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Should a Christian ever vote for a pro-abortion candidate? & Should Christians ever act Soap Operas

Posted by truthtalklive on May 23, 2008

Some of you are listening to the show on abortion with Greg Koukl, President of Stand to Reason (www.str.org) and Bob Enyart, Talk Show Host from Colorado (www.enyart.com)

The others are listening to the show about Christians and Soap Operas.

Ethical obstacle or evangelistic opportunity?

Related links:

www.goodnewsetc.com/052SND2.htm

www.thercg.org/questions/p152.a.html

www.kvii.com/community/press_release.aspx?id=75038

Listen to either show online after 6 pm EST.  at www.wtru.com

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40 Responses to “Should a Christian ever vote for a pro-abortion candidate? & Should Christians ever act Soap Operas”

  1. Kevin said

    In regards to your soap opera question. It seems that we as christian have difficulty understanding the freedom within christ. Paul talks much about our freedom ie:1corinthians10:23 “Everything is permissible”. We spend all our time using the second half of the verse “but not everything is beneficial” using it to discount the first half. We as being religious want rules for everyone to follow, seems same as the religious jews in Jesus time. Paul says much more in romans in regards to freedom and the law. The point being: go wherever God wants and stop worrying about sullying our own idea of self rightousness. Our spirituality is best measured by our pursuit (passion) for christ then by if we follow the “rules” that we make, or perceive. Go were God leads and let God take care of the rest.

  2. Zerxil said

    well sometimes when you vote you have to vote for unopposed people or your vote doesn’t go through.

  3. Richard said

    Never, ever.

  4. Fred said

    Christians only see one side of the abortion issue. There is another side that is never discussed in the Christian media. What pro-life Christians really wish to do is to force women taxpayers to suffer through a nine month pregnancy they do not want to endure and then give birth to a child they never want to see. Many atheists see it as nothing more than a male dominated religion simply trying to keep power out of the hands of women because Christians all seem to favor this war or any war really, so how can they be pro-life, some say. It’s a very difficult and complex issue.
    As an atheist and secular humanist, I like most secular humanists, find abortion appalling and I think women considering having an abortion should be offered some types of incentives to get them to reconsider. A woman who is in this situation for the first time should be offered some type of rather large monetary reward for having the child and letting one of the many many qualified loving couples waiting to adopt raise the child as their own. I bet 10 or 20 thousand bucks would change a lot of women’s minds about having the child especially since it’s mostly poor and lower middle class women who wind up in this situation. I mean a child’s life or even a potential child’s life is worth more than that. I hate to be so cold but hey, money talks.
    Here’s another cold thought. Our species no longer operates under the survival of the fittest mode. We are reversing evolution by natural selection because now people who would not have survived among our ancestors long enough to reproduce, such as people with poor eyesight or hearing, can thankfully be helped to live normal lives and have families. But they pass on genetic defects to their chidren that would not have been passed on among our primitive ancestors. In this situation we cannot afford the population decrease that is now projected because many people are having less or no children. So too many unnecessary abortions could be harmful for the survival AND fitness of our species.
    If a woman is going to get an abortion they should just go ahead and do it before she is carrying a human being that could actually live, even for only moments outside the womb. I’m against partial birth abortion but I did some checking. Doctors do not do this procedure unless something has gone terribly wrong.
    I don’t think Christians should just consider a candidate’s stance on this issue because NOTHING is going to stop women from getting abortions in a free country. We have to try a different approach, say like I just mentioned above. We have bigger problems in Iraq where hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis have died and the number of permanently disabled American troops is being lied to us about. It’s astronomical, and an unreported tragedy. We have a candidate that has promised to end that bloodshed and another that thinks it should go on for another 100 years. No presidential candidate can bring an end to abortion. Humanists and Christians need to work together and find a better solution that everyone, or ALMOST everyone (I hate to be so cold again) can live with. I would urge all Christians to stop and think before they vote this year. I would also like to read some responses to this post.

  5. Jeff42 said

    “What pro-life Christians really wish to do is to force women taxpayers to suffer through a nine month pregnancy they do not want to endure and then give birth to a child they never want to see.”

    No, not really. The focus is not as much on the woman as it is on the child. Christians believe that life starts at conception and that abortion will snuff out this precious life. Christians also believe that the woman has every right to choose what she does with her body (before conception). If she chooses to engage in sex, she should realize that this could result in pregnancy – the creation of a new life. Once that new life is created it has every right to protection and should not be snuffed out for convenience sake – so as not to endure a nine month pregnancy and and a child they never wanted to see. Christians are concerned with protecting innocent life.

    I applaud your hatred of abortion, and if I had it I would gladly give “10 to 20 thousand bucks” to save a life. I agree that the child’s life is worth much more than that. There are many Christian organizations out there that seek to help the mother during pregnancy, and then seek to see that the child is adopted out to a loving family.

    I also agree that we should not be single issue voters. We are responsible to understand the full range of issues that are on the table and make prayerful and wise decisions.

    Fred, I’m curious? Are you really Willie using a different name? Some of your posts remind me of him. This is not meant to be a slam – just wondering.

  6. Fred said

    Jeff42, I don’t know any Willie. Life does begin at conception but the question is what kind of life is it? A zygote that has a potential to be a human being if things work as they usually do. You’re a Christian so you think the child belongs to God and the woman getting the abortion is denying God his child. You still care more about your God than the child. I only care about the people concerned because I have no God so see things the way they really are.

  7. Zerxil said

    I am going to listen to the abortion show tomorrow

    We should always have a choice, of candidate. If we don’t it is the Christians fault. Why? None of them ran.

    You have a good point, but I don’t think we should pay people to have more babies. When do you say abortion turns into murder Fred? We should show the ladies their ultra sound, the dangers to them, and tell them people want to adopt their children. How about they stop sleeping around. I wouldn’t be opposed to paying for taxpayers or even non-taxpayers hospital bill for any serious health issue, But I really don’t think I should pay for an abortion, or a nose job, or any other elective surgery. Now if the pregnancy was life threatening is a whole new can o’ worms. “Force women taxpayers to suffer through a nine month pregnancy they do not want to endure and then give birth to a child they never want to see.” They might change their mind about not seeing their children, and just because you don’t want your child does not give you the right to kill them.

    There has been less solders deaths in Iraq than either of Bill Clinton’s terms. I admit some of it is from better armor. We could have handled the middle of the Iraq war a little better, the generals thought it would be like Afghanistan. Its’ weird we are actually very close to a stable government in Iraq, but not Afghanistan probably because there was not a real government before in Afghanistan. Now if they don’t turn into a Muslim state we will be all good… and yes it is easier to talk of off subject stuff.

  8. Fred said

    Zerzil, It’s amazing that you wouldn’t want to fork over tax money to prevent abortions but you do support spending 18 million dollars an hour to kill people in Iraq. The priorities of the average Christian are so upside down and backwards. It comes from reading your holy book that way. You actually cannot figure out that the New Testament writers invented Jesus by having him fulfill re and misinterpreted OT scriptures to tell a story that happens to be way over your head. You’ve been convinced that these prophecies were actually fulfilled, that pre-destination is real! You are so out of touch with reality you don’t know what you are talking about. This is why society ignores you now. You get your ideas out of a book that states that the world is flat, on a foundation that cannot be moved, has four corners and is orbited by the sun every day.

  9. Zerxil said

    6) it is human life.

    yeah a zygote can split than you have two zygotes

    “I have no God so see things the way they really are.” So you can’t ever be mistaken?

    “the woman getting the abortion is denying God his child” and becoming a murderer. Don’t forget the last part.

    “You still care more about your God than the child.” I don’t know if you should have said that. But if you should have than you should have said “,or mother”.

    a smarter, wiser, less obnoxious Willie that actually adds something to this site. I’ve even been edited out of a thread on this site, probably because I’m a smart-Alic sometimes. OK most of the time.

  10. Fred said

    The Biblical God is NOT pro-life, he advocates child murder, infanticide, child abuse and abortion:

    I see so many Christians talking about abortion being a crime against God. It’s not a wonder that they are hard pressed to find a conclusive biblical statement to corroborate their position. In their determination to control women they have been forced to rely on exceedingly weak sections such as “thou shall not kill”,”I kneweth thou in the womb” and their favorite: “When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth…“–Exodus 21:22-24 The problem here is that the man who injures a pregnant woman in the process, shall repay her according to the degree of injury inflicted on her, not the fetus. I am often dumbfounded at how Christians can assume that abortion is wrong judging by these feeble verses when the Bible clearly advocates infanticide and many other atrocities against children and pregnant women. I can no longer allow such ignorance of the Bible and deem it necessary to expose the true agenda. I am tired of the many young Christians who are brainwashed by their clergy. They are only taught the “love and mercy” parts of the Bible and never bother to read what is not so openly preached . The Church thrives off of speaking in half truths and concealing their blood soaked robes. Of course my job as preacher of an Atheist parish is to give a sermon about those things that the Bible TRUTHFULLY commands. Here they are, god’s views on the unborn, the actions of righteous men” and god’s commands of infanticide and child abuse: (note-There are Torah verses in this list but I will not attack the Jewish faith for being pro-life since they are not rampant advocates of the matter.)
    Abortion:

    Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?

    Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.

    Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.

    Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

    2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?
    Infanticide:

    1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless “suckling” infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.

    Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.

    Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.

    The murdering of children:

    Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”

    Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.

    Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”

    2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”

    Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”

    Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.

    Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?

    Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.

    2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.

    Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”

    1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.) At least god realizes what an immoral, murderous pig he is on this one.

    I Kings 16:34 Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates.

    Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.

    Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.

    Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.

    Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.
    Child abuse:

    Genesis 22:9 & 10 “And they came to the place which God had told him of and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.” It matters not that god let Abraham get out of murdering Isaac. To put a knife up to your son’s throat is child abuse.

    I Kings 3:24-25 “And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other.” This test was of course given to see who the real mother of the child was. Christians view this king as a wise man. I look upon his suggestion with far more revulsion then I give accredit to Susan Smith.

    Proverbs 13:24, 19:18, 22:15, 23:13-14 & 29:15 God commands repeatedly that you beat your children.

    Matthew 19:29 If you really loved Jesus then he insists that you abandon your wife and children for him. Only that way will he allow you to go to heaven. (That is if you meet his other hefty requirements, don’t slip through the loopholes, and ignore the contradictions.)

    Mark 7:9 Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law.

    In conclusion I shall end this list with a verse that should keep the pro lifers in check. It is Romans 13: 1-7

    “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which god has established. The authorities that exist have been established by god. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what god has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he shall commend you. For he is god’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is god’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. There fore it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

    This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are god’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes, if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.”

    Clearly it is the job of Christians to obey the laws, and the laws of this country clearly state that abortion is legal. So too should Christians respect and honor that law. God commands them to NOT disobey, which entails attempting to get the law overturned. If god wanted abortion to be illegal he wouldn’t have appointed authorities to make it legal.

  11. Zerxil said

    “The priorities of the average Christian are so upside down and backwards. It comes from reading your holy book that way.”

    How did you know that I can read upside down & backwards? I didn’t say I would not fork over money to prevent abortion. We are not in Iraq RIGHT NOW to kill people. If they would stop trying to kill us and other people we would leave.

    “You actually cannot figure out that the New Testament writers invented Jesus by having him fulfill re and misinterpreted OT scriptures to tell a story that happens to be way over your head.”

    which part is over my head? the story, or that you don’t think any of it is true. yes I read a lot of your site, or rather the site you reference in your name. It was a lot better than most atheist sites. Have you seen pen & tellers anti bible thing? very good points, exactly opposite of what your site says though. the points are not the info. but hey you could use more ammo.

    “that pre-destination is real!” I never said that.. “This is why society ignores you now.” lol society tries & tries. By the way America is composed of 90% Christians. 70% born again. Yeah I know the numbers don’t seem right.

    “You are so out of touch with reality you don’t know what you are talking about.” That does not stop stars, sports people, or politicians, and it won’t stop me.

    hmm, I don’t know if we should strike less obnoxious or not.

  12. Fred said

    America composed of 90% Christians 70% born again. Are you kidding me? Did you listen to Chuck Crismier’s show today? He showed how the claim of 30 million southern Baptists is really only about 4.5 million. There are 100 million Catholics in this country which you people claim aren’t even Christians, so they can’t be born again. The conutry is 14% – 22% atheist with 50% of college students professing atheism or agnosticism. Your figures are just Christian propganda believed by only people foolish enough to believe the Bible.

  13. Fred said

    Zerxil, FYI Chuck Crismier’s entire show today was all about how Christian organizations inflate their numbers to hide the fact that 52,000 people leave Protestant churches weekly, 1500 pastors quit monthly and 3200 Protestant churches close their doors forever yearly. He gave the real numbers and berated Christians for lying about how many born agains their really are. He said it was pitifully small at 8% and declining rapidly. He gave the sources he used and I checked them out. You are either sadly misinformed or a typical Chritsian liar. Probably both.

  14. Zerxil said

    “Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.” No, It meant to kill all non-virgins…

    You cant blame these on God

    Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”

    2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”

    Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.

    “Clearly it is the job of Christians to obey the laws, and the laws of this country clearly state that abortion is legal. So too should Christians respect and honor that law. God commands them to NOT disobey, which entails attempting to get the law overturned.”
    how does legally overturning a law be disobeying a law?

    lol, I guess you did hear them.

  15. Fred said

    I can’t blame anything on God because there is no God. But I can blame people for being ignorant enough to believe what ancient superstitious animal sacrificing primitives scrawed on parchments rather than what modern scientists can tell us. When people think that God is on their side as the murderous Hitlerian war crminal George Bush does, then they think they can name anyone an enemy and kill them and it’s okay. Belief in God is responsible for almost every war there has ever been, not to mention all the cultural prejudice that exists in the world today.

  16. Zerxil said

    or the data is old “52,000 people leave Protestant churches weekly, 1500 pastors quit monthly and 3200 Protestant churches close their doors forever yearly.” I mean 2 million a year…
    “8% and declining rapidly.” than how come Hucabee got so many votes?

    “There are 100 million Catholics in this country which you people claim aren’t even Christians” I do not, I have not ever, nor will I ever say Catholics are not Christian.

  17. Zerxil said

    So your saying belief in God started the Iraq war, Korien War, Vietnam conflict, civil war, land grab wars, ww1,2,3 and wherever NATO sends us?

  18. Zerxil said

    “all the cultural prejudice that exists in the world today” you mean racism? no that was evolution…

  19. Fred said

    Zerxil, Huckabee didn’t get that many votes. He got votes because of his radical plan to do away with the IRS. Even I thought about voting for him but realized he couldn’t pull it off. That’s why he got so many votes man. Wake up. 8% of the American population believes Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church on Sunday and we call them born again Christians. Most of them live in trailer parks in the south and midwest and couldn’t pass an eighth grade science or math class and never did.

  20. Fred said

    Evolution causes racism? Are you nuts? Racism is in the Bible and has been around forever. The Bible God is the most racist figure in all of literature. I love how you Christians have realized you can’t find any science to arh gue against evolution so you’ll just blame it for all the evils that your phony absurd evil religion has caused. You people are soooo dishonest and evil.

  21. Fred said

    I see so many religionists rant and rave about how Atheists are “not tolerant of believers and have no respect for their faith”. To non believers this claim is absurd. For intolerance of various religions is the foundation of Judaism, Christianity, Muslim and many other orthodox communities. Matter of fact, the Bible and Pentateuch commands religious intolerance in MANY verses, even to the point of KILLING people for their beliefs. Here then, are a few choice verses that show just how intolerant these religionists are of other believers and nonbelievers. We shall start with the two verses that helped to inflict one of the biggest mass murders in history, the Inquisition.

    Woman with “familiar spirits” must be stoned to death. Leviticus 20:27

    “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Exodus 22:18

    Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

    You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

    Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

    Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

    Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

    Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

    Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

    Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

    Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

    Ignorance is bliss. Christians should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians:

    Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

    Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

    Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

    Judge other religions for not following Christ:

    Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

    Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

    The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

    Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

    False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

    Here are my two personal favorites:

    Everyone will have to worship Jesus — whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

    A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33

  22. Zerxil said

    Ill check it out. Good night all. When you compare someone like Hitler (who killed Jews which is stupid because they where his chief money makers. The reason he lost? We would not have had Albert Einstein, a German Jew, If he hadn’t been all fire to kill them all. Is it true Hitlers father was a Jew? If it is you CAN blame ww2 on God.) to Bush, who I admit won’t win any nobles, You show your intelligence or lack therof. So how many death warrants did GWB Jr personally sign? Sr might of signed a few….being the FBI director & all.

  23. Fred said

    Here’s something that is on the Internet:

    Hitler Was a Christian

    The Holocaust was caused by Christian fundamentalism:

    History is currently being distorted by the millions of Christians who lie to have us believe that the Holocaust was not a Christian deed. Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today’s Church leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult worshipper, or a false Christian in order to place his misdeeds on those with out Jesus. However, from the earliest formation of the Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and chat rooms.

    Considering that Christianity has thus far been incapable of producing an unbiased, educated follower which speaks the truth, (I haven’t encountered any), I have been forced to dispel the myth by writing this essay. It is not until I bring up his speeches, my personal info on the Nazi regime and their tactics that a Christian will begin to question what their clergy told them. (I am the offspring of a German soldier. My Opa served under Hitler in WW2 and my father was raised during the time of the Nazi regime. This is important information to take into consideration for I am privy to some info that most Americans do not know. It is common for American media and education institutions to lie to their citizens concerning Nazi Germany.) So, in presenting this information I must break it into four parts: 1) Facts about Hitler and his involvement with the Church. 2) How the Church was the catalyst for anti- Semitism. 3) Facts concerning how the Nazi regime drilled these beliefs into Germanic society. 4) Quotes Hitler made which prove he had a disdain for atheism/occultism, upheld his Christian faith, and hated Jews due to his Christianity.

    Hitler’s involvement with the Church:

    a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

    b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

    c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

    d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.

    f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

    g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

    Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

    h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism

    How Christianity was the catalyst of the Holocaust:

    Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.

    Now, you must remember before Hitler rose to Chancellor of Germany the country was in a deep economic depression due to the Versailles treaty. The Versailles treaty demanded that Germans made financial reparations for the previous war and Germany simply was not self sufficient enough in order to pay the debt. Hitler was the leader that raised Germany out of the depression and brought them back to a world recognized power. Due to his annulment of the financial woes of the Germanic people he became their redeemer and they anointed him as the leader of the German Reich Christian Church in 1933. This placed him in power of the German Christian Socialist movement which legislates their political and religious agendas. It united all denominations, mainly the Protestant/Catholic and Lutheran people to instill faith in a national Christianity.

    How the Nazi Regime converted the people:

    a) In the 1920s, Hitler’s German Workers’ Party (pre Nazi term) adopted a “Programme” with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a “positive” Christianity: “We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession…”

    b) The Nazi regime started a youth movement which preached its agenda to impressionable children. Hitler backed up the notion that all people need faith and religious education: “By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his existence. Take away from present-day mankind its education-based, religious- dogmatic principles– or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles– by abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of their existence.” – Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    c) The Nazi regime began to control schools insisting that Christianity was taught.

    d) The Nazi regime included anti-Semitic Christian writings in textbooks and they were not removed from Christian doctrines until 1961.

    e) The Nazi regime having full blown power over the people began to forcibly convert all its military.

    f) The Nazi regime forced the German soldiers to wear religious symbols such as the swastika and they placed religious sayings on military gear. An example here is this German army belt buckle (I believe my Opa had one) which reads “Gott Mit Uns”. For those of you who do not speak German it is translated as “God With Us”.

    g) The German troops were often forced to get sprinkled with holy water and listen to a sermon by a Catholic priest before going out on a maneuver.

    h) The Nazis created a secret service called the “SS Reich” that would act as spies on the dealings of other citizens. If anyone was suspected of heresy (Going not only against the Socialist party but CHURCH DOCTRINE) they would be prosecuted.

    Quotes from Hitler:

    Hitler’s speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany. Nazism presents an embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of their faith So they try to pin him on other theistic views. The following words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and reveal the strength of his Christian feelings:

    “National Socialism is not a cult-movement– a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship… We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else– in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will– not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.” -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938. [Christians have always accused Hitler of believing in pagan cult mythology. What is written here clearly expresses his stand against cults.]

    “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 [This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism. Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people worshipped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy. The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.]

    Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:

    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.” –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

    “Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition.” -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which Christianity was founded.)

    “The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.” -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (The idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this “tradition” up until the 20th century.)

    “With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people.” -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is common in war for one race to rape another so that they can “defile” the race and assimilate their own. Hitler speaks about this very tactic here.)

    “The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present- day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties– and this against their own nation.”–Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    “…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion.” -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where humankind is cast from Eden for their sins. Hitler compares this to the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.)

    “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    “The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (This quote is very interesting for it disperses the idea that Hitler raged war due to being an Aryan supremacist. He states quite clearly that he has a problem with Jews for their belief not race. That is why many German Jews died in WW2 regardless of their Aryan nationality.)

    “Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (Here Hitler is admitting that his war against the Jews were so successful because of his strong Christian Spirituality.)

    Quotes from Other Nazis about Hitler and Religion:

    “Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Gobbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide.” (Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer page 95-96)

  24. Zerxil said

    “one of the biggest mass murders in history, the Inquisition.” What?!? I guess you did extensive research on that…The romans killed more people weekly than the Inquisition ever did. In the civil war it was daily. The twin towers killed alot more people. Husain personally killed more people. I believe even evolutions own Hitler had 280x that put to death. “the Inquisition burned 59 women in Spain, 36 in Italy and 4 in Portugal.” Thats almost 100 (as per Wikipedia) the 300 Spartans even killed more then that. Now witch burning that is the pastime of the church. “in Europe civil justice put to trial close to 100,000 women; 50,000 of them were burned, 25,000 in Germany, during the 16th century by the followers of Martin Luther” (as per Wikipedia)

    “8% of the American population believes Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church on Sunday and we call them born again Christians.” oh ok that explains why your # is so low.

    “False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan”

  25. Zerxil said

    “From 1905 on, Hitler lived a bohemian life in Vienna on an orphan’s pension and support from his mother. He was rejected twice by the Academy of Fine Arts Vienna (1907–1908), citing “unfitness for painting,” and was told his abilities lay instead in the field of architecture.[10] His memoirs reflect a fascination with the subject:
    “ The purpose of my trip was to study the picture gallery in the Court Museum, but I had eyes for scarcely anything but the Museum itself. From morning until late at night, I ran from one object of interest to another, but it was always the buildings which held my primary interest.”[11] ”

    Following the school rector’s recommendation, he too became convinced this was the path to pursue, yet he lacked the proper academic preparation for architecture school:
    “ In a few days I myself knew that I should some day become an architect. To be sure, it was an incredibly hard road; for the studies I had neglected out of spite at the Realschule were sorely needed. One could not attend the Academy’s architectural school without having attended the building school at the Technic, and the latter required a high-school degree. I had none of all this. The fulfillment of my artistic dream seemed physically impossible.[12]”

    “Hitler said he first became an anti-Semite in Vienna,[13] which had a large Jewish community, including Orthodox Jews who had fled from pogroms in Russia. But according to a childhood friend, August Kubizek, Hitler was a “confirmed anti-Semite” before he left Linz, Austria.[13] Vienna at that time was a hotbed of traditional religious prejudice and 19th century racism. Hitler may have been influenced by the writings of the ideologist and anti-Semite Lanz von Liebenfels and polemics from politicians such as Karl Lueger, founder of the Christian Social Party and Mayor of Vienna, the composer Richard Wagner, and Georg Ritter von Schönerer, leader of the pan-Germanic Away from Rome! movement. Hitler claims in Mein Kampf that his transition from opposing anti-Semitism on religious grounds to supporting it on racial grounds came from having seen an Orthodox Jew:”

  26. Fred said

    Christians try to distance themselves from true Christians like Hitler and Mussolini after they realize they made a mistake in supporting them. In America, Hitler was a real hero to evangelicals right up until Dec 7 1941 when the American evangleicals realized once again, like their 100% total support for the British in both the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, they were on the wrong side. Yep, the Christians were called Tories during the Revolution because they fought on the side of the British. See, Tom Paine was the inspiration for the Revolution and he was the author of The Age of Reason, a book the proved the fallacies and falsities of Christianity. So the Christians hated Paine and called the Revolutionary War and act against God. Our country was never a “Christian” nation and had the Christians got their way we wouldn’t even be a nation.

  27. Fred said

    There was one Christian in Washington’s army though, but only one: Benedict Arnold. And that’s a fact Jack! LMAO!

  28. John said

    But….
    Many of todays Christians [in this country anyway] are not, as you put it, “true Christians like Hitler and Mussolini”.Although almost every major theology in existence today has a shady, bloody past[it’s just the nature of the beast, I guess]what’s important to consider is that the majority of people have learned from the misdeeds of others and become better people for it.If this was not so, then I[and others]would have been exiled or executed by modern society long ago.

    “…a typical Chritsian lier.” “You people are soooo dishonest and evil.”

    I think that you are generalizing far too much, Fred.They are not all the same.Consider that many charity organizations are Christian based.Christians helped stop slavery in this country.
    And even Charles Darwin[smile] never really denied the existence of the Christian God.His experiences and work left him with many many doubts, true, but he still never became an atheist despite that, but had to settle for a form of agnosticism.Need I mention that like Hitler, HE also attended a religious accadamie and almost became a man of the cloth? Thank God[s] for so many these days who are not “true Christians like Hitler and Mussolini”!
    We the two of us here at this house, that is]like your use of Bible verses, but you’re starting to sound like a,…for lack of a better label…”Atheistic Zealot”.
    Just try toning things down a tiny bit.

  29. In regards to the question about a Christian actor/actress on a soap opera… In listening to the host and numerous callers during the Sat. evening broadcast in Hampton Roads (1010AM, May 24, 5:30pm), I notice that most of the conversation defending the choice of the Christian actress revolves around one point; that is, the evangelistic opportunity that exists in this situation. I, for one, agree wholeheartedly that there is a tremendous possibility for great kingdom work to occur in this situation. Having said that, I want to raise a question of logic and critical thinking reflected in many callers’ comments and suggested by the tone and diction of the host.

    In making ethical choices, in making moral decisions, as a Christian, is it fitting or even right to base that decision on what is practical or pragmatic for the spreading of the Gospel? In other words, when I am confronted with an ethical dilemma, is it sound, Christian thinking for me to say to myself, “Hmmm… Could my taking this action help people come to Jesus? If so, then that means it is a good ethical choice.” If this is solid, biblical thinking, then let us carry it to the logical extreme. What if I were recognized for my marketing talent, and were offered a well-paying job to work as a promoter or advertiser for, let’s say, an abortion clinic; or, let’s say, for a strip club. I don’t know–fill in the blank with whatever industry or business is abominable to you. Forget for a moment the arguments as to why those places are different from the set of a soap opera. Forget that for a moment. Focus singularly, if you will, on the type of thinking a Christian ought to employ in making the decision. Is it fitting to base the decision on the perhaps unparalleled opportunity to reach people in that industry with the message of the Gospel? Is that a good foundation to build my decision upon? Is it fitting to say, “Think of all the abortionists and all the exotic dancers that could be reached with the Gospel! Who else will reach them!” Is it sound thinking to steel myself against any kind of personal compromise and still enter the questionable marketplace, based on the idea that my presence there might make a difference?

    I would suggest that perhaps it IS a good idea for this young actress to act in this soap opera. BUT if it is a good idea, the reason certainly is NOT because of the evangelistic opportunity. That is a shaky, illogical, and dangerous ground upon which to base a moral decision.

  30. Zerxil said

    “when the American evangelicals realized once again, like their 100% total support for the British in both the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, they were on the wrong side.”

    um there were some on both side in both of those.

    “Our country was never a “Christian” nation and had the Christians got their way we wouldn’t even be a nation.” So when people say most of this countries founders were Christian your saying they are all Christian lier? um proof positive right there folks…proof of what I’m not going to say. I’ll get edited again. 🙂

  31. Tripp said

    Fred – so far you’ve been right about one thing. You will probably get banned from here since you insult other’s beliefs. There’s very little actual debate in your comments. Just allegations.

  32. Brad said

    Fred,

    Boy, you really have some pent up hostility, don’t you? I’d be curious to know how you came to hold your current beliefs. How you’re “sure” there is no God. If God’s unprovable, as most atheists claim, then the opposite would also be true – that “no God” is also unprovable. Which really makes you just another angry agnostic.

    It’s OK, Fred. Most people on here debate you, but lend no creedence to what you say. They view it as the rantings of an angry person who despises Christianity – and they probably have you pegged right, don’t you think?

    Feel free to say what you wish, but don’t look to change any minds, b/c you probably won’t. I really do feel sorry for you. There’s a God-sized hole in your heart, that only He can fill, and you’ll search your whole life looking to fill it with other things, and you’ll never be happy. You may convince yourself you are, but deep down, you’re not. But, it is your choice, and nobody, not even God, will take that away from you. But the same rewards and penalties that apply to me and all other Christians, apply to you as well, Fred, whether you acknowledge them or not. And I realize you don’t, but just wanted to let you know that anyway.

  33. zerxil said

    You can fill it, just not for long.

  34. Jason said

    Abortion is legal in the US. What will a pro-life candidate mean to the legal status of abortion? It’s wrong by moral standards, but so is the extermination of humans. I am talking about the so called “war on terror.” Should Christians ever vote for a candidate that supports foreign genocide campaigns? What about medicine? Privatized or universal?

    In short, who you vote for is your choice, but know that there are other issues to weigh in on. One cannot simply ask if a person is pro-life or pro-choice. Abortion is legal and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. What would Jesus really do here? Politics is tricky business.

  35. Annie said

    I’m in shock that Fred has been allowed to post his hatred as long as he has. Please folks, let’s pray for him! If God is able to get a hold of his heart, he will have one amazing testimony!

  36. Annie – Unfortunately, we were forced to block Fred from the site. He was repeatedly warned, but ignored us. We don’t like doing that, but we had no choice.

    Moderator

  37. Barney said

    Who needs Fred, anyway?

  38. Zerxil said

    lol spoken like a true ex-fred

  39. F. L. A. said

    He was amusing in his arrogance.
    He was the stereotypical Atheist, from a Christian perspective that is. When some zealous Christians speak of Atheism being like a religion, I think that they are thinking of someone like him.
    He was too arrogant to see that he was acting every bit as ignorant and rude as he claimed that Christians here were. Too bad so sad.
    Fred, why did you not go back to calling yourself by your original name? Did Fred#2 spoil it for you, the way that the Nazis spoiled the Solar Wheel[Swastika] for the world?

  40. persian carpets…

    […]Should a Christian ever vote for a pro-abortion candidate? & Should Christians ever act Soap Operas « Welcome to TruthTalkLive.com![…]…

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