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Is there a Such thing as a “liberal Christian”?

Posted by truthtalklive on July 30, 2008

On tadays show Stu open the mics and the phone for you. He want’s to know what you think about Christians being liberal. Is it possible well find out today at 5 EST. Click here to check this link out http://www.liberalgrace.com/. To get in on the lines today call 1-866-34-truth (87884). As always thanks for listening!

 

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43 Responses to “Is there a Such thing as a “liberal Christian”?”

  1. jAsOn said

    Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by “liberal” doesn’t it

    Liberal relative to what? If you mean theological liberal, then no, check out Machen’s book, “Christianity & Liberalism”, but if you mean, politically liberal, then the very broad answer is, YES. I suppose you could ask the question, “Is there such a thing as a conservative Christian?”.

    Maybe it would be helpful to make a distinction between “christian” and believer. According to George Barn, everybody and his brother in America is a “christian”, but according to the Bible, you are a Christian if you believe that you’re a sinner (repent) in need of a Savior, and that Jesus Christ lived the perfect life and died as the perfect sacrifice for your sins so as to give you His righteousness in place of your wickedness. My guess is that there are many in that category (those who believe the gospel) who someone considers to be politically liberal according to American standards.

  2. jAsOn said

    Oops, George Barna

  3. Ben Maulis said

    “Liberal” is an awfully general term, and by some people’s definitions so is “Christian.” The Pharisees thought Jesus was socially liberal, but he made it abundantly clear that he was as far from morally liberal as one could be. Christianity is by definition apolitical. The term by any respectable definition affirms the sovereign lordship of Jesus Christ. There are no political issues for the Christian. He belongs to the kingdom of God and God’s reign is absolute.

  4. ADB said

    Paul gives one good definition of Christian in Romans- those who “confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in their heart that God has raised him from the dead.” This could also mean that people of many ideological stripes could be defined as Christian.

    Best Wishes,
    The curmdudgeonly pastor 🙂

  5. bookert said

    “Stu opens the mic for you”? The show is half over and so far Stu has done 98% of the talking.

    I think we all need to take a step back and consider the possibility that God is angry with America for electing – then re-electing George Bush. We’ve gone into serious decline since Bush took office, and I believe the Almighty is holding us accountable for it. I also fear that electing McCain will only invite more of His wrath.

  6. Joy said

    Yes, I would say it is possible to be a liberal Christian.

    I would disagree with them both thologically and politically (as one flawed stance requires the other) but I believe they exist.

    Most are young and frustrated with mainstream Christianity. They see us a false, fat and oblivious. And they’re not far wrong.

    It is true that mainstream Christianity has abdicated several of its key descripters to the other side. We should be the ones talking about diversity and inclusiveness. Not that we agree with prostitution or a homosexual life style…but it should be us out there loving their socks off! It should be us seeking out those that are diffrent. It should be us paying in life’s blood to help mankind out.

    They’ll know us by our love…not our minivan with the fish on the back.

    My boyfriend is fond of saying that if you’re young and liberal you’re big hearted, if you’re old and liberal you’re dumb. Most Christians will eventually come to a conservative stand point if they are truely looking and learning.

    Just give them time. We need more of those young big hearted world changers on our side, don’t attempt to restrict them from the kingdom piecemeal!

  7. Barney said

    What Stu means to ask is can a fundamentalist Christian be a political liberal (Democrat) in the USA.

    I have some news for you, Stu, John McCain isn’t your kind of Christian, either.

    Once again we notice that Stu’s Christianity seems to be as much about politics as anything.

  8. bookert said

    Still listening. Stu is pounding a woman about Obama’s views on abortion, wanting to know how he can call himself a Christian. How about this? There is no such thing as a smart bomb (look it up). Smart bombs cause collateral damage, lots of collateral damage, same as any bomb. Also consider – Bagdad enjoyed a baby boom just before American invaded them. Question – how many babies did George Bush kill in Bagdad. And how can he call himself a Christian?

  9. Stephen said

    I do not believe that there is such thing as a “liberal”, “conservative”, “moderate”, “short” or “tall” Christian. I think that these are just labels that men have placed on Christianity in order to justify their views. But at the end of the day, either you are a 100% Christian or you are not. You believe all of the Word, or you don’t. There is no in between. For example if the Bible states that “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman It is an abomination.” (Lev. 18:22), which is against homosexuality, then there is no Biblical support of promoting same sex marriages. Period. There is no gray area, when it comes to the Word. The Authority of the Word and the Giver of the Word cannot be denied. But man, who has dominion in the earth, seems to forget the it is God’s will that whatever is happening in heaven happens in the earth (Matt 6:10).

  10. Jeff42 said

    Jason,

    Good word. The only thing I would add to your definition is to add belief that Jesus was raised from the dead (Romans 10:9). Also, (and I know you believe this)when we say “belief” we mean more than simple mental assent. The devil believes all that you and I listed, but he is certainly not a Christian. What we mean by belief is that the person trusts in Christ alone for their salvation (His person and work on their behalf).

    I would also like to add a word about sanctification. Everyone that is justified by faith in Jesus Christ is also sanctified by God . Here I am talking about the doctrine of progressive sanctification. The moment the Lord saves a person he begins transforming them into the image of Christ. He begins making them what they are in Christ – holy. John said in 1 John that everyone who is saved practices righteousness. So, if we are truly a Christian we should see the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

    1 John 2:3-6 3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

    The true believer walks like Christ, not perfectly, but this is characteristic of his new life. We are not saved by good works, but we are saved unto good works (see Eph. 2:8-10). As the old hymn says, those who are truly saved will “trust and obey.”

  11. Joe said

    there can be no such thing as a liberal christian. i’ve listen to the likes of jimmy carter,barrak obama. these people don’t really say what God’s word is saying. the liberal as we know changes different views that will fit his left wing agenda, and they use the word of God the same way. as a follow of Jesus Christ myself,i feel what these so called christian politicans that changes the word of God to please themselves and others are very arrogant people who have a form of godliness but are dening the power there of. personally if i have to try and change the word of God just to please people God’s word say that will be my reward, please man but not Him. we must go these people out and hold theme accountable. opaha winfrey,john mccain, obama ect. i have people in my church who is supporting barrak obama, what are they thinking. as a black american,some black people need to get their stupid heads out of the sandbox and stop backing a canidate simply because he’s black. i’m a child of God first,because i’m eteral. amen and amen. peace out.

  12. Rob said

    By Jesus own words, Man cannot serve two masters he will love one and hate the other. So we all choose, God or Money! By this scripture, I must conclude there are not very many true Christians among leaders in Washington from either party. Saying you are For Life, Against Abortion, for True Marriage (Man and Woman), but doing nothing is the same as saying you are a Christian and living your life for your own pleasure. Likewise you cannot be compassionate and say you are for the “little guy” and ignore the scripture regarding how God views sin.

    In my mind, both sides of the political spectrum have it half wrong.

  13. John said

    Being a Liberal ain’t what it used to be…

  14. bookert said

    As for the accusation that Obama “picks and chooses” his Christian doctrines – we ALL pick and choose. There’s no other way to read the Bible. Read the following pairings, then “pick and choose” the one that best aligns with your belief system. Then ask yourself, Where did that belief come from?

    1. God is satisfied with his works
    Gen 1:31
    God is dissatisfied with his works.
    Gen 6:6
    2. God dwells in chosen temples
    2 Chron 7:12,16
    God dwells not in temples
    Acts 7:48
    3. God dwells in light
    Tim 6:16
    God dwells in darkness
    1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
    4. God is seen and heard
    Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
    Ex 24:9-11
    God is invisible and cannot be heard
    John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
    5. God is tired and rests
    Ex 31:17
    God is never tired and never rests
    Is 40:28
    6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
    Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
    God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
    things
    Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
    7. God knows the hearts of men
    Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
    God tries men to find out what is in their heart
    Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
    8. God is all powerful
    Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
    God is not all powerful
    Judg 1:19
    9. God is unchangeable
    James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
    God is changeable
    Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
    Ex 33:1,3,17,14
    10. God is just and impartial
    Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
    God is unjust and partial
    Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
    11. God is the author of evil
    Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
    God is not the author of evil
    1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
    12. God gives freely to those who ask
    James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
    God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
    them
    John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
    13. God is to be found by those who seek him
    Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
    God is not to be found by those who seek him
    Prov 1:28
    14. God is warlike
    Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
    God is peaceful
    Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
    15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
    Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
    God is kind, merciful, and good
    James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
    1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
    16. God’s anger is fierce and endures long
    Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
    God’s anger is slow and endures but for a minute
    Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
    17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
    sacrifices ,and holy days
    Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
    God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
    sacrifices, and holy days.
    Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
    18. God accepts human sacrifices
    2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
    God forbids human sacrifice
    Deut 12:30,31
    19. God tempts men
    Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
    God tempts no man
    James 1:13
    20. God cannot lie
    Heb 6:18
    God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
    2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
    21. Because of man’s wickedness God destroys him
    Gen 6:5,7
    Because of man’s wickedness God will not destroy him
    Gen 8:21
    22. God’s attributes are revealed in his works.
    Rom 1:20
    God’s attributes cannot be discovered
    Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
    23. There is but one God
    Deut 6:4
    There is a plurality of gods
    Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

  15. ADB said

    Jeff42,
    Excellent points, and to a certain extent you took the words out of my mouth. If we truly believe that we are justified by faith as a free gift, then that would also mean that one who has true faith can be justified even though he does not have a correct understanding of the doctrine of justification by faith. You are exactly right about faith being more than a mental assent to the correct doctrines. Paul referred to Abraham in Romans 4 because Abraham trusted God enough to go when called, even though God had not even told him where he was being led. Faith is trusting Jesus with our future and not ourselves, and living like we actually do trust him with our future. Anyway, I’ll shut up now before I end up preaching my sermon from last Sunday.

    Best Wishes

  16. F. L. A. said

    That last post of yours was great Bookert. It is good to hear from you again.

  17. Jeff42 said

    I too though Bookert’s post was interesting. As I begin to dig into it, I found that it was obvious that whoever put it together (I assume it was a cut and paste job.) was not a very thorough student of the Bible. The list reveals a lack of understanding of some of the basic principles of hermeneutics like scripture interpreting scripture, progressive revelation, context, etc. For example, the first supposed contradiction fails to take notice that Gen. 1:31 occurs before man’s fall into sin, and Gen. 6:6 occurs after man’s fall. I obviously am not going to bore everyone by commenting on every single item, so I will comment on only one more for purposes of illustration. The last contrast listed betrays a misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity. This does not mean that we worship three Gods, but that God is one in essence and three in person. One of the Scriptures listed is Genesis 18:1-3. If you will read that passage more carefully in context you will find that God appeared to Abraham in the form of a man (theophany), accompanied by two angels who also appeared in the form of men. In Genesis 19:1 you see the two angels coming into Sodom. You know the rest of the story. I’m not trying to start a long debate on this, but I did want to at least respond to that list.

  18. Boris said

    Bookert,
    Interestingly fundamentalists can look right at Bible verses that clearly contradict each other and claim that they really don’t somehow as the above poster’s extremely feeble attempt at this illustrates perfectly. The usual response is that all apparent Bible contradictions have been reconciled somewhere. Or can be by someone. We never get to find out who reconciled them or in what exact piece of literature they have been reconciled in and if we ask for specifics we’ll just get more vagaries.

    Below is a list of Bible verses that prove beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is a false messiah. I challenge any Christian to meticulously go through and reconcile each of the verses that prove Jesus is a false messiah. Don’t tell me it can be done unless you’re prepared to do it yourself.

    According to Jesus’ admissions, as well as the Bible’s prophecies, Jesus of Nazareth could not have been the Messiah. This of course, would invalidate Christianity as we know it. The compilation presented here shall be split in three sections. The first shall be the biblical prophecies that were made in order to identify the messiah, which Jesus does not fulfill. The second shall be the prophecies that Christians use to say that Jesus was the Messiah, yet they clearly fail. The third set shall be the prophecies and statements Jesus made yet they are false and have never came true.

    Prophecies to Identify the Messiah, Which Jesus Does Not Fulfill:

    1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means “God with us.” Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.

    2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

    3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.

    Prophecies Christians Use to Verify Jesus as the Messiah, Yet Clearly Fail:

    4) The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule “from sea to sea”. Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

    5) Matthew (Matthew 2:17-18) quotes Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:15), claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod’s alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (Jeremiah 31:16-17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod’s massacre.

    6) John 19:33 says that during Jesus’ crucifixion, the soldiers didn’t break his legs because he was already dead. Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: “Not a bone of him shall be broken.” But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12 & Psalm 34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse Psalm 34:19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person.

    7) “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.” Hosea 11:1. Matthew (Matthew 2:15) claims that the flight of Jesus’ family to Egypt is a fulfillment of this verse. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all. It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse (“Out of Egypt I have called my son”).

    8) “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Micah 5:2 The gospel of Matthew (Matthew 2:5-6) claims that Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem fulfills this prophecy. But this is unlikely for two reasons.

    A) “Bethlehem Ephratah” in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb’s second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chronicles 2:18, 2:50-52 & 4:4).

    B) The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did. It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: “And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah” rather than “Bethlehem Ephratah” as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make this verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.

    Statements Jesus Made Which Are False:

    9) Jesus in John 14:12 & Mark 16:17-18 said: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me, the works that I do shall he also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.” This implies that Jesus’ true followers should be able to routinely perform the following tricks: 1) cast out devils, 2) speak in tongues, 3) take up serpents, 4) drink poisons without harm, and 5) cure the sick by touching them and MANY other of Jesus’ “works”. Curiously I have yet to see a Christian that can do any of the above on demand.

    10) In John 14:13-14 Jesus stated: “And whatsoever ye ask in my name I do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” In reality, millions of people have made millions of requests in Jesus’ name and failed to receive satisfaction. This promise or prophecy has failed completely.

    11) Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection (1 Corinthian 15:14-17). Yet Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights. Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only one and a half days, so he could not have been the messiah by his own and Paul’s admission.

    12) Jesus’ prophecy in John 13:38 (“The cock shall not crow, till thou [Peter] hast denied me three times”) is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the cock crowed after the first denial, not the third.

    13) In Mark 10:19 Jesus said: “Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honor thy father and mother.” Jesus needs to re-read the Ten Commandments. There is no Old Testament commandment against defrauding. The only relevant statement about defrauding is in Leviticus 19:13 , which says : “Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor.” This is an OT law, but is not listed with the Ten Commandments. Surely, if Jesus was god incarnate he would know the commandments.

    14) “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13). If Jesus is in heaven, how can he be down on earth speaking? Moreover, according to 2 Kings 2:11 (“and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven”) Jesus was not the only person to ascend into heaven, nor was he the first. Elijah preceded him and apparently Enoch did also (“And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him”–Genesis 5:24).

    15) In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” This obviously has to be false, for Jesus was supposed to lay dead in the tomb for three days following his crucifixion.

    1 6) Jesus says : “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy” (Matthew 5:43). This statement does not exist in the OT either. In fact, Proverbs 24:17 says, “Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth…”

    17) Jesus is reported to say: “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it” (Luke 16:16). Certainly every man is not pressing to enter the kingdom of God. The very fact that I am an atheist (one third of the world’s population does not believe in a god) proves this verse to be false.

    18) “Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?” (Matthew 12:5) Nowhere does the OT state that the priests in the temple profaned the Sabbath and were considered blameless.

    19) “Yea; have ye never read, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise'” (Matthew 21:16). Jesus is quoting Psalm 8:2, which says, “Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies…”. “Perfect praise” has little to do with “ordaining strength because of thine enemies.” Another misquotation!

    20) “But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him” (Mark 9:13). There are no prophecies in the OT of things that were to happen to Elijah.

    Jesus, in all his “God incarnate” wisdom, contradicts himself:

    21) Jesus consistently contradicts himself concerning his Godly status. “I and my father are one.” (John 14:28) Also see Philippians 2:5-6 Those verses lead us to believe that he is a part of the trinity and equal to his father being a manifestation of him. Yet, Jesus also made many statements that deny he is the perfect men, much less God incarnate. Take the following for example: “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God” (Matthew 19:17). “My father if greater then I.” (John 14:28) Also see Matthew 24:26 Clearly, Jesus is denouncing the possibility of him being the Messiah in those three verses.

    22) Jesus said, “whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire” (Matthew 5:22). Yet, he himself did so repeatedly, as Matthew 23:17-19 and Luke 11:40 & 12:20 show. Clearly Jesus should be in danger of hell too?

    23) Does Jesus support peace, or war? Matthew 5:39 “Resist not evil, but whoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.” Also note Matthew 6:38-42 & 26:52 where Jesus teaches non-resistance, Non-violence. Now read (Luke 22:36-37) Where Jesus commands people to take arms for a coming conflict. (John 2:15) Jesus uses a whip to physically drive people out of the temple.

    24) Matthew 15:24 Jesus said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of lsrael,”. This would of course mean that he is here only to save the Jews. The scriptures repeatedly back up this notion that Christ is savior to the Jews and not the gentiles (see Romans 16:17, Revelations 14:3-4 & John 10). The contradiction lies in what Jesus later tells his followers: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations” (Matthew 28:19).

    25) Can we hate our kindred? Luke 14:26 Jesus says “If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brother, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he can not be my disciple.” John 3:15 “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer.” Also see Ephesians 6:22, 5:25, & Matthew 15:4

    26) Even many of the staunchest defenders of Jesus admit that his comment in Matthew 10:34 (“I came not to send peace but a sword”) contradicts verses such as Matthew 26:52 (“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword”).

    27) Deuteronomy 24:1 & 21:10-14 all say that divorce is allowed for the simple reason if a “man no longer delighteth in his wife”. Yet Jesus comes along and breaks his father’s law by saying in Matthew 5:32 that adultery is the only way one can be divorced.

    28) In Mark 8:35 Jesus said: “…but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s the same shall save it.” How could Jesus have said this when there was no gospel when he lived? The gospel did not appear until after his death.

    29) Matthew 6:13 Jesus recites a revised prayer and states, “Don’t bring us into temptation.” God is the cause of everything, even Satan. God has been leading people into temptation since the Garden of Eden. Otherwise, the trees of life and knowledge would have never been there.

    30) Matthew 12:1-8 Jesus thinks it’s okay to break his father’s laws, by breaking the Sabbath day. He states that he is basically exempt for such fiascoes and that he is Master of the Sabbath.

    31) John 3:17 Jesus contradicts himself when he says, “God didn’t send his son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.” Jesus seems to forget his own stories.

    32) James 4:3 If your prayers are not answered, it’s your own damned fault. This is in direct contradiction to where Jesus says “seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be known to you”.

    33) “If Jesus bears witness of himself his witness is true” John 8:14, “If I bear witness of myself it is not true.” John 5:31

    34) “I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (Matthew 28:20), versus “For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always” (Matthew 26:11 , Mark 14:7, John 12:8) and “Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am thither ye cannot come” (John 7:34). Is this the kind of friend one can rely on?

    35) “And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her” (Mark 10:11 & Luke 6:18), versus “And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery” (Matthew 19:9). In the book of Matthew, Jesus said a man could put away his wife if one factor– fornication–is involved. In Mark and Luke he allowed no exceptions.

    36) Jesus is quoted: “Judge not, and ye shall be not judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven” (Luke 6:37 & Matthew 7:1), versus “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24). Jesus stated men are not to judge but, then, allowed it under certain conditions. As in the case of divorce, he can’t seem to formulate a consistent policy.

    37) “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46, (also note the time before crucifixion where Jesus prays for the “cup to passeth over me”) versus “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, for this purpose I have come to this hour” (John 12:27 RSV). Jesus can’t seem to decide whether or not he wants to die. One moment he is willing; the next he isn’t.

    38) In Luke 23:30 (“Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, fall on us, and to the hills, cover us”) Jesus quoted Hosea 10:8 (“…and they shall say to the mountains, cover us; and to the hills, fall on us”). And, like Paul, he often quoted inaccurately. In this instance, he confused mountains with hills.

    39) “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they know him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist” (Matthew 17:11-13). John the Baptist was beheaded, but Jesus was not. And what did John the Baptist restore? Nothing!

    40) We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18 & 36) yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matthew 19:16-18 (saving by works)-if he wanted eternal life.

    41) In Luke 12:4 Jesus told his followers to “Be not afraid of them that kill the body.” But Matthew 12:14-16, John 7:1, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54, & Mark 1:45 show that Jesus consistently feared death. Jesus went out of his way to hide, run, and attempt escape from the Roman and Jewish authorities.

    42) Matthew 5:28 says to sin in “your heart” is considered a sin in itself. The messiah is supposed to be God incarnate, not able to sin, yet in Matthew 4:5 & Luke 4:5-9, Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert, which is sinning in his heart. Jesus also took upon all the sins of the world during his crucifixion, so how can it be said that “Jesus was the perfect man without sin”? This would lead one to believe he was not the Messiah.

    43) Jesus told us to “Love your enemies; bless them that curse you,” but ignored his own advice by repeatedly denouncing his opposition. Matthew 23:17 (“Ye fools and blind”), Matthew 12:34 (“0 generation of vipers”), and Matthew 23:27 (“. . . hypocrites . . . ye are like unto whited sepulchres. . .”) are excellent examples of hypocrisy.

    44) Did the people of Jesus’ generation see any signs? (Matthew 12:38-40) Jesus announced that no signs would be given to that generation except the Resurrection itself. (Mark 8:12-13) Jesus announced that no signs would be given to that generation. (Mark 16:20) They went out preaching, and the Lord confirmed the word through accompanying signs. (John 20:30) Jesus provided many wonders and signs. (Acts 2:22) Jesus provided many wonders and signs. (Acts 5:12 & 8:13) many signs and wonders were done through the apostles.

    45) Jesus commands the disciples to go into Galilee immediately after the resurrection. Matthew 28:10 Jesus commands the disciples to “tarry in Jerusalem” immediately after the resurrection.

    46) Matthew 28:18 & John 3:35 both tell that Jesus said he could do anything. Yet Mark 6:5 says Jesus was not all powerful.

    47) Jesus says in Luke 2:13-14 that he came to bring peace on earth. Matthew 10:34 Jesus back peddles and says he did not come to bring peace on earth.

    48) Did Christ receive testimony from man? “Ye sent unto John and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man.” John 5:33-34 “And ye shall also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.” John 15:27

    49) Christ laid down his life for his friends. John 15:13 & 10:11 Christ laid down his life for his enemies. Romans 5:10

    50) Deuteronomy 23:2 says that bastards can not attend church unto the tenth generation. If Jesus was spawned by Mary and Jehovah as the Bible claims then he is technically a bastard and should not be the leader of the church.

  19. Jabez Hart said

    Without taking another legal page, for a long list of rebuttal, let it be said that all comments above ignore other well defined and written qualifications, contexts, testimonies, history as to the time of the Visitation and redemptive prophecy, the Messiah’s fulfilled intention to send the Holy Spirit for enablement to be His living witnesses in diverse conditions (which they did at great personal cost), more recent English passage translations of Greek, Hebrew, the anointing of the Church in Acts to go into all the World, and the continuous affirmation of a living Ecclesia: present in most cultures on the earth, among most tribes, lanugages, and nations, for eons. Why would James, Peter, John, Paul, and many others–who were once skeptics, confused, afraid, or oppositional to Yeshua–become His martyrs and standard bearers, at the cost of their own lives, if the message and messenger were so errant? What is truth was asked of the Roman governor? Once led to slaughter, Yeshua was essentially silent as to His defense, or intention, until the Cross. Taking the time to research the tough questions and erroneous questions the writer above raises adds dissipation to their substance. What is truth, integrity, and substance which outlasts even tough times, the limits of heredity or upbringing, a human lifespan, all strength which wains, and all that the writer above may himself value and strive to possess? Positioning for doubt, and disspelling other examinations about these passages and accuracy, without examining context, history, and the change that the Disciples and the world since their testimony ensued is to bury one’s aging head in the sand. The Resurrection, for example, is documented as being a fact by hundreds of beholders after the fact. Why is His story, the greatest story ever told? Where does His story become the linked reality of thousands, over time, as to integration within their own lifetimes’ experience? Change of hearts, lives, intentions, direction, and purpose is the legacy of Jesus, the Messiah and King of His present mystery Kingdom, soon to become something quite more.

  20. Jeff42 said

    Hey Boris,

    Nice cut and paste job! My criticisms of the previous list apply to this one as well. Anyone familiar with the true message of the Bible will immediately recognize the total lack of understanding of the biblical text that is displayed in the crafting of such lists. I doubt that anyone would waste their time responding to each and every one of these clumsy attempts to discredit the Son of God. And even if they did, you would not repent. You would only search the web for another ridiculous list to cut and paste. I wonder why you spend so much energy fighting against those who believe in God. Does our faith somehow create insecurity in you? Or are you fighting hard to suppress the truth of God that you find deep down in your heart (Romans 1:18-22)?

  21. Jeff42 said

    # Jesus, Who is He?

    1. Jesus has two natures at the same time: divine and human at the same time. He is both God and man (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9). This is called the Hypostatic Union.
    2. Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35).
    3. “He was born under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and fulfilled all of the Law of God (John 4:34 ; 8:29), even to the point of death (Phil. 2:8).
    4. In His death He bore the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (Gal. 3:13). Thus in the death of Christ the sins of His people were judged (Rom. 3:23-26) and forgotten (Heb. 8:12), and the result of His act of righteousness was eternal life (Rom. 5:18).
    5. Jesus is worshiped – (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6).
    6. Jesus is prayed to – (Acts 7:55-60; Psalm 116:4 with 1 Cor. 1:1-2).
    7. Jesus is called God – (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
    8. He is the creator (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17); Jesus is uncreated (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17).

    # Verses showing Jesus is divine

    1. He is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 8:58 with Exodus 3:14; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8).
    2. John 1:1,14 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us…”
    1. This shows that Jesus is God in flesh.
    2. If you say that John 1:1 should be “a” god, then…
    3. If Jesus is “a” god, then isn’t that polytheism?
    4. If Jesus is “a” god, then how many gods are their in JW theology?
    5. If Jesus is “a” god, then is he a true God or false god since the Bible says there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)?
    6. If Jesus is “a” god, then why does he tell people to come to him and not the Father (Matt. 11:28)?
    3. John 8:58, “Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” With Exodus 3:14 “God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.”
    1. Jesus uses the same title for Himself that God uses of Himself.
    2. If you say that the verse is really, “I have been”, then why did the Jews want to kill him — especially when in John 10:30-33 they say they want to kill Him because He claimed to be God? Where and what did Jesus say to cause them to think that?
    4. John 10:30-33, “‘I and the Father are one.’ 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, ‘I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?’ 33 The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'”
    1. Re: John 10:30-33, What was Jesus saying that caused the Jews to accuse Jesus of claiming to be God? If you can’t say, then you don’t know the text or the culture well enough to address the issue of Christ’s deity.
    5. John 20:27
    1. In John 20:27 Thomas called Jesus God by saying to Jesus, “My Lord and My God”. If Jesus is not God, then why did Jesus did not correct Thomas. Four verses later, it says that this is written so you might believe that Jesus is the son of God, (John 20:31). Therefore, we can see that the term Son of God is saying that Jesus is God.
    6. Col. 2:9, “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,”
    7. Phil. 2:5-7, “Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.”
    8. Heb. 1:8, “But of the Son He [The Father] says, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever…”
    1. If Jesus is not God, why does God Himself call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?
    2. This is a quote from Psalm 45:6 which has the best translation of “Thy Throne O God…”

    # Other Verses

    1. John 10:30-33, “‘I and the Father are one.’ 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, ‘I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?’ 33 The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'”
    1. Notice the Jews said, “You being a man, make yourself out to be God.” What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to say that Jesus was claiming to be God in John 10:30-33. If you don’t know, then you don’t understand.
    2. Regarding John 10:30-33, if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh, then you are agreeing with the Jews who killed Christ because they did not accept who He really was.
    2. Col. 1:15-16, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.”
    1. Firstborn is a transferrable title and does not necessitate being first created. Proof of this can be seen where Manasseh is the first born (Gen. 41:51-52 and then his brother Ephraim is called the firstborn (Jer. 31:9).
    1. Gen. 41:51-52, “And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fathers house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction.”
    2. Jer. 31:9, “…for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.”
    3. 1 Cor. 1:2, “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ their Lord and ours.”
    1. Why is the phrase “Call upon the name of the LORD” (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT, and translated into the Greek in the LXX as “Call upon the name of the LORD (Greek, KURIOS),” applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?
    1. The LXX is the Septuagint which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament done by Jews around 200 B.C.
    2. Psalm 116:4, “Then I called upon the name of the Lord [YHWH]: “O Lord [YHWH], I beseech Thee, save my life!”
    3. The literal translation of 1 Cor. 1:2 is “…call upon the name of the Lord of us Jesus Christ.”
    4. For more information, please see http://www.carm.org/jw/nameofLord.htm

    # Son of God, Son of Man

    1. Does the term “Son of God” mean that Jesus is not God? If so, then does the term “Son of Man” mean that Jesus is not a man?
    2. Likewise, if the term “Son of Man” means that Jesus is a man, then what does the term “Son of God” imply?

    # The Resurrection of Christ

    1. Jesus rose in the same body that He died in (John 2:19-21; Luke 24:36-43). Jesus’ body is resurrected.’ We do not know exactly what His body is like, but the nature of the resurrected body is discussed by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:35-58.
    1. John 2:19-21, “Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.’ 20 The Jews replied, It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days? 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body.”
    2. Luke 24:39, “Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
    1. Right now Jesus is in heaven, still as, and eternally to be both God and man (1 Tim. 2:5; Col. 2:9).
    1. This is important because Jesus is the High Priest forever: “where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek,” (Heb. 6:20). A spirit cannot be a high priest, only a man can do that. Furthermore, Jesus always lives to make intercession for us “Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them,” (Heb. 7:25).

  22. Jeff42 said

    Sorry, but I figured that one good cut and paste job deserves another. 🙂

  23. Boris said

    Nice cut and paste job! My criticisms of the previous list apply to this one as well.
    Boris says: You said nothing coherent about the previous text.

    Anyone familiar with the true message of the Bible will immediately recognize the total lack of understanding of the biblical text that is displayed in the crafting of such lists.
    Boris says: Some of these are a stretch I admit. But they’re all still beyond any solid explanation.

    I doubt that anyone would waste their time responding to each and every one of these clumsy attempts to discredit the Son of God.
    Boris says: Actually they discredit the Bible. I don’t believe Jesus ever existed.

    And even if they did, you would not repent.
    Boris says: I don’t need to repent from anything or to anyone. What are you talking about exactly? I’m not a sinner.

    You would only search the web for another ridiculous list to cut and paste.
    Boris says: I don’t need to search the Internet. What was Zipporah’s father’s name?

    I wonder why you spend so much energy fighting against those who believe in God.
    Boris says: I wonder why Christians spend so much energy fighting against science and atheism and why they tell soooo many lies about these things.

    Does our faith somehow create insecurity in you?
    Boris says: Your faith is a threat to my freedom and world peace. My atheism is a threat to your faith because it raises doubts in believers minds. Why are these atheists ALWAYS the best and the brightest among us, is what believers wonder.

    Or are you fighting hard to suppress the truth of God that you find deep down in your heart (Romans 1:18-22)?

    Boris says: Nope. I don’t believe there is any God and I specifically deny the existence of yours.

  24. Jeff42 said

    Boris: “I don’t believe Jesus ever existed.”

    You are free to take that radical position if you like. The vast majority of historians alive today would disagree with your biased conclusion. Respected historian Will Durant argued: “That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”

    Could a person who never lived have affected human history so remarkably? The reference work The Historians’ History of the World observed: “The historical result of [Jesus’] activities was more momentous, even from a strictly secular standpoint, than the deeds of any other character of history. A new era, recognized by the chief civilizations of the world, dates from his birth.” And even calendars today are based on the year that Jesus was thought to have been born.

    “I’m not a sinner.”

    So, you never do anything wrong? lie? cheat? … And you always do the right thing on every occasion? Me thinks you jest. 😉 I know, you would not define those things as “sins.”

    “My atheism is a threat to your faith because it raises doubts in believers minds.”

    That’s funny, so far your atheism is only strengthening my faith.

    “Why are these atheists ALWAYS the best and the brightest among us, is what believers wonder.”

    Again you over generalize. Some of the brightest people I know are believers. And some of the brightest scientists of history have been believers in God – Newton, Einstein, Pasteur, Galileo, Kepler, Salk, Faraday, Kelvin …

    That’s not to say that there are not very intelligent atheists. But my point is that the best and the brightest are not “ALWAYS” atheists. Surely you must admit this.

    “I don’t believe there is any God and I specifically deny the existence of yours.”

    Again, you are free to believe what you will, but that doesn’t make it so. I think the Word of God has you pegged pretty good:

    John 3:19-21 19 “And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. 20 “For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

    Romans 1:18-21 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    As to the Father of Zipporah, this is just another example of not understanding biblical history and proper interpretation of the Scriptures. The name “Reuel” is given in Exodus 2:18. In other places he is called Jethro. Some suggest that this is simply a confusion of traditions. But it is not uncommon for ancients, like Sabean kings and priests, to have more than one name. Several of the kings of Israel did, including Solomon (2 Samuel 12:24, 25).

    Boris, I know you don’t believe in the Bible. But I believe that the gospel is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes, including you if you will repent. So I leave you with the Word of God:

    Romans 3:21-26 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

  25. Boris said

    Jeff said: Boris: “I don’t believe Jesus ever existed.”
    You are free to take that radical position if you like. The vast majority of historians alive today would disagree with your biased conclusion.

    Boris says: No historian has any evidence that Jesus Christ ever existed and most won’t touch the subject of a historical Jesus since history is written with evidence and there isn’t any for Jesus Christ outside of obviously fictional accounts.

    Jeff said: Respected historian Will Durant argued: “That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”

    Boris says: Will Durant later drew many comparisons between the Greek dying and resurrecting godman Dionysus and concluded that he was the basis for much of the Jesus myth. I studied Durant’s “Ancient Greece” in college my friend. How “respected” is he to you now?

    Jeff said: Could a person who never lived have affected human history so remarkably?

    Boris says: Of course. It is the STORY not the person which has affected human history. Had Jesus actually existed he still did nothing during his life that caused any kind of change in the world.

    Jeff said: The reference work The Historians’ History of the World observed: “The historical result of [Jesus’] activities was more momentous, even from a strictly secular standpoint, than the deeds of any other character of history. A new era, recognized by the chief civilizations of the world, dates from his birth.” And even calendars today are based on the year that Jesus was thought to have been born.

    Boris says: Right! THOUGHT TO HAVE BEEN BORN! But no one knows for sure. Thanks for proving my point.

    Jeff said: “I’m not a sinner.”

    So, you never do anything wrong? lie? cheat? … And you always do the right thing on every occasion? Me thinks you jest. 😉 I know, you would not define those things as “sins.”

    Boris says: The only sin is willful ignorance.

    Jeff said: “My atheism is a threat to your faith because it raises doubts in believers minds.”

    That’s funny, so far your atheism is only strengthening my faith.

    Boris says: You no more believe in God than I do, nor do you really believe you are going to live forever. You are trying very very much to believe those things and would like me to also, just in case that might help you REALLY believe them. But you don’t really. No one does. Except the Muslims.

    Jeff said: Again you over generalize. Some of the brightest people I know are believers. And some of the brightest scientists of history have been believers in God – Newton, Einstein, Pasteur, Galileo, Kepler, Salk, Faraday, Kelvin …

    Boris says: Einstein did not believe in God, Pasteur rejected his faith and became an atheist later in life, Newton and Galileo lived in a time where one either professed Christian superstitions or was tortured to death and none of these people believed the kinds of crazy things modern creationists do.

    Jeff said: That’s not to say that there are not very intelligent atheists. But my point is that the best and the brightest are not “ALWAYS” atheists. Surely you must admit this.

    Boris says: Nope.

    Jeff said: “I don’t believe there is any God and I specifically deny the existence of yours.”

    Again, you are free to believe what you will, but that doesn’t make it so. I think the Word of God has you pegged pretty good:

    Boris says: You don’t have the word of any God in your paper idol there buddy.

    Jeff said: As to the Father of Zipporah, this is just another example of not understanding biblical history and proper interpretation of the Scriptures. The name “Reuel” is given in Exodus 2:18. In other places he is called Jethro. Some suggest that this is simply a confusion of traditions. But it is not uncommon for ancients, like Sabean kings and priests, to have more than one name. Several of the kings of Israel did, including Solomon (2 Samuel 12:24, 25).

    Boris says: Wrong. “Heber the Kenite had parted company with the tribe of Kain and with the sons of Hobab, father-in-law of Moses;” (Judges 4:11a). Explain that.

    Jeff said: Boris, I know you don’t believe in the Bible. But I believe that the gospel is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes, including you if you will repent. So I leave you with the Word of God:

    Boris says: You don’t have the Word of God. You have a paper idol which is the sole focus of your worship. Because we both know there is no God.

  26. Jeff42 said

    Granted, Einstein probably didn’t believe in a personal God the way that Christians do. But he certainly couldn’t be categorized as a atheist either since he said the following:

    “In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.”

    “I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human beings toward God.”

    Boris: “Heber the Kenite had parted company with the tribe of Kain and with the sons of Hobab, father-in-law of Moses;” (Judges 4:11a). Explain that.”

    Interesting! I thought I just did, “it is not uncommon for ancients, like Sabean kings and priests, to have more than one name.” I can personally think of at least five names that I am known by. Also, the Hebrew word translated “father-in-law” is a bit uncertain. This is evident in the ASV and the NIV translating it “brother-in-law.” But all this is probably wasted on you since your mind is already made up.

    I also find your telepathic abilities interesting. You know what I believe. Spooky!

    You and I will have to end this dialogue as we did the last one – agreeing to disagree.

  27. Boris said

    Jeff,
    Did you get those quotes out of a book Einstein wrote? Unless you did, I don’t believe Einstein ever said either of those things and here’s why:

    “It was, of course, a lie what you read about my my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbound admiration for the structure of the world so far as science can reveal it.”

    “Religion is an attempt to find out where there is no door.” – Albert Einstein

    Quote mining are you Jeff? I need some source references on those quotes. The first quote above comes from a letter Einstein wrote to a fellow atheist.

    As far as Zipporah having 3 fathers the Hebrew word translated father-in-law ‘chathan’ is not “a bit uncertain.” It’s the exact same word to describe Hobab, Jethro and Reuel in relation to Moses. The ASV and the NIV are doing a little Hollywood makeover with the text, attempting to obscure an obvious discrepancy. Also Zipporah was a Cushite and Reuel was a Midianite.

    I don’t know what you believe but I honestly don’t think the faith of most Christians is all that strong. I doubt many people really believe they are going to heaven but they are so afraid of hell they are willing to TRY to believe anything. Many Christians tell me if it weren’t for this fear/hope combo they wouldn’t even be Christians.

    Of all the religions Christianity seems the most absurd in its doctrines and I find it hard to believe that others really believe. Yet most fundamentalists tell me that they know that I really believe in God but I’m just mad at him or something. So sometimes in conversation I turn the tables on them to see how they react to their own mularky.

  28. Jeff42 said

    Boris,

    It has been fun, but I really must end this due to another very busy school week beginning. This being the case, I will allow your last post to be the last word since it is obvious that you take nothing I say seriously. Maybe we can chat again sometime, but for now we will simply have to recognize that we are at polar opposites with regard to the existence of God and the truth of Christianity. Thanks for the interaction.

  29. Brad said

    Jeff, best to just let people like Boris go. Romans 1 goes on to say that God gives the “depraved” over to their sinful ways, e.g. He gives them what they want, which is no association with Him. It’s too bad, it really is, but it’s what Boris wants and has chosen, and God has allowed that choice to stand. To argue any further with him is really just casting pearls before swine, Jeff. But your thoughts were good.

  30. Kasha said

    As the above thread illustrates, the Bible needs to be read, studied, and interpreted as a whole and not verse by verse. Which is why a person can believe the Bible is “God breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” and yet still have vastly different opinions on how Christ’s kingdom can best be worked for in the political realm. No one’s faith should be based on single verses – that’s too much like the pharisees! You can be against abortion but still not think it should be criminalized. There are other ways to keep women from having them. And you can be pro-life and decide that it is more important to vote for the candidate that is less likely to take us to war than the candidate who is going to stack the supreme court with like-minded justices on one issue, and to the devil with the rest of the constitution. I also think a person can be sincerely Christian and not think that a committed, monogamous homosexual relationship is a sin. And please don’t quoted Leviticus at me, at least quote Romans 1:24-27. There is A LOT in Leviticus that we don’t follow anymore, no matter how literally we take the Bible.

    Not many people would actually want Jesus for president, because He wouldn’t make decisions based on what was best for the United States, He would make decisions based on what was best for mankind. Somehow I don’t think that would include billions of dollars for our military-industrial complex. Equating a particular political party (liberal OR conservative, democrat OR republican) with Christianity demeans the message of Jesus and makes it more difficult for our missionaries throughout the world when that political party behaves, as it inevitably will do, in a non-Christian manner.

    Jesus says we need to believe in Him, His resurrection, and the forgiveness of sins to be saved. Everything else we need to pray about and not use as a barrier to other people’s salvation.

  31. John said

    For what it’s worth coming from me, I think that that was very well put, Kasha.
    Welcome to the site.

  32. Brad said

    You can be against abortion but still not think it should be criminalized.

    Agreed.

    And you can be pro-life and decide that it is more important to vote for the candidate that is less likely to take us to war than the candidate who is going to stack the supreme court with like-minded justices on one issue, and to the devil with the rest of the constitution.

    A little less in agreement, but I would still nonetheless generally agree.

    I also think a person can be sincerely Christian and not think that a committed, monogamous homosexual relationship is a sin.

    I’d take issue with this one. The Bible clearly labels homosexuality as a sin. Yes, it labels many things as a sin, I’m not saying that homosexuality is any worse than any other. But it DOES label it a sin – doesn’t matter whether it’s in a “committed, monogamous” relationship or not. To say that one can be Christian and still be in this kind of relationship, or to say that one can be Christian and think that OTHERS can be in this kind of relationship, without it being a sin, is Biblically incorrect. I’d have to disagree with you on that one.

    Not many people would actually want Jesus for president, because He wouldn’t make decisions based on what was best for the United States, He would make decisions based on what was best for mankind.

    I would – if the decision is best for mankind, it’s going to be inherently good for everyone. But I agree with you – not many would probably ACTUALLY want that.

    Equating a particular political party (liberal OR conservative, democrat OR republican) with Christianity demeans the message of Jesus and makes it more difficult for our missionaries throughout the world when that political party behaves, as it inevitably will do, in a non-Christian manner.

    Agreed. While I think that each party is distinguishable from the other on key issues, I would agree that true Christianity is not “party” specific.

  33. John said

    Brad, do you think that Jesus[as the President]would actually be inclined to listen to and be led by Congress?
    I wouldn’t think that he would. It wouldn’t work out, as he probably wouldn’t follow all of the silly restrictions, red tape, and be willing to compromise his principles like those involved in government and politics are so apt to do.
    It is easy for me to see him constantly on guard aganst assassination attempts. And wouldn’t he rule from the Middle East anyway?

  34. Kasha said

    Brad,

    I totally understand why many, if not most, Christian believe that homosexuality under any circumstance is condemned by the Bible as sin. But here are my reasons for thinking that a sincere, Bible believing Christian could welcome homosexuals into the church under certain circumstances. After all, there are homosexuals who love Jesus, and what are we do to about them? Make them go to church by themselves? Make them swear to be celibate? I don’t think homosexuality is a choice – who would CHOOSE to be part of a despised minority?
    Anyway, as I understand it, there are only seven brief passages that deal with homosexuality. None are in the gospels.
    The first is the story of Sodom and Gomorra, which is about gang rape and if you used it as a guide for behavior it would seem to say that it is ok to gang rape women, just not angels (Lot offerred his daughters, remember?) THe passage in Deuteronomy 23 refers to Canaanite fertility rites that had infiltrated Jewish worship. Leviticus, which I referred to before, also demands that any man who touches a woman during her menstrual period is to be stoned to death, that adulterers are to be executed, that two types of cloth are not to be worn together, that two different crops shouldn’t be planted together (gardening is a sin???), etc. Passages in I Corinthians and I Timothy refer to male prostitution.

    THe most difficult passage for me is found in Paul’s letter to the Romans. I have read scholars that claim the background for his understanding was the common Roman practice of older males ‘keeping’ young boys for sexual exploitation. Roman society was equally if not more sexually immoral than our modern situation in this country, where both heterosexual and homosexual perversions were practiced widely and as part of god and goddess worship. No wonder Paul was disgusted and quick to condemn something Jesus never directly addressed to our knowledge.

    But even if Paul would have condemned a loving, adult, life long relationship between two men or two women who for some reason were born not being attracted to the opposite gender (and why would God doom someone that way?), Paul also told women not to teach, not to cut their hair, not to speak in church. Do we follow his teaching? He instructed slaves to obey their masters, which we once used to justify slavery as God’s will. We understand these passages differently now, but still trust the word of the Bible.
    As a woman minister said in a sermon that helped me find peace on this matter: “The fact is, I am not a disciple of Paul. I am an admirer of Paul, but a disciple of Jesus Christ. Paul himself says that we should not follow him, but Christ alone. So I come back, again to the life and teaching of Jesus as the center of my faith. In that light all other biblical teaching must be critiqued.”
    I know homosexuals who love Christ and want to worship him with other Christians, but are kept out of the community of faith unless they hide their orientation. I just don’t see Jesus condemning them. I don’t like the homosexual lifestyle of gay bars and casual hookups, but then, I don’t like the heterosexual version either and I think that is the Holy Spirit in me disapproving of an unrighteous lifestyle. I have to admit it would make me uncomfortable if a gay couple wanted to get married in the church I attend. But I am willing to accept that might be MY hangup and not GOd’s. I just don’t know. All I know is that I would hate for a homosexual person to miss out on the joy that is knowing Christ because they were not welcomed by other Christians. We let people come to church who we know party on Saturday night (if not other nights also!) or are “living in sin” with someone of the opposite gender. We let divorcees attend church and get remarried, even though this issue Jesus DID specifically condemn. So why are we so much harder on and hold homosexuals to a higher level of judgement?

    Thank you for reading such a long post,
    Kasha

  35. Brad said

    John, I didn’t make any references to Christ and Congress – I only agreed that I would love to have Him as President.

  36. Brad said

    I totally understand why many, if not most, Christian believe that homosexuality under any circumstance is condemned by the Bible as sin. But here are my reasons for thinking that a sincere, Bible believing Christian could welcome homosexuals into the church under certain circumstances. After all, there are homosexuals who love Jesus, and what are we do to about them? Make them go to church by themselves? Make them swear to be celibate? I don’t think homosexuality is a choice – who would CHOOSE to be part of a despised minority?

    Kasha, I won’t comment any further. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this. If you don’t think it’s a choice, then we don’t even have the ability to come to a mutual agreement. I believe the Bible supports my position, and can back it up. And I’m sure you feel the same way, and we would disagree on that, as well.

    Thanks.

  37. Boris said

    I don’t think homosexuality is a choice – who would CHOOSE to be part of a despised minority?

    This is the kind of cultural prejudice that has made fundamentalist Christians a MOST despised minority themselves. Are homosexuals really part of a despised minority? Who despises them? Why not many people really, except for most Christians. THEY are the people who despise homosexuals and want to restrict their rights as human beings.

  38. Kasha said

    Boris and Brad,
    I am perfectly content to agree to disagree. And like I said, I understand why sincere Christians think the Bible unequivocally says homosexuality is a sin and I would never say that I didn’t think they were really Christians. But the thread began with the question: can a liberal be a Christian? And I obviously think they can. There are Christians who say if you don’t think homosexuality is a sin, you are not really a Christian. My only point is that I think you can really be a Bible believing Christian and not think a committed, monogamous homosexual relationship is a sin. I don’t expect all “fundamentalists” to agree, and I certainly don’t despise them (although I do recognize that they are much maligned in certain circles) since I go to church with many of them and consider myself a “fundamentalist” in that I believe what I consider to be the fundamentals of the BIble. The question is simply, as I stated above: is the homosexuality=sin issue enough to condemn someone to eternal damnation regardless of all their other beliefs about the grace, atonement, the resurrection, the Great Commission, and all the other issues that Jesus addressed much more directly.

  39. Kasha said

    Boris,
    Sorry, I didn’t read your post carefully enough. I see now that you were intimating that only “fundamental” Christians despise homosexuals, which I think is not quite true, especially historically. Obviously, homosexuality has become more accepted in mainstream culture recently. As an atheist, this discussion must seem absurd to you. But I assure you, many Christians struggle with this issue precisely because we are called to be the loving face of God in this world rather than the wrathful judgement, and we see many of our own most vocal members behaving as if it were their right to condemn. I don’t blame you for being disgusted by this. But please don’t judge God by the actions of only some of His followers! The same religion that leads some to blame the hurricane in New Orleans on homosexuals leads many others (that you don’t hear about) to nurse those dying of AIDS and many other good and selfless acts.

  40. I just watched the finish of “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington”. In this movie, for those who might be unfamiliar with it, Mr. Smith stands up to the powerful political machine that runs his state. What he “stand upon” is called in the movie, “right” and basic human decency. What it actually is, however, is Biblical Christianity, or more precisely, it’s influence on a culture.

    Mr. Smith, in his final soliloquy, reminds the senior Senator of his state, that he too used to fight for the “lost causes” (or for truth) because of “one simple rule, love thy neighbor”. “Love thy neighbor” is part of the Great Commandment that is central to both the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the New Testament. (In order to truly “Love thy neighbor”, one must Love God, first.) That is the purpose of Christians in Politics, or any other calling in this life. “Liberal” and “Conservative” are meaningless terms in the face of “Truth” and “Love”.

  41. Boris said

    I would like someone to show me a religion that does NOT have the command to love one’s neighbor as central to its moral and ethical codes and dominant in its theology. Buddha, Krishna, Mithras all commanded their followers to love their neighbors. Christianity has absolutely no claim on this ethical teaching whatsoever. It was around a long time before there were any Jews or Christians on this planet.

  42. F. L. A. said

    By about 600 years.
    And Hinduism is even older, but still not the oldest.
    Your post ties in rather well with Bob’s Hypothetical scenario involving personal morals and murder on the other evolutionary site.

  43. Matt said

    Kevin DeYoung and Ted Kluck just released a great book on the growing Socialist Christian movement and what a load it truly is. Why We’re Not Emergent. It is a must read.

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