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Do you think murderers can be forgiven and Baptized?

Posted by truthtalklive on July 4, 2008

On today’s show Stu talks to The pastor who baptised Jeffery Dahmer. Please leave all your comments and have a happy fourth of July!

Related Articles:
http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/dahmer.htm
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/203/story_20399_1.html
http://www.bible.ca/s-Dahmer.htm

 

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19 Responses to “Do you think murderers can be forgiven and Baptized?”

  1. jAsOn said

    Didn’t get to listen to any of the show but, Christ said in Matt. 5:”21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”

    And Saul of Tarsus was forgiven.

    So I think the answer to the question of this thread is, yes.

  2. Maz said

    Even David was forgiven by God, before Christ came and died…also Moses.

  3. ADB said

    YES, where is murder listed as an unpardonable sin? Now give us a difficult question.

  4. killa said

    The Bible says we all nailed Christ to the cross with our sin. The Bible is also clear that He was innocent and sinless. Thereby, we have all murdered at least one person – Jesus Christ.

    Marvelous grace of our matchless Lord. Grace, greater than all our sin!!

    Let me ask a “difficult” question: If a Christian murders someone for some reason, and that Christian is himself struck by a car and killed while trying to flee the scene. Will that Christian get into heaven? In light of “no murderer shall enter the Kingdom”, what is your answer and why?

  5. ADB said

    Killa,

    You asked a good question, which is I suppose the reason why lots of folks say that someone who commits suicide cannot enter Heaven. If I could rephrase your question, could we also say that one particular sin breaks a relationship with Jesus Christ? I think not. Your scenario could have also been stated like this- someone on death bed gets into an argument with a loved, says “I hate you!” and then dies. Or a Christian takes office supplies from work and has a massive heart attack walking out to the car. To me, our standing in Christ must be stronger than one sinful act.

    Best Wishes

  6. jAsOn said

    We have to remember that we are justified to God by Christ’s righteousness, and not our ability to perfectly repent. That is why, when a believer dies, God can say, “you are not a murderer”, because He sees Christ instead of us…and we would all agree that Christ was not a murderer.

  7. ADB said

    Precisely, Jason. It’s all about grace.

  8. jAsOn said

    Amen!

    Pertinent comments by the way.

  9. killa said

    Great answers guys. It is all of Christ and His righteousness. If we ever look to self, we will fail miserably. God does not want our righteousness, yet He demands that we all be righteous before Him.

    Our delima is we are all unrighteous.
    His answer is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us by faith.

    Sadly, there are so many confused individuals that believe we are saved by our obedience and kept saved by our obedience. But they forget that we all fall short of God’s standard of perfection. Even if we fail only once, that disqualifies us from being in fellowship with Him.

    The sin of Adam broke man’s fellowship with God.
    The sinlessness of Christ reconciled God to man – now the Spirit beseeches men “be reconciled to God.”

    Our relationship to God, our fellowship with God is secure because of Jesus Christ. Hallelujah to the Lamb that was slain, Who alone is worthy to be praised.

  10. jAsOn said

    AMEN Brother, preach it!

  11. F. L. A. said

    What KIND of murderers?
    The “I caught a man molesting/raping my little child and murdered him in the heat of passion” murderer?
    Or the 16th century Sawney Bean Clan, or early 20th century Albert Fish type of murderer? If you are not familiar with my examples then I recommend that you study up on these people, as they were monsters by every definition of the word, more so than I could ever be.

  12. Zerxil said

    11.)

    The story appears in The Newgate Calendar, a crime catalogue of the notorious Newgate Prison in London. While historians tend to believe that Sawney Bean never existed, his story has passed into legend and is part of the Edinburgh tourism industry.

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    the story is there too

    people (and I use that term loosely) like albert fish & Peter Kudzinowski should be put down as the monsters they are.

    FLA do you kill just for pleasure or food.

  13. F. L. A. said

    Yes……”people”, by the most liberal definition of the word.

    Both, Zerxil.I kill for food mainly, but it’s also pleasurable.
    Consuming life is one of my greatest hobbies.I am like a great shark of the land and trees, marching through the environment with a hunger that can never be fully satisfied.

  14. ADB said

    Those are pretty horrific examples. F.L.A. your beliefs and mine in the realm of spirituality are of course different. As a Christian I believe that even these people can be forgiven by God if they repent and believe the Gospel. Just for clarification, such repentance eliminates any eternal punishment, but it does not have anything to do with the state trying and incarcerating and/or executing them.

  15. John said

    F. L. A. has a fondness for the horrific.
    ADB, if such horrible people as those named could still get into Christian Heaven, it seems almost as if this would take something away from the Christian Hell as a place of justifiable punishment.[?] I understand the idea that your God is all loving and forgiving, but it almost seems too much to allow such people into such a place as Heaven. They probably would never really repent. Albert Fish was a “Christian” religious fanatic, you know.
    Perhaps I am simply confused, hmmmm?

  16. jAsOn said

    Hi John,

    I think you may have some misunderstanding as to Christian redemption. The bible actually teaches that God is just in punishing just for the sin of unbelief. Granted, other sins (from lying to murder) are a consequence of unbelief. If a person such as Fish or the others actually ended up repenting and eventually attaining eternal life, it is not a result of a changed life on their part. The only reason one repents is if their hearts are changed by the Spirit of God, and thus they attain eternal life because they are considered just by God on account of Christ’s righteousness. So, just as we are counted unjust in God’s sight because of the imputed guilt of Adam, we (if we believe and repent) can be counted righteous in God’s sight because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Also, repentance is not a one time thing, but the often recognition of one’s personal unholiness before God, and His merciful grace of the cross of Christ who purchased life for all those who believe. We would have to agree that, if these men persisted in their heinous acts and unbelief, then all evidence points to the fact that they were not redeemed.

  17. Anon said

    You beat me to it Jason with what you said. You’ve pretty well summed up traditional orthodox position. I’d like to add a couple of points. It is also good to consider that God’s desire is that sinners repent. Twice in Luke 15 Jesus says that there is joy in heaven over every sinner that repents. The heinous murderer and the person who sneaks office supplies are both just as guilty before God. When one comes to faith in Christ God pardons the sin, however small or large. Thus Christ’s righteousness is imputed to the person. We might say that this initial step (we Christians call it justification) is what God does for a person. It’s a judicial declaration of “not guilty” even though we are guilty. What I should add, however, is that God begins a work in the person to actually change him/her, so that not only is the person forgiven, but is also changed. We Christians call this “sanctification.” No true inner change comes by a person’s own will or effort, but true repentance is by the grace of God.

    The question you asked John is a very good one, though. I suppose that it is one of more common questions folks might have. Because people who have come to faith and repentance are, in Jesus words new creations, I have no problem with murderers being in heaven. In reality, the person who was the murderer is no more. This is the big distinction between orthodox Christianity and universalists. The universalist essentially takes the position everybody is welcomed into the Kingdom regardless of any faith or repentance. The idea of an unrepentant Stalin, Hitler, Fish, Dahmer, etc. being in heaven is ludicrous to me, and is an affront to any concept of justice with God in my opinion.

    I hope this helps.

  18. ADB said

    The above stole all my thunder!

    Good question, John.

  19. John said

    Well, that’s why I ask these things[toothy grin].
    Thank you folks.

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