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Into all the world…..except?

Posted by truthtalklive on May 28, 2008

Should Christians ever refrain from evangelizing? Franklin Graham is under fire for comments he recently made regarding evangelism and the 2008 olympics in China. What do you think?

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26 Responses to “Into all the world…..except?”

  1. zerxil said

    Where did John state that he’s telling Christians to go “Into all the world”?

  2. zerxil said

    n/m

  3. jAsOn said

    The Apostles, after being “given a law” that said they were not to preach Jesus the Christ any more, did it anyway.

  4. Fred said

    On the radio show about this, callers claimed they would and people should break the law and preach the gospel in China. Freedom of religion means the freedom to choose your religion without penalty. But for a Christian freedom of religion means to ACT on your religion without penalty.

    This interpretation means that a believer can violate secular laws with impunity or refuse to meet the job requirements of his employer while still expecting the same salary as everyone else. This effectively creates a religious caste system, where the religious caste has more privileges than everyone else.

    Once people think that there are some divinely given laws that supercede the laws of the land they become very dangerous. Adolph Hitler was convinced that his Christian calling was to exterminate the Jews and he used the Bible and Jesus to defend his position. “I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator; by defending myself against the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord…I would like to thank Providence and the Almighty for choosing me of all people…” – Adolph Hitler.

    Man-made laws apply to everyone and supposed God-given laws apply to no one. People just apply them to themselves because other PEOPLE have frightened them into doing so.

  5. Alex said

    If you don’t mind spending some time in jail and looking like a crazy person, go for it.

  6. jAsOn said

    Fred,

    The comparison of Hitler to Christians is absurd; Hitler was not a Christian and no meaningful interpretation of the OT or NT would warrant actions such as his.

    At work, Christians should do their jobs and get paid for that, but if in normal conversation (that type which doesn’t violate the efficient production required in a job setting) belief systems, morals or ethics is brought up, then no one from any creed or confession is prohibited from proclaiming what they believe and that they believe it is true, even to the exclusion of the belief of others. Christians aren’t asking for more privaleges than others, just the same privileges.

    As for disobeying the civil laws in China, the Christian will proclaim the gospel, given the chance in normal conversation, but not with the expectation of immunity where others d not have it, but expecting the penalty of the law as a consequence of their refusal to sin against God instead of men, and rejoicing in the fact that they have shared in the suffering of Christ.

    It is natural for you to misunderstand the motivations of those who have been redeemed.

  7. Maz said

    #3, and they often suffered for it. Christians are suffering for their faith in China, and Graham refuses to preach the gospel because the Chinese government don’t want him to?! Would his father have agreed with that?

  8. Maz said

    #4 Adolf Hitler was no Christian (not in the true sense) or he wouldn’t have done what he did.
    There is no love in torturing, starving, and killing millions of innocent people just because they were’nt as perfect as he wanted them to be. He hated the Jews.

  9. Fred said

    Anyone who says Adolph was not a Christian and that Christian fundamentalism is not what caused the Holocaust is either grossly misinformed or a liar. I am so sick of hearing that Hitler believed in evolution and this is what caused him to go mad. Hitler insisted that Christian creationism be taught in the German public schools and it was until 1961. Hitler was a creationist who spoke against the teaching of evolution and against secularism and atheism. The proof of this is in several places on the Internet.

    Hitler’s speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany. Nazism presents an embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of their faith So they try to pin him on other theistic views. The following words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and reveal the strength of his Christian feelings:

    “National Socialism is not a cult-movement– a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship… We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else– in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will– not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.” -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938. [Christians have always accused Hitler of believing in pagan cult mythology. What is written here clearly expresses his stand against cults.]

    “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 [This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism. Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people worshipped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy. The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.]

    Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:

    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.” –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

    “Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition.” -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which Christianity was founded.)

    “The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.” -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (The idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this “tradition” up until the 20th century.)

    “With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people.” -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is common in war for one race to rape another so that they can “defile” the race and assimilate their own. Hitler speaks about this very tactic here.)

    “The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present- day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties– and this against their own nation.”–Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    “…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion.” -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where humankind is cast from Eden for their sins. Hitler compares this to the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.)

    “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    “The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (This quote is very interesting for it disperses the idea that Hitler raged war due to being an Aryan supremacist. He states quite clearly that he has a problem with Jews for their belief not race. That is why many German Jews died in WW2 regardless of their Aryan nationality.)

    “Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (Here Hitler is admitting that his war against the Jews were so successful because of his strong Christian Spirituality.)

    Quotes from Other Nazis about Hitler and Religion:

    “Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Gobbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide.” (Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer page 95-96)

  10. jAsOn said

    fred,

    Hitler’s actions clearly disqualify any claim he may have made to be a Christian. Hitler’s and Nazi views and interpretations are not accurate out workings of Christianity but are the insane skewing of the intentions of the writers of scripture. If you think that right Christian doctrine necessarily and logically leads to Nazism, then you are sadly unaware of the teachings contained in the Bible. Hitler was no more a true Christian that Jim Jones, et al.

  11. Fred said

    Jason, the Crusades, Inquisitions, witch burning, torturing and murdering of scientists, anti-Semitism and cultural prejudice are all the results of the Christian system of dogmatic superstitions. Adolph Hitler was a follower of Martin Luther as we can clearly see from Luther’s own words:

    ‘All the blood kindred of Christ burn in hell, and they are rightly served, even according to their own words they spoke to Pilate …

    ‘Verily a hopeless, wicked, venomous and devilish thing is the existence of these Jews, who for fourteen hundred years have been, and still are, our pest, torment and misfortune. They are just devils and nothing more.'(55)

    In the tract Concerning the Jews and Their Lies (published 1542) Luther wrote:

    “Firstly, their synagogues should be set on fire … Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed … Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds … Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more … Fifthly, passport and travelling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews … Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury … Seventhly, let the young and strong Jews and Jewesses be given the flail, the axe, the hoe, the spade, the distaff, and spindle, and let them earn their bread by the sweat of their noses … We ought to drive the rascally lazy bones out of our system … Therefore away with them …

    ‘To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden — the Jews.'(56)

    In a sermon shortly before his death he called for the immediate expulsion of all Jews from Germany.(57)

    Later, Luther’s anti-Semitic teachings were to be applied literally in the Third Reich.

    “Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason.”
    — Martin Luther

    “Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” — Martin Luther

    “Reason should be destroyed in all Christians.”
    — Martin Luther

    “Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil’s appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom … Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism… She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets.”
    — Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148

    “Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and … know nothing but the word of God.”— Martin Luther

    “What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church? […] a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.”— Martin Luther

    “Drive them [Jews] like mad dogs from our land… let not one of them live…” — Martin Luther

    Jason, it is quite obvious that the founder of Protestantism, your religion, was no different that Adolph Hitler when it came to dealing with the Jews. So trying to say that Hitler wasn’t a Christian when he followed the teachings of Martin Luther to the letter, your hero, is just a bold faced lie. Hitler roasted people who disagreed with him making him rather like Jesus wouldn’t you have to admit?

  12. Maz said

    There have been many atrocities done in the name of RELIGION, but no TRUE follower of Jesus Christ would EVER do anything as evil as Hitler did. People can call themselves Christian and go to Church and say religious things but what makes a Christian is having Jesus Christ in your life. When He LIVES in a person by the power of the Holy Spirit He changes that person FOR GOOD. Bit by bit we become like Jesus. But Jesus would never, never, never act like Hitler. He was LOVE incarnate.
    To lump all Christians together with insane fanatics of religion is totally in error and downright insulting to those who live their Christianity to care for and help others.

  13. Maz said

    The fact that Hitler murdered millions of JEWS in the holocaust should be a clear indication that he was not a Christian in the true Biblical sense, because He was killing GODS chosen people. And Jesus our Savior was a Jew also. His hatred of the Jews and his merciless treatment of them is enough to show what Hitlers true spiritual nature was.

  14. Fred said

    Maz you are ignoring the FACT that Hitler got his ideas right out of the Bible and from his and your hero Martin Luther himself. Martin Luther would have done the EXACT SAME THING to the Jews that Hitler did had it been within his power to do so. He certainly encouraged this with his writings and sermons. So, was the founder of Protestantism not a Christian too? Answer please.

  15. Maz said

    I believe Martin Luther did have an aversion to the Jews himself. And I wouldn’t presume to say what condition his heart was in or what his personal relationship with God was. All I can say is that he was fervent in his religion especially against the Catholic Church.

  16. jAsOn said

    Fred,

    Please provide sources for your Luther quotes.

    I don’t see how you can know for sure what Luther would have done. Please quote any where in the bible where those atrocities were sanctioned. Saying that Hitler followed the teachings of Luther to a “T” is silly. You have a very limited understanding of what Luther taught and I would gather that many of you quotes, if not all of them are taken out of context, or are not quoted from Luther’s writings themselves.

    Luther is not my hero, though I am protestant (I protest Rome’s view of justification) and I so believe that God used him to deliver the world from the bondage of a doctrine of justification by faith and works. Like all men, Luther was imperfect and we must go to the source (the bible) for doctrine and practice.

    Where did Jesus “roasted people who disagreed with him”?

    A Christian is one who believes they are a sinner helpless before God, having offended His holiness and in need of the righteousness that only Christ (God in the flesh) can provide, and He does so,by faith alone.

  17. Fred said

    Jason, I got my quotes from Luther’s own writings which are available in any public library and they are on the Internet. I know it is embarrassing for you to find out how evil the founder of your religion really was but you need to face up to this fact fella.
    Jason, are you saying that Jesus doesn’t send people to hell for not believing he existed? A Christian is someone who got his ideas about being a sinner from the words of OTHER PEOPLE. Don’t ever forget Jason, that OTHER PEOPLE put your religion in your head.

  18. Maz said

    The founder of our ‘religion’ is Jesus Christ.

  19. zerxil said

    I feel much freer now that I am certain the pope is the Antichrist.
    Martin Luther

    Nothing good ever comes of violence.
    Martin Luther

    Peace is more important than all justice; and peace was not made for the sake of justice, but justice for the sake of peace.
    Martin Luther

    To gather with God’s people in united adoration of the Father is as necessary to the Christian life as prayer.
    Martin Luther

    Whatever your heart clings to and confides in, that is really your God.
    Martin Luther

    War is the greatest plague that can afflict humanity, it destroys religion, it destroys states, it destroys families. Any scourge is preferable to it.
    Martin Luther

  20. Abigail said

    First, I want to encourage Fred to relax. Perhaps to further his understanding of Christianity he should read the Bible in conjunction with other sources. Research is a good way to articulate your point, and you need to be informed on all sides. The Bible is a wonderfully rich treasure that has baffled many minds, and humbled many hearts. Remember that mankind is inherently evil. Remember also that Christian’s are humans and we are not perfect. What we are is saved by grace. Throughout history and right up to today, we have Christians who are possessors (true believers in Christ, seeking to follow His example as best they can), and others who are only professors (giving lip service only).

    However, I think the topic of conversation was on Franklin Graham’s comments regarding not evangelizing during the Olympics. Franklin Graham and Samaritan’s Purse have made great strides in the realms of world evangelism, and disaster relief. I do not fault him for his comments, and I implore people to look at the bigger picture before getting angry. He has to consider the lives of those doing the witnessing, as well as the lives he will have the opportunity to reach with his various ministries (from Operation Christmas Child to disaster relief). I don’t believe for a second that he doesn’t want individuals to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but when confronted with a question like this in a communist country…what would you say knowing that you needed to maintain your relationships to further produce opportunities to share the Gospel?

  21. Zerxil said

    OK, I didn’t get that mad about Freds abusive, incorrect, or good posts. But this is getting aggravating. Why are we being punished? or is it just me?

  22. Takes a little longer for comments to be approved when every one has to be checked before being posted. Sorry about that, Zerxil. Bare with us.

    Moderator

  23. abc's said

    You know what they say, “When in Rome.”
    If you travel to another country and break their laws then you should be prepared to pay the consequences.

  24. Maz said

    Abc’s: We are not paying the consequences due to our breaking the laws, Fred broke the code and we are having to wait a lot longer to debate. Now I understand this must be necessary to keep people like Fred off here, but I am finding I can only blog once a day here now instead of 2 or 3. Can Stu explain why it takes that much longer? How does it work?

  25. Barney said

    “Bare with us.”

    Shocking!

  26. Maz said

    #24, actually I’v been able to get on twice today already!

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