detrimental effect on the image of marriage in this country than homosexuals: look at all of the casual hook ups and couples living together out of wedlock on our favorite TV shows. If you watch any of those anti-family shows regularly, you are showing your children your lack of respect for the institution of marriage than “Adam and Steve” co-habitating down the street. Maybe if we strengthen the image of heterosexual marriage, our children won’t be so quick to dismiss it as unimportant and irrelevant to their lives. Attacking homosexuals as the cause of the breakdown of the family just makes it seem more irrelevant.

    We Christians need to be more humble in our use of the Bible to brow beat people into our way of political thinking. Again, don’t let the movie “Amazing Grace” make you forget that in the American South the Bible was used to defend the institution of slavery.

  7. Kash,

    Thanks for your comment. A few quick observations:

    1) I am raising issues about morality rather than endorsing a particular candidate. Obviously, I share more of McCain’s views than Obama’s, but I constantly emphasize that my hope is in God’s kingdom rather than the political system.

    2) As you probably know, both sides of the slavery debate used the Scriptures, just as both side of the homosexual issue try to use the Scriptures. It has been soundly demonstrated, however, that those using the Bible to support the inhuman horrors of the slave trade were totally off base, just as those trying to use the Scriptures to support homosexual unions are totally off base. I have an entire lecture devoted to this subject if you’re interested. (If so, go to our ministry website at http://www.revolutionnow.org and ask Eric for details.) I deeply challenge your view that only a few passages in the Bible speak against homosexual practice and, at that, do so at the expense of the larger context of the Bible.

    3) As I stated on the air and as I have written and stated for years, the biggest issue is the break down of natural marriages and families (meaning, obviously, heterosexual marriages and families), and that has been the focus of my attention for decades, particularly, within the Church. The problem is that gay activists have an agenda that has made its way into the schools, into the media, into the government, into the courts, and now into the families. That’s why the agenda must be soundly rejected, while we continue to show Christian love to LGBT individuals, offering them the same mercy and forgiveness and transformation that we too received through the gospel.

    4) The bottom line is this: When someone is already battling cancer, you don’t welcome another disease into their body without resisting it. We already have the cancer of no-fault divorce; we already have the cancer of rampant pornography, even in the church; we already have the cancer of fatherless homes; etc. Why now add another, terribly unhealthy element to the mix in the form of same-sex marriages?

    And now a question for you: Would you be kind enough to point out to me when and where I have “used the Bible to brow beat people” into a particular “way of political thinking?” That would be helpful for me to hear. The folks I work with at FIRE Church and FIRE School of Ministry are equally active in poor commmunities as they are in righteousness issues, reaching out to people at abortion clinics as well as helping women through pregnancy, child-bearing, and beyond. Why should it be either or?

    In short, I totally concur with you in terms of the state of heterosexual marriages today, but I would encourage you to recognize that gay activism looms as an equally critical threat in our day, one that also threatens to impinge on our very religious liberties.

  8. Kash said

    Dr. Brown,
    Thank you for your reply. I did not mean you specifically when I spoke of using the Bible to brow beat people into a way of political thinking, I think more of some of the other more confrontational radio shows and some of the people in my community. I apologize for painting with a broad brush. I will definitely check out your web site and learn more about your particular work.

    I also dislike much of the agenda of gay activism. As with all activism, they go too far. I am not in favor of gay marriage, although I recognize that if two people are in a long term committed relationship they should have some legal rights. That, to me, is completely separate from the spiritual condition of marriage. Whether or not God blesses a union has nothing to do with whether or not the state does. I also think that gay activists do themselves a disservice pressing too hard for gay marriage in the church, as it makes people fear that they will have to conduct the ceremonies in their churches or be accused of violating civil rights. If a certain congregation believes homosexuality to be a sin, they should not be forced to marry them.

    I agree with you on many fronts. I simply think the issue of homosexual marriage has, for many Christians, over shadowed other issues in the public venue. Regardless of political leanings, the fact is that Christianity in this country is viewed by many outside the church solely as people who are intolerant of homosexuals. It makes it hard for us to be witnesses as to the love and saving grace of Jesus when the most vocal among us are seen (rightly or wrongly) as obsessed only with gays and abortions and unconcerned with issues that affect far more of the country, such as poverty, breakdown of the family, sexual immorality of the heterosexual kind, etc. I totally understand why Christians are fearful of homosexual activists, but we can not let our fear make us build them into more of a danger than they actually are. “There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” They are sinners, just like us, trying to find their way in a fallen world. But I am not really trying to convince you of anything except that I personally think Christians in the public realm have made the homosexual thing into too big of an issue and it has become divisive, hurting rather than helping our witness.

    Ultimately, I am just grateful that I am not shunned from church because I have been divorced. Homosexuals must feel welcome in church because how else with they know they love of Jesus? And when the Holy Spirit convicts them, it is between them and God how their lives must change.


  9. Kash,

    Thanks for your post. I appreciate it!

    As for being fearful of gay activists, I agree with you: There is nothing productive in being fear-based. But we must be wise! Jesus tells us to watch and pray, and things are unfolding before our eyes that must call us to godly action and vigilance, otherwise we’ll have a lot of explaining to do to the Lord and the next generation.

    As for homosexuals being welcomed in the church, if they recognize that same-sex activity is sinful and seek to live holy, celibate lives, we should reach out to them and help them in their struggles with longsuffering and compassion, and if they actually develop heterosexual desires, wonderful. If not, we stand with them in holiness. But if they seek to be self-affirming gays, believing that same-sex attraction is fine and that same-sex relationships are fine, we must call them to repentance just as we call other sinners to repentance.

    Dr. Brown

  10. Mike S. said

    Dr. Brown
    I enjoy your show and agree with most of what you say. However, I must beg to differ with you here. “As for homosexuals being welcomed in the church, if they recognize that same-sex activity is sinful and seek to live holy, celibate lives, we should reach out to them and help them in their struggles with longsuffering and compassion” I sure am glad that Jesus didn’t say “IF” you turn from your sin, then I will reach out to you!! Romans 5:8. Now, however, if they “call themselves a “Christian”, We must use the Biblical formula for discipline, and they certainly would not qualify to be identified as part of “the body”. Yet, “reaching out to them and helping them in their struggles with longsuffering and compassion” should NEVER be conditional.

  11. Ben Maulis said

    Jesus said he came not for the righteous but to call sinners to repentance and, “unless you repent, you will likewise perish.” He never had communion with sinners that were not in repentance (except for Judas). He preached, repent, repent and repent (Matt. 3:2, 4:17, Mark 1:15). He commanded us to preach and his disciples went out and preached that men should repent (Mark 6:12), repent and be baptized (Acts 2:38), repent and be converted (Acts 3:19), commanding all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), and that they should repent and turn to God (Acts 26:20).

    Therefore we ought to seek a willingness to repent. “As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?” Amen, amen, the Lord is not willing that any perish, but that all come to repentance.

    Some sinners claim the church “hates” them, but it is the unrepentant sinner, not God or the disciples of Christ, who have a vile hatred. “Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” There is only one explanation why people are not willing to repent: because they love unrighteousness more than righteousness.

  12. Mike S. said

    I am not saying that we should not preach repentance! I am saying that our reaching out to them and loving them through their struggles should not be conditional as Dr. Brown appeared to be stating. Jesus did not require people to repent before He healed, helped and fellowshipped with them. It was through the healing, helping, and fellowship that they came to understand the love of God and thus had a desire to repent. True Christianity is NOT repentance out of fear, but out of a love response to the love received!!

  13. Mike S. said

    How would you like your children to respond to you? Would you rather they behave because they are afraid of the punishment, or because they love you so much they don’t want to disappoint you? Which one is closer to true love? True Christianity = True Love

  14. ADB said

    My own opinion on this. This is certainly the most divisive issue in the church today, but it probably should not be so. There are folks all around who deny any bodily resurrection, who deny any authority to scripture, whose view of Jesus is as simply as a good example to follow; yet we focus on this particular sin. We need to avoid making this the only sin that is ever emphasized in the church- adultery, drunkenness, lying, stealing, and gluttony too are all sinful acts as well. This being said, it is clear that homosexual conduct is unnatural. Clearly, one who is an avowed homosexual should not be in leadership in the church. Where we must be careful is in excluding them from the church. I think that we should be glad when lots of known heathens and wretches fill our pews. If they are they will hear the gospel and have the opportunity to respond in faith. Mike made a good point where he said that we should never set repentance as a prerequisite for coming to Christ. Actually as I understand it, Christ comes to us, and our response to that encounter is repentance. Some have said that Jesus accepts us as we are but refuses to leave us that way. Another complicating factor is that practicing homosexuals mostly are convinced that there’s nothing wrong with what they are doing and they try very hard to convince others that it there’s is simply a different lifestyle. There’s not a vocal lobby out there trying to persuade church and society that adultery, theft, etc. are acceptable moral choices/lifestyles. Anyway that’s my .02$ worth.

    The curmudgeonly pastor

  15. Mike S. said

    Amen to that ADB. Good post. Although I think there is a strong lobby for coveting to acceptable. 🙂

  16. Mike S.,

    I just spotted your comments and questions. My point was this (as our friend ABD rightly noted): We reach out to everyone with the gospel. Of course. But when someone claims to be right with God while actively practicing sin, telling us that we are misinterpreting the Bible at that, our posture towards them is different than it is with the person who says, “I know this lifestyle is wrong and I need help.” That same policy would apply to any sin or “orientation.” Does that make sense?

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