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Is Revival really happening in America today?

Posted by truthtalklive on June 23, 2008

On today’s show our guest host will be Dr. Michael Brown with ICN Ministries. Dr. Michael L. Brown is founder and president of ICN Ministries, which is devoted to taking the message of repentance and revival to Israel, the Church, and the Nations. He met the Lord in 1971 as a sixteen year-old, heroin-shooting, LSD-using Jewish rock drummer. Since then, he has preached throughout America and around the world, and he is the author of twenty books, some of which have been translated into more than a dozen languages. He is committed to helping raise up a holy band of consecrated believers who will spark a spiritual, moral, and cultural revolution in the land. For more information please visit www.revolutionnow.org. As always thanks for listening to Truth Talk Live.

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172 Responses to “Is Revival really happening in America today?”

  1. writetools said

    Yes revival is happening… to those that are willing to allow God to move in their hearts, lives, churches… revival is often messy, scary, outside of the comfort zone of those in the middle of it and merely observing. It’s to bad we fallen imperfect Christians get in the way of God’s perfect outpouring… but I will take it! I pray for it…I desire it…Lord make us ready for it.

  2. ADB said

    Did not get to hear the show today, but in response to the general topic, I’m skeptical that a genuine revival is happening currently. I’d love to see it, and pray for it, but I simply don’t see the evidence for it. I heard of a survey today of 35,000 adults in which the vast majority, even a majority of evangelical Christians believe that there are many ways to salvation. Yes, I do admit to being narrow minded on this issue. The vast majority believe in heaven but do not believe in hell, seems to me that its logically inconsistent to have one without the other unless you’re a universalist. This along with the rather sad state of scriptural knowledge, and knowledge of how to use and apply scripture among many Christians (my own denomination as well), does not give me much encouragement.

    I have heard of the events in Lakeland, Florida recently, and even talked to someone who had been there, but I’ve read pretty scathing criticisms of it within the Christian community.

    Maybe somebody can give me so evidence to change my mind on this one.

    The curmudgeonly pastor

  3. H-Hunter said

    This whole “revival” in Florida is a sham, Stew, you’ve got to start choosing better guests or I’m out of here, this guy was so all over the board, I had to turn it off. Everybody is falling for this scam, what has this guy said that is Biblical, nothing. It’s of the devil, no doubt. Yes, God does heal, but only for His Glory and in His timing. People, run from this heresy!!!!

    Todd Bentley and the “healing revival” in Florida are sweeping like wildfire across the landscape of our churches. Looking into this has raised a number of concerns that I want to share. As someone familiar with the New Age and formerly active in the occult, references to spirit guides, mysticism, astral projection and other manifestations catch my attention. I’ll be the first to admit there may well be miracles and signs happening there. However, does this necessarily mean it’s of God? As a practicing witch I actively worked with the supernatural and made things happen. In scripture we see that Pharaoh’s sorcerers, Simon the Magician, and the girl with a spirit of divination were able to do such things. We as Christians are called to “test the spirits” behind all things by the Word of God. Below is a collection of video clips and articles related to the “Florida Revival.” Review this material carefully and prayerfully; asking God for discernment and wisdom. We must also pray that Bentley and those involved will repent and that our brothers and sisters who may be caught up in this will have their eyes opened to the truth of Scripture.

    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1John 4:1, ESV)

    For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. (Matthew 24:24, ESV)

    What genuine revival looks like.
    In contrast to Lakeland Florida, click here and take a look at what genuine revival looks like with what is happening in China.

    What genuine revival does not look like.
    If you want a summary of the whole letter below, you can click this link to read the article there and also watch this video that shows what happens back stage at the “revival” in Florida — crawling and rolling around, hysterical laughter, convulsions, Todd Bentley tackling people to the ground … in other words, chaos.)

    “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.” (Matthew 7:15-23, ESV)

    Examining the Fruit

    False Healing or False Prophet
    Read this article about a man whose friend (a pastor) was seeking healing from chronic bone cancer. He went to Florida for a healing on May 18, 2008. Todd Bentley proclaimed that he was healed and yet he died a week later.

    But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart, “How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?” — when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22, ESV)

    Brutality & Violence
    In this video, Todd Bentley proudly talks about kicking an old lady in the face, along with punching, leg dropping and choking people during his services.

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23a, ESV)

    Some supporters have tried to argue that Smith Wigglesworth also punched someone in the stomach to heal them of cancer. However, a look at his book Apostle of Faith will show that Wigglesworth and Bentley are not operating in the same spirit or manner at all.

    For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. (2 Timothy 3:2-4, ESV)

    Mysticism and Angelic Manifestations
    Angelic Hosts is an article written by Todd Bentley in 2003 detailing some of the history behind this movement with special reference to an “angel” named Emma. Click here to read an article that reveals the disturbing circumstances behind Bentley’s introduction to Emma. Next read this article that examines it even further.

    Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind. (Colossians 2:18, ESV)

    Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, (1Timothy 4:1, ESV)

    In one God TV broadcast from Lakeland Florida, a person on the platform says – “The anointing, I used to feel it in my hand, now I feel it in my spine – it’s weird!” The occult Kundalini spirit is reported by its devotees to reside in the spine. As seen in this article, there are many similarities between Kundalini manifestations and what is happening in Florida. This should raise some flags. Scripture calls us to “test the spirits” since counterfeit spirits could mimic the Holy Spirit.

    In this video, Bob Jones and Todd Bentley speak about being caught up in the third heaven while they sat in a restaurant. During their trip to heaven, they both smell vanilla (imagine that in a restaurant). Bentley also talks about an “angel of light” ministering to the viewer.

    For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15, ESV)

    Body Art
    People might assume that Todd Bentley’s extensive tattoos and piercings came from before he was a Christian. However, the truth is they are a fairly recent thing. As seen in this video, Bentley is talking in Toronto about an encounter with another “angel” without the tattoos and piercings. Despite what some people may say, the Bible does not expressly speak against body art – tattoos or piercing – as we know it today (see this article). Some may even point out that when a person sees a preacher or Christian speaker with tattoos, they may be lead to think “I can trust this man” or “they can relate to me.” This would be OK if the individual had genuinely “been there and done that.” However, as we see Bentley’s body art came afterwards. Why the change? Perhaps it’s an effort to be more appealing to a younger or more worldly crowd. While the Bible doesn’t expressly speak against the body art itself, it does say we are to examine the intentions of our heart. Can a professing Christian really get tattoos and piercings to this degree that aren’t either an expression of rebellion, pride, or otherwise drawing attention to self? I’ve heard Bentley says he just wants to be natural. Yet, as someone else pointed out, Scripture says the natural man and cannot know the things of God (1 Cor 2:14).

    And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God. (Luke 16:15, ESV)

    Prosperity Teaching
    A quote from Todd Bentley’s Angelic Hosts (linked to above): “I was at another meeting in Atlanta when my wife, Shonnah, saw two financial angels walk into the service and pour oil out on the pastor. Shonnah then knew there was financial breakthrough coming. That night two people wrote the pastor cheques for $16,000 and $17,000 and others also wrote cheques to Fresh Fire for thousands of dollars, which we used for missions to the nations. In addition, many people experienced great financial blessing as well. The day after this angelic visitation one guy had millions of dollars released to him-he had been waiting for about 10 years for this breakthrough. All this financial release came because my wife saw two financial angels walk up and stand on the platform. Can you imagine? We need to pray for the Father to give us financial angels for our lives, our church and region. With this angelic assistance, we will prevail and overcome the warfare trying to hold back our financial breakthrough. Some of you don’t know how to use the angels in intercession like this. You don’t even know whether it’s OK or not.”

    Another quote from Bentley: “Father, give me the angels in heaven right now that are assigned to get me money and wealth. And let those angels be released on my behalf. Let them go into the four corners of the earth and gather me money. Let them gather my partners.”

    “No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.” (Luke 16:13, ESV)

    One can’t help but wonder if the ragged Pastors in the China video above should be asking for wealth instead of living so simply while they plant hundreds of churches and led tens of thousands to Christ.

    Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated– of whom the world was not worthy — wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. (Hebrews 11:35a-38, ESV)

    Manifestations of Jesus
    Todd Bentley speaks in this clip of a pink rainbow coming from Jesus which is “love and emotions.” (Maybe he should try reading Revelation 1.) He then tells the viewer that Jesus wants to visit us all personally.

    …for we walk by faith, not by sight. (2 Corinthians 5:7, ESV)

    Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29, ESV)

    Not About Jesus
    Some people may argue that Todd Bentley gives glory to Jesus, so how can this be wrong? Bentley clearly says in this video that the church must now believe in “The Angel” and the supernatural, because the church already believes in Jesus. Even when he shouts “Jesus” a hundred times from the platform, that doesn’t mean he is pointing to the Jesus Christ of the Bible or proclaiming the biblical gospel and bringing him glory. You can add Jesus to a ministry and say it’s for his glory, but unless the words and deeds being attributed to his name are in line with scripture it is not giving glory to Jesus. Remember, after all, that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have a Jesus, Mormonism has a Jesus, the New Age has a Jesus, even Islam has a Jesus. Also, consider the girl possessed by a spirit of divination in Acts 16:16-17. She seemed to be giving glory to God, however, Paul rebuked the spirit within her. One interesting fact worth noting is that she wasn’t proclaiming “the” way to salvation but actually in the original greek “a” way to salvation.

    For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. (2 Corinthians 11:4, ESV)

    I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel– not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-9, ESV)

    Possessed by Demons?
    In this video he says that supposedly after getting saved had 25 demons come out of him while attending a Catholic Mass. Can light and darkness dwell together? How can one indwelt by the Holy Spirit (God himself) also be the housing place for demons?

    Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. (1John 4:4, ESV)

    We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18, ESV)

    Chaos and Disorder
    The Bible clearly teaches that there should be order in our churches. Obviously, different cultures may have different expressions and definitions of order. However, the fits of people attending the revival as seen in this video (and further bizarre antics in this video) should be considered disorderly for even the most liberal of Christians. They may put some soft Christian music behind it and dress it up a bit, but step back and look at what’s really going on – crawling and rolling around, hysterical laughter, convulsions. Lest we forget, we’re admonished to practice self-control several times throughout the New Testament and it is specifically listed as one of the Fruits of the Spirit.

    But all things should be done decently and in order. (1 Corinthians 14:40, ESV)

    But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. (1 Thessalonians 5:8, ESV)

    Finally My Brothers (and Sisters)

    Again, I ask that you review this material carefully and prayerfully; asking God for discernment and wisdom. Pray also that Todd Bentley and those involved will repent. Pray that our brothers and sisters who may be caught up in this will have their eyes opened to the truth of Scripture. Pray that Jesus would receive the glory he is due!

    Feel free to forward this email to anyone you wish.

    For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. (2 Timothy 4:3-5, ESV)

  4. John said

    Hello H. Hunter.
    I was just curious and was wondering, what kind of a witch were you before you became a Christian? I have a keen interest in such matters. If discussing this brings up painful memories and you do not wish to discuss such matters, I understand.

  5. H-Hunter said

    John, the main part of my post is from a friend, he put that together and I just posted it. The first paragraph was mine, the rest, his.

  6. John said

    Oh….well, that does change things a bit[smile].

  7. H-Hunter said

    Yes, the links don’t work if you want the e-mail, just e-mail me at raideragent@gmail.com

  8. H-Hunter,

    I was a bit baffled by your post in which you mentioned how I (today’s host) was all over the place with today’s topic about revival. I spent almost the whole show asking questions to generate a healthy discussion, taking both sides of the issue to argue various points, and then ended with sure fire ways to recognize whether a move is genuinely from God or not, based on the principles deduced by Jonathan Edwards. Which of those principles did you differ with?

    I’d be quite curious to know.

    You might also want to take the time to listen to my broadcast from this past Saturday on the Junk Food Gospel at: http://lineoffireradio.wordpress.com/posts/, based on the warnings of 2 Tim 4.

    Dr. Brown

  9. H-Hunter said

    Didn’t hear the whole thing, do you think that what is happening in Florida with Todd Bentley the real thing? Or, what about Rodney Howard Brown, Patricia King, Randy Clark, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn? These guys are all on the same page. If so, I’d like Scriptures to back it up.

  10. Maz said

    I have seen some of the You-tube video clips and have heard some of the anit-Todd criticism. But I have also watched to see for myself what this man and this Revival is all about. I am still out for the verdict but I heard Todd preach the gospel like I’v not heard it preached from the pulpit in quite some time. I mean, he preached Jesus! If the devil is preaching Jesus, then he has really changed his tactics. Yes, I know he will come as an angel of light, I know there are going to be false Christs and false prophets, (and Todd has expressly spoken against any rumours going round that he is some kind of second coming of Christ! He certainlu downplays himself, the man) I know that there will be lying signs and wonders in the Last Days, but let us not just be aware of these but aware that God sends Revival too! We must not throw the preverbial baby out with the bath water! Be watchful, be prayerful, but don’t judge until you have seen and heard BOTH sides.

    If I was to judge simply on what people are telling me and the clips of Todd on U-tube, I would probably agree with the skeptics and criticisers, in fact I was at first…..but I have seen him preaching Jesus, lifting up Jesus, glorifying Jesus, testifying to what Jesus has done in his life. They worship JESUS.
    I have felt nothing evil coming from him or the meetings. I actually didn’t enjoy one meeting as much as I did the first I saw, they are all different, but Jesus is first and foremost as far as I can see. All the falling over, the ‘violence’ (havn’t seen that, but how was the chinese lady afterwards?? Did she have to go to hospital with a broken jaw or something?? No one has said). The scripture does say that Gods ways ae above our ways…supposing….

    DON’T call it of the devil until you REALLY KNOW, from the Holy Spirit Himself, or you could end up blaspheming God. Be careful by all means, but be in prayer always, and don’t miss the true moving of God. Maybe that’s what the devil is trying to do. Confuse people?
    Some ‘Revivals’ may not be of God, but as they say ”The Truth is out there somewhere”, be sure you are in on what GOD is doing, I certainly want to be.

  11. ADB said

    I may have inadvertantly started the whole Todd Bently thing. I did not hear the show so I don’t know if Bentley was referred to or not. I mentioned him in my post simply because the events in Lakeland are an example of what some might say is a revival in America.

  12. Maz said

    ADB: There certainly seems to be a lot of people testifying to being healed all across the world through the revival in Lakeland Florida. There have been claims of people being raised from the dead. One particular story of a young man involved in an accident who I believe died and was brought back through prayer. Todd stresses the importance for evidence for all the healings that are claimed, and he is making a list of them with all the medical evidence to back these healings up. He doesn’t appear to be a man who is anything but humble about what God is doing through him. Apart from the tatoos, which I don’t personally agree with, and everything else that has been said about him, I have seen Jesus glorified, and people being saved and healed.
    There will always be the fanatics and the crazy stuff that comes along. We have to sort out the chaff from the wheat and see what is really happening in Florida through this mans ministry.

  13. H-Hunter said

    You guys have got to be kidding me! This guy is a nut, certified even! He talks about being possessed by demons himself, he shakes, convulses on the floor, has outer-body trips to other countries, kicks people in the face and says that God told him to, he says God told him to take somebody out at the knees to heal them, he claims people healed, then the people die a week later, he takes trips to heaven, gets his gut split open by angels and they put little white boxes back in, he prays to Satan in his so-called prayer of Salvation. His so-called “Salvation” message is so man-centered it’s not even funny- “Come to Jesus, He’ll make your life better”. Watch as he touches people in the audience that want to be healed, he touches them, tries to guess what their illness is and is 100% wrong on his diagnosis, he says that when he touches somebody, the Holy Spirit tells him what’s wrong with the person he has just touched, just watch him do this, he’s wrong every time! This man is a false prophet, teacher, a heretic and is a lousy preacher. The whole thing is done through hypnosis, don’t believe me, check it out on the internet, repetitive music, the same thing being said over and over, the power of suggestion, it’s a scam people! How much Scripture is used in his messages? He may use a part of a verse here or there, but it’s usually taken out of context. Come on people, he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing, he’s not to be trusted for anything, I don’t care who he says he’s praying to, the devil is having a field day with him and you! Run, run from this false teacher, don’t be deceived any more. Anyone who is claiming this sort of healing, miracles, etc can’t be trusted.

  14. JL said

    I though this discussion was supposed to be based on the radio program? Hunter-why would you cut and paste some long drawn out post when you haven’t even taken the time to listen to the WHOLE show. Dr. Brown did a great job of opening up the discussion for other people to weigh in and ended the show on ways for listeners to discern if a revival is from God or not. If a guest host has an opinion or perception that you don’t agree with, then the phone lines are open for you for discuss it for the benefit of everyone. Instead of shutting it down without an open mind to hear the whole perspective, why don’t you try listening all the way through next time?

  15. Maz said

    H-Hunter: Have you seen him or heard him actually do these things or are you reading this off the You-tube? Whether you’re right or wrong I sense a lack of grace and humility on your part.

  16. Zerxil said

    HEY ARE you THE PHD THAT WAS ON BEFORE? lsd to phd. I didn’t catch this show. bently said he kicked people in the face and said that God told him to. Actually this is true. Might be takin out of context, or not. Way of the master has some Bently clips. Wow, he might just be certifiable.

  17. Zerxil said

    H-HUNTER, tone it down just a smidgen, a small margin, and you will get more people to listen. Bently is at least getting his message out, and its somewhat Christian, except the satin, prosperity gospel, and the structural harm to the human body parts….

  18. Zerxil said

    in one God TV broadcast from Lakeland Florida, a person on the platform says – “The anointing, I used to feel it in my hand, now I feel it in my spine – it’s weird!” The occult Kundalini spirit is reported by its devotees to reside in the spine. As seen in this article, there are many similarities between Kundalini manifestations and what is happening in Florida. This should raise some flags. Scripture calls us to “test the spirits” since counterfeit spirits could mimic the Holy Spirit.

    John, do you know of ‘Kundalini’? What is it, she, he?

  19. Zerxil said

    Kundalini (kuṇḍalinī कुण्डलिनी) Sanskrit, literally “coiled”. In Indian yoga, a “corporeal energy”[1] – an unconscious, instinctive or libidinal force or Shakti, envisioned either as a goddess or else as a sleeping serpent coiled at the base of the spine.

    Kundalini
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  20. H-Hunter,

    I would encourage you to listen to the whole show first and then comment in more depth.

    As for Lakeland, I have not been there yet, but Todd Bentley came to Concord, NC last week (where our ministry is based), and the worship was Jesus-exalting and powerful, Todd shared his testimony of salvation (with a clear call to make a break with sin), gave an altar call for the lost, then read some verses on healing and preached about divine healing (his points were basic and scripturally sound), and then prayed for the sick, with many testifying of healing. So, the one meeting I attended was very positive, with none of the controversial things that you spoke of taking place.

    As for Rodney Howard Brown, Patricia King, Randy Clark, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, and Todd Bentley all being in the same camp, I was not aware of that. Can you tell me the relationship between Rodney and Todd? Just curious.

    I would strongly recommend that you take the time to read my volume The Revival Answer Book, which deals with using discernment in contemporary revival movements. Our ministry will be happy to send you a copy if you can’t afford one.

    Dr. Brown

  21. Jay said

    (Rev. 19) 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (1st John 4)1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    (Matt. 7) 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (2nd Peter) 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon
    themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes
    condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

    7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

    10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government.
    Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom
    a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    The verse that should stand out more than any of these is ” The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: ”
    Matthew chaper 7 also says this “1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. “

  22. H-Hunter said

    Ok, ok, sorry if I came across too strong, my bad, I was somewhat in the flesh. The problem is that I heard Dr. Brown mention these revivals and I shut it down. One of the “churches” that is really connected with Todd is in my home town, I used to go this “church” about 30 years ago. Back then, the only gift that was ever seen was tongues. Now, it’s a mess. I witness alot around my town, and run into people from this “church” all the time, they tell me that I’m not preaching the whole Gospel, but that there needs to be signs and wonders. I hear them impart Salvation to people, they never, ever preach repentance and Faith, it’s always a sloppy, man-centered message. Very rarely is the Bible actually used. I have also been up to this “church” and seen first hand what is going on, girls dancing provocatively, people out of control, people saying they could predict the future, etc. All the same stuff that Mr. Bentley does. So, Dr. Brown, with all due respect, I will never ever back up what Todd is doing in Florida or anywhere, the man teaches a false gospel and is a false prophet, teacher a hundred times over. And no, I haven’t seen Todd in person, but have some friends that did, they won’t go back. Also, just heard today that a friend that has a bad back, tried to get healed here at this “church”, it didn’t work, he just went to Florida, saw Todd, and guess what, he still has a bad back. Gotta go, but I’ll be back on later. Again, sorry about my tone, I should have stated things a little differently, but my position still stands, Todd is a false teacher.

  23. H-Hunter,

    Apologies accepted. I understand these can be emotional issues. The fact is, I was a leader involved in the Brownsville Revival for four years, and every night, the message of salvation and repentance went forth in pure and simple form, yet the critics still raged — with accusations of Kundalini influence too! Yet people who were wonderfully saved during the revival and are now on the mission field around the world winning the lost testify to the reality of what Jesus did.

    As for Todd, here’s where I would caution you: According to the NT, a false prophet or false teacher is hell bound (a wolf in sheep’s clothing), and that person does not preach Jesus as Savior and Lord. I would be very careful before I would apply to that to any brother or sister — be that person a revivalist or a revival critic.

    So, for the sake of the blog here, please let me know how Todd teaches people to be saved. In all seriousness, I would honestly like to know why you believe he preaches a false gospel.

    I have not heard much of his preaching, but in the one message I heard in person he gave a simple and clear call to turn from sin, turn to Jesus, believe him for salvation, and then yield unconditionally to him. Is that a false gospel?

  24. ADB said

    I think that in microcosm here we see some of what can happen with revivals. Even genuine revivals have their critics, even within the Christian community. The “Old Lights” back in the mid 1700s sure did not have much love lost for Jonathan Edwards during the 1st Great Awakening. During the 2nd Great Awakening the Presbyterians actually split over the revivalism. In my opinion any true revival may prompt hostile reactions from both the left and right. Of course the theological left doesn’t have much room in its theology for radically changed lives and repentance. Some on the right though, I think would also criticize it. Some people in a very well-intentioned defense of scripture seem to react instinctively with skepticsm against outpourings of the Spirit and emotional reactions to this. That’s my 2 cents worth at least. Regarding Bentley, I’ve met someone whose been there, and also read pretty harsh criticism of him, so I don’t know if it’s truly a spiritual revival or not- time will tell I suppose. In the meantime I pray that revival will come to my little flock.

    The curmudgeonly pastor

  25. H-Hunter said

    Have you guys ever read John MacArthur Charismatic Chaos, or Hank Hanegraff’s Counterfeit Revival or Christianity in Crisis? All 3 books explain the dangers with these guys that call this a “new thing” or movement of the Holy Spirit, not exactly sure what to call that but, it’s wrong. Anyways, I’d love to send you guys some links to Youtube so you can hear Todd’s “Gospel” message, he actually prays to Satan in the prayer, sure, he mentions sin, but doesn’t explain what sin is and he says to come to Jesus so you’ll have a better life, it’s the prosperity, modern Gospel garb. A person would never see their need for a Savior if they heard Todd’s message, no Scripture, nothing. But, that’s typical for these “Word of Faith” people. Here’s my question, is this Biblical or not Biblical? If it doesn’t line up with Scripture, then?

    Dr. Brown, one more thing, the reason I say Todd is a false teacher is because he has a different Jesus, remember, even Mormons believe in “Jesus”, so do the JW’s, but they all have a different Jesus. Todd talks to angels, has out of body trips, gets gold fillings, etc. He is an idolater. So, when he mentions Jesus, it’s a different Jesus. His Jesus doesn’t line up with the Jesus of the Bible.

    Here’s the link to one of the Youtube videos: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ekDJWlGxyGo

  26. H-Hunter said

    http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=714 Good stuff!

    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/todd-bentley-prophesying-bad-cold-reading/ Just read the first entry.

    http://churchwarnings.blogspot.com/2008/05/todd-bentley-revival-in-lakeland-email.html

    This is just a sampling, want more? Ask and I’ll give you more, lots more.
    The “worship leader” is singing and Todd is on the floor panting, it’s weird.

  27. H-Hunter said

    One more.

  28. Maz said

    H-Hunter: It appears you have not heard Tod preach yourself. I found what I heard on the You-tube about Todd disturbing, and I so easily made a judgment purely on that, BUT

  29. Maz said

    Sorry….I was somehow cut off in mid sentence….to continue….BUT, I watched the rivival on God TV the other night and I heard Todd preaching the gospel, he preached Jesus the King. It thoroughly inspired me and encouraged me to go on in God. The worship (as I said before) was all JESUS centered. They called out His name, they worshipped HIM.

    Yes, there are some times when the flesh enters in, there are times when the worship is ‘heavenly’, the Spirit is obviously present, but there are times when I feel they go on too long and it grates (on me anyway). But of the devil…I really don’t think so.
    Be careful what you say against any brother or sister. I am. Fear God and seek Him as to what is true or not, but don’t go listening to everybody else and making a judgment on that alone.

  30. Maz said

    ADB: Your’e right there. Every ‘revival’ has had it’s critics and usually…and sadly it seems to come from WITHIN the Church.
    I’m sure the Azusa Street revival had their critics, as did the Welsh revival. Recently we had people talking against the ‘Toronto Blessing’; Rodney Howard Browne and the ‘laughing revival’; and then Pensecola. As I said, the flesh does come into it sometimes, because we are saved human beings who still possess certain weaknesses and failings, we sometimes want to help God out by ‘whipping’ it up, or wanting to ‘look’ spiritual. God help us to let Him do what He wants to do without getting in the way.

    H-Hunter: And as for people not being healed….I don’t know why this happens, but it does. I saw a man go up on the platform in a wheelchair in one meeting, and he left in the wheelchair…why, I don’t know, but you can’t weigh the whole revival on the few negative things that happen…..remember that JESUS is being preached, JESUS is being worshipped, JESUS is being uplifted, and JESUS is being honoured by Todd.

    Have you heard his testimony?…I think you should.
    ”But God has chosen the FOOLISH things of the world to confound the wise, and God had chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and BASE THINGS of the world and things which are DISPISED, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are, that NO FLESH should glory in His presence.” 1 Cor: 1 v 27-29.

  31. H-Hunter said

    Maz, what testimony? It’s as man-centered as it could ever be! I cannot believe how people are flocking after this man, why is the “spirit” better around Todd? If God wanted to heal, couldn’t He do it with out Todd Bentley? Of course, but the problem is with Todd, and I’m not sure why nobody is seeing it here, is that he’s NOT preaching the Word, he’s been wrong hundreds of times about people’s healing needs, “God told me your arm is hurt, is that true? No? Oh, you’ve come up here to pray for your brother’s ankle, ok”. That’s just one reason the guy is a hoax and a false teacher/prophet. He’s wrong about this stuff all the time! I could go on forever, what about his “spirit bong”? I can’t find the video on that one, but Todd says he’s taking hits off the “spirit bong” full of anointing oil and says he’s passing it around in the “spirit” for others. Come on, people, why is everyone buying this garbage hook line and sinker? What we should be longing for is more teaching about Jesus, the Creator of the universe! Isn’t Jesus enough? Why all this extra-Biblical nonsense? Everyone is so into their feelings that they fail to run things like this through Scripture to see whether or not it’s from God or not. Remember, the Devil disguises himself as an angel of light, remember the Pharaoh’s men and Moses. Again, Todd Bentley worships “another Jesus”.

  32. Zerxil said

    revival school
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    PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Todd Bentley’s Testimony & Alien Encounters Reply with quote
    I just wrote a long detailed post and somehow messed it up. Didn’t post.

    Anyway I had a revelation re:Todd Bentley’s personal testimony. Here is a letter I wrote :

    “The bottom line is that this New Age philosophy is permeating our culture, our churches, even behind the scenes in Israel it’s self.

    I believe that this New Age teaching is going to merge in with Alien Encounters and people are going to be deceived into believing these are “signs and wonders” from God.

    It’s this “Toronto Blessing”, Mark Bentley Florida Revival.

    I had tried to watch his sermon but had to shut it off in 2 seconds. The people on our Christian blog who watched it either felt the presence of evil spirits in their homes after watching it or had warning nightmares that very evening. Two people on our blog believe it’s an authentic revival from God because their pastors went to see him and thought it was legitimate.

    People speaking out are accused of “Quenching the Spirit.”

    Others are claiming to be Healed from watching his revivals on the Internet. The TV stations are picking this up now.

    There were two great video’s on Tod Bentley’s testimony this morning. Now part 2 has been pulled. (Maybe it will be put back on)

    Here is part one

    Part two was the best . He describes this beam or pillar of light coming through the roof of his church and transporting him up to the 3rd Heaven. He is strapped to a table while these people perform an operation. He’s paralyzed but this doesn’t hurt. Then they split him open and lay his guts out beside him. They proceed to replace his guts with little white boxes. He asked them what they are doing? God reply’s and says in these boxes are gifts of spiritual knowledge which would take an average person 40 years to learn. We don’t have time for that now. You can use them in your Revivals.

    Do I need to say anymore?

    All these followers see are the miracles. Thinking they are of God. That this is the Great Revival everyone has been waiting for.

    If this is not the Great Apostasy we have been warned against then it sure is a precursor!!!!

    This is spreading like wildfire across the Globe!!!!

    This is a spiritual gloves off , knock down, take them to Heaven or Drag them to Hell war. Look at how fast world events are moving now? We’re we not just faced w/Eckhart Towle and now this?

    Here is another Post :

    I’m understanding even more now because after his origional “Alien Encounter” type testimony he has also been traveling to the several “Layers of Heaven”. Now this particular part of his experience “Looks Good” on the outside “Seems what you would think of Heavenly” but there are some pecarious details intwined in this experience as well. In another article he will give you several “Keys” or “Points” to be able to go to the 3rd heaven and beyond. Here are some quotes:

    “This is an hour like none other. Instead of a Western Hemisphere waiting to be discovered, there is a heavenly hemisphere or heavenly realms waiting for exploration by those who dare. As a matter of fact, in the natural, outer space has been probed by gutsy astronauts for about four decades—beginning about seven years before I was born! Perhaps some of you might remember the famous words of “ground-breaker” astronaut Neil Armstrong as he set foot on the moon’s surface [July 21, 1969]—“That’s one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind!”

    Wow! Those courageous explorers and astronauts discovered new realms, and yet—don’t miss this—there is more “out there” that God wants us to discover and understand. In fact, today, there is a new breed of believers that God is raising up who have the same DNA as the explorers and the astronauts! These new pioneers are about to take a giant leap into new heavenly realms that for the most part have been unexplored, except by a few. This is God’s doing and it is marvelous in our eyes.

    God’s works and His ways are unendingly awesome! A whole new dimension is opening up for those who love the Lord, who are in the right position. Remember last week I shared that heaven is more real to me now than it’s ever been; all because I’ve been there! I’ve been taken into heaven.”

    Look @ this quote again:”In fact, today, there is a new breed of believers that God is raising up who have the same DNA as the explorers and the astronauts.”

    What do you think this could be? Aliens or Nephillim?

    (There is a map of the US where farmers have had cows mutilated. The blood is drained out, sex organs,tounge, other things removed w/surgical lazer like precision.)

    If you study “Alien Encounters” and “Todd Bentley’s Encounter” they are almost identical.

    There is a brother in the “Word of Faith” movement who had these two identical enounters. One of the “Operation” and one of the “Heaven.” We are at odds on a blog because I’m exposing this Florida Revival and Todd Bentley as a False Prophet. I’ve been accused of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as well as being a liken to a Pharisee. He believes these Miracles done in the name of Jesus are from God. This is the Revival everyone has been waiting for.

    I believe I’ve been given a revelation of the “Spirit of the Anti-Christ”. This new age-3rd Heaven,Vibrational,Collective conscience will merge togeather into a unified thought process. What is happening now will pave the way for the Anti-Christ’s arrival. People are being conditioned to accept this for a particular future time. One soon to come.

    Whether actual “Aliens” come down and show themselves-I don’t know. Not unrealistic during the “Abomination of Desolation” era I’m afraid.

    was this too long?

  33. Maz said

    H-Hunter: They do have meetings wihout Todd Bentley being there, and people still get healed and saved.
    He DID preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom when I was watching.
    Yes, Jesus IS enough, but is hearing about Him enough, don’t you want to enter into His Presence and sense Him there with you in a new way? Yes, He is always with us, but He also wants to make Himself manifest to His people, He wants to heal and deliver, revive aswell as save people from their sins. He wants to touch our lives in a Real tangible way sometimes. You can’t go around as a Christian without having SOME feelings, SOME emotions.

    ”Todd Bentley worships ‘another Jesus’ ”. Tell me, what is this ”other Jesus”like?
    And by the way I have not bought ”this garbage hook, line and sinker”, I still have reservations, but until I know for sure what this man and his ministry is all about, I reserve judgment. I do not want to be charged by God with blasphame if I am wrong, and sentenced to a lost eternity. (No forgiveness of blaspheming the Holy Spirit and His work, if it really is of God). BE CAREFUL.

  34. Zerxil said

    RevivalSeeker
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Divided in denominations – a “merciful judgment” o Reply with quote
    I am sharing the following not as a prophecy, but simply a thought I submit to your discernment:

    Might the existence of so many denominations and divisions within the evangelical world be a kind of “merciful judgment” of God?

    A judgment, since our carnality (1 Cor.3:3-4) is exposed before the world, and we are humiliated, because we cannot show to the world any fulfillment of John 13:34-35 (“…By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another”), nor of John 17:21 (“… that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.”).

    But at the same time, God’s mercy, since if these denominations and divisions would not exist, we would long ago have united in a false Babylonian unity similar to the Roman Catholic church, and this would be even worse than the current situation.

    The day when God takes away this judgment, the churches as human institutions will unite under the leadership of a powerful “God’s Anointed One”, who will be no other than the false Christ, the antichrist; and this will be the beginning of the antichristian world religion which will persecute the true church, the true Christians.

  35. Zerxil said

    Maz if you don’t want to read the whole 32 post just read the blip after the link. It doesn’t matter what else Todd says.

  36. ADB said

    H-Hunter

    The clips of him describing shaking the woman’s leg, kicking someone in the face, etc. are over the top. I’d be willing to bet that he’s embellishing this a lot for the audience. What I’d really like to see is a video clip of him actually doing this instead of his describing it.

    I was puzzled a little though by the first two clips you showed. His way of doing an altar call isn’t mine, but what exactly was objectionable or heretical about it? What was wrong with lots of people coming and bowing prostrate? The most common Greek word used for worship in the NT (proskuneo) implies prostrating oneself before God. It might be good to remember that the 1st and 2nd Great Awakenings featured things that were much further out than this- people rolling in the floor of churches screaming for mercy, fainting, barking like dogs, dancing, etc.

    I’m not saying that the Bentley revival is genuine, I’m not there so I can’t judge. I’m not a charismatic either, but I also don’t doubt that the Spirit does still give the gift of tongues and does still heal.

  37. carole said

    Dr. Brown,

    I appreciate your discussion on revival. I think it is something that is terribly misunderstood. If I may summarize the insight I think you were sharing, which I found extremely helpful:

    Revival of God:

    If revival is of the Lord, then it is a time of repentance and recognition of how desperately we need Him. (In this case, revival should happen in our hearts when we are by ourselves reading his word.)This revival is marked by truth, grounded in the scripture and breeds in us a desire to be used (ex. Isaiah when He encounters God cries “woe is me for I am undone”, then when the Lord cleanses him, he cries “Here I am, send me.”

    Revival of Man:

    If revival is of man, the emphasis is on how great we are, and it becomes a feel-good happy-go-lucky emotional trip that mimics the side effects of a drug addiction. This is often peer-oriented, and it would never happen when we are by ourselves in His word. And almost an anti-bible attitude results where we do not want to search the scriptures daily, we only want to “feel good man”. This is useless.

    Thanks for your talk-

    In Christ,
    Carole

  38. Maz said

    Zerxil: I don’t know what you mean about me reading post #32, cos I wrote it!

    Carole: Todd has atleast once (because I heard him say it) that this revival (in Lakeland) is not about a man, it’s not about Todd Bentley but it’s about Jesus. So he certainly does not look for fame or recognition in this atall, he honours and exalts Jesus.

  39. carole said

    Maz-
    I agree with you- but I think we can say one thing and do another. Todd praises Christ with his mouth, but his heart is far from him. At least that is apparent to me in his actions. God has gifted us with discernment.

    Honestly, I think that revival shouldn’t be something we search for. I think we should search for Christ and spend time with Him. All else will be added…

  40. Anonymous said

    Im a latecomer to this discussion, but…

    Here are two portions of the statement of faith off the Fresh Fire webfite.


    1. THE WORD OF GOD

    “We believe the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is fully inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error, unified in their redemptive purpose, yielding a complete revelation of God’s will for the salvation of mankind. We hold the Bible to be trustworthy, the only supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct. Scripture is our source of revelation of God, the knowledge of salvation, the origin of all things and of the hereafter-it is the final Court of Appeal on all points of doctrine, life and godliness. (2 Tim 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21; Hebrews 4:12)”

    Sounds good so far, but then # 12 at the end says this,

    “FURTHER REVELATION

    We recognize that God is continually restoring truth and light to His Church. Therefore, we place no limit on further revelation; however, each must be substantiated according to the Scriptures.”

    Though I believe it is the logical outworking of a doctrine of present day prophesy and such (not to be confused with the “prophesy” spoken of with in the context of the “Sovereign Grace denomination by such orthodox men as CJ Mahaney and Wayne Grudem) this is really a denial of the doctrine of inerrency and further revelation (regardless of its doctrinal correctness) has always been regarded as unorthodox in evangelicalism. For something to actually be regarded as revelation, it must be a word from God in the “thus saith the Lord” sense, and ought to be written down and regarded as authoritative as the content of the other 66 books of the OT and NT.

  41. jAsOn said

    Oops, post #39 was mine.

    Also, I don’t consider myself a cessationist.

  42. Maz said

    Carole: ”Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. BY THIS know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that CONFESSES that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh IS OF GOD; and every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God; and this is that spirit of antichrist, of which ye have heard that it should come, and even now already is in the world. ” 1 John 4 1-3. (2 John v7).

    ”Whosoever shall CONFESS that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he in God.” 1 John 4 v 15.

    ”…I give you to understand that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed; and that no man can say that Jesus is Lord, BUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.” 1 Cor 12 v 3.

  43. Maz said

    Carole #38: But isn’t it wonderful to be with other brothers and sisters in an atmosphere of revival and praise and worship? To fellowship and share together as the Body of Christ, after all we shall all be together worshipping Him in Heaven one day. I love to get together with other Christians who love to worship and praise as I do.

  44. jAsOn said

    Matt. 7:” 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'”

  45. H-Hunter,

    I understand the concerns that John MacArthur and Hank Hanegraaff have with certain charismatic extremes, but as one who has traveled the world in charismatic circles, I have rarely if ever encountered such extremes. And, since the NT pattern of ongoing gifts of the Spirit and healings and miracles confirming the gospel message to the world, isn’t is very serious when people deny these things for today? Isn’t that a major violation of the Word of God?

    As for the Jesus Todd preaches, the statement of faith on his website speaks of the same Jesus you and I adore. Where is the other Jesus?

    For a lengthy discussion on my website on some of these very issues, go to the discussion at http://lineoffireradio.wordpress.com/2008/04/24/principles-of-spiritual-discernment/.

    Dr. Brown

  46. Maz said

    Jason: The key name is JESUS in those other verses, #41.

  47. H-Hunter said

    Maz, in regard to your post #32, I don’t even know where to begin.

    Maz: “Yes, Jesus IS enough, but is hearing about Him enough, don’t you want to enter into His Presence and sense Him there with you in a new way? Yes, He is always with us, but He also wants to make Himself manifest to His people, He wants to heal and deliver, revive aswell as save people from their sins. He wants to touch our lives in a Real tangible way sometimes. You can’t go around as a Christian without having SOME feelings, SOME emotions.”

    What? What does “enter into His presence” mean? Once a person is Born again, the Holy Spirit indwells them, God is ALWAYS with me, it’s not a feeling or a “sense” the Bible just says He is. Feelings are good, but they should come from reading the Bible, not our feelings first, then the Bible. Our joy and hope comes from knowing that Jesus has saved us from our sins for eternity, and that we get to be with Jesus forever, it comes from when God is glorified when a sinner repents and believes in Him!

    Maz: “”Todd Bentley worships ‘another Jesus’ ”. Tell me, what is this ”other Jesus”like?”

    Ok, the Jesus of the Bible is God made manifest in a man. He willingly hung on a cross, He took the punishment that we deserve for sinning against a HOLY God. Jesus IS God and He’s Holy, He deserves respect and awe and reverence. He doesn’t want any other god’s before Him either. He wants ALL of our attention, for HIS glory, not ours. He’s the Creator of the universe. He’s the King of the universe, He’s the I AM. Not some some silly little genie statue that waits for us to rub his belly so we can get something when we need it. He demands better than this piddly little, tiny Jesus that Todd and others talk about. When Todd or others say that “Jesus told me…”, then they have made up a god to suit themselves, a god that will be at their beckon call, one that makes feathers appear, gold fillings appear, one that takes them on outer-body trips to other countries and to heaven. I can go on and on with this man’s silly proclamations.

    In 2 Peter it says, “For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

    For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”

    and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

    So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.”

    Here, Peter is saying that even though they saw Jesus with their own eyes, they (we) are to trust the Scriptures more than the experience. Bottom line, if what Todd or anybody for that matter says doesn’t line up with Scripture, then it’s not from God. Remember, the Bible wasn’t written to us, it was written for us. Hope this helps. I still don’t understand why everyone is being so pragmatic about Todd Bentley and others, just because you are seeing supposed miracles doesn’t mean it’s from God. If people are believing this nonsense now, just wait until the anti-Christ comes, people will be all over him, “hook line and sinker”.

  48. Zerxil said

    32 OH ITS STILL BEING MODERATED…well if it ever shows up…

  49. H-Hunter said

    Where’s everybody at?

  50. Maz said

    H-Hunter: I really do understand where you are coming from, I’v gone that way before with Rodney Howard Browne, but to be honest, if I am not that sure about whether it is God or not, then I just leave it alone. I do believe God works in mysterious ways. His ways are above our ways and just because something seems weird is not the measuring rule for it.
    You were right about things measuring up with scripture…this is so important, I have had to speak out i the past about certain false prophets and teachers, when I hear something that doesn’t line up with scripture my spiritual alarm goes off.
    But all this You-tube stuff…I think they have something on everyone that is in major ministry.
    I went onto one site about false teachers and I found a list of over 80 so called false teachers and prophets, some major names on the American scene on Christian TV. Now some, I agreed with, and some I thot were a little over the top and questionable. I learnt a lot from Cross TV and John McArthur about some of these so-called false teachers, I am glad they opened my eyes to it, but I think we still need to be careful about what we say when some new ‘revival’ comes onto the scene.
    You-tube tend to put everything way over the top for sensationalism, but we have to judge from, not what other people ay, but by our own witness. What do you see for yourself that they are doing and saying?….or there must be genuine proof of false teaching.

  51. Maz said

    H-Hunter: Read 2 Chron: 5 v 13,14. 1 Kings: 8 v 10-11. Ex: 40 v 34. If this ‘presence’ of the Holy Spirit of God manifested Himself then in the OT, how much more will He want to manifest His glory and Presence to us His children today? We can enter boldly into His throne room.
    In 2 Chron: it says that they couldn’t stand to minister, does that sound like what is happening today when Gods Presence is manifest. They FELT something…or Someone. (The Holy Spirit is not an ‘it’ but a Person.

  52. jAsOn said

    Maz,

    My point in #43 was to say that, just b/c someone says they are doing this or that in Jesus’ name doesn’t prove the legitimacy of their subsequent actions.

  53. Maz said

    Jason: I recognise that is a possibility. But then what should we say about what the scriptures say in the list I gave in #41 post?

  54. jAsOn said

    I think those scriptures that mention confession have a depth of meaning that isn’t limited to just saying “LORD, LORD”, and prophesying in Christ’s name.

  55. Maz said

    Jason: How would you say that a true revival by God could be recognised?

  56. jAsOn said

    Repentance and belief

  57. Maz said

    Jason: Yes. I think conviction of sin and repentence is foremost. This has been one of the main signs in revivals in the past, particulary the Welsh revival where people were simply coming under conviction of sin and coming to Christ. The miners community then was affected in a very real way and ofcourse the Welsh chapels were being filled with converted miners.
    I remember when Billy Graham first came to Britain in 1954, altho I was only 8 then and I wasn’t aware of what was happening, but many thousands came to Christ under this firy American preacher who’s message was centred on the cross and Jesus sacrifice for us. But healings didn’t seem to be important as much as salvation.
    Why does America seem to be the place in the last few years where all these ‘revivals’ seem to happen? Pardon me…Canada also had one in Toronto?

  58. jAsOn said

    Here are some interesting words from Jim Elliff, taken from his essay, “Reformation of Revival”

    “Many are unaware that Jonathan Edwards was preaching a series on justification by faith alone when revival came to New England, or that the many of the Scottish revivals, for instance, were precipitated by the preaching of series on regeneration, or that the highly doctrinal book of Romans has an illustrative history as a tool of great revival of the kind I am speaking. Sound doctrine was at the core of revival. But sadly, to large numbers of evangelicals, it doesn’t seem to make any difference what we believe, only that we are feeling something or enjoying any number of the other substitutes for biblical Christianity.

    On such a foundation, does it make sense to revive the experience of believers alone? To revive a church’s experience alone when it has a mushy and insufficient doctrinal foundation is only to magnify our problems, to give credence to error, and to expand what got us into trouble in the first place.

    Because of this dilemma, let me make an easily misunderstood statement: Revival, as we commonly understand it, would be ill spent on such doctrinally deficient churches as we find today. This may seem a strange comment to make since I, like many of you, have actually hoped for and preached for revival. But my conviction has to do with the usual, one-sided understanding of revival prevalent in most circles. As A. W. Tozer said, “A revival of the kind of Christianity which we have had in America the last fifty year would be the greatest tragedy of this century, a tragedy which would take the church a hundred years to get over.”

    Merely bringing to vibrancy or bringing to life the experience of the believer alone may be extremely useful for dead orthodoxy—orthodox or correct belief without life. But we do not, on the main, have dead orthodoxy today. We have live heterodoxy. Hetero means “other” or “different.” Heterodoxy is divergent or even heretical belief. Reformation is that word we use to speak to the recovery of the correct doctrines and their vigorous application to all of life.

    We should not want a revival of experience alone without true reformation. And so the term revival is not adequate for our day unless we add the qualifiers “reformational” or “word-driven.” It is not wrong to desire revival if we mean a revival that is a resurgence of correct believing along with the enlivening of our experience with God which comes out of (not apart from) that sound doctrine. This means that I believe the most long-lasting change would not come by only having merely warm, or even powerful, dramatic experiences with God. No, what is needed is for some of the major organizations and churches, for instance, to reshape their view of the gospel to conform to the Bible.”

  59. Zerxil said

    32’S IS THERE NOW…

  60. Zerxil said

    H-Hunter are you a talent scout? for the raiders?

  61. H-Hunter said

    Where is Stu in all of this? What is your stance on this subject?

    Also Dr. Brown, I just happened to watch some Rodney Howard Browne last night, twice actually. He did the same type of things Todd and others do
    that are involved with this group. His Gospel message was fluffy at best, nothing about sin, or if he did, it was super fast. Pushing people multiple times until they fell over, yelling “Fire!”, just like Hinn and Bentley. You should have seen him, he was walking around the crowd picking out people, and then pushing them over, even when they didn’t want to. Where, I ask, is that in the Bible?

  62. H-Hunter,

    Lots of people do similar things, but that doesn’t mean they’re connected. As far as I know, Rodney and Todd have no working relationship or history. As for things not being found in the Bible, where is the exact order of your church service found in the Bible? Where are denominations found in the Bible? Jonathan Edwards said, “We ought not to limit God where He hath not limited Himself,” so just because something is not found in the Bible does not make it wrong. It must be judged by additional criteria.

    But I ask you this: Many opponents of revival preach a message that is contrary to Scripture, saying that the gifts and power of the Spirit are not for today. So, they blatantly contradict God’s Word. Is that worse than pushing someone while praying for them? Why excuse the one but condemn the other?

  63. H-Hunter said

    Ok guys, you asked for it: http://youtube.com/watch?v=DUTCWLoD4-4

    Todd Bentley needs to be stopped.

  64. H-Hunter said

    Want more? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYD8XFOolwk&NR=1

    Why would anybody from any ministry put their stamp of approval on this hoaxster?

    Dr. Brown, have you watched the video links I’ve provided? Do you still think this man is a true man of God?

    Nobody in their right mind would.

    Believe what you want, this is foolishness.

  65. H-Hunter said

    Zerxil said, “H-Hunter are you a talent scout? for the raiders?”

    Hmmm, wouldn’t you like to know? No, that would be fun though!

  66. Maz said

    Jason #58: Amen! IN all the ‘fluff and bubble’, and I have had my share over here, I found the teaching and the preaching of the Word sadly lacking. The concern is, with all these people being ‘saved’, I wonder where they will be in a years time? Babies, once they are born need nurturing. Now I know some ministries have a ‘follow up’ but babies need proper teaching. Sadly some of the ‘adult’ believers aren’t very well studied either, I have found a lot of ignorance in believers in the Church’s here, no doubt there is a lot in the U.S.A……and a lot of spurious teaching too! (I’v heard a lot on a well known Christian Channel from over there.)
    The Bible (somewhere) speaks about a dirth of the Word of God in the Last Days. The Church needs revival, (and not just America either) the Church (globally)needs awakening, but the Word needs to be paramount.

  67. H-Hunter said

    Where is everybody at? Anybody want to refute my claims that Todd Bentley and his ilk are false teachers?

    He kicked a guy with stage 4 cancer in the gut, what was that about?

    If you listen to the Way of the Master Radio, both hours, from today’s show you’ll hear Todd Friel break this down.

  68. H-Hunter,

    I heard about another guy that spat on a man who came up for prayer. What do you think of that?

    Dr. Brown

  69. H-Hunter said

    What do you mean? Who spit on whom?

  70. H-Hunter said

    Are you talking about Jesus and the blind man? If so, what does that have to do with Todd Bentley?

  71. Maz said

    H-Hunter: Last night I saw Todd head someone in the stomach. Does that sound wrong to you? Actually because I SAW it, I saw a gentler head into this man than you would imagine. He wasn’t hurt. And I still don’t know what happened to the lady who Todd supposedly kicked in the face, or this man that you say Todd ”kicked a guy in the gut”…..were they hurt? You don’t say.
    People can imagine a lot from words without actually ‘seeing’, and things can be made to sound worse than they were.

  72. H-Hunter,

    Jesus actually spat on a few people when healing them, and I can assure you that if that was not recorded in the Bible and some evangelist did that today, you’d be up in arms over it. Do you not see the implication of that?

    In any case, here’s what I’d like to know about Todd Bentley kicking someone: Was the person hurt or healed? In the case of the cancer victim, were they delivered, did they stay the same, or did they get worse? See if you can find that out, and then let me know how that affects your thinking.

  73. Maz said

    Thanks Michael, that is what I’v been trying to find out eversince the ‘kicking’ was mentioned.

  74. H-Hunter said

    Mr. Brown, I’ll do my best to find out what happened to that poor man, I should try to contact his lawyer to find out how he’s doing.
    What about the pastor that had cancer just a month or two ago, Todd told him he was healed, one week later, the man died of cancer?

    Regarding Jesus “spit”, that was descriptive, not PREscriptive. I will look further into that story, I know there’s a reason for it. But
    just because Jesus did it, doesn’t mean we’re to do it as well.

    You also must look at the whole thing going on down in Lakeland, Fl. It’s not just this one instance, it’s the whole thing. Man-centered songs, “kingdom now” theology being taught, his man-centered Gospel, angel worship, trips to heaven, people hissing at him, kicking people, a lack of Scripture being used, panting, twitching, weird pagan dancing, barking, screaming, gold fillings, gold dust, feathers, gems appearing, I could go on and on. This man teaches a different gospel period.

    Watch this video and tell me this is from God:

    This just happened Monday night. Todd is on the floor twitching and panting. This lady is possessed.

    Mr. Brown, obviously you will never be persuaded, I hope you do. I’m not the best at explaining this stuff, I’m still learning, but I
    do know when something’s not Biblical, this is not Biblical. This man and others, if they don’t repent, will answer to God someday and I don’t
    think it will be pretty.

  75. F. L. A. said

    What’s wrong with weird pagan dancing?

    I jest with you Mr.Hunter, for I am a pagan.
    Thank you for the youtube videos.They were most interesting.

  76. Maz said

    H-Hunter: I wouldn’t agree with what you said about the ”man-centered songs” and the ”man centered gospel”, because I have been watching some of these meetings, and they worship and Praise Jesus, it’s all about Him, and the night I heard Todd preach was a Jesus centered message.

    I have mentioned my reservatons, and I understand about the shaking, the twitching, and all the other stuff, and to be honest, there are things about it I don’t like, but I can’t ignore the way Jesus is uplifted and worshipped. I would have to see something that would completely make my mind up before I can say for absolute certainty where this is coming from.

    I think time will tell.

  77. H-Hunter said

    Maz, one verse:

    For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. (Matthew 24:24, ESV)

  78. H-Hunter said

    Another good one:

    For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. (2Ti 4:3-5 ESV)

  79. Maz said

    H-Hunter: But would a false Christ preach Jesus? Or himself?
    Can you tell me what false doctrine and what myth Todd has been preaching?

  80. Anonymous said

    H-Hunter,

    I think you’re missing my point. I’m simply asking you questions and encouraging you to back away from the “false gospel” talk. It goes way over the top and it’s dangerous our brothers and sisters like this.

    As far as Todd pronouncing people healed, I don’t believe he does this. He simply repeats what the people claim has happened to them and then encourages them to get doctor’s reports. What is wrong with this?

    I can simply tell you that I have been on the other side of slander and attack, and that’s why I urge fairness and the use of biblical guidelines, not man-made guidlines. Is that OK?

  81. H-Hunter said

    I’m done, this is useless. I can’t even believe I have to keep coming up with evidence and more evidence. If what we’ve all seen isn’t enough to convince us this guy is a false teacher then I don’t know what will. You guys have fun. Stu, I’d love to hear you have someone on your show that doesn’t leave it up to us to decide if something is legit or not, it’s called Truth Talk Live, let’s hear the the Truth. Why not have someone on the opposite side of this controversy? See ya.

  82. Tripp said

    I’m a Christian and I have to say that I find the videos of this guy pretty disturbing. The guy has to be crazy.

  83. F. L. A. said

    Mmmmmmmmmm.

    And the audience?

  84. Maz said

    Tripp: I was disturbed by the videos too. BUT I took time to investigate. It is dangerous just to watch some You-tube videos and judge something by that alone. Yes, on their own they make Todd look crazy, but what I have seen in the meetings each night has none of the ‘kicking’ and violence, apart from a fairly gentle head butt which did not hurt the man, in fact Todd did it twice and I did not see the man complain. I’v heard Jesus preached and seen Him exalted in the words spoken and the worship. I’v said this before and I will tell what I have seen for myself. I think if someone is going to go so far as to criticise very strongly as H-Hunter has he needs to have checked it out thoroughly before saying anything.

    Now, as far as Emma goes, I have questions about that….maybe Dr. Brown could comment. Emma does not sound like a Biblical name and do we get female angels?

    As far as Todds visitations go, I can’t say one way or the other, that is something between him and God. But whatever people say, the end result must glorify God and Jesus His Son, and altho there are things I’m not happy with sometimes (the flesh can get in wherever God moves) I cannot say at this moment that this is not a move of God.
    We need to wait and see…and watch and pray.

  85. F. L. A. said

    What about the man with the colon cancer that he kicked in the belly?

  86. Tripp said

    Personally, I don’t get it. But, it’s not my place to judge or decide whether or not Todd is on the up and up. Certainly does not appear to be the case.

  87. Maz said

    F.L.A: This is part of the problem, we get bits of the stories (usually the bad bits) but not the full story and the outcome.

  88. H-Hunter said

    Ok, it’s like a car wreck, I couldn’t stay away. Here, listen to this:

  89. Maz said

    If anyone is interested there is a long letter written by Todd Bentley in answer to some of the criticisms he and the Florida Revival has received, it is found on the Fresh Fire Minnistries web site, the letter is headed ‘Lifting Jesus High’. There is also a booklet to download addressing these criticisms written by a Biblical scholar, Dr. Gary S. Greig, PhD., a former Associate Professor of OT and Hebrew at Regent University School of Divinity, and Senior Editor of Theology and Acquisitions for the Regal Publishing Group.

  90. jAsOn said

    If you guys want to find out about an accurate portrayal of biblical charismatism and the continuationism, you should check out the “Sovereign Grace” movement. CJ MaHanney is one of the primary proponents. His former church, Covenant Life is now pastored but Josh Harris, whom he mentored.

    http://www.covlife.org/

  91. Maz said

    Will do, Jason.

  92. Maz said

    Jason: I certainly don’t want to get into a deep theological debate about election and grace, but how does one repent, change ones mind, turn from sin to God, without having the freewill ability to do so? If God gives the sinner the ability, then where is the repentence on OUR part? Why does God challenge US when HE is the One that does it all?

  93. Zerxil said

    68 DIDNT HE SPIT ONTO HIS HAND & MIX IT WITH MUD?

  94. Zerxil,

    On the spitting issue, see Mark 7:32-35; 8:22-25.

    H-Hunter,

    I’ll review the videos you refer to ASAP, but I must say that I find this fascinating: More then 60,000 people claim to have been healed since the meetings in Lakeland began — this is just a claim, but I’m just repeating it — and I personally know godly Christians who were dramatically healed there through prayer in Jesus’ name or who witnessed physical healings in front of their eyes — through faith in Jesus’ name. Should all the focus, then, be on something controversial Todd did in a meeting? And for argument’s sake, let’s say he made some mistakes along the way: What does this prove? Show me a revival or move of God (or local church!) without mistakes.

    I’m not trying to downplay controversy, only trying to put it in perspective.

  95. Zerxil said

    Todd Bently brings new meaning to laying on of hands. I don’t know, but the youtube clips really sounds bad. I suppose you could argue Todd’s sermons are ‘Christian’. Where should the line be drawn than? Is it ok to use mallets and swords to ‘heal’ people? If your arm causes you to sin…

  96. ADB said

    H. Hunter,

    Just a point of clarification about the Kingdom of God. I’m not sure what you meant in your reference to “Kingdom Now” theology. But the Kingdom of God, properly speaking is both a present reality and a future event. Certainly you know that Jesus spoke extensively about the Kingdom, and said that it had come and that it was at hand. The Kingdom is present now in the work of the Holy Spirit and the work of the Church on earth. The Kingdom has, of course, not come in its fullness because God’s will does not rule the earth at this time. This will occur at the eschaton.

  97. Zerxil said

    32
    And people brought to him a deaf man who had a speech impediment and begged him to lay his hand on him.
    33
    He took him off by himself away from the crowd. He put his finger into the man’s ears and, spitting, touched his tongue;
    34
    then he looked up to heaven and groaned, and said to him, “Ephphatha!” (that is, “Be opened!”)
    35
    And (immediately) the man’s ears were opened, his speech impediment was removed, and he spoke plainly.

    7:32 And they bring unto him one that was deaf, and had an impediment in his speech; and they beseech him to put his hand upon him.

    7:33 And he took him aside from the multitude, and put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue;

    7:34 And looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened.

    7:35 And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.

    22
    5 When they arrived at Bethsaida, they brought to him a blind man and begged him to touch him.
    23
    He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. Putting spittle on his eyes he laid his hands on him and asked, “Do you see anything?”
    24
    Looking up he replied, “I see people looking like trees and walking.”
    25
    Then he laid hands on his eyes a second time and he saw clearly; his sight was restored and he could see everything distinctly.

    8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.

    8:23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.

    8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

    8:25 After that he put [his] hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

    please note that Jesus took them aside from the multitudes & town.

    7:33 Jesus might not have spat on the guy, could just have cleared his mouth.
    8:23 He might not have spit on this guy either, but spit was involved

    p.s. Jesus aperantly can make mistakes…at least as a man. 8:24&25

  98. jAsOn said

    Maz,

    You said, “Jason: I certainly don’t want to get into a deep theological debate about election and grace,”

    You just did 🙂

    You said, “how does one repent, change ones mind, turn from sin to God, without having the freewill ability to do so?”

    One doesn’t do that on their own; the whole idea of gracious mercy is that it isn’t deserved, and if one has the spiritual ability to turn from one’s sins on his own, then one is able to (not that he necessarily will) boast the he turned from his sins of his own free will. The idea of libertarian free-will (that one has the ability to do or to do otherwise) is not found in the bible; the bible is replete with examples of God as the ultimate power, and that He is sovereign over all.

    You said, “If God gives the sinner the ability, then where is the repentence on OUR part?”

    God gives us the spiritual ability to repent, and then we do repent…we are repenting, God is not doing it for us in time, through our bodies, He gives anyone who does repent, the ability and desire to do so. Rom. 3:
    ” “None is righteous, no, not one;
    11no one understands;
    no one seeks for God.
    12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    no one does good,
    not even one.””

    and Eph 2:”8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

    You said, “Why does God challenge US when HE is the One that does it all?”

    Of course God commands all to believe and repent, but just because He has commanded something, He is not obligated to provide everyone with the ability to do it or not do it.

    You, since you didn’t want to get into a deep theological discussion about this, I guess we can leave it at that. Btw, why do you ask?

  99. jAsOn said

    Zerxil,

    You said, “p.s. Jesus aperantly can make mistakes…at least as a man. 8:24&25”

    I hope you were saying this in jest!

    If Jesus even COULD make mistakes as a man, then He would not have been qualified as our Savior!

  100. Maz said

    Jason: Is one question ‘getting into a deep debate’, I just want one answer.

  101. Zerxil said

    guess it depends on what you think of as mistakes.

  102. Zerxil said

    I think its great that he could make mistakes, But he didn’t in the theology department. If you have to do something twice, the first time wasn’t done completely right.

  103. Zerxil said

    Of course now that I said that, I have to give Todd 100x more leeway.

  104. Maz said

    Jason: I guess your answer was too much of a temptation not to leave without a reply.

    How can anyone ‘boast’ of turning from sin? To recognise that you have sinned and repent of it is not something to be boasting about is it?
    The boasting would be if I said I did it by ‘works’ of righteousness. That is different.

    If God gives us that ability to repent, then why doesn’t He give it to everyone? Why leave anyone out, we have ALL sinned and come short of the glory of God. God loved the whole world that He gave His Son for it.

    You cannot command someone to do something they are incapable of doing except ofcourse when the one commanding gives them the ability to obey that command. Which means it isn’t OUR obedience anymore is it? Adam had a choice to obey or disobey God in the beginning, and he chose to disobey. He had the free will to do so, he lost eternal life on a paradise earth and reaped death and disease, but now man still has a free will to choose to obey or disobey God, otherwise we end up just being puppets on strings waiting for God to pull the right string for us to repent.
    THAT is not the God I believe in.

  105. Maz said

    Jason: Sorry, I didn’t answer your last question. Why I asked. Because I went onto your link and read the Church’s statement of faith concerning salvation.

  106. jAsOn said

    Maz,

    You said, “How can anyone ‘boast’ of turning from sin? To recognize that you have sinned and repent of it is not something to be boasting about is it?”

    If you and your neighbor both have been give the exact same ability to repent and the desire to belief, but you choose to believe and your neighbor doesn’t, then we must ask why? Why do you believe and your neighbor doesn’t; what makes you more willing to believe than him? How do you explain the deadness about which the bible refers to our unregenerate hearts?

    you said, “The boasting would be if I said I did it by ‘works’ of righteousness. That is different.”

    So if instead, you said, “i believe b/c I choose of myself, and on my own, to believe”, then that is better?

    “If God gives us that ability to repent, then why doesn’t He give it to everyone?”

    I can’t answer that question except to say that it is His pleasure to do all His Holy will; in the end, to some (those who eventually believe) He has should mercy, and to others (those who never believe) He will have shown His justice, and somehow, some way (we don’t understand now) God will be more glorified by showing both His justice and mercy than if He had only shown mercy.

    you said, “we have ALL sinned and come short of the glory of God. God loved the whole world that He gave His Son for it.”

    John 3:16 has nothing to do with the extent of the atonement, context, context, context. The greek phrase that is translated to “whosoever” in English is hina pas ho pesteuo and it literally means, “all the believing ones”, or “all of those believing”.

    you said, “You cannot command someone to do something they are incapable of doing except ofcourse when the one commanding gives them the ability to obey that command. Which means it isn’t OUR obedience anymore is it?”

    No, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t our obedience. I obey because I’ve been granted the ability to do so.

    you said, “Adam had a choice to obey or disobey God in the beginning, and he chose to disobey. He had the free will to do so, he lost eternal life on a paradise earth and reaped death and disease,”

    true, Adam did, but the curse placed us in bondage, outside the intervention of the Holy Spirit, none would choose to believe. That’s part of the curse.

    “but now man still has a free will to choose to obey or disobey God,”

    No, actually the bible testifies to the opposite, only those who are saved have the ability to please God or obey His commands in faith, hence “dead in trespasses and sin”.

    you said, “otherwise we end up just being puppets on strings waiting for God to pull the right string for us to repent.
    THAT is not the God I believe in.”

    What do you think election means, predestination, etc? If the God you believe isn’t required to act specifically in the heart of an individual in order for him to believe, then your theology of salvation is sub-biblical.

    I don’t mean to sound harsh 🙂

  107. jAsOn said

    Zerxil,

    you said, “I think its great that he could make mistakes, But he didn’t in the theology department. If you have to do something twice, the first time wasn’t done completely right.”

    You do realize that what you are suggesting, that Christ (either in His manhood or Godhood) could do something “wrong” is a heresy?

    If something is not done completely right, then something about it is wrong, and the act of doing or thinking something wrong or incompletely(making a mistake if you will) is a sin.

  108. Zerxil said

    After that he put [his] hands ‘again’ upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

  109. Zerxil said

    So everytime I make a mistake, it is a sin? Are you serious?

  110. jAsOn said

    the universe is covered in sin b/c the fall…thats why the gospel is such good news!

  111. Zerxil said

    SO IF I PUNCH THE WRONG LETTER IN TYPING i JUST SINNED…

  112. jAsOn said

    typing in the wrong letter is a result of the fall

    the illustration is a bit crude, but do you think you will be able to type the wrong letter in in eternity? Of course not, so what will have changed, the effects of the curse to enable things like that to happen will no longer exist.

  113. Maz said

    Jason: I could answer what you have said, especially about the Greek in John 3 v 16, but I’m going to leave this question because it’s not the subject here. (I know I brought it up but that was in response to something on your link).
    I have recently debated this subject in depth with someone else and neither of us were getting anywhere and I don’t want to (as I originally said) get into deep debate again , so I am resisting the urge to say any more on the matter.

  114. jAsOn said

    ok

  115. Zerxil said

    Looking up he replied, “I see people looking like trees and walking.”
    25
    Then he laid hands on his eyes a ‘second’ time and he saw clearly; his sight was restored and he could see everything distinctly.

    Jesus laid his hands on this man twice…

    107 “If something is not done completely right, then something about it is wrong, and the act of doing or thinking something wrong or incompletely(making a mistake if you will) is a sin.”

  116. Zerxil said

    112 nope, because Ill have perfect voice recognition software…

    99 Jason on post 97 where are these translations wrong? oh, these are from mark. Sorry I guess I sinned again in your eyes…

  117. H-Hunter said

    Dr. Brown, what if Hitler was on the stage and he was doing all these so-called “miracles” in Jesus’ name, would you believe he was of God? We still haven’t seen 1 legitimate healing, if so, I’d like proof. How many of those 60k people went home only to have their pain come back? I’ve heard stories of this happening by Justin Peters, he’s in a wheelchair, went to FL, and asked a bunch of people once they got down from the stage if they were better and none of them were any better than before. Watch how Todd manipulates these poor people when he’s up there, he puts words into their mouths every time, he guides the conversation so it looks like everything is ok. Everything we’ve seen has been something you can’t see, headaches, ringing in the ears, cancer, etc. Why do they turn down all the people in wheelchairs? Have you seen the videos of them “screening” the people at this show? Let’s not forget that there will be “lying signs and wonders” too. The devil disguises himself as an angel of light, just like with Moses and the Pharaoh’s men, they did just what Moses did, up to a point, I’m sure the devil is having a field day. My question is this, if Todd makes one false prophecy or prediction, isn’t he to be dismissed per Duet.18? Todd just doesn’t do one thing weird, un-Biblical, he does many many things that are NOT Biblical, trips to heaven, talking to angels on more than one occasion, hitting people in the face, kneeing people in the gut etc. I don’t need to see his whole message to find out that I don’t agree with him, I don’t have to kill myself to know that suicide is bad, do I? When I read verses like 2 Tim 4:2, this is exactly what is going on with these people that are involved with this stuff. Why does God supposedly tell him one thing one day, and then tells somebody else in his gang something different the next? I really don’t know what else to say that would convince you or anybody else that this man is a false teacher to the hilt. I’m just so frustrated with all this, why? why do people fall for this stuff??? Test all things in light of Scripture, none of what Todd is doing lines up with Scripture, none.

  118. H-Hunter said

    Zerxil, I agree with Jason on this one, Jesus never made any “mistakes”, dangerous claim there my friend.

  119. Zerxil said

    118 please read mark 8:20-38 & tell me where i’m wrong.

  120. Zerxil said

    maz said she could read the greek (at least I think she did, ADB probably can too.)

  121. Zerxil said

    suicide, the other unpardonable sin…unless you believe in indulgences and the thought underlining them.

  122. jAsOn said

    Zerxil,

    Im not trying to call you out as a sinner…Lord knows im probably a greater one than you. But a flippant attitude towards our own sin and sin as a universal condition is a sin in itself. Maybe you haven’t really taken sin seriously, or maybe you have at one time but need to do it once again.

    Were you asking a serious question about the words of Mark or just sarcasm? I never questioned Marks words or their authority, but we must always interpret the more difficult passages of scripture in light of the clearer understandings of scripture, i.e., we know through all of scripture that Christ (as man or God) could never do any single thing wrong, or else He would not have succeeded where Adam failed. The effects that original sin cause on the ability of individuals to do things without error, completely, or w/o mistakes, did not affect Christ; Christ could not have even had the ability to make a mistake, do something on accident, do something incompletely or in error, thus we need to read Mark 8:24-25 in that light, and have our understanding of that passage informed by our systematic understanding of Christ’s nature.

  123. jAsOn said

    Zerxil,

    where in God’s word does it call suicide unpardonable?

    also, given the line of logic you seem to have embraced, lets imagine isolating Deut. 6:, “4”Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might”

    One might come to the conclusion from this passage alone (without a systematic study of the nature of God) that God is not triune.

  124. jAsOn said

    Concerning Todd B.

    He actually claims to have visited Heaven? Did He see God, why was he not consumed or fully sanctified, if he actually claims to have this I think that alone is enough to run in the other direction. And don’t think just because Paul reluctantly testified to his “trip to Heaven” that anyone else may even make that claim, not even any of the other Apostles or church fathers claimed to make such a trip. The preparation Christ made of Paul for his special ministry included many special provences.

    I also wonder why, if Fresh Fire ministries claims “furthur revelation” they aren’t writting those events down and holding them on the same level of authority as the scriptures?

  125. Zerxil said

    I never said mistakes were sinful. You did. If you don’t make mistakes you won’t grow. I apologize Todd. If your trying something that your not comfortable with (or just new to you) you will make mistakes. Your delivery needed work, and I think you are on the right track. Just don’t cause any physical harm to people & don’t say they are healed unless you know for sure.

    It was not a ‘difficult’ passage, he laid his hands on twice, twice again.

  126. Zerxil said

    124 Todd never said he saw God, He heard him. Todd does on the other hand state that he goes to heaven quite often, and you can too!

  127. H-Hunter said

    Jason, I think you and I are on the same page 🙂 We’re few in numbers, but yes, Todd does claim to have been to heaven and seen Jesus:

  128. Zerxil said

    123 Don’t you have to ask for your sins to be forgiven? You have to mean it. You can’t do that if your dead. Unless there was an imbalance in the brain, than it might not be a sin. I mean God is not going to punish you for something you can’t control. If he does, well I try to limit myself to 1 herasey per month.

  129. Zerxil said

    123 you mean like how the Jews pictured him?

  130. H-Hunter said

    Here’s a great blog:

    http://thelawmanchronicles.blogspot.com/2008/06/heroin-for-spiritually-weak.html

  131. jAsOn said

    Zerxil,

    Obviously Mark 8:24-25 presents some sort of difficultly when isolated, b/c you used it to say that Jesus made a mistake.

    Regarding the Jewish understanding of God as revealed in the OT, God has always been a triune God, and through progressive revelation we now have the full revelation of God that explains to us that God is a triune God, one in essence, three in person.

    So Todd goes to heaven and never sees God or enters His presence…I wonder what makes him so sure it’s heaven? I’m skeptical at best, and afraid at worst.

  132. Barney said

    Those videos give me the creeps.

    With the old Medicine Shows where the salesman pitched his Snake Oil Tonic, just like in today’s miracle healing services, there were always a few people in the crowd who refused to buy the stuff. Who else is not buying this guy’s Snake Oil Tonic?

    Does Michael Brown have something to sell? Does Stu? It helps to bear that question in mind when listening to the “Truth” sometimes.

  133. Barney,

    Something to sell? Is this a serious question? Check out the actual show, and then draw your own conclusion, OK? 🙂

    And may I ask you if you believe that the gifts of the Spirit, including divine healing, are for today?

    Dr. Brown

  134. H-Hunter,

    Actually, there are quite a few documented healings in Lakeland, including people I know, and these very days, a correspondent with a major newspaper has been working on getting detailed verification for some of the more extreme claims. But the real reason I have interacted with you is not to defend Todd Bentley. In fact, I have not made a single public statement about Lakeland to date, just FYI. The problem is that you make broad, sweeping statements that are just plain wrong, and that is why I have taken the time to interact with you.

    You would do well to read what Jonathan Edwards said during the Great Awakening, and you would also do well not to say that people are not of God just because some of their practices may offend you. Please show me where the Scriptures say to test things based on whether someone claimed to talk with an angel (in the Bible, that certainly happened) or whether their methods of ministering to people offend someone (again, please cite specific scriptures).

    As I said on my show, there are several surefire ways to evaluate a so-called move of God: 1) Does it exalt the Jesus of the Scriptures? 2) Does it create in people a hunger for the Word and a desire to submit to the Word? 3) Does it lead people to repent of sin? 4) Does it produce a burden for the lost?

    If these things are the fruit that comes out of a spiritual movement, then it is definitely from God, since Satan can’t cast out Satan and since the flesh cannot produce spiritual fruit.

    I truly hope this helps you in your understanding.

    Dr. Brown

  135. H-Hunter said

    Dr. Brown, I realize you haven’t said anything about Lakeland, but you haven’t said anything against it, plus what I originally heard on air the day you were on seemed to indicate that what was going on was ok. I’m not the only one saying this is not of God, tons of people are saying that. And why do you think there are lots of people against it? If it matches up with the Bible, then people should be encouraging this, but since it doesn’t, people are exposing it for what it is, a false revival. And I have no problem saying that. I really can’t figure out what else it would take to convince you or anybody else for that matter, I’ve shown you Scriptures, videos, statements etc. I realize you were part of the Brownsville Revival and I’ve seen what came out of that, yes, I’ve heard things and have seen things, lots didn’t line up with Scripture either. Laughing, squealing, barking, slain in the Spirit, etc. None of that is in the Bible, even Charismatics even agree with that, you can’t find any Scriptures to back up these things. I’m not talking about the charismatic “gifts”, what Todd is doing is extra-Biblical, you can’t deny that. The Bible says we’re to be sober-minded not so-called “drunk in the spirit” which is totally taken out of context. People were saying that the people speaking in different languages (tongues) seemed drunk only because it was weird at such an early time in the morning. That verse in Acts has been taken out of context so much it’s crazy. People find any part of some small verse and twist it to make it what they want, that’s called, “eisegesis”.

    I would love to read about the Great Awakening, some day, I have tons of books on the waiting list, actually, your office contacted me and offered me your book, I gladly accepted your kind offer, thank you.

    I agree with your 4 points regarding a revival, but, you must have the correct Jesus, I know that’s a big claim to make about this “revival”, but you aren’t going to get false teachers to have a Satan revival are you? No, that’s why they’re called “wolves in sheep’s clothing”. And, that’s why the Bible says that the devil disguises himself as an “angel of light”. That’s the problem here with Mr. Bentley, I don’t know if he is willingly deceiving people or not, but either way, when you test what he does in light of Scripture, it doesn’t match up, not at all. You have to look at the whole picture, not just one or two things the guy says, remember, a broken clock is always right 2 times a day.

    I’ll comment more tomorrow, going to bed, this is fun though, it helps sharpen my “skills” for the Glory of God!

  136. jAsOn said

    Has there been any documentation in Lakeland or Brownsville of someone having an appendage regenerated? That would be extreme.

  137. Tripp said

    Dr. Brown – Barney (aka Fred) doesn’t believe any of this. He is an atheist. He would probably much rather see Truth Talk Live taken off the air completely, yet he continues to visit the site and post comments. You would think he would just choose not to listen or visit the site. Strange, isn’t it?

  138. Maz said

    I have watched most of the meetings on GOD TV each day. I find the worship a continuous praise and adoration of JESUS. They cry JESUS! They lift up the name of JESUS. It is NOT Todd Bentley they worship, and in any case, this revival, if that is truly what it is, is not of Todd Bentley, but of the Holy Spirit. If the devil wanted to dissuade people from believing in Jesus and worshipping Him and loving on Him, then he is going about it the wrong way! I have personally been inspired and challenged to get into Gods Presence and get totally revived in my spiritual life.

    Yes, there are some that don’t seem to be healed, I do find this a problem sometimes, especially when it is on the platform infront of everyone, but there are scriptural reasons for some of these. I know that if Jesus was standing physically on that platform each night, I guess He would lay hands on people and they would be healed instantly. Not partially….25 percent, 50 percent….go away and……..never hear any more about it.
    But it is obvious a lot of people are being healed. If you watch the GOD TV you will see a strip going along the bottom with testimonies of healings and other answers to prayer from people all over the world. And not just healings, salvation too.
    So if the devil is in this, he is not helping his cause.

  139. ADB said

    Early in the Great Awakening, when the Spirit came to Edwards’ church in Northampton, MA, people were in the aisles and on the floor crying out for mercy during his sermon. This happened repeatedly, along with more “interesting” things during the 1st and 2nd Great Awakenings. No one disputes the validity of them because of these happenings. We probably shouldn’t asess so-called awakenings or revivals solely upon them. We don’t want to be in the position of limiting how the Holy Spirit can work in a person’s life. I’m not defending Lakeland, like I said I’m not in a position to judge that; and if anything am skeptical about it. However, I also believe that it’s not our place to say that the Spirit can’t lead people to fall prostrate on the floor, speak in tongues, or even dance (Miriam and David both danced in the OT when filled with the Spirit). Just because it does not normally happen in one of our “MethoBapteRian” churches it is not necessarily of the Devil.

    Just being curmudgeonly!
    Best Wishes

  140. Maz said

    ADB: I would agree with that. We often want to tell God how to do things when the Bible tells us that Gods ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. How we think a revival should be or look is limited to our past experiences, but the three points that Dr. Michael Browne made in #134 are crucial to judge if something is of God or not. The revival in Lakeland does appear to meet each criteria, no matter about Todd Bentley and his tatoos or his personality. This is not about Todd Bentley, it’s about JESUS.

  141. Maz said

    Sorry, not 3 points but 4.

  142. jAsOn said

    An excerpt from the sermon that God used to spur The Great Awakening:

    “The bow of God’s wrath is bent, and the arrow made ready on the string; and justice directs the bow to your heart, and strains at the bow: and it is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, and that of an angry God, without any promise or obligation at all, that keeps the arrow one moment from being made drunk with your blood.
    Thus all you that never passed under a great change of heart, by the mighty power of the Spirit of God upon your souls; all you that were never born again, and made new creatures, and raised from being dead in sin, to a state of new, and before altogether unexperienced light and life, are in the hands of an angry God. However you may have reformed your life in many things and many have had religious affections, and may keep up a form of religion in your families and closets, and in the house of God, it is nothing but His mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting destruction. However unconvinced you may now be of the truth of what you hear, by and by you will be fully convinced of it. Those that are gone from being in the like circumstances with you, see that it was so with them; for destruction came suddenly upon most of them; when they expected nothing of it, and while they were saying, Peace and safety, Now they see, that those things on which they depend for peace and safety, were nothing but thin air and empty shadows.” – Edwards, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”

  143. Maz said

    Jason: Great words. No doubt people were convicted under such a sermon. But in the Bible God does talk about doing a ‘new thing’, which means, He doesn’t always do things the same way He always has.
    Did you watch any of the Pensecola Revival with Steve Hill? If he preached anything, he preached the uncompromising gospel in no uncertain terms and people were convicted, falling on their knees and their faces before God in repentance, and running to the altar to be saved at the call. I call that a revival.

  144. jAsOn said

    Maz,

    I wasn’t intending to suggest that God only initiates spiritual awakening by the Law alone, its just that we’ve heard this present “revival” set beside The Great Awakening several times, and I wanted to present a contrast.

    And the portion of Edwards sermon I cited didn’t contain the gospel, just the Law, which is only used to kill us. The gospel proper (that which makes us alive) is that Christ obeyed the Law perfectly for sinners and suffered the penalty due to sinners, and if one repents and believes then one will be clothed in His righteousness, and made just before God.

  145. H-Hunter,

    H-Hunter,

    Now you have my interest, since you mentioned “sharpening your skills.” 🙂 Time permitting, I’m going to help you! Try to listen in to today’s show on the Line of Fire (7:00-8:00, PM, EST); you can listen online or on the Truth Network (not Sirius for the moment). In fact, I’d welcome your call at 866-34TRUTH (after 7:15). You could raise your issues and concerns, and then I could take the time to answer you from a biblical and historic viewpoint. If you’re not able to call, I might read some of the comments here (with no names, of course) online and respond to them. That failing, I’ll try to post one last time in a bit more detail, since up to now I have actually not made an attempt to prove anything, but for the record, I will.

    One quick note: I was in more than 1,100 services in Brownsville, and your description of the services bear virtually no resemblance to what took place night after night. The second-hand reports of critics as opposed to the first-hand reports of eyewitnesses were quite skewed, and it’s a shame that so many innocent people believed the distortions.

  146. jAsOn said

    Dr. Brown,

    Have you read “Revival & Revivalism” by Ian Murray?

    For other folks, here is a brief description of the book:

    “Iain Murray has performed a real service to the people of God in this new book which traces the history of revival in America from the time of Samuel Davies in the mid-1700’s to the New York Revival of 1858. He carefully presents the biblical and historical distinction between revival, in which God moves unexpectedly to pour new spiritual life into His people, and revivalism, in which men manipulate circumstances to produce a desired, but superficial, effect. This history of revival in America focuses on events leading to the Second Great Awakening between 1800 and 1820 and the beginnings of defective revivalistic techniques during that era. Charles Finney appears as a spokesman for revivalism and Arminian perspectives, and the stage is set for the rapid demise of scripturally based church life in America.

    Murray’s thorough research and insightful analysis help us better to understand our American spiritual heritage, however marred it may be. It sobers us to think of the great men of God who walked this same land and labored to maintain God’s truth in the early days of our country, and how far we have descended from their biblical zeal for God-honoring revival.”

  147. Barney said

    Re:133

    Michael, I have listened to one of your shows before and I drew some conclusions, as you say, from that and from the videos posted by H-Hunter.

    Skeptically,
    Barney

  148. H-hunter said

    Dr. Brown, I won’t be able to call in live so please quote away. Can I listen to it later online, if so, where?

  149. Barney said

    Re: 137

    Tripp,

    I am not an atheist. I listen to Truth Talk Live as I am driving home from work each day. I post here to try and counter the fundamentalist point of view.

    Hope this really bugs you.

    Best,
    Barney

  150. ADB said

    Maz, after our sparring over age of the earth, it’s good to agree on something:) It is never a good idea to limit how the Lord can work, granting of course that a current work of the Spirit isn’t going to contradict scripture. I think that much of what people think the Bible is very clear on it says nothing about. For instance, folks get up in arms over some kinds of music in the church, but there’s Biblical warrant for flutes, stringed instruments, cymbals, and trumpets, but none for pianos or organs.

    Jason,

    Good points about revival and revivalism. I’m not familiar with Murray’s book, but it sounds good. Another good one on the “Great Revival” of 1800-1805 that was a precursor to the 2nd Great Awakening is “The Great Revival” by Boles. I’m inclined to believe that the early stages of the 2nd Great Awakening were genuine, but you’re right that Finney turned evangelism in into gimmickry. An interesting thing with Edwards is that he typically preached by reading straight from a manuscript, and was apparently pretty dull in delivery. Another sermon from early in the 1st Great Awakening on justification by faith also resulted in folks all over the floor crying for mercy.

    Something else to consider regarding this whole topic, is that even genuine revivals can have harmful side-effects. Whitefield in the 1740s and 1750s was by all accounts the best preacher of his age. (He almost got a thoroughly skeptical Benjamin Franklin to convert!) Yet his evangelism damaged a lot of churches when folks who had heard the great preacher suddenly realized that their faithful pastor back at the home church wasn’t all that hot and just started staying home on Sundays. The unintended side-effects aren’t a sign that this wasn’t from God, but simply that the churches then were filled with flawed humans just like churches today are.

    Best Wishes,
    The Curmudgeonly Pastor

  151. ADB said

    Barney (aka Fred),

    You beat me to the punch. I was going to post that you aren’t the same guy that got banned for being belittling and beligerant. Good to have you back.

  152. Zerxil said

    No he is the previous Fred. Or the blogger formally known as Fred. I recall him stating that he was an atheist or at least I thought he did.

  153. Barney said

    No, I am a Christian. I wouldn’t have said that I am an atheist; may have said agnostic, perhaps.

    How you doing, ADB? I still have “Mere Christianity” on my bedside table waiting to be read. Wasn’t it you that suggested it?

    best,
    Barney

  154. ADB said

    I can’t remember whether I had suggested “Mere Christianity,” but I’ll happily take credit for it. You absolutely can’t go wrong with C.S. Lewis.

  155. Yes, I read Murray’s Revival and Revivalism. I appreciated many of his points but disagreed with his overall assessment of Finney, plus I do not share his strongly Reformed presuppositions.

    For those wanting to listen to my nightly shows this week (7-8 EST) dealing with Ten Reasons Why We Must Have Revival, they can be heard live online at wtru.com, along with on the Truth Networks. Within a few days, they are archived on my Line of Fire website with an accompanying blog at: http://lineoffireradio.wordpress.com/posts/.

  156. Tripp said

    Hey Barney,

    I apologize for that. Obviously, I was confused about who was who. Thanks for hoping that it bugs me. That’s very Christian of you.

    Tripp

  157. jAsOn said

    Dr Brown,

    I’m curious why you disagreed with Murray’s assessment of Finney, and to which presuppositions you are referring.

    Finney denied the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, and I say that if he persisted in that belief until death, then he would not even have been a Christian, because he would not have believed the gospel.

    Regarding Charles Finney, taken from his systematic theology.

    “V. The next inquiry is into the design of the atonement.
    1. Christ owed obedience to the moral law both as God and man. He was under as much obligation to be perfectly benevolent as any moral creature is. It was therefore impossible for him to perform any works of supererogation; that is, so far as obedience to law was concerned, he could, neither as God nor as man, do any thing more than his duty.
    2. Had he obeyed for us, he would not have suffered for us. Were his obedience to be substituted for our obedience, he need not certainly have both fulfilled the law for us, as our substitute under a covenant of works, and at the same time have suffered, a substitute for the penalty of the law.
    3. If he obeyed the law as our substitute, then why should our own personal obedience be insisted upon as a sine qua non of our salvation?”

    Finney thinks that Christ’s duty was simply to fulfill the law perfectly for Himself alone. He rejects very clearly that comforting biblical idea of double imputation, where Christ not only obeyed the law for us, meriting the righteousness God demands, but He also satisfied the wrath of God for those who believe so that God could forgive our sins. He continues by insisting that God demands a person’s own righteous as a sine qua non of our own salvation—what real difference is there between Finney’s view of the design of the atonement and that view espoused in the Roman Catholic catechism, very little to be sure. The question he asks above sounds as though it could be asked by those who even today reject the Lordship of Christ over believers. Finney continues again:

    “4. The idea that any part of the atonement consisted in Christ’s obeying the law for us, and in our stead and behalf, represents God as requiring:
    (1.) The obedience of our substitute.
    (2.) The same suffering as if no obedience had been rendered.
    (3.) Our repentance.
    (4.) Our personal obedience.
    (5.) And then represents him as, after all, ascribing our salvation to grace. Strange grace this, that requires a debt to be paid several times over before the obligation is discharged!”

    I’m sorry Dr. Brown, but these aren’t the words of a man who believes the gospel of Christ.

  158. H-Hunter said

    Mr. Brown, all I had to do to find out about the Brownsville Revival was to do a little Google search, there are tons and tons of articles of people that were there at the “revival”, not just hearsay. Hank Hannegraff is of course one source: http://www.equip.org/atf/cf/%7B9C4EE03A-F988-4091-84BD-F8E70A3B0215%7D/DP244-3.pdf

    And, http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=brownsville+revival&btnG=Google+Search&domains=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deceptioninthechurch.com&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deceptioninthechurch.com

    There are others, but because I’m a nice guy, I won’t post them right now.

  159. jAsOn said

    Some more words from Charles Finney’s systematic theology:

    “There is a class of scripture texts which have been quoted by antinomians in support of the doctrine that salvation is not conditionated upon personal holiness or upon a return to full obedience. It has been found very convenient by many who were lovers of sin and never conscious of personal holiness, to adopt the idea of an imputed holiness, contenting themselves with an outward righteousness imputed to them instead of submitting by faith to have the righteousness of God wrought in them. Unwilling to be personally pious they betake themselves to an imputed piety.

    But if Christ owed personal obedience to the moral law, then his obedience could no more than justify himself. It can never be imputed to us. He was bound for himself to love God with all his heart and soul and mind and strength, and his neighbor as himself, He did no more than this. He could do no more. It was naturally impossible, then, for him to obey in our behalf. This doctrine of the imputation of Christ’s obedience to the moral law to us, is based upon the absurd assumptions, (1.) That the moral law is founded in the arbitrary will of God, and (2.) That of course Christ, as God, owed no obedience to it; both of which assumptions are absurd. But if these assumptions are given up, what becomes of the doctrine of an imputed righteousness as a condition of a forensic justification? “It vanishes into thin air.””

    Finney promoted a salvation that was conditioned on personal holiness or a “return to full obedience”—whatever that means. To even suggest that one can obey the law of God in full, not only makes that person a liar but also confirms his gross misunderstanding of either the law or his own sin. Oh how desperate a life we would lead if it was through our own holiness we believe that we will find favor in the eyes of God, by meriting our own righteousness for which He calls us just. Only to find ourselves condemned to Hell in the end because our best efforts just weren’t enough. So we also see his logically necessary rejection of imputation, which in turn leads to a salvation conditioned upon the holiness generated by individual sinners. He then criticizes those who uphold a salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in the finished work of Christ alone by calling them antinomians. He may remind one of the statements made to Luther by Erasmus wherein Erasmus said that a sola fide theology would facilitate mass immorality; to which Luther replied in character, so be it! So Finney actually adopts, consciously or not, a theology that surpassed even Rome in the direction of synergism, he actually promoted a monergism of the reformed polar opposite; one that says it is man alone who works in salvation.

  160. H-Hunter,

    As an eyewitness, I can assure you before God that the impressions you can get from scattered accounts — including Hank — are completely contrary to the day and night realities that we saw and experienced. Plus, every single service for more than five years, plus hundreds of my day sessions are on video and fully available. You can believe what you want, friend, but the facts are the facts, including hundreds of people who were saved or transformed through the revival and then went on to pour themselves out on the mission field.

    The last thing that I’m going to do here is to try to prove to you the reality of the revival in Pensacola, since you were not there and I was, along with hundreds of thousands of others. However, one thing you will learn quite quickly: Just as critics try to discredit Jesus and the Scriptures, just as critics try to discredit every major revival and awakening in history, so also critics will try to discredit Brownsville. As you will see from the documentation in the Revival Answer Book, the fruit of the revivals outlives the criticisms.

  161. JAsOn,

    Hopefully, I’ll be able to get back to you on this soon, but my schedule doesn’t permit extensive blogging on my end, except on my own website, and even that is limited.

    However, if you don’t believe Finney was a Christian, then we’ll just leave things there, since we are obviously worlds apart on that one.

  162. H-Hunter said

    So, Dr. Brown, do you or don’t you agree with what’s going on in Lakeland, FL?

  163. jAsOn said

    Dr. Brown,

    Do you believe in substitutionary atonement?

  164. Jason,

    Absolutely! I have always believed in substitutionary atonement, although I do know that there have been some attempts by other Christians to redefine the nature of Christ’s atonement. For me, the principles of substitution is quite foundational in the Scriptures, and I use it often in my witnessing to Jews.

    H-Hunter,

    From what I can observe by the fruit of those attending the meetings in Lakeland, God is touching many people and their love for Jesus is being renewed. It also appears that there are genuine healings taking place, some of which are now medically documented. I do not believe this is counterfeit.

    However, I have only attended one service with Todd (here in Concord) and have only watched one sermon from Lakeland, so I certainly can’t comment on what is being preached every night. Do I differ with some of the revelatory claims that have been made in the past or even at Lakeland? Yes, I do differ with some of them, but in keeping with the NT principle, I test all things and hold fast to the good. And where there is a lack of wisdom, I pray for maturity to come, just as I do in my own life and ministry.

    I simply find no evidence that there is “another gospel” being preached by Todd — as if there was another way to salvation outside of repentance towards God and faith in Jesus (Acts 20:21) — or “another Jesus” being exalted. The doctrinal statement on Todd’s website glorifies the Jesus of the Scriptures, the worship every night glorifies this same Jesus (not the Jesus of the Mormons or the other cults), and people who are touched there come away talking about Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, not angels and not Todd.

    That being said, I have no issue with people being cautious, and I have no issue with being working through things scripturally and coming to different conclusions than me, but unless there is explicit Scripture that can be adduced against Todd’s ministry as a whole (and I do not believe that to be the case), we will have to wait and see the fruit, correct? Also, I encourage you to remember Jonathan Edwards wise exhortation to judge by the whole not by the part.

  165. jAsOn said

    Dr. Brown,

    I’m glad to hear that you believe in substitutionary atonement, and I hope it didn’t offend you that I even asked. I too believe that substitution is foundational, and that’s what confused me about your earlier mention of Finney, who rejected it. Just for further clarification, you would mean by “substitutionary atonement” that Christ lived the perfect life for us and died the death due to us, in our place; as our substitute, so God could call us just, right?

  166. Jason,

    Yes, right.:) And no offense at all with your asking. As for Finney, I’d love to take that up again when we can, but it will have to wait for now.

    Blessings!

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  172. Prophet Henry said

    To find the narrow way is not easy. He who finds it will see it is not easy to walk on. One word to follow the way is holiness ( seperated unto Him) We need to break clean from Babilon and the whore church. TV and the media, even God TV is use by satan to confuse you and bring deception. Go back to the word of YHWH and follow him. Seek and you will find the truth. Hebr 11v6.
    I can give you the truth, but I learned one thing. The pearl is to costly to through at the swines. You seek as I have and go in the Hebrew and Greek language and keep on seeking.

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