Welcome to TruthTalkLive.com!

Today’s Issues, From a Biblical Perspective!

Can we trust the BIBLE?

Posted by truthtalklive on July 17, 2008

On todays show Stu interviews Internet apologist J.P. Holding, the author of these great books Shattering the Christ Myth, The Impossible Faith, and The Mormon Defenders 

J.P Holding will be speaking at Shepherd’s Fellowship of Greensboro, NC http://www.sfofgso.org/this Sunday morning at 10:00 a.m.
 For a podcast of todays show please visit www.wtru.com
Advertisements

106 Responses to “Can we trust the BIBLE?”

  1. Barney said

    G.A. Wells answers J.P. Holding:

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/g_a_wells/holding.html

    ciao,
    Barney

  2. Maz said

    Which translation? There are hundreds!

  3. ADB said

    The answer to your question Maz, is that the doctrine of inerrancy does not apply to particular translations whether they be in English, Spanish, or Swahili. The original manuscripts are thought to be inerrant in all they teach. This encourages the field of textual criticsm in which scholars are always trying to find older manuscripts that presumably would be closer to what the Biblical writers wrote. It should be noted by the way that the number of “textual variants” in the Bible are very small compared with other ancient literature. The original manuscripts are inerrant in all they teach, so that one really can’t use the inerrancy argument in debated doctrines. With eschatology, forms of church organization, free will/predestination, (and I would add creation), people differ widely even though they all affirm inerrancy. Personally, I think that the inerrancy/infallibility doctrine is misused somewhat by a lot of people. This should be an encouragement to really dig and study to overcome the difficulties, the places where scriptures seem to contradict each other. It should be an incentive to take seriously the commands of scripture and model our lives after them. Instead it is used like “God said it, I believe it, that settles it,” which is intellectual laziness in my opinion, or it is used as a club to wield against others who may disagree.

    As always the curmudgeonly pastor 🙂

  4. Boris said

    Men wrote the books of the Bible, men argued over and then voted on which books out of hundreds should be the basis for their church. That in no way makes the Bible the Word of God nor does it give the Bible any kind of authority outside of Christianity. Neither does it make the Bible the property of any particular group or organization. Only 8 per cent of the people in this country are still naive and ill-informed enough to not realize that the stories in the Bible are fiction. I’m ashamed of the Americans that are this silly because they’ve made us the laughingstock of the rest of the world. Christians just need to grow up and let go of their invisible daddy and face the world like an adult.

  5. Boris said

    “The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them.” – Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989), German New Testament scholar.

    “If one were to take the Bible seriously one would go mad. But to take the Bible seriously, one must already be mad.” – Aleister Crowley

  6. Joey said

    I believe that man should have left the writtings of the scriptures alone. They should not have added or taken away from it. The book of Enoch was originally in the old testament, but when these politician/ preachers didn’t like what certian scriptures were saying or if a woman wrote the scripture, they would exclude it from they’re so called,” Official Book”. I believe that if anyone is lead astray because these men excluded scriptures from Gods work, they will have to answer for it. The problem is that certain people feel that God loves them more than others or that they are more,”Holy” than someone else. The truth, is that we ALL fall short and no one in this world is good except the “Father who is in Heaven”. How dare these,”Men” say that God did or didn’t ordain something. The King James Verson of the Bible says that,”All scripture is inspired by God”. In my opinion, that means ORDAINED. If someone is not against God, then he must be for Him. I didn’t say that, Jesus did. Any authority that we as men have, came from God. He didn’t give us the authority to become Him, but to represent his word. If we pick and choose which word we are going to represent, then we are saying that we know more than Him and that He’s wrong for selecting scripture from a man that walked with him and was selected as his scribe. Some preachers will say that a women should not teach the Word of God or shouldn’t be a pastor. What they failed to say is that Jesus didn’t say that, one of his diciples did. They also fail to mention that these are the same diciples that argued over who would be the greatest in heaven. These guys are no more than men. They are inspired by God to write but some of the things they wrote were their own personal beliefs and not God’s Word. God loves us all, Men and Women alike. He uses whomever he chooses to use for whatever reason he chooses to use them. If He can make a jackass speak and use a jackass for his purpose, as in Numbers 22, then he can use a women. Where is the, “Love one another as I have Loved you”. Some pastors won’t visit a church that’s pastored by a women. Is that love or arrogance? They think they are following God’s word by refusing to associate with a women pastor, but in reality, they are close minded people who are too Holy to understand God. God is the God of Love and Compassion, of Knowledge and Truth, of Justice and Faithfullness, of Mercy and Forgiveness, and of Reward and Punishment. I pray for everyone, that all may come to an understanding of wisdom and that during this transition, their faith will not fail them. God Bless. Joey

  7. Brad said

    Joey,

    You misunderstand the phrase “inspired by God”, to make the arguments you do.

  8. Barney said

    Dear Moderator, was there a problem with my earlier post?

  9. Maz said

    ADB: #2. Yes I agree. It would pay for all Pastors and leaders in the Church to teach us Hebrew and Greek…..atleast enough to know what the originals are saying….there is a great lack of real Bible Study in Churches nowadays. I did try learning basic Greek myself but gave up early on. Would love to learn the Hebrew aswell, but again I’m too long in the tooth to start studying languages!

  10. ADB said

    Thanks Maz,

    I studied both in seminary. I took Hebrew and thought it was hard, and then I met Greek in summer school and Hebrew all of a sudden seemed awfully easy! Unfortunately my Greek is of little use to me now in terms of actually translating a passage, though I remember a lot of the vocabulary. I’m a little better with Hebrew, but still not very proficient.

    Best Wishes

  11. F. L. A. said

    ADB, what are your thoughts on the comments that character Boris made in post#50 on the “Should Christians Boycott the Golden Arches?” site in regards to the ancient Jewish theological literature?

  12. Boris,

    You said,

    “Men wrote the books of the Bible, men argued over and then voted on which books out of hundreds should be the basis for their church. That in no way makes the Bible the Word of God nor does it give the Bible any kind of authority outside of Christianity. Neither does it make the Bible the property of any particular group or organization. Only 8 per cent of the people in this country are still naive and ill-informed enough to not realize that the stories in the Bible are fiction. I’m ashamed of the Americans that are this silly because they’ve made us the laughingstock of the rest of the world. Christians just need to grow up and let go of their invisible daddy and face the world like an adult.

    My friend, are you going to actually provide an argument to back up your long list of assertions here or are you going to simply emote?

  13. John said

    It’s just my opinion, but I think that your being just a little bit too critical of theology[or is it just Christianity?], Boris. Even if most or all of the stories in the Bible are fictional there are still valuable lessons that can be learned from them.
    It’s not ALL death, mayhem, and condemnation, Boris.
    I could make a list of positive, helpful things that I learned in the Bible and their corresponding Bible verses if you would like Boris[Yes that’s right, the homicidal Pagan Witch that likes monsters said this.].
    Despite the bigotry, death, and destruction that theology sometimes gives birth to, there is also much creativity that is inspired by theology.Think of the artwork, the paintings, the sculptures, the music and poetry, the amusing stories that have been made and enjoyed over the centuries.Some of it can take your breath away and bring one to tears.
    I could provide a list of that, too if you like.If you care.

  14. ADB said

    FLA,

    I’m not sure how the rabbis looked at the creation accounts. My hunch is that the rabbis wouldn’t even consider the age of the earth, but that’s just a guess. Often a Jewish interpretation of scripture is somewhat different from a Christian view. In fact the Jewish Publication Society translation of their scriptures is remarkably different from Christian translations. In fact, I sometimes read from it in worship when I’m preaching an OT text just for the change of pace. Boris is clearly off the mark in saying that the Jews didn’t take the Torah seriously. The Torah was cherished by all of them, even if they often had trouble obeying it. Not believing in YEC simply does not equate with not taking Torah seriously, particularly when speaking of ancient Jews. As far as Satan goes. The Satan personage appears a few times in the OT, in Job but also in Zechariah I think. Overall, the view of Satan (the word Satan simply translates “adversary” or “accuser” from Hebrew) seems to change over time from the “accuser” of Job and Zechariah to the prince of darkness we’re accustomed to. Some NT scholars say that the Devil of the NT and the Satan of the OT are different entities altogether, but I personally disagree with that, and would see Satan as being pretty evil in Job. Job, by the way is far more than myth. Most scholars do believe that there was a real story behind the book of Job, and place him as being roughly contemporary with Abraham.

    Hope this helps

  15. Tripp said

    Methinks perhaps Mr. Boris is over-compensating for something.

  16. John said

    Perhaps Tripp, or perhaps not.
    Mr./Miss/Mrs. Boris may have also once been “hurt” or felt betrayed in some fashion in the past that involved theology.
    Perhaps something happened that was left unresolved, that time could not heal, which grew into resentment.

  17. Alex said

    Boris is right though…

    Does anyone else think the Oprah rant on the intro is hilarious?

  18. F. L. A. said

    Thank you for your thoughts, ADB.

  19. Anonymous said

    Dustin,
    I don’t have to prove that men wrote the Bible or that they argued and voted on it. That is common knowlege accepted by even the most conservative orthodox “scholars” (as if a believer in fairytales could somehow be legitimately called a scholar). The figure of 8 per cent of Americans being Bible literalists is broadcast daily on almost every Christian radio network. What assertions are there that you want me to prove Dustin?

    John, there isn’t anything about morals or clean living in the Bible that can’t be found elsewhere. The problem with the Bible is that there is too much violenece, intolerence and superstition mixed in with the moralizing which confuses the ignorant. This is what has led to the blooy history of Christianity and Christians and their insane desire to control every person on the planet through fear.

  20. John said

    But also don’t forget that not all Christians are that way, Boris[that was you as Anonymous,right?].Many follow Christianity for the sense of peace, satisfaction, and hope of a better future that they believe it will bring[in addition to the spiritual benefits]. And some just wish to share this wonderful personal experience with all others[Hey all you reading Christians, tell me if I’m wrong or right about this, if you would so that if I’m wrong I can shut up and stop making a fool of myself]. Yes I know that there are good morals to be learned in other theological and non-theological belief systems, but the fact that there are indeed some there within the Christian Bible should not be overlooked or just brushed aside. As a whole the human animal IS…violent, superstitious, and domineering over all other life. And included in this behavior are a few very popular Atheists, as you should well know[knowing, sympathetic smile].
    This cannot be changed.It is,..”the nature of the beast”, and many many people are ignorant. We have to just do the best that we can with what we can, when we can, and hope for the best.

  21. Maz said

    John: You are perfectly right! It’s too wonderful to keep to yourself!

  22. Boris said

    John,
    What wonderful experience are you talking about? Thinking that if you don’t adopt someone elses religious beliefs and then in the future ever question their/your religious beliefs you will be tortured with unimaginable violence forever and ever? Or the belief that the world could end at any moment now, as Christians have for 2000 years and they just might not be invited up into the clouds because they bought into slightly faulty doctrine and dogma?

    I’m well aware that man is violent AND superstitious. But whenever humans have committed atrocities on each other in any great number there has always been some preposterous doctrine behind it based on absurd superstitions, usually religious. Once we curb the superstitious nature of man with a good dose of science, man’s violent tendencies will disappear naturally.

  23. John said

    “Once we curb the superstitious nature of man with a good dose of science, man’s violent tendencies will disappear naturally.”
    Ooooh, I doubt that.
    The day that men are able to do that is the day that men will cease to be “human”.
    Not everyone who becomes and stays a Christian does so out of intimidation, spiritual or otherwise, Boris.
    The “wonderful experience” that I was referring to is something that only someone with a self-satisfying theological belief system can probably understand.That comfort that comes with knowing, feeling in your being, that your big “invisible sky fairy”[smile] is watching over and inspiring you. I realize that this may sound lame, sentimental, and unsatisfying to you, but this is just the best way that I can think of to explain it right now.Bear in mind that your conversing with someone who believes in Fairies,ghosts, and monsters, thinks that they’re a Witch because they have magickal powers, and is polytheistic.
    I never made claims of normality or sanity[toothy grin].
    Perhaps one of the Christians on this site can do a better job at helping you to understand that “wonderful experience” I mentioned.I have to go home now and go to bed for work tomorrow.
    Goodnight.

  24. F. L. A. said

    “The day that men are able to do that is the day that men will cease to be “human”.”

    And not even that is any real guarantee, you know.

  25. Maz said

    Religious fanaticism rules by fear and threat, I think we have and can see that in the world today. But the God I follow and serve and believe in does not drive me to blow up people, neither does He inspire me to hate anyone or force them to believe what I believe. I love people because God loves people and has put His love in my heart.
    What about the violence that came against Jesus? He came in love, He came to heal, He came to show Gods LOVE….and what did human beings do? ”GOD WAS IN CHRIST…” when He died and suffered agony for you and me. That is why I love Him so much, He SAVED me from the Hell I deserved for MY sin, He came to suffer INSTEAD OF ME…so I wouldn’t have to take the punishment I deserved. But somehow that isn’t enough for some people…they would rather choose to go to Hell….yes, they CHOOSE to go there simply because they will not recognise the love that God has for them.
    He doesn’t want ANYONE to go to Hell, He doesn’t want ANYONE to suffer for eternity, THAT IS WHY JESUS CAME. ”For God SO LOVED THE WORLD”…and YOU BORIS…”that He gave His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON that whosoever” (if you Boris) ”believes in Him should not perish”..should NOT GO TO HELL…”but have eternal life.” Jesus has purchased that eternal life for YOU, why do you fight against Him and reject Him so much?

    John: If you were a born-again, spirit filled Christian….you would be a jolly good preacher!

  26. Boris said

    “What after all is the cross of Jesus Christ? It is nothing but the sum total of a sadomasochistic glorification of pain. Christianity has not failed the ideals of its founder: Christ has failed. Corrupt in its very essence, the gospel of Christ alone has persecuted the Jews, defamed the female and suppressed sexuality.” – Joachim Kahl

  27. Alex said

    I love your quotes Boris. Where do you get them?

  28. Boris said

    Maz says: I love people because God loves people and has put His love in my heart.

    I love people because it comes naturally, not because it is demanded by an invisible boogyman. Christians always tell me if there was no God there would be nothing to keep them from murdering, stealing from and otherwise mistreating others. Then they turn around and claim that they have superior morals! Christians have the worst morals of any group on the planet!

    Maz says: ”GOD WAS IN CHRIST…” when He died and suffered agony for you and me.

    No, according Christian theology God IS Christ and Christ IS God. Therefore we have a bogus tautology because we have a God sacrificing himself TO himself so that he is then able to then do something else, forgive sinners. The whole thing is a needless redundancy because if God wanted to forgive sinners he could just do so. The fact that God had to make a blood sacrifice of himself to himself proves that the Christian God is tossed about by circumstance just like the rest of us. Therefore we can safely assume that the Christian God does not exist.

    Maz says: He doesn’t want ANYONE to go to Hell,

    That might be the silliest thing I’ll read in a while. If God didn’t want people to go to hell he would never had created it in the first place. Do you people ever think about what you are really saying.

    Like you John. You claim to be a witch and polytheistic. You would not have had the nerve to make those claims publicly around say this Maz person say 300 years ago in this very country. You would have been tortured and burned at the stake.

    “{The Bible commanded that [witches] should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church… gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest, She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches… Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never has been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry.” – Mark Twain

    The Bible says that witches exist but they don’t so the Bible is wrong about witches. The Bible is wrong about a lot of other things to (bats are NOT birds, ants DO have a leader, rabbits DON’T chew the cud, dragons and giants DIDN’T exist, etc.). It’s amazing how Christians can ignore all the absurd claims the Bible makes and still insist the Bible is factual. Nothing could be more ridiculous or more indefensible.

  29. Boris said

    Alex,
    I get a lot of quotes from “The Quotable Atheist” by Jack Huberman. If a believer were to thumb through this collection of quotes their face would turn red pretty quickly. Many of the quotes are from ancient philosophers proving that atheism has been around and going strong forever.

    “Do we, holding that the gods exist, deceive ourselves with insubstantial dreams and lies, while random careless chance and change alone control the world?” – Euripides (c. 480-406BCE).

  30. Alex said

    Thanks 😀

    Yeah, atheism is older than theism.

  31. Maz said

    Boris: I love God FREELY, not because I ”have to”. You assume too much. I love Him because of what He has done for me and what He IS to me.

    ”Christians have the worst morals of any group on the planet”.
    Do you ever THINK about what you are actually saying?
    You cannot with all honesty think of another group of people on this planet with WORST morals than Christians? What kind of ‘Christians’ have you been looking at?

    THE BIBLE SAID ”God was in Christ…” it also said ”The Word was WITH GOD…” that does not negate the fact that Jesus is as much God as the Father and the Holy Spirit. Yes, He is God.
    So doesn’t His sacrifice on the cross mean that much more knowing that the God that you seem to dispise so much actually came and DIED in the form of the Man Jesus the Messiah?
    What more can He ever do for you Boris?

    YOU SAID Jesus was God…yet you also say that ”the Christian God does not exist”. Mmmmm??

    And God coud not ”just do so”…that is, forgive our sins. Adam gave up his right as a son of God when he sinned and brought death upon all men. Jesus had to come to pay the price to redeem us back to our Father, by living a SINLESS life, dying and taking the penalty for sin for us, and then rising victoriusly over death for us. He conquered sin, death and hell, FOR US. What Adam lost, Jesus regained…He was called the ”last Adam”. God could do it no other way. Don’t you think He would if He could….didn’t Jesus pray in the garden, ”If there be another way…but not my will” (not Jesus the man’s will) ”but yours be done”.
    He died willingly because He loved us so much.

    God created Hell for the devil and his angels. They are eternal beings, and at the end of time they had to be put somewhere where they cold no longer have power over mankind. It’s only those who want to follow him into hell that will end up there rather than follow Jesus to Heaven. God could not have made it any easier for you or anyone to be saved. You don’t have to work for it, or keep any laws for it, you just need to ask Jesus to be your Savior and Lord. Why is that so difficult for some people?

    You ask US if we think about what WE are saying? Really Boris……..

    Witchcraft is very real. It is still in operation today. Everyday people get involved in the occultic side of spirituality, but I would not agree that witches should be burned at the stake….not then and not now. They need to be saved just like anyone else. Did Paul ever tell the people in the Church to get hold of the woman that was possessed by an evil spirit and burn her?….NO…he cast the devil out IN JESUS NAME!
    I read about the Spanish Inquisition where they tortured people terribly. It was done by the Roman Catholic Church of the time….many believers in Christ were also tortured and burnt at the stake then because they refused to follow the RC religion. THAT was NOT true Christianity.

    There are no ”absurd claims” in the Bible…aleast not to me…so I do not ignore them as you so easily assume. (again!) I believe it…. ALL. That does not mean that I understand it all!

    If you listen to MAN’s word over God’s, your ignorance will lead you astray just as a fool goes astray without God. ”The fool in his heart says ‘There is not God’.”

    And atheism is not older than theism….for God Himself was there before ever a man disbelieved in Him…and Adam, the first man, had fellowship with Him before sin drove him from His presence. Adam made a choice all that time ago and man still has to make a choice today….it is either his own way….down to hell, or he can follow Christ the loving Savior who offers eternal life in Heaven. Surely only a fool would choose the first option.

  32. John said

    Boris doesn’t believe in me?!?
    OH NOOOOO!!!
    IMMM..FAAaadinggggg….Awaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy…….aaaaaaaaaaahhh.hh…h…!.
    ……..”poof”..

    And yet, somehow, here I am typing a message to you.[toothy grin].You assume too much. Yes I already know about what the Bible teaches about people like me.I even have a copy of the Malleus Maleficarum. Are you familiar with it?
    That’s why my kinfolk came here to America in the late 1700’s.

    Maz, as to what you said about me being a jolly good preacher, uh..thanks….I think.

  33. Boris said

    Maz, the beginning and the end of your post spliced together.

    Boris: I love God FREELY, not because I ”have to”. You assume too much. I love Him because of what He has done for me and what He IS to me….it is either his own way….down to hell, or he can follow Christ the loving Savior who offers eternal life in Heaven.

    Your idea of a loving savior who sends most of humanity to eternal torment simply because they never heard of him or many of the ones who have find the stories people tell about him completely unbelievable and therefore find him impossible to believe in is insane. Plus in the beginning and the end of your post, you’ve admitted that you believe because you are afraid not to, once someone disregards the nonsense in between.

    Maz says: Adam gave up his right as a son of God when he sinned and brought death upon all men.

    Again the whole idea of a loving God punishing all of humanity for two people’s intellectual curiosity is ridiculous. FYI human beings are animals and animals die. It is so typical of religion to have such a fairy tale reason for things that are simply part of nature. If you think death is some kind of punishment you really are out of touch with reality.

    You can’t make the claim that atheism is not older than theism without first proving the theist argument which is that there really is a God. Just because you think there is doesn’t make it so.

    Maz says: There are no ”absurd claims” in the Bible…aleast not to me…

    You don’t find the claim that one man killed a thousand soldiers with the jawbone of an ass absurd? How many would Samson have had to kill for it to be absurd to you? 2000? 10,000?

  34. John said

    And yet Boris, how can an Atheist prove beyond any doubt that there is no such thing as a deity?
    Just because you think there isn’t doesn’t make it so[smile].
    Seriously, any system of thought that one might try and use is a system created my humans for humans to help them try and believe that they actually have a rather good understanding of this sort of a thing[just like the theist!]. True, some systems seem to make a lot more sense than others do, and some make no rational sense at all, but you have to remember that everything created by people is always subject to some[perhaps as yet unknown] imperfection[and “perfection” of any kind is just a matter of perception, really]. The universe is a very weird place, and we as a species are just barely beginning to understand it.
    Try and keep an open mind.

  35. John said

    Hey Boris, that site that pops up when one clicks on your name, did you compose that site? I actually already had a copy of it that I copied over a year ago[it now sits in the “Christianity” section of my library].I was just wondering.

  36. Boris said

    John,
    The atheist isn’t out to prove anything and the burden of proof on the subject of God is on the believer anyway. No one has to prove a silent invisible God for which there is no evidence doesn’t exist. The unseen and unheard need not be disproved.

    I don’t know why these blogs ask for a website. That one isn’t mine. It belongs to a woman whose grandfather was a Nazi soldier. Her grandfather described how the Nazi military was indoctrinated with the Christian religion and how not just Jews but all non-Christians were targeted during the Holocaust. Did you know 5 million non-Christians were also murdered along with 6 million Jews by evangelical German soldiers?

  37. Maz said

    Boris: You are looking at God from the wrong side. You keep looking at the negative….which is MAN’s choice….and not at the positive GOD’s choice. If it hadn’t been Adam it would have been……you?…or I??…or any other person would have been tempted and disobeyed God. He gave them just one tiny command, and He also told them the consequences. If you tell a child the fire is dangerous and will burn them but they havn’t seen fire before and just want to…..TOUCH….AHH!! WHO chose to touch the flame. Now ofcourse you are going to say, why was the fire there in the first place? Well, if the temptation wasn’t there, Adam would have had no choice to follow God or go his own way. We all have choices in life. You seem to have chosen your way, and it will take you where you will not want to be when you get there.
    God is sendig you to hell….HE IS TRYING HARD TO WARN YOU RIGHT NOW!!!! DON’T GO THERE!!
    But you ARE’NT LISTENING.

    Samson? God was with him that’s why. When God is involved He makes sure that the man KNOWS it wasn’t his own strength that did it. Just like David and Goliath or Gideon and his 300 men against thousands.

    Prove to me that there is no God, and I will prove to you that there is. 🙂

    I’m going on holiday until Friday, so won’t be back till then. Happy posting!

  38. Boris said

    Maz,
    Why bother proving anything to me? Take your proofs for God down to the National Academy for Sciences and show THEM your proofs for God and then you will win a Nobel Prize and become an instant millionaire. You will have proved you made the most important discovery ever! But you won’t do this and no one else will either. That’s because you have nothing but goofy arguments to defend your childish beliefs and arguments are NOT evidence. Poof, away with your nuttiness till way past Friday.

  39. F. L. A. said

    The Atheist isn’t out to prove anything, Boris? Are you sure? Because it Seeeeeeeems after reading your posts, to appear that you are out to prove something; ATHEISM TRIUMPHANT!
    Or am I mistaken?
    “The unseen and unheard need not be disproved”-Boris.
    One can often hear the Gods with ones heart/conceince[yesIknowthatword’smisspelled]or within dreams.
    The Wiccan Witches have two rituals called Drawing Down The Moon and The Great Rite in which the High Priest and High Priestest become possessed by their deities.Seems real to THEM and those watching.
    John once saw a deity, or something very much like one, and seeing is believing, as they say….[huge sharp-toothed grin].
    Personally I think that only those who are insecure in they’re chosen faith put so much effort into trying to prove the existence of their deities, but this is just my own opinion of course.

  40. John said

    Dagnabbit Ferox, that was a personal secret thing.I wish you had not mentioned that.
    These people are going to start thinking that I’m like that “King Thomas” character!

    Alex,about post#30, what makes you believe that Atheism is older than theism? People have been acting religious since they have evolved into “people” waaaaay back into the Old Stone Age.

    Boris, if that is not your website then how is it connected to you? Why does it pop up when ever your name is “clicked”?
    Yes, I knew about all of those other victims that were also killed and imprisoned. I have many books on world history.

  41. Barney said

    Maz, prove to us that the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn’t real.

    http://www.venganza.org/

  42. Boris said

    FLA,
    It’s difficult to prove a negative such that God does not exist. It’s easier to argue that atheism is simply a superior worldview than theism given that theism has been such a failure at living up to even its own expectations.

  43. F. L. A. said

    Thank you for responding with your thoughts.
    I know it is difficult, dare I say impossible.
    As for the second half of your response,I believe that is a matter of personal perception, Boris.

  44. carole said

    Boris-

    We who are truly changed by Jesus Christ are telling you first-hand that He is real. And you are telling us that He is not?

    Let me suggest this to you: four years ago I had the same view of God that you do. Just like you I thought it was crazy, impossible, whatever. But the more you dive into the world around you, through science, philosophy, art- etc., the more you learn that all of life is impossible and crazy. The complexity of a cell, the order of the universe, the natural laws. Your worldview would be somewhat justified if all was chaos. But the ORDER? All of this points to one revelation- that it is only through something beyond the scope of our understanding that all this came to be.

    Sometimes we read books and assume what is being said is true because it “makes sense” to us. Is it possible that we want to beleive something so much that we make it true? I used to think this of Christians. But when I approached the Bible, I did not want it to be true. In fact, I was terrified that it was true. You are changed in light of it, and some people do not want to be changed.

  45. bookert said

    Carole, this morning I had blueberry pancakes for breakfast. I experienced them first hand. They were real. And I was changed because my stomach is now pooching over my belt. You can take my word for it or you can check the dirty plate, or you can ask my son who watched (first hand) as I ate those pancakes, or you can x-ray my stomach. All will support my story. You have no such support.

    Your second statement is more interesting. Yes, we’re sentient – or seem to be – and there is order everywhere. Everything is always inventing new possibilities of itself, and this is ultimately a mystery, even to believers. What Boris is doing that you’re not doing – Boris is wrestling with the big questions. You have simply given up. You’re saying, It’s all designed, must be a Designer, must be God, must be Jesus. Many of us don’t admit to the first link in that undependable chain of “logic”. By conceding a Design, we’d of course concede a Designer. Order and design are not the same thing.

  46. Boris said

    Carol,
    Your main reasons for believing in God are: “The complexity of a cell, the order of the universe, the natural laws.”

    The first cells on Earth were not complex but rather simple cells with no DNA. You are looking at modern life after 4 billion years of evolution and using backward logic deciding cells must have always been as complex as they are today.

    The natural laws you speak of such as the Law of Gravity are man-made laws. When something falls to the ground just saying that it’s because of the Law of Gravity explains nothing. Einstein discussed how objects distort space and time but we really don’t know how and why gravity works the way it does. So we have a man-made Law of Gravity to describe what it does, but this hardly explains it.

    As far as any order in the universe, go out and look through a high-powered telescope for a few minutes and then see if you can still make that statement.

  47. BOZO Bozarth said

    Boris made the claim that there were many non-Christians killed during the holocaust by evangelical German soldiers. No one held him/her to task on that.

    I want documentation on this Boris. I can give you documentation that there were many Christians as well as Jews that were slaughtered by Hitler’s regime. I can also give you documentation that there were Christians helping Jews to escape – the documentary of Corrie Ten Boon is for starters.

    I’m sure Dr. Brown can also give documentation, he being a Jew from birth and now a believer in Christ.

    Yes, I’m calling your statement a bonafide lie. But, I’m just an evil creationist, what do I know.

    By the way, the KKK also claims to be a Christian organization. This thread is “Can we trust the Bible?”. I say yes and reading bible, I’d come to the conclusion that the Klan is no more Christian than the “Evil Bible” website is……… 😉

  48. Alex said

    Atheism has to be older than theism. Someone has to develop the idea of a deity. All that time before someone developed the idea of a deity, there were atheists. Now, we’re beginning to figure out the idea of God is a little crazy, and we’re becoming atheists again!

  49. John said

    Alex, in your own words, to you what does it mean for someone to be an Atheist?

  50. Maz said

    Boris # 38: When I said, ”prove to me that there is no God, and I will prove to you that there is,” I was really trying to make the point, that you could no more prove to me that there is no God than I could prove to you that there is. Actually that isn’t quite true, because there is a lot of proof of Diety in this world, a Designer, a Creator, it’s just that there are many people who are blinded in some way to it, as you are Boris.
    You have a lot of very negative emotions in what you say, almost anger and hatred….I just wonder where it comes from?
    God…and Christians like me, offer you love instead.
    I’d rather have the love than even give anger and hatred to someone I don’t even know….as you don’t know me, or anything about me…but that I am a Christian.
    Why Boris, are you so hostile to the idea that there is a God?

  51. F. L. A. said

    Mmmmmm, I am curious about that, Alex.
    People in this world have been spiritual since before they could be fully classified as absolutely “human”. Sooooo who are you thinking of? The lower animals that evolved into humanity? Can an animal be truly thought of as being an Atheist?

  52. F. L. A. said

    Welcome back Maz. We missed your input.

  53. Maz said

    F.L.A: Thanks….it’s nice to be missed….albeit my ”input”. 8)
    Had a great time….lots of peace. Now I’m back in the fray so to speak.

  54. F. L. A. said

    You better put on all your spiritual armor, have you not already.

  55. Alex said

    An atheist is a person who does not believe in any particular god, not someone who says there is no god, although an atheist could say that if they felt that way. I don’t.

    And before they were spiritual, they weren’t spiritual yet…

  56. Maz said

    F.L.A: A good soldier never takes it off!

  57. F. L. A. said

    How would you know Alex?
    Whyyyyyyy do you believe that this hypothetical primitive person does not believe in any particular God?
    Is it a personal choice?
    Is it because they are not yet advanced enough mentally to think about such things, being more preoccupied with survival?
    What the sciences of Archeology and Paleontology confirm is that spirituality rose up with humanity alongside the rise of intelligence and culture.
    Before that is anyones guess.

  58. Maz said

    The Bible tells us that before man or anything else existed…there was God. Man was created in His image, so we are first and foremost spiritual…then physical. God breathed into the physical man, a spirit of life. But if you don’t believe all that, then you’re right F.L.A, it is anyones guess.

  59. Alex said

    I guess its a little chicken/egg question.
    I’m right though. Atheism has always been here. Someone had to theorize theism.
    Lets take the first person. Say he did became a theist. He HAD to have been an atheist before he became a theist.

    Unless we were instantly created! Then I’ll just feel silly for thinking we can trust evidence and reason.

  60. Maz said

    Alex: ”I’m right though”. How do you know?

    And, God was (and is) Big enough and Powerful enough to create a man instantly in the beginning…..which He did because the Bible tells us He did.
    Have you got something that tells you that what you believe is right?

  61. F. L. A. said

    I seem to have forgotten why this argument was important[the eternal huge sharp-toothed grin].
    It is a chicken/egg type of a question Alex, but you seemed too confident about your answer, so I wanted you to try and elaborate on WHY you felt this to be so.

  62. Boris said

    Bozo,
    “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 [This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism. Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people worshiped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy. The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.]

    Maz is the typical Christian fundy who claims anyone who isn’t blinded to reality the way they are is the one who is blind. FYI Maz the Bible’s account of creation is poetry, not science or history. But since this account isn’t accurate that doesn’t make it just anyone’s guess about how the universe came about, as you say it is. Science doesn’t know everything but it knows a lot more than people think – especially creationists. There is no debate among scientists about the validity or usefulness of evolutionary theory because biologists simply could not do anything without their knowledge of evolution. Every time a creationist nut goes to a doctor they are admitting that they are willing toput their faith and trust in the theory of evolution because modern medicine would not be possible without it.

  63. Alex said

    I gave you the reason why I was right. Twice. This isn’t a question you really prove by archeological records. You don’t have to. Its simple logic. I am of course assuming that the universe wasn’t created six thousand years ago, which I have a great deal of archeological/scientific evidence for.

  64. Alex said

    And, I heard you phone in about the Evolution discussion Boris! It sounded like you did a headdesk there at the end of your call. I don’t blame you.

  65. Maz said

    Boris: Funny, but Jesus authenticated Genesis, and Paul authenticated that God created the world and all things in it, and in Exodus it speaks of God creating the world in 6 days and resting on the seventh, that is why we have a 7 day week. So, it certainly was NOT poetry.
    I am deffinitely a creationist……and possibly even a ”nut”! 8)

    Alex: ”I gave you the reason why I was right. Twice.” I must have missed it somewhere…..but logic is not a foundation to build your whole lifes beliefs on….I prefer something more solid…..the Rock, Who the Bible tells us is Jesus. No surer foundation for building a life upon. And what about after death?

  66. Alex said

    A really old book validates all your claims? Thats your problem. I can find out that maybe a black hole isn’t created by a supernova. Hell, say we find out that God IS in fact not a fairy tale. I don’t mind changing my view when I have enough evidence to support a claim. I just don’t see that in a musty old tome that is self-validating.

  67. Boris said

    Maz,
    Jesus and Paul authenticated the Old Testament? That’s about a circular an argument as there can be. Figures that exist only in the Pages of the Bible tell us that the Bible is true. What you are trying to do is prove the existence of Batman by citing the eyewitness testimony of Robin the Boy Wonder. What information from OUTSIDE the Bible is there that any of it even might be true? Poof, you have none.

    I cannot prove there is no God, no one can. But I can easily prove that the Judeo Christian God does not exist. Read below and perpend.

    People suffer. Animals
    suffer. If God, the creator, is omniscient, then he knew, at the time of creation, how the world would develop. He knew he was creating a world with suffering. If god is omnipotent and omniscient, he is also nasty. Hence, there are no omnipotent and omniscient, supremely benevolent beings. The counterclaim that we suffer because of our own actions is irrelevant; what counts is that God chose to create this world and no other, knowing that it would lead to suffering. The counterclaim that God has a plan of which our suffering is part=perhaps to disillusion us with the physical and make us turn to the spiritual – is irrelevant: that merely makes him a deity with a plan, who chose to create this world and no other, knowing it would lead to suffering. The counterclaim that evil is necessary if we are to have free will is irrelevant: for the decision to create free will means that God has a plan and that merely makes him a deity with a plan, who chose to create this world, and no there, knowing that it would lead to suffering. Hence, the conclusion stands.

  68. John said

    “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreampt of in your philosophy.”-Shakespeare, Horatio.

    “God is no respecter of persons”-Acts10:34,Bible

    “God is subtle but he is not malicious.”-Albert Einstein [This is inscribed over a fireplace at Fine Hall in Princeton University]

  69. Boris said

    “If your right eye offends you, pluck it out / If your right arm offends you, cut it off / And if your reason offends you, become a Christian.” Heinrich Heine (1797-1856)

    “A favored argument of theists is that atheists are not aware of everything there is to know about the cosmos… The flaw in this argument is that it can equally be applied to theists.” – John Pariury

    “Men are idolaters and want something to look at and kiss, or throw themselves down before; they always did, they always will; and if you don’t make it of wood, you must make it of words.” – Oliver Wendell Holmes

    “Islam and Christianity both have a sex fixation: Practitioners can’t get enough of it, even as they despise the thooght of it. Their self-inflicted contradictions drive them crazy, and so they drive us non-believers nuts trying to take away our dirty pictures and our evil websites… And the stuff they believe makes your ordinary witchdoctor look like Louis Pasteur or Jonas Salk. Submicroscopic homunculi running around inside a single cell, dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden…” – Nicolas von Hoffman

  70. Maz said

    Boris: If parents have children knowing that somewhere during their life they may face suffering, sickness, or tragedy in their life, it’s because they want children…to love and care for and see grow up and have their grandchildren…to love and enjoy…etc. etc. etc.
    Is God any different? You don’t stop having children because they may face these things….that’s life. And God made us in the same way…to love and be loved by us. It is man that has the free choice to love Him or reject Him as Father…..I guess you’ve made your mind up where you stand with God. It’s your choice…don’t blame God (who you say you don’t believe in!) when things aren’t perfect.

    There are many historians that wrote about Jesus who aren’t and weren’t in the Bible. Josephus for one…Justin Martyr for another…..Tertullian…Iranaeus…and others who authenticated the authenticator of the OT.

    ”Come to me and I will give you rest.” Jesus Christ.

  71. Boris said

    Maz,
    I haven’t chosen not to believe in God. I CANNOT believe there is a God based just on what people say about their various Gods. Other than that there isn’t any sign of any God whatsoever. Atheism isn’t a choice Maz, it’s something that comes naturally because we are all born as atheists.

    There are no FIRST CENTURY historians who wrote a single word about Jesus Christ. The “golden paragraph” in the works of Josephus is widely accepted even among some of the most conservative scholars as a forgery done by Church propagandist and liar Eusebius. Origen had reported a century earlier as did other Church leaders that there were no mentions of Jesus Christ in the works of Josephus or any other historians. Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonious and the rest of the people who supposedly wrote about Jesus all wrote in the second century. Philo however, lived in and around Jerusalem during the first half of the first century mentions not a word about Jesus Christ. There isn’t a shred of contemporary evidence to support Christian claims of a historical Jesus Christ.

  72. Maz said

    Boris: We are all born as sinners, but there comes a point in everyones life when they have to make a choice to believe there is a God or not…..and whether Jesus Christ is Who He claimed to be.

    There are signs of God but you just don’t see them.

    If there was an historian in the first century, no doubt you would have an answer why we should not believe what he wrote. Those who knew and met Jesus Christ wrote about Him, that should be enough, but because it is within the Bible you won’t accept it.

  73. Boris said

    Moderator!!! Moderator!!! Insults are not to be allowed on this blog or thread or so I thought. Maz just called me and everyone on the planet a born sinner! I’m highly offended at this comment, not so much for myself but he just insulted my wife, my kids, everyone I know or am related to besides criminalizing the entire human race. I don’t expect him to apologize because I know he won’t. I do expect him to be reprimanded by you and issued a warning that he should not make this insulting remark again. I’ll check back to see what you do here.

  74. Boris said

    Maz,
    Many people, billions in fact,have been and will be born and live their entire lives without ever hearing a single word about Jesus Christ. Those people will never make any decision about Jesus Christ one way or another. Two-thirds of the world does not believe in any deity. You live in a fundamentalist bubble totally unaware of the rest of the world and what it is doing, thinking and believing.

    If there are signs of God what exactly are they?

    No one knew and met Jesus. The Gospels never had any names attached to them until the third century and so to this day they are still anonymous. No one has a clue as to who might have written them. The fact that there are no first century mentions of Jesus is very telling and should not just be ignored.

  75. Maz is entitled to her beliefs, just like you are, Boris. She believes that everyone born into the world is a sinner. You do not. I’m sure she was offended by your many anti-Christian statements. Get a grip, Boris.

    Moderator (not Stu)

  76. Maz said

    Boris: You were obviously not aware that I am a woman. I was a sinner once too until I accepted Jesus Christ. Have you ever met anyone that hasn’t sinned?

  77. Boris said

    I mean one-third of the world does not believe in any deity. Two-thirds DO believe in a deity.

  78. Maz said

    Boris: Where do you get your figures from?

  79. Boris said

    Maz, the only sin is willful ignorance. I don’t care for your definition of sin because it only concerns believers. It has nothing to do with the real world whatsoever.

  80. Maz said

    Boris: Sin has everything to do with the real world, because this real world is full of sinners committing sin of one form or another. Don’t you listen to the news every day?
    What is murder, rape, theft or lying, in your eyes?

  81. Boris said

    Moderator the fact is that everyone is born into this world an atheist, not a sinner. The sin comes when a child’s parents infect their minds with archaic religious superstitions that have no basis in fact or reality. The parent in essence makes a criminal out of an innocent child. Now I have my own beliefs about what we should call these parents which I am entitled to but I’m NOT entitled say these things on this thread. No wonder your radio station is so opposed to things like “Fairness Doctrines” and “American Civil Liberties.” Christians will never cease doing everything they can to silence their critics.

  82. Boris said

    Maz,
    To Christians the greatest sin is unbelief. Believers think that they are special and are forgiven because they believe a bunch of trumped up dogma and doctrine. These things you speak of are crimes and FYI countries that are the least religious like Japan and Sweden for example also have the lowest crime rates. Our overly religious nation has the highest crime rate in the civilized world. In fact, statistics prove that the more religious a nation is the more likely it will have a higher crime rate. Religion has no answers to crime or anything else. Only when most of the world has adopted a scientific humanistic worldview will most crime disappear.

  83. That’s the beauty of this site, Boris. Everyone is entitled to post their own beliefs and debate them vigorously with others. You believe one thing. Maz believes another. It’s a debate. Nobody is trying to silence you. Everyone on here has been offended by someone else at some point. As long as the people commenting on here don’t attack someone personally, make threats, use profanity, etc…..we’ll allow it. Hope this is making sense, Boris. It’s not our wish to ban non-Christians from the site. On the contrary, we encourage debate and discussion. We have Wiccans on here that have been valued contributors for some time. We also have Atheists, Mormons and people of many other faiths who have contributed respectfully. That’s all we ask.

    Moderator (not Stu)

  84. Maz said

    Boris: Yes, unbelief is a sin. When Jesus Christ has done all He possibly can to reveal His Father God to you and you choose not to even want to believe but actually argue against the truth, that is sin.
    Our laws actually are based on the Ten Commandments, otherwise we wouldn’t have them atall.
    And what about Islamic countries….very religious…have they got a high crime rate?

  85. Boris said

    Moderator
    I’m not really angry, I’m sort of tugging your chain. I think you know this too. I notice you always say you are not Stu and most of the negative comments I see here, some fairly brutal, are directed at him. What’s up with that? Why is Stu so unpopular with some people? I got on this site because I listen to Chuck Crismier’s show. I guess I’ll have to see what Stu is doing on the radio.

  86. Yeah, I understood. I always mention that I’m “not Stu” just to be sure that people understand that while Stu does, in fact, read the comments…he simply does not have the time to Moderate and filter out the filth (which we get tons of).

    Stu is unpopular with some people because he stands up strongly for what he believes and is very candid and outspoken about it. Anytime you do that you’re sure to rub some people the wrong way.

    For what it’s worth coming from me, Stu is good people. He genuinely cares for others and would give you the shirt off his back, whether you’re a Christian, or not.

    Moderator (not Stu)

  87. Boris said

    Maz said: Boris: Yes, unbelief is a sin. When Jesus Christ has done all He possibly can to reveal His Father God to you and you choose not to even want to believe but actually argue against the truth, that is sin.

    Boris says: I don’t WANT to believe anything in particular and people should not believe whatever they want to. Science is our best defense against believing what we want to. You argue against that truth Maz.

    Our laws actually are based on the
    Ten Commandments, otherwise we wouldn’t have them atall.

    Boris says: Our laws are NOT based on the Ten Commandments and our founders were deists not Christians. They were pretty much all in agreement with Thomas Paine whose book “The Age of Reason” thoroughly debunked Christianity and the Bible.
    The Ten Commandments contain only three commandments about actual crimes and seven about the proper worship of a desert deity named Yahweh. These three commandments against murder, stealing and adultery were part of every civilization there has ever been including those that existed before any Jewish people did. I doubt you could even tell me what all Ten Commandments were without looking them up.
    And what about Islamic countries….very religious…have they got a high crime rate?

  88. Maz said

    Boris: ”I don’t WANT to believe anything in particular…” but you DO believe something in particular…..in the fact that there is no God….that is a belief. You also believe in evolution.

    ”Science is our best defense against believing what we want to.”
    But science is the reason you want to believe in evolution.

    I don’t argue against the truth, I argue for it. You are the one arguing against the truth.

    I am not even American but I know that your country was founded on Christian principals and beliefs. You have founding fathers that believed in the Bible….what about ‘One God under heaven’….and on your money, ‘In God we trust’.

    So what about the Islamic countries? You are the one that brought up the issue about crime rates. What about theirs?

  89. Boris said

    Not believing something is NOT a belief, it’s the opposite, a lack of belief. People don’t “believe” in evolution nor can I imagine why they would want to. Claiming not to believe in evolution is no different than claiming not to believe in Geometry. Either you understand evolution or you don’t. If you understand it then you can’t help but accept it. If you don’t then you won’t. It’s that simple.

    I’d like you to name any of our founders or first presidents who were Christians. FYI “In God We Trust” was not on our money until 1954. Our founders had nothing to do with that motto. Where does “one God under heaven” appear in any of our founding papers? Where do you get your American history? From other Christians?

  90. Maz said

    Boris: A lack of belief would imply that you do not believe in anything. Everyone has beliefs, whether they believe something is right or wrong. I believe evolution is wrong and Creation is right. You believe that Creation is wrong and that God does not exist and that evolution is right.
    Believing in God is somewhat different in believing in a theory. You can put your trust in God in a way you cannot put trust in a theory. God is the Supreme Being of the Universe. Evolution is just something that people believed happened in the distant past and is still supposedly happening now. I guess in that sense you can’t ”believe” in evolution the way you do in God.

    ”If you understand it (evolution) then you can’t help but accept it.”
    Understanding something does not make someone accept it.
    I understand how Satan works in this world but I don’t accept him.
    And I don’t understand electricity but I accept that it works.
    This is not a hard and fast ruling.

  91. Maz said

    Boris: To elaborate on what I said about Satan. I meant I understand how Satan works, and I believe he exists, but I do not accept him as I accept the truth. Maybe not a good example but do you get my drift?

    I any case, evolution doesn’t work the way evolutionists believe it did or does.

  92. Boris said

    Maz,
    You have no evidence that Satan exists yet you claim you know he does and not only that what he does. There is no scientific evidence, nor has there ever been nor will there ever be against evolution. You don’t WANT evolution to work the way it does and so you will defiantly say that it doesn’t. FYI a theory is not a guess about anything. A theory is an explanation of known facts. You don’t even have a theory about Satan or God because there are no know facts about either. All EDUCATED guess tell us that God, demons, angels, Satan, heaven, hell are all just fantasies of the ignorant.

  93. Boris said

    Maz,
    You are so hypocritical. Science works for everyone whether they believe in it or not. That cannot be said for religion. Every time you go to a doctor you are putting your faith in the doctor’s knowledge of just how evolution by natural selection works and in particular that he’ll know just how to deal with your malady because of this knowledge. Without evolutionary biology modern medicine would not exist and our average life expectancy would be as it was before the discovery of evolution – about half of what it is now. In fact it is very likely that you would not even be alive today if we still didn’t understand how evolution actually does work. The most important people in the world for the last 150 years have been and will continue to be evolutionary biologists most of whom work in obscurity to make the world a better, healthier and safer place for ill-informed ingrates such as yourself.

  94. Maz said

    Boris: Who made the LAWS of science i.e: Physics, in the first place? Laws are not haphazard, they are ordered, and follow a predictable patern. How did these laws come out of the chaos of the so-called Big Bang? Which apparently came out of nothing, so our intelligent scientists tell us.
    Ignorant I am not, hypocritical I am not, an ingrate I am not, I just believe something different from you. Why, I wonder, are you SO intent on being verbally abusive and venomous in your attitude towards those who do?

    FYI: There are Christian doctors who believe in God and not evolution.

  95. Boris said

    Maz,
    FYI the laws of physics are man-made laws such as the Law of Gravity. Just saying things fall or attract because of the law of gravity explains nothing but rather simply describes how objects behave. The universes did not come out of nothing. The mass-energy the universe is made of always existed just in a different form than it is now. You cannot name one doctor who claims not to believe in evolution. That claim would make that person a witch doctor, not an MD. YOUR doctor believes in evolution but I bet you’re not honest enough to admit that.

  96. Maz said

    With respect Boris: Man did not create the laws of physics. If God didn’t create them (as you believe) then how can man possibly create the interactions of molecules and everything that ‘goes’ in the Universe? That really is a nonsensical comment.

    Obviously you havn’t heard or read what some scientists have said about the Universe coming from nothing.
    And what form did this mass-energy take then? Who said that?

    If I gave you a list of a hundred doctors that believe in God you wouldn’t believe it, so what is the point? And witchdoctors do not believe in the Christian God.

    I’m honest enough to say that I don’t actually know what my doctor believes, we have never had an indepth conversation about religion or God.

    I feel sometimes as if you are saying things just for arguments sake. Do you think about what you are going to say before you say it?

  97. Maz said

    Boris: Actually I am reading a book at the moment by a Christian doctor. His name is Dr. Brad Burke. Also his book is supported by another doctor, Dr. William J, Mcrae, he is President Emeritus, Tyndale University College and Seminary. The President is Dr. Brian C. Stiller. All are Christians.
    Care to comment?

  98. Maz said

    Boris: I have another book which I’v had for some years now, about a man who died and had an experience of Heaven and came back to tell about it. His name, Dr. Richard E. Eby, D.O., D.Sc (Hon), D.Ed (Hon), F.A.C.O.O.G.
    He was a certified obstetrician and gynecologist who came to California in 1933 to study and later to teach at the College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons….and so on…
    No doubt you would not agree with any ‘Heavenly’ experiences either.

  99. Maz said

    Boris: There is also the CMF, Christian Medical Fellowship which was founded in 1949 and has over 4,500 British doctor members in all branches of medicine. There are also links to other similar interdenominational bodies worldwide with thousands of Christian doctors as memebrs.

  100. Maz said

    Actually Boris, you may like to punch in ‘Christian doctors in medicine’ on your computer.

  101. Maz said

    Boris, where are you? Have you nothing to say here?

  102. Maz said

    Boris:
    ”The universes did not come out of nothing. The mass-energy the universe is made of always existed just in a different form than it is now.” #95.

    You still havn’t told me what form this mass-energy took.

  103. Boris said

    Maz says: Also his book is supported by another doctor, Dr. William J, Mcrae, he is President Emeritus, Tyndale University College and Seminary. The President is Dr. Brian C. Stiller. All are Christians.
    Care to comment?

    Boris says: Why bother? The guy’s from a SEMINARY. That isn’t exactly a medical college. But it does mean that this person has a religious agenda and should be treated with skepticism.

    Maz said: With respect Boris: Man did not create the laws of physics. If God didn’t create them (as you believe) then how can man possibly create the interactions of molecules and everything that ‘goes’ in the Universe? That really is a nonsensical comment.

    Boris says: Simply defined, a scientific or physical law is a human description of how the universe consistently behaves. For example, Isaac Newton, after studying the behavior of celestial bodies, proposed his law of universal gravitation, detailing and predicting, with mathematical precision, the orbits of the nearby planets. Gregor Mendel, breeding various species of plant life, established the framework for a law of genetic inheritance, predicting with accuracy the reproductive results of crossbreeding. Both these laws, Newton’s and Mendel’s, were expanded and refined by later scientists, whose experimental observations were more precise and informed. The important point here is that scientific or physical laws are human descriptions, based on human observations and are therefore subject to future revision.

    Ignoring this definition, creationists often claim that the laws of physics govern the behavior of the universe – that the law of gravity, for example, cause object to fall earthward, or that the laws of chemistry control molecular interaction. Such a claim – that the physical laws govern the physical universe – reflects a fundamental misperception of science among the creationists.

    Creationists loathe to admit that physical laws are human in origin. Instead, creationists believe that the laws of physics exist independently of man and therefore require a “Lawgiver,” a Divine Power Who, through these laws “governs” the behavior of the universe. To recognize that mere scientists are the “lawgivers” is not to suggest, however, that the behavior of the physical universe does not have underlying casual antecedents. The entire purpose of science is to discover and understand the regularities and causal relationships at work throughout the universe.

    But, by believing that the laws of physics CAUSE the behavior of the universe, creationists overlook the need for pursuing genuine causal explanations. For example, if I ask why a rock thrown skyward soon falls back to Earth, it would be meaningless to respond, “It’s the law of gravity.” “Gravity” or “the law of gravity” is simply the name and description we assign to the observed phenomenon. The true, underlying reason why all objects in the universe attract each other is, to this day, a baffling enigma. True, Einstein showed that massive objects distort space-time and produce gravitational effects. But why do massive objects distort space-time? Such questions are still unanswered, and are by no means addressed by saying “It’s just the law of gravitation.” A physical law, then, is a man-made description, rather than a causal explanation, of how the universe consistently behaves.

    Maz said: Obviously you havn’t heard or read what some scientists have said about the Universe coming from nothing. And what form did this mass-energy take then? Who said that?

    Boris says: The zero-state theory says that the universe as a whole may have a sum total of zero energy. This is part of vacuum fluctuation physics, an esoteric field of study, but the important thing to remember here is that, once again, the universe may be understood and explained through natural science, rather than supernatural mysticism.

    Maz says: There are also links to other similar interdenominational bodies worldwide with thousands of Christian doctors as memebrs.

    Boris says: Who cares? I went to a Christian school and there were Christian doctors doing research there. Guess what they were studying. Biological evolution and not to disprove it but to USE it. I doubt one of these doctors you’re talking about is a young earth creationist.

    Really people, I didn’t get on this blog to give argue about evolution with people who can’t even define evolution. Nor did I get on here to give science lessons to the scientifically illiterate. I got my science education not from the public school system but from a good Christian college that has been around since before the Civil War. Too bad so many of you didn’t do the same.

  104. Boris said

    The top of this thread says “can we trust the Bible?” After many posts it has veered off the subject. Also I noticed it says that this J.P. Holding is an Internet apologist but shows some literature by him which makes him out to be a Christian apologist. Perhaps this Mr. Holding apologizes on the Internet but that would make him a Christian apologist ON the Internet, not FOR the Internet. I only point this out because I think Al Gore invented Internet apologetics and I don’t think this has anything to do with what J.P. Holding does.

  105. Boris said

    Sorry. I’m late and it’s tired.

  106. Maz said

    Boris: Comment? It speaks for itself.

    ‘Human description’ or not, it is he way God made it. We had nothing to do with the laws of physics, they were there in the beginning before we were. Tell me, hoe did man make the laws of physics? How did he make DNA work before he even knew it existed. You are talking foolishly.

    One wonders why you DID come on here Boris. Was it just to pull Christianity to pieces? Was it to attack anothers beliefs? Was it to insult and ridicule anothers faith? Was it to verbally abuse God, His Son Jesus, and the Bible? I think you have done all these things and more.

    Boris says: ”Who cares?”………….God does!

    But as sad as it is I have decided to follow your suggestion on the ‘God and Darwin’ blog, and from now on……..you do not exist.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

 
%d bloggers like this: