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Christian & Superstitious?

Posted by truthtalklive on May 20, 2008

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128 Responses to “Christian & Superstitious?”

  1. zerxil said

    Cold Reception

    Tuesday we told you about several areas around the planet experiencing record cold and snowpack — in the face of all the predictions of global warming.

    Now there is word that all four major global temperature tracking outlets have released data showing that temperatures have dropped significantly over the last year. California meteorologist Anthony Watts says the amount of cooling ranges from 65-hundredths of a degree Centigrade to 75-hundreds of a degree.

    That is said to be a value large enough to erase nearly all the global warming recorded over the past 100 years. It is reportedly the single fastest temperature change ever recorded — up or down.

    Some scientists contend the cooling is the result of reduced solar activity — which they say is a larger driver of climate change than man-made greenhouse gases.

    foxnews.com Feb 08

  2. SuperstixUn said

    I live by the fortune kooky!

    I wonder who caused the ice-age? I don’t see out temps getting that low…

  3. John said

    “Global Warming” is starting to become an out-dated term for that phenomena, Zerxil.The term widely accepted by those in the know now is “Climate Change”, which is actually much better, as some places are getting warmer while other places are getting colder, while in yet other places the weather is just getting very erratic.

  4. Fred said

    “I have recently been examining all the kinown superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.” – Thomas Jefferson. Asking if Christians are superstitious is like asking if the sun is hot. There isn’t a more insane superstition than Christianty itself!

  5. John said

    What about Leviticus19:18 and Mathew22:39 Fred? Sounds rather redeeming of a feature to me…I could list other examples if you wish.

  6. Fred said

    Don’t give me any examples from a book that has talking animals and vegetation in it. FYI the Bible is a fiction.

  7. zerxil said

    talking animals? don’t you believe humans are animals. So you don’t want biology taught anymore?

  8. F. L. A. said

    That’s one brownie point for you, Zerxil[Heh! Heh! Heh!]!
    Fred, and why not? These are wonderful moral guides for humanity, these passages, and if you disagree, then why? JUST because they came from the Christian Bible? So what if it contains many things that seem impossible, read between the lines.The POINT of the stories are what’s important.Not EVERYTHING within the book is to be taken literally at face value, surely. Aesop’s Fables also contain impossible characters and events, but who can doubt their wisdom?
    You come of as distinctly anti-Christian.If I am wrong about that then I apologize.

  9. Maz said

    F.L.A: You seem to be changing lately, can’t quite put my finger on it. Now you are defending the Bible. I like it.

    Zerxil: Good one!

    Fred: Do you believe Jesus is a fiction too then?

  10. zerxil said

    Yes he does, or at least his hyper (hyphen?) link does. Hyper Fred is pushing even the poly-theists toward our thinking, or maybe we can see their full views now. Fred does not believe in talking birds… and the bush wasn’t talking, it was just to get a very dense person to stop & listen.

  11. F. L. A. said

    I’m baAAAAAAAaaack. No Maz,I am not changing in the way that you would probably hope for.I’m still as homicidal, ugly, and crazy as ever I was.Just wait, soon I will undoubtibly say something that will piss you off. I simply recognize a good/helpful thing when I encounter it.There is no point in denying it, the Christian Bible has helpful advice.Both John and myself are non-Christian, but that doesn’t also mean that we are ANTI-Christian as well, you know.

    Fred, I forgot to bring this up earlier, but wanted to also point out that not ALL of the Bible can be labeled as fiction[names, places,etc. for example.].You sound intelligent, and so should not make such broad sweeping claims.Some one might take your claim literally and ask you to try and prove it and then were would you be? Your credibillity[yes I know that’s misspelled]would be further undermined.
    Are you religious in any way?I was just curious.Why are you here? To teach truth to the ignorant? Or for some kind of a….”release”? Because if you ARE here to try and teach then perhaps you should try a new method of some kind for reaching out to people.Just thinking….

  12. Fred said

    FLA I am labeling the Bible 100% fiction and I defy anyone to prove otherwise. An event such as the Passover event could not and would not have gone unnoticed and unreported in the mountian of historical inscriptions we have from ancient Egypt. Not only do the Egyptians not mention this unforgettable event that would have left plenty of archaeological evidence, and not only do they not mention ANY of the events described in Exodus, there isn’t any evidence from them that the Israelites were ever even in Egypt. Poof, this falsifies both Judaism and Christianity and with them Jesus Christ.

    Places and names don’t make any of the stories in the Bible true. For instance neither the kingdoms of Judah or Israel described in the Bible nor any of their kings from David through any of his 40 (it’s always 40 somethings in the Bible you know) sons ever existed. Both kingdoms are fairytale kingdoms and ruled by fairytale kings. The Jews never dominated Palestine, they were Palestinians like the rest of the Palestinians only with their own god. They mostly lived in and around Jerusalem and no Jews existed before the 8th century BCE. So anything that has something to do with a time period before that is a fiction. I think I’ve made my case. I’m a Jew and studied the history of Palestine at a Lutheran college. The study of Palestine’s past has moved away from the Bible and we are just now getting a clear picture of what Palestine was REALLY like during the time the Bible SUPPOSEDLY describes.

  13. Fred said

    Maz I will tell you who/what Jesus is. In our country we have a figure who allegorically represents our nation. We call him Uncle Sam. I could write a story in which Uncle Sam goes around and says and does magical things that represent a new vision for our nation. Isaiah did this with his suffering servant, he represented Israel as a person, a corporate figure as an individual.

    And so it is with Jesus. Jesus Christ represents the “New Israel” opposed to the “Old Israel” played by the Pharisees and the Saducees who were complacent with the Romans. The gospels are not biographies of any historical figure. They are religious proclamations about a “New Israel” suffering as the priests to the world, God’s holy nation, who dies and rises agian to pay for the sins of the world.

    This might sound far fetched at first but it is what many many Jews believe and also many Bible scholars such as Thomas Thompson for one. I am not wrong about this. This “theory” explains the miracles, the lack of evidence for a historical Jesus and why Jesus hasn’t and will not return. I wish every Christian could read this post because it is the truth about Jesus Christ and the gospel message.

  14. F. L. A. said

    “Places and names don’t make any of the stories in the Bible true.”
    Are you suuuuurrrre? And why not?
    Here’s a little bit of defiance to go against your claim that the Bible is 100% fiction. The temple of Diana at Ephesus[Turkey].listed by Philon as the best out of the seven wonders of the ancient world, this temple was built after 350 B.C. St. Paul[another fictional character?] in the New Testament, railed against it, quoted as saying “The temple of the great Goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.” This temple actually existed, so why wouldn’t this lend even a little credibility to any of the Bible stories?
    And how can you be a Jew and not believe in the existence of anything or anyone from the Old Testament?
    Your thoughts…?

  15. F. L. A. said

    John has the Torah.We could go through it together if you like….tomorrow.It’s time to go a hunting.

  16. Fred said

    FLA I’ve never met another Jew who didn’t think the Old Testament was fiction including rabbis. You Christians live in a bubble where you think the Jews actually believe this nonsense. Find me one that does. I don’t know any Jews who aren’t atheists and Israel is over 75% atheist and has had nothing but atheist prime ministers for the last 45 years. Yet Christians support this illegal nation squatting on land that does not belong to them because they think they will be punished ala Abraham’s blessing/curse if they don’t. Abraham never existed and there was never any Jewish state or kingdom in Israel until 1948.

    The apostle Paul mentioning a temple doesn’t prove anything. These letters are all forgeries and although there might have been an apostle Paul there is no reason to believe at all that this is the person who wrote the epistles in his name.

  17. Maz said

    Fred: If you have never met a Jew who didn’t think the OT was fiction including rabbis, then you have been living somewhere a long way from sunlight. There are even Jews who have recognised and believe that Jesus, a real and historical figure, is the Messiah, the Son of God and the Savior of the world.
    I am not sure I even want to encourage your desperate unbelief and blasphame on this site, but it is obviously your free choice to make a fairytale out of what archaeology and history (that includes secular historians of Jesus day and after) have recorded and written as true. Jesus was a true historical figure. Even non-christians AND Jews will probably agree with that, but it’s Who He claimed to be that is in question with most people, not that He didn’t exist atall.
    You are truly living out in a desert somewhere and listening to an entity that hates Jesus and God as much as you appear to do. (Like the other Fred/Barney?)

    The Egyptians would very unlikely write about a people that caused so much trouble for them or in their eyes were just slaves. They tended to write about their victories not defeats. And they had a habit of destroying any records of people, including Pharoahs that they did not like.

  18. Maz said

    F.L.A: That would be interesting, I hope Fred takes up the challenge.

  19. F. L. A. said

    Yes, “interesting”[notice how we seem to use that word alot in many different ways?].John mentioned that point himself torwards the beginning of the other evolution site.

    An Atheist-Jew??? How does that make any sense Fred? That is like calling oneself an Atheist-Hindi.How??? You just got a little more interesting.
    And I am not a Christian.See top half of post#11, or…. read almost everything under my name since over a year ago.

  20. Maz said

    F.L.A: There are actually secular Jews who live in Israel, just like there are people who call themselves ‘Christians’ but only because they are ‘good’ people who think they will get to Heaven but without Jesus. The only difference between the two, is that a Jew is born a Jew, they are a race AND religion, Gods chosen nation, Christians aren’t born naturally, they have to be born-again.
    But with Fred, he makes such sweeping statements that truly in reality they make no sense…in other words they are nonsense.

  21. F. L. A. said

    I have never considered a “Jew” to be anything other than a follower of Judaism.I would never have attached it to the label of “race”.Seems too anti-semitic.
    If he is atheistic, then a debate involving the Torah my be futile.
    He may have the same feelings towards it as does he the Christian Bible.If not, then I am interested in learning which parts of the Torah he agrees with, if any.

  22. F. L. A. said

    Only nonsense to us. Use these opportunities to learn a different perspective, especially concerning topics or people that you personally disagree with.

  23. Maz said

    Nevertheless F.L.A. they are a ecognised nation, the Jewish nation of Israel, and also Gods chosen people, which is their religion.

    If Fred or Barneys phylosophies are anything to go by what they have said here hen I would not want the opportunity to learn any more than I have to to debate them. And I do believe they are nonsense…PERIOD.

  24. Maz said

    OOps! ‘ecognised’ should be recognised.

  25. Fred said

    Maz name one secular contemporary historian who mentioned Jesus Christ. Philo lived in and around Jerusalem during the first half of the first century and he mentions nothing about Jesys Christ and neither do any other Roman or Jewish historians. There isn’t a shred of evidence that Jesus Christ ever existed, because he didn’t. The gospels are not biographies but religious proclamations and Jesus is a corporate figure who represents the “new Israel” much like Uncle Sam represents the USA.

  26. Fred said

    Creationists spend an inordinate amount of time trying to disprove evolution, cosmology, geology, zoology, oceanography, astronomy, anthropology, all the disiplines of science really. Yet they claim their only problem is with evolution. This is quite obviously a lie and the true creationist goal is to completely shut down the entire scientific enterprise because every time some new fact is discovered in any disipline it argues against the magical explanations put forth in the absurd Christian holy book. Creationists doubt ALL science yet they never turn their supposedly critical minds onto a story about a man spending three days in the belly of a fish, a story about a talking donkey or that a five hundred year-old man built a boat the size of the Titanic and it floated without a steel hull! LMAO! To doubt science and then to blindly accept these obvious fairytales as being literally true proves creationists are either really eally stupid or completely insane. Their fear induced superstitions guide every thought in their heads. Only a person frightened completely out of their minds could believe the insnane stories in the Bible. And so they do.

  27. Fred said

    Maz I am going to humiliate you right off this blog. No matter what you write, I will poke fun at it and prove it to be a lie. You are a marked person; prepare to suffer the most embarrassing times of your life should you dare to post anything else on this blog.

  28. Maz said

    Fred: We do not doubt ALL science, only the evolutionists bias.
    The theory of evolution touches all sciences including the ones you mentioned, and particularly anthropology. You cannot divorce them from each other.
    Very often Fred, a new discovery tends to put a spanner in the proverbial evolutionary works.
    And I go back to the best testimony for an Intelligent Designer/Creator…..DNA. I’m sorry if you don’t like me bringing that up again. Also there are things Hubble is finding that also creates problems for evolution and particularly the Big Bang.
    The whale that swallowed a man, the donkey that spoke…and don’t forget the speaking serpent in the garden of Eden! They may look stupid and unbelievable to you, but if you don’t believe in a supernatural God then you probably don’t even believe anything outside the natural world. All that you SEE is all that you will believe. Am I right?
    There’s no point, as I said before, to explain the supernatural or miraculous.

    ”Creationists are either really really stupid or completely insane.” Thanks Fred!
    ”Their fear induced superstitions guide every thought in their head”. WRONG! I don’t fear superstitious nonsense because I don’t believe in superstitions. I believe in God and it is HE
    that guides every thought in my head.
    ”Only a person frightened completely out of their minds could believe the insane stories in the Bible. And so they do.” NO I DO NOT!!! (And for clarity, I didn’t say that angrily).
    You have it all wrong yet again, by your hatred of me and all I believe and stand for, which is becoming more and more transparent by each blog. I am in NO WAY frightened by anything or anyone…..er..well, perhaps the odd spider! I am really finding your desperation quite laughable now.

    And in your final blog you threaten to humiliate me right off this blog! Oh NO!! I am shaking in my little boots.
    ”I will poke fun at it and prove it a lie.” May God have mercy on you Fred, I am beginning to feel afraid now….FOR YOU.
    ”Prepare to suffer the most embarrassing times of your life should you dare to post anything else on this blog”. OOOooooooooooo!!!

    Is this all you can do now Fred? Threaten, humiliate, embarrass….DARE ME, to put any more on this blog?
    How do you think this looks to others on this blog?
    Actually….maybe you have scared most everyone else off…well, my Father is with me, so I trust in Him. Who have you got?

  29. John said

    Fred, about post#27, critisizims are fun to read and fun to make, but if you and Maz want to have a duel then you need toprovide each other with your own personal e-mail addresses so you can do it off the Truth Talk Live site.You may be crossing that line and becoming dangerously close to censorship or exile from this site.And we wouldn’t want that, for you are interesting and amusing[smile].Just offering a thought.

  30. Maz said

    John: I am quite happy to debate on here but I do feel Fred is getting out the gloves. It seems that he cannot discuss this subject without getting close to abusive. If it goes any further John, I shall cease from blogging on here with him. I do not want to enter any fight, that is not what I am on here for. And as a Christian I am becoming very uncomfortable with Freds attitude toward God as it is. I don’t really care what he may say about and against me but I do care about what he is saying about my God and my Savior. In fact I am going to heed your warning right now and call a halt to this. And however Fred takes that decision is up to him. I pray God will have mercy on him.

  31. Chris C. said

    I’m with Maz on this. Fred, I share a lot of your views but there’s no need to resort to ad hominem and degrading attacks to prove a point. It can be frustrating to clash with people who disagree with you. Deal with it.

    Now, as for the rest of Maz’ most recent post. Can you name some discoveries that “put a spanner in the works” for evolution? Also, what discoveries of the hubble (or any other) telescope are incongruent with the big bang theory?

  32. John said

    I, having been censured myself in the past, I just don’t know exactly where that hypothetical line is that shouldn’t be crossed.It’s that “We reserve the right to make such decisions..” that makes me confused.
    Well,….believing in theology as you do, I guess that you could take comfort in knowing that in your theological universe you will ultimately have the last laugh, eh?

  33. Fred said

    I knew Maz would buckle quickly. He/she/it doesn’t understand atheism at all. Creationists think that atheists are people who secretly believe in God but are just mad at he/she/it or something. It wouldn’t be so difficult for an atheist to try to imagine that the God of the deist somehow might exist. But the Christian God comes with way too much unbelievable baggage, Satan and Jesus for starters. Then there are demons, angels, devils, magical talking animals and talking vegetation, giants, dragons, unicorns, seraphs, satyrs (half man half horses), fiery serpents, cockatrices, witches calling up dead people, dead people being brought back to life, flying serpents, impossibly old people, stories that cannot be substantiated by historical documentation or archaeological evidence and the fact that other than the tomb of King Cyrus, not one tomb for any other figure mentioned in the Bible has ever or will ever be found. Neither have any of the famous supposed biblical artifacts such as the Ten Commandment stones, Noah’s ark, the Ark of the Covenant, Solomon’s Temple or any evidence at all for any 40 year wondering in the desert. Anthropologists can trace the movements of hunter-gatherers from 30,000 years ago but cannot find any evidence for this 40 year event. An event such as the Passover event could not have and would not have gone completely unmentioned in the mountain of historical inscriptions we have from Egypt. Not only do the Egyptians not mention this or any other events described in Exodus, there isn’t a shred of evidence that the Jews even existed before the 8th century BCE or that they were ever in Egypt! I think this explains why no person of sense is going to believe the Bible or anything its thumpers might claim about it.

  34. Fred said

    As far as the comment about me getting out the gloves, this is the only way to deal with creationists. They must be completely humiliated by their own words and their own superstitions. When a person becomes too embarrassed to express their archaic superstions in public they will soon realize they are not worth holding onto anymore, because they are so obviously false and ridiculous.

  35. Hello Fred – This quote will have to be warning #1: “Maz I am going to humiliate you right off this blog. No matter what you write, I will poke fun at it and prove it to be a lie. You are a marked person; prepare to suffer the most embarrassing times of your life should you dare to post anything else on this blog.”

    This type of tone is really not necessary.

    Moderator

  36. F. L. A. said

    Just out of curiosity Moderator, how many warnings is one entailed, or does it depend upon the severity of the offense?

  37. Fred said

    Moderator, Maz accused me of insulting his God thereby insinuating that I believe in this deity. I find this highly offensive as belief in deities is a slap in the face to one’s fellow humans. As a secular humanist I do not wish to be accused of such a thing. Moderator you have no idea just how offensive the things you say are to free thinking people. But love the Christian hate the nChristianity I always say. See what I mean there Moderator?

  38. F. L. A. said

    Consider were you are posting, Fred. The non-Christian visitor to a Christian web site must be prepared for such possible insults, intentional, unintentional, or imagined, by either party.It’s “their website” so you have to play by their rules.
    So suck it up, and carefully consider your next course of action.

  39. John said

    My, my, Fred.Only five days into it and already your first warning. Your well on your way.

  40. Let’s give Maz a chance to respond to your claims of offense, Fred. We are more concerned with the personal tone of the post. Making claims of belief in false gods or godesses (or no god at all)on here is common. We just want the debate to remain civil, diplomatic and respectful. This goes for everyone, Christians included: it works just like the television. If you don’t like it, just change the channel. Simple as that.

    Thank you,
    Moderator

  41. Zerxil said

    satyrs (half man half goat)

    The other Roman and Jewish sources that do remain all offer compelling evidence for the existence of Jesus. There are also contemporary references, as in the mention of the Thallus History by Africanus and the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion, that offer indirect evidence.
    “Pagan” Sources

    Thallus was a Samaritan historian, who lived around 52 A.D. He wrote (in a lost work, referred to by Julius Africanus in Chronography, XVIII from the third century) attempting to give a natural explanation for the darkness which occurred at the crucifixion of Jesus:

    “On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

    An important note here is that Thallus evidently did not deny the existence of Jesus, but merely tried to explain away the strange circumstances (cf. Mark 15:33) surrounding His death.
    Letter of Mara Bar-Serapion

    Mara Bar-Serapion wrote a letter to his son from prison, in about 73 A.D., exhorting him to seek wisdom, and mentioneing the the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras, and of a “wise king” of the Jews:

    “What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king?…Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given.”

    The person mentioned here has a striking similarity to Jesus, but since he is not mentioned by name, there is some room for skeptics to doubt that the Jesus of the Bible is the one mentioned. See The “Testimony” of Mara Bar-Serapion, from the Skeptical Review.

    Tacitus

    Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman Historian who lived c.55-A.D. c.117. He writes of “Christus” in his ANNALS Book XV, Chapter 44:

    “Nero looked around for a scapegoat, and inflicted the most fiendish tortures on a group of persons already hated by the people for their crimes. This was the sect known as Christians. Their founder, one Christus, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. This checked the abominable superstition for a while, but it broke out again and spread, not merely through Judea, where it originated, but even to Rome itself, the great reservoir and collecting ground for every kind of depravity and filth. Those who confessed to being Christians were at once arrested, but on their testimony a great crowd of people were convicted, not so much on the charge of arson, but of hatred of the entire human race.”

    “Some writers may toy with the fancy of a ‘Christ-myth,’ but they do not do so on the ground of historical evidence. The historicity of Christ is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Caesar. It is not historians who propagate the ‘Christ-myth’ theories.”

    F.F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?, Inter-Varsity Press, 1972, p.119.
    Pliny The Younger

    Pliny The Younger was Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, in about 112 A.D. He wrote to the emperor Trajan, in Epistles X.96, about the dedication of Christians whom he had been persecuting. He had:

    “…made them curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do.”

    In the same letter he describes the trials of Christians who had been arrested:

    “They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their errors was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up.”

    Seutonius

    Seutonius was a court official and annalist under Hadrian around 120 A.D., who wrote:

    “As the Jews were making constant disturbance at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.” Life of Claudius, 25.4

    Luke makes reference to this same expulsion in Acts 18:1-2.
    Acts 18:1-2 After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome.

    Another mention of Christianity by Seutonius is made in Lives of the Caesars, 26.2:

    “Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.”

    Link to a document in the BYU library online of the 1508 Aldine Pliny Works.
    Jewish Sources
    The Talmud

    The Talmuds were the rabbinical interpretations of the Old Testament that dealt with Jewish law, written during the period from 100 A.D. to 500 A.D.

    These Rabbinical Writings speak frequently of Jesus of Nazareth, in perhaps odd and unflattering terms, as one would expect. Jesus is referred to in many places as “Yeshua ben Pandera” or “Yeshu ben Pantere”, where the name “Pandera” was widely supposed to be the real father of the illegitimate son of Mary.

    Why isn’t the name “Jesus” ever mentioned in the Old Testament text? See Yeshua in the Tenach: http://www.menorah.org/yeshname.html

    Flavius Josephus

    Josephus was a Jewish general turned Roman historian, born in 37 A.D. Much knowledge about the culture and backgrount of New Testament times can be gleaned from his writings.

    One important point to make is that Josephus was not likely to be sympathetic to Christianity, and perhaps risk Roman ire. However, he makes several references to Jesus in his History Of The Jews, such as in Antiquities XVIII, 3:3:

    “At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him many Jews and Gentiles. This was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of Christians, so called from him, subsists to this time.” (Lardner s translation)

    Also, in Antiquities XX, 9:1, we find a reference to James, the brother of Jesus:

    “…and brought before it the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ, whose name was James.”

    There still remains criticism by modern scholars over all of these evidences, mostly centered around the idea that these references originated from historians who did not show a detached impartiality characteristic of modern historical writing.

    will these do?

    http://home.houston.rr.com/apologia/sec6p2.htm

  42. Zerxil said

    “dead people being brought back to life,” still happens. please oh please let my post be put on.

    “other than the tomb of King Cyrus, not one tomb for any other figure mentioned in the Bible has ever or will ever be found.” so Ceaser or Hared does not exist?

    A work of fiction turning into a religious text in a few thousand years? It doesn’t take that long. Dianetics or Scientology.

  43. Zerxil said

    ”Prepare to suffer the most embarrassing times of your life should you dare to post anything else on this blog”

    ha, this threat has no hold over me. I can Embarrass & humiliate myself worse than you ever could.

  44. Zerxil said

    in reply to my #1 post. thats .065 deg to .075 degrees.

    It is reportedly the single fastest temperature change ever recorded — up or down. the tornadoes leveled it off now. So Climate Change is the new term. They should have used that in early 80’s late 70’s when it did the same thing in reverse. global cooling followed by global warming. the tornadoes leveled it off

    I thought I would save money this year & turn on the AC when it hits 90 (I have fans in every room in the house, Good insulation, not at home in hot part of day) so I turn it on Friday evening. So anyway there are no a/c repair people available until at least Tuesday. thought I would vent my frustrations.

  45. Zerxil said

    on a liter note

    “Carmen Electra Hopes To Be a Mom ‘Someday’
    “But I’m not rushing,” the actress, who’s releasing a line of portable stripper poles, tells PEOPLE”

  46. Chris C. said

    Maz, if you happen to be lingering around…

    I’d love your response to my questions in post 31. Hope your weekend was well.

    Happy Memorial Day to all.

  47. Zerxil said

    ODE to Fred.

    Fred we hardly knew you. But your comments will be missed. Now FLA & John will have to wait for another atheist named Fred to take your place and railroad we Christians with poorly researched “facts” and opinions. Sigh, we will have to wait at least 2 hours for that to happen… Barney you now have been upgraded back into Fred. You are not a second banana anymore. Have fun, and good night. 41 has a couple of addresses so it might be awhile.

  48. Zerxil said

    Biotherapy: Pour in the Happy, Hungry Maggots 10/24/2003
    If you are not the squeamish type, you might get a Halloween chill out of a National Geographic News story about maggot medicine. Maggots are coming back into vogue as doctor’s assistants. They eat away gangrene and compete with bacteria, leaving wounds clean and free of infection. John Church, a proponent, says there is an art to it. “You must have a happy, hungry maggot or you will get no results,” he cautions. “The environment on the wound must be what they would naturally seek out in nature.”
    Dr. Edgar Maeyens deprecates himself as just the assistant to the real surgeons – the maggots: “I’m just a supporting actor here,” he says. “The maggots are marvelous.” They love scavenging dead tissue. They dive right into the dirty work and leave a clean scene in just 72 hours or less. There’s truth to the old battlefield remedy after all. For patients with severe infections, untreatable because of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, maggots provide a promising alternative procedure (if the patient can stand that tingly sensation).

    Add this to the column, “Things considered pests, vermin, nasty and ugly today might have originally had beneficial purposes.” (See also March 14 headline). Other examples of biotherapeutic agents being studied include leeches and bees.

  49. Zerxil said

    31 you’ll get a bang out of this!

    Why the Big Bang is Wrong

    John Kierein

    The Big Bang theory of the universe is wrong because the cosmological red shift is due to the Compton effect rather than the Doppler effect. See The Endless, Boundless, Stable Universe and A Timeless, Boundless Equilibrium Universe by Grote Reber and Hubble’s Constant in Terms of the Compton Effect by John Kierein.

    Reber showed that the Compton effect was the cause of the red shift in order to explain the observations of bright very long wavelength extragalactic radio waves. Kierein used the Compton effect explanation to explain quasars and the red shift on the sun.

    Quasars may be much closer than their red shift would indicate if they have an “intrinsic” red shift due to being surrounded by a ‘fuzzy’ atmosphere containing free electrons and other material. This concentration of electrons produces the unusual red shift as the light travels through it and loses energy to these electrons per the Compton effect. If quasars are nearby, they may even exhibit proper motion in the sky as the Earth travels around the sun. Such a proper motion has been seen. See Quasar Absolute Proper Motion for a table that includes such proper motion observations.

    Some quasars may be double stars, with one member being an ordinary star and the other exhibiting a large red shift and being labeled as a quasar. The 100,000th Hubble Image is a good candidate for such a pair. Ken Kellerman of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory has also suggested that the red shift of quasars may be intrinsic and not an indication of their distance in a classic 1972 paper Radio Galaxies, Quasars and Cosmology published in the Astronomical Journal.

    The red shift on the sun is obviously not Doppler since the sun is not moving away from us. This shift shows a variation in magnitude that correlates with the number of electrons along the line of sight. It is smallest at the solar center and greatest at the limb where we are looking through the thickest part of the sun’s atmosphere. John Kierein and Brooks Sharp showed this correlation as a Compton effect interpretation in the journal “Solar Physics” in March of 1968. Compton himself believed this was the cause of the solar red shift (see Compton, A. H., 1923 Phil. Mag. 46, 897). The electrons on the sun are concentrated in altitude by gravity with the greatest density near the sun’s surface (the photosphere) to produce the sun’s intrinsic red shift. Similarly, the quasar red shift (and other bright, hot young stars’ “K effect” intrinsic red shift – see Arp’s book.) have an intrinsic Compton effect red shift concentrated at or very near the object’s surface.

    In addition to this red shift on the sun, which is there all the time and is on the order of 1 part in a million, there has been measured a gamma ray red shift that occurred only during a large solar flare. This solar flare red shift was nearly 1 percent or one part in a hundred! It was measured by the RHESSI satellite. The red shift varied by the element, the heavier element having a bigger red shift. I believe this red shift is also due to the Compton effect and is caused by the gamma rays ionizing the elements and releasing electrons from these element “targets”. The heavier elements have greater numbers of electrons to release and conconsequently have multiple Compton collisions and greater red shifts.

    For the Compton effect to cause the cosmological red shift, intergalactic space must have a density of free electrons and/or positrons. The further light travels through this transparent medium, the greater the red shift – and Hubble’s law follows. The existence of electrons and positrons in intergalactic space has been shown by observations of electron-positron annihilation gamma rays coming from above our galactic plane. This is the direction our galaxy is plowing into the intergalactic medium. (See “Peculiar Velocity of the Sun and its Relation to the Cosmic Microwave Background” by J.M. Stewart & D.W.Sciama, Nature vol. 216,p 748f, Nov. 25, 1967.) This is observed from the, appropriately named, Compton Gamma Ray Observatory in orbit above the Earth’s atmosphere.

    Indeed, while intergalactic space was once thought to be empty, now we know it is filled with clouds of high velocity gas that contain molecular hydrogen. This molecular hydrogen is thought to come from the condensation of hydrogen atoms that are just free electrons and protons. When light hits these free electrons, it produces the Compton effect red shift.

    If the Compton effect causes the red shift, the universe is not expanding, but rather is “static”. Max Born (and others – see below) did an analysis of the background temperature of such a universe and found that it doesn’t differ greatly from the observed 3 degree kelvin background.

    Grote Reber predicted that this interpretation of the red shift would result in a dispersion in the arrival times of extragalactic signals. The recent pinpointing of the extragalactic nature of gamma ray bursts and the delay in arrival times of longer wavelength radiation from these events confirms this prediction as shown in Dark Matter by John Kierein. This time lag for longer wavelengths is shown by Dr. Jay Norris to provide a method of measuring distance to the gamma ray source.

    Some say that the Compton effect should cause the light to be scattered and distance sources blurred. Does scattering cause blurring? Not necessarily. Note how the Milky Way stars at the edge of the Barnard 68 dust cloud are not at all blurred even though they are dimmed to extinction as their photons are absorbed and scattered. Also note how, when this object is viewed in the Infrared, the background stars shine right through this cloud without blurring! Dark matter causes light to bend without blurring.

    The Big Bang Has Many Problems

    There are a great many problems with the Big Bang Theory that have not been solved. Many of these are identified in Bill Mitchell’s paper, ” Big Bang Theory Under Fire”. These problems include the idea that there are many objects observed that are older than the time from the big bang, which is variously estimated to be from 10 to 15 billion years ago, with the best estimates being 10 billion years.

    Stars and globular clusters in our galaxy are thought to be older than 15 billion years and there seem to be similar stars that are seen in galaxies that are many billions of light years away from us and thus apparently formed closer to the time of the big bang.

    Measurements of the uranium content of stars has produced a minimum age of the universe of at least 12 billion years, whereas the best measurements of Hubble’s constant produce an age of 10 billion years. The iron content of quasars is much too great for their age.

    Even our earth is thought to be 5 billion years old, and is expected to exist for another 5 billion years before the sun expands and swallows it up. The atoms and molecules of the earth are thought to have been generated in previous stars that went through several cycles of supernovae. Even though supernovae are thought to last only fraction of our sun’s lifetime, it is highly improbable that there is sufficient time for these cycles to have occurred since a big bang.

    Similarly, our galaxy is rotating at a speed that only permits from 45 to 60 rotations since the big bang, which (according to Mitchell) is not a long enough time for it to achieve its spiral shape. Many spiral galaxies are seen at a large distance and therefore from a time closer to the big bang which would indicate they would have had time for even fewer rotations. Recent Hubble Photo shows spiral galaxies within 5% of big bang time leaving time for only 2 or 3 rotations at our galaxy’s rotation rate. The galaxies in this photo don’t seem to be crowded closer together as one would expect if they were really so close to the big bang.

    There are some very large chains of galaxies spread throughout the universe. It is believed these large structures, like the “great wall”, would require many hundreds of billions of years to form.

    Galactic redshift surveys show a regularity in the spacing of galaxies a quarter of the way to the time of the supposed big bang. This is totally different from a big bang expectation which would have them closer together as they get closer to the time of the big bang.

    How do galaxies collide if they are flying away from each other?

    Mature galaxies are found near the time of a supposed big bang that have not had enough time to develop.

    There are also some great problems with the “singularity” of the big bang. What happened before the big bang?? The big bang theorists can’t answer this question and just say it’s a meaningless question. (They like to say it’s like asking “What’s north of the North Pole?” – Actually it’s not like asking that at all. North is a direction; time is a measure of change. If there was no change before the big bang, then how could it have started?)

    If there was a big bang, the temperature of the background radiation would have had to be much higher in the past. Yet there are observed cosmic ray particles, that are protons or nuclei of atoms that are traveling through space at speeds approaching the speed of light. These particles can’t plow through the background radiation field at these higher temperatures without interacting with the photons of such a high temperature background and being stopped. But the highest energy cosmic rays are observed at energies beyond this theoretical cutoff energy.

    The temperature of intergalactic space was predicted by Guillaume, Eddington, Regener, Nernst, Herzberg, Finlay-Freundlich and Max Born based on a universe in dynamical equilibrium without expansion. They predicted the 2.7 degree K background temperature prior to and better than models based on the Big Bang. See “History of the 2.7 K Temperature Prior to Penzias and Wilson” by A. K. T. Assis and M. C. D. Neves in Aperion Vol.2, Nr. 3, page 79f, July 1995. See also their other paper: “Redshift revisited” (Unfortunately, their second paper misses the greater number of collisions a longer wavelength photon has when the red shift is comprised of multiple Compton interactions.)

    There are many other discrepancies in redshift observations that are much better explained by non-Doppler shifts. Hubble, of course, didn’t agree that the redshift was Doppler (see his book “The Observational Approach to Cosmology” or Allan Sandage’s discussion of Hubble’s beliefs). There were several difficulties with this interpretation that he pointed out. Not the least of which is that if it were Doppler, then not only should each photon be stretched out by the Doppler effect, but also the distance between each photon. Because the photon flux is reduced, this causes the object undergoing a Doppler redshift to appear less bright than a corresponding object undergoing a non-doppler redshift. Hubble knew his observations were not in agreement with this brightness correction. He also knew that a simpler, non-curved-space cosmology resulted from a non-Doppler interpretation, and he felt that simpler was better. He didn’t know what causes the photons to lose energy as they travel through space, but he felt that it is some “new principle of nature” that I think is the Compton effect.

    As big bang theorists attempt to solve the age problem by making the time to the big bang longer, they exacerbate the quasar problem. Quasars become even farther away and intrinsically brighter. Yet their temperature remains that of ordinary stars as exhibited by emission spectra of metallic ions that can only exist at a limited range of temperature. They are known to be about stellar size since they vary in brightness on a scale of a few minutes to seconds. How do they stay so bright at such a low temperature in such a small volume? They can’t. They must have an intrinsic non-Doppler redshift and be nearby to be explained.

    If neutrinos have mass about 1 ten millionth the mass of the electron, their Compton Effect red shift would be 10 million times that of that of the electron. The probability of a neutrino Compton Effect remains to be determined.

    Paul Marmet has presented ideas very similar to the idea that the Compton effect causes the red shift and presents additional evidence against the big bang at his web site.

    The stability of a static universe with a Compton Effect cosmological red shift is explained here and another paper can be found here. A paper showing no time dilation in quasar variability can be found here. Time dilation would be required if the quasar red shift were Doppler, so this result indicates an intrinsic non-Doppler quasar red shift such as a Compton effect red shift.

    You’ll love William Mitchell’s new book: “Bye Bye Big Bang: Hello Reality” . Also Lyndon Ashmore’s new book: “Big Bang Blasted”.

    Ever wonder what causes gravity? See the new book: PUSHING GRAVITY.

    The videotape, “Gravity and the Red Shift”, is also available from the author. It describes the cause of gravity in the endless, static universe. $5 for a postpaid copy ordered from jkierein@lycos.com.

    I didn’t understand it really but hey it is an argument.

  50. Fred said

    What is disturbing for me is that this WTRU can just get on the air and claim that they have the truth, even though all they really have is their subjective opinion of some absolute truth that doesn’t even exist. Truth never demand belief, that is what religions and communism do. Therefore we know just from this that WTRU and the Christians who claim to have the “truth” definitely do not. It’s just like Fox News telling us every few minutes that they are “fair and balanced.” Sure they are. If they were really fair and balanced they wouldn’t have to keep telling us that. It’s the same with WTRU and Christians in general. If they really had the truth it would be apparent, they wouldn’t have to keep claiming they do. Again, truth doesn’t demand belief.

  51. Zerxil said

    They do If truth is subjective. Truth demands belief. If you don’t believe in truth, Ignorance of course can kill you.

  52. Zerxil said

    26, wood floats…

  53. Fred said

    Zerxil, you could never pass a frist year philosophy course if you think truth demands belief. You could not be MORE wrong. The boat described in the Bible that Noah supposedly built would have fallen apart in the rain and never could have floated for a second. Boat builders were asked about the Noah story on Natl Geo last year. They’re still laughing at the question.

  54. Fred said

    Truth really means just being honest. I’ve never met an honest Christian and I never will. Christianity is built on nothing but lies, by liars for liars. There isn’t anything “true” about Christianity at all.

  55. Maz said

    Moderstor: Thankyou for the chance to respond to Fred claims of offense, but to be absoutely honest, I think Freds far outweighs mine.
    And just one last word to Fred, I certainly havn’t ”buckled” as you say, I am wise enough to know when to stop a debate with someone, especially when they resort to offense, threat and personal abuse. We as Christians should expect this kind of offensive behavior from someone who is totally blind to our wonderful God. I think we should all pray for him.

    From now on I shall only answer civil posts. Thankyou Moderator.

  56. Maz said

    Chris: Posts #31 & #45.
    ”Spanner in the works” may not be accurate an expression atleast not to me as I don’t believe evolution works or has ever worked, but it is a spanner or spanners none the less for evolutionists.
    I’v mentioned this before but I believe a dinosaur fossil was found that contained soft tissue which could not have survived the millions of years in the ground as evolutionists believe.

    Concerning the Hubble telescope. Scientists have assumed that matter is spread uniformly throughout space. This assumption known as the Cosmological Principle became the foundation for the standard ‘Big Bang’ model describing the origin and evolution of the Universe.
    But with modern technology…e.g. Hubbles telescope…astronomers have now observed substantially more of the Universe than in Einsteins day , and as they peer into space the Universe appears anything but uniform in nature.
    Galaxies are gathered together in great chains and walls which curl around vast regions of empty space known as ‘voids’.
    But most cosmologists are still clinging to the hope that the Universe is ‘smooth’ on large scales. As the Professor of Astrophysics at Nottingham University acknowledges, once they accept that the Universe is not uniform, ”We’re lost…the foundations of the Big Bang models would crumble away. We’d be left with no explanation for the Big Bang, or galaxy formation, or the distribution of galaxies in the Universe.”

    There is also the question of how our solar system was formed. Astronomers searching for planets orbiting other stars have found several, but it has created a problem for the accretion disc theory of the beginning of our solar system and the formation of planets. They have found large gas giants, some larger than Jupiter, orbiting, apparently, far too close to their star. This seems to suggest to the astronomers that their theory of the origins of our solar system is flawed.

    And if anyone is interested, the Nasa’s Phoenix space craft has landed safely on Mars’s North pole on an expedition to find out whether there is life on the Red Planet.
    They won’t find any ofcourse, but then that’s my belief.

  57. Maz said

    Is there any historical proof that Jesus existed?
    The ancient historical record provides examples of writers, philosophers and historians who lived during or not long after the time Jesus is believed to have lived and who testify to the fact that he was a real person. We will look at what some of these people have said.

    Cornelius Tacitus
    Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record.

    Lucian of Samosata
    Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus.

    Suetonius
    Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus [another misspelling of Christus or Christ].

    Pliny the Younger
    Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god.

    Thallus and Phlegon
    Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when Jesus died.

    Mara Bar-Serapion
    Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.

    Josephus
    Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead!

    The four Gospels
    The four Gospels are the four accounts of Jesus’ life, which are contained in the New Testament part of the Bible. Historians will tell you that the closer an historical document is written to the time of the events it describes, the generally more reliable it is as a source of information about those events. Matthew’s Gospel account of Jesus’ life is now reckoned to have been written sometime between AD 70 and AD 80. Mark’s Gospel is dated between AD. 50 and AD. 65. Luke’s Gospel is dated in the early AD 60s and John’s Gospel sometime between AD 80 and 100. If Jesus died sometime in the AD 30s, it is clear that Mark, Luke and Matthew wrote their Gospels within living memory of Jesus’ death. John’s Gospel comes later and probably outside of living memory for most as John lived to an unusually old age for the ancient period, but the accuracy of his Gospel was verified no doubt by those who read the earlier Gospels.

    Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally. Matthew was a former tax collector who became a disciple of Jesus. Mark was a close associate of Simon Peter, who is regarded as being Jesus’ most prominent disciple whilst Jesus was on the earth. Luke was a close associate of Paul who is the most famous of Christian missionaries and who wrote the largest contribution to the New Testament. Paul, in turn, was a close colleague of Simon Peter. John was the former fisherman who became the closest disciple of Jesus. The accounts of such men need to be considered at least seriously!

  58. Fred said

    A complete record of all the things Jesus never said, all the places he never walked, and all the miracles he never worked. “No Evidence of Non-existence” – Welcome to the Twilight Zone
    In an oddly distorted, negative universe Christian apologists declare that there is “no evidence” for their godman’s non-existence, as if it should be quite natural to believe in the most fantastic, illogical and unsubstantiated claims unless there was evidence to the contrary. If this stance had any viability, why stop at Jesus? Why not believe in Zeus, leprechauns and the tooth fairy?

    A favourite tack of the Saved is to affect a yawn, mutter “that old stuff again” and impatiently declare that Jesus’s non-existence is a 19th century rationalist’s heresy long since disposed of by “solid evidence”.

    The ringing claim of “more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for any other person of his day” is followed by a potpourri of ancient sources, as if a list made long enough could disguise the fact that NOT A SINGLE SOURCE EVER QUOTED IS FROM THE TIME OF THE GODMAN.

    Early non-Christian writers, including the favourite hostages – Josephus, Suetonius, Pliny and Tacitus – are discussed in several books.

    But stepping around the smokescreen thrown up by evidence that early Christians certainly existed (and had a motley assortment of beliefs!), is the evidence for many of history’s greatest heroes and villains really so tenuous?

    Josephus (c37-100 AD)

    Flavius Josephus is a highly respected and much-quoted Romano-Jewish historian. The early Christians were zealous readers of his work.

    A native of Judea, living in the 1st century AD, Josephus was actually governor of Galilee for a time (prior to the war of 70 AD) – the very province in which Jesus allegedly did his wonders. Though not born until 37 AD and therefore not a contemporary witness to any Jesus-character, Josephus at one point even lived in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle.

    Josephus’s two major tomes are History of The Jewish War and The Antiquities of the Jews. In these complementary works, the former written in the 70s, the latter in the 90s AD, Josephus mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era.

    At face value, Josephus appears to be the answer to the Christian apologist’s dreams.

    In a single paragraph (the so-called Testimonium Flavianum) Josephus confirms every salient aspect of the Christ-myth:

    1. Jesus’s existence 2. his ‘more than human’ status 3. his miracle working 4. his teaching 5. his ministry among the Jews and the Gentiles 6. his Messiahship 7. his condemnation by the Jewish priests 8. his sentence by Pilate 9. his death on the cross 10. the devotion of his followers 11. his resurrection on the 3rd day 12. his post-death appearance 13. his fulfillment of divine prophesy 14. the successful continuance of the Christians.

    In just 127 words Josephus confirms everything – now that is a miracle!

    BUT WAIT A MINUTE …
    Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

    The third century Church ‘Father’ Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this ‘golden paragraph’ from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was “not believing in Jesus as the Christ.”

    Origen did not quote the ‘golden paragraph’ because this paragraph had not yet been written.

    It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen’s third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.

    Josephus knows nothing of Christians

    It was the around the year 53 AD that Josephus decided to investigate the sects among the Jews. According to the gospel fable this was the period of explosive growth for the Christian faith: ” the churches … throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria … were edified… and … were multiplied.” – Acts 9:31.

    This is also the time of the so-called “Council of Jerusalem” when supposedly Paul regaled the brothers with tales of “miracles and wonders” among the gentiles (Acts 15.12).

    And yet Josephus knows nothing of all this:

    “When I was sixteen years old, I decided to get experience with the various sects that are among us. These are three: as we have said many times, the first, that of the Pharisees, the second that of the Saduccees, the third, that of the Essenes. For I thought that in this way I would choose best, if I carefully examined them all. Therefore, submitting myself to strict training, I passed through the three groups.” – Life, 2.

    Josephus elsewhere does record a “fourth sect of Jewish philosophy” and reports that it was a “mad distemper” agitating the entire country. But it has nothing to do with Christianity and its superstar:

    “But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord … And it was in Gessius Florus’s time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy.” – Antiquities 18.23.

    Nothing could better illustrate the bogus nature of the Testimonium than the remaining corpus of Josephus’s work.

    Consider, also, the anomalies:

    1. How could Josephus claim that Jesus had been the answer to his messianic hopes yet remain an orthodox Jew?
    The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian!

    2. If Josephus really thought Jesus had been ‘the Christ’ surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else’s (Pilate’s) story?

    In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed ‘Egyptian Jew’ messiah.

    It is striking that though Josephus confirms everything the Christians could wish for, he adds nothing that is not in the gospel narratives, nothing that would have been unknown by Christians already.

    3. The passage is out of context. Book 18 starts with the Roman taxation under Cyrenius in 6 AD, talks about various Jewish sects at the time, including the Essenes, and a sect of Judas the Galilean. He discusses Herod’s building of various cities, the succession of priests and procurators, and so on.

    Chapter 3 starts with a sedition against Pilate who planned to slaughter all the Jews but changed his mind. Pilate then used sacred money to supply water to Jerusalem, and the Jews protested. Pilate sent spies among the Jews with concealed weapons, and there was a great massacre.

    Then comes the paragraph about Jesus, and immediately after it, Josephus continues:

    ‘And about the same time another terrible misfortune confounded the Jews …’
    Josephus, an orthodox Jew, would not have thought the Christian story to be ‘another terrible misfortune.’ It is only a Christian who would have considered this to be a Jewish tragedy.

    Paragraph 3 can be lifted out of the text with no damage to the chapter. It flows better without it. Outside of this tiny paragraph, in all of Josephus’s voluminous works, there is not a single reference to Christianity anywhere.

    4. The phrase ‘to this day’ confirms that this is a later interpolation. There was no ‘tribe of Christians’ during Josephus’s time. Christianity did not get off the ground until the second century.

    5. The hyperbolic language is uncharacteristic of the historian:

    ‘… as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.”
    This is the stuff of Christian propaganda.

    REALITY CHECK
    In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Constantine.

    Bishop Eusebius, that great Church propagandist and self-confessed liar-for-god, was the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus, about the year 340 AD. This was after the Christians had become the custodians of religious correctness.

    Whole libraries of antiquity were torched by the Christians. Yet unlike the works of his Jewish contemporaries, the histories of Josephus survived. They survived because the Christian censors had a use for them. They planted evidence on Josephus, turning the leading Jewish historian of his day into a witness for Jesus Christ ! Finding no references to Jesus anywhere in Josephus’s genuine work, they interpolated a brief but all-embracing reference based purely on Christian belief.

    Do we need to look any further to identify Eusebius himself as the forger?

    Sanctioned by the imperial propagandist every Christian commentator for the next thirteen centuries accepted unquestioningly the entire Testimonium Flavianum, along with its declaration that Jesus “was the Messiah.”

    And even in the twenty first century scholars who should know better trot out a truncated version of the ‘golden paragraph’ in a scurrilous attempt to keep Josephus ‘on message.’

  59. Fred said

    Maz you’ve been proved wrong again.

  60. F. L. A. said

    Do you work so hard like this against other theological beliefs like you do with those theologies of the Middle East, Fred?
    If so, then I would be interested in hearing your views about other theologies in the future[if you should last so long, that is.].
    And if not, then why focus your efforts only on the theologies of the Middle East? Just curious.

  61. Tripp said

    Good point, F.L.A. If Fred claims there is no god, then he must be referring to every religion. Not just Christianity. All those Hindu gods must not be real either.

    My, where is King Thomas when we need him?

    (:

  62. Chris C. said

    Re: Maz (post 56)

    I’ll have to check on the internet to see if I an find anything about a dinosaur with flesh in tact.

    As far as the cosmological principle goes, what you have stated is a distortion of truth. Yes, there are places that are more densely packed with galaxies and there are ‘voids’. But if you take any megaparsec by megaparec region of space you get a similar composition of atoms, numbers of galaxies, etc. That’s not to say the universe is perfectly uniform and symmetrical. But, on the whole, it is homogenous and evenly spread through any given portion of space. And it is true that most of the planets we have thus far been able to detect are large planets which orbit close to stars. This is simply because of limitations in our own equipment. The further a planet is from its star, the harder it is to detect. But gas giants near stars does not defy the accretion disk theory of stellar formation. In fact there is speculation that many gas giants form in the ‘jupiter region’ and then process towards the star if knocked off course early in the post-accretion disk stage. Its all a bit more technical than I can describe without my research in front of me. I’ll write some more when I’m off work.

    Also, I want to briefly respond to some of zerxil’s info in post 49. First of all, the info you copied in is outright wrong about the age of the universe. In 2005 the WMAP satellite calculated the hubble constant to about 77 kilometers per second per megaparsec. Since the hubble constant tells you how fast everything is expanding, the inverse of the hubble constant tells you how long everything has been expanding. so 1/h (with some unit conversions) yields about 13.73 billion years; not 10, as zerxil’s work stated.

    Also, all matter within the universe is bound by the speed of light. However, the initial expansion of the universe was not necessarily bound by the speed of light. Thus, stars that are very far away may appear to be more than 13.73 billion years old. This is because we use the constant speed of light to estimate age. However, in the early universe, the initial expansion may have been 1.3 or 1.4 times the speed of light, and therefore the calculations for such very old, distant objects would be off. I know thats a bit technical and I probably did a terrible job of explaining it. But as someone who has a working knowledge of cosmology, astronomy, and these subjects, I can say that the moajority of what zerxil posted was flat-out wrong and most of the rest was distorted. I will keep researching those things that were new to me, however. Good day.

  63. Maz said

    Chris: As far as the voids in Space are concerned I believe they are significantly large to cause a problem for the BIg Bang. Also I believe there are still uncertainties in the Universe that make it impossible to calculate it’s true age, and what about time dilation or the nature of gravity? Scientists don’t know it all, they are still learning and discovering things they have never seen before.
    And do you believe that the speed of light could have slowed down signficantly since the beginning of creation? I always wonder why the speed of light is 186,000 mps……have you any ideas?

  64. F. L. A. said

    Chris C., you can find some information on it at http://www.msnbc.msn.com.
    It’s actually some tendon and faint muscle “residue” with blood vessel near the femur of T. Rex fossilized , not like a whole mummified dinosaur carcase, and of course it’s also dated at 70 million years of age too, but I’m sure that’s just evolutionists propaganda[Ha! Ha!].

  65. John said

    Sorry, the above post was from me.Forgot to change the name.

  66. Maz said

    Chris: I’v found information on Answers in Genesis about a dinosaur fossil found with soft fibrous tissue and also microscopic red blood cells (and immunological evidence of hemoglobin) in the bone. It’s under ‘Dinosaurs’ in the ‘Get Answers’ section. It still begs the question how it could last millions of years without completely deteriorating. It also has pictures.

  67. ADB said

    I’m not a young-earther, but have seen TV specials (Discovery Channel, History Channel sort) on dinosaurs that described a small number of fossils (T- Rex possibly) that did have trace soft tissue remaining. Unfortunately, I don’t recall how it was theorized that the tissue could have survived 200,000,0000 years.

    Best Wishes

  68. Fred said

    FLA I don’t remember stating that there is no god. I don’t believe any god exists and as far as religions go, they are all just different versions of the same untruth. That would be that there is some unseen war going on between good and evil usually involving invisible deities and various types of fairies. That’s all just a bunch of nonsense that ancient superstitious animal sacrificing primitives believed.

    Christians at one time or another have all fallen for a classic example of the false dicotomy. Their parents or evangelist presents with with two choices: either believe what they do about Jesus or burn in hell for all eternity for rejecting Jesus. Any first year philosophy student would immediately recognize this as a textbook illustration of the false dicotomy and logical fallacy and respond that there is a third much more plausible choice that wasn’t mentioned. The student can just ignore the evanglelist and will go neither heaven or hell since it cannot be shown that either place exists. The evangelist themselves never present this third choice because they were tricked by the same false dichotomy when they became Christians. This is one proof that Christianity is false.

    Islam is probably worse than Christianity. Christianity though, has fought an extremely harmful and dangeous war on science for 2000 years. Christians have deinied every scientific discovery that has been made for the last 2000 years, even the ones made by Christian scientists! They harrassed Newton and Copernicus, arrested Galileo and burned Bruno at the stake calling all of them and their fellow scientists witches. Fundamentalist Christians today not only still deny evolution but also cosmology, geology, anthropology, oceanography, astronomy, physics, cell theory, all modern science really. They deny global warming only because scientists are the ones telling us about it. They think science should be done by democracy!

    The worst thing about religions though is that they are false. The fact that such a thing as apologetics even exists proves the weakness of the theistic argument. The fact that religions demand belief in the unseen and unknown also proves they are false because truth does not demand belief. Another thing that proves them all false is that while they claim to be based on divine revelation they all have to be spread by word of mouth from person to person. It’s just one person passing their superstitions onto another. Christianity’s superstions though, are totally fear-based. Atheism isn’t a rejection os any known or unknown Gods. Atheism is a rejection of what all PEOPlE say about all Gods. All Christians should realize that they got their religious beliefs from other PEOPLE. I cannot think of anything that could be more foolish.

  69. Maz said

    John: I hope you won’t mind me changing the subject for a moment…..we always seem to get onto evolution whatever the suject and we do have ”Was Darwin right?” (for the second time) for that. I can’t find your post where you mentioned your knowledge of the Torah but I was just wondering if you knew about a Russian mathematician named Dr. Ivan Panin, an agnostic who lived in the last century, who found a septenary design in the Hebrew scriptures?

  70. Maz said

    P.S: And before anyone jump in and points out my supposed omission….yes, this agnostic became a Christian.

  71. F. L. A. said

    “That’s all just a bunch of nonsense that ancient superstitious animal sacrificing primatives believed.”
    You mean, BELIEVE.
    Have a fun day.

  72. Maz said

    For anyone who is truly interested in the historicity of Jesus can go to this very helpful site:
    http://www.sowhataboutjesus.com

  73. Fred said

    For anyone who is REALLY interested in the truth about Jesus: Jesusneverexisted.com. You’ll have to twist your brain into a two thousand year old pretzel to believe in Jesus after you check THAT cite out. I dare you Christians to check it out.

  74. Maz said

    There is one piece of evidence that no athiest, evolutionist or any unbeliever can argue against (tho they will attempt an explanation of delusion or some other mental abnormality) that is, that Jesus Christ (who never existed in their mind) changes lives. He changed mine.
    He changes people for good. Drug dealers, killers, alcaholics, prostitutes, even terrorists, and yes…even evolutionists and athiests among others can be and are changed into law abiding, loving, caring people, who love God.
    I KNOW I am not the person I was before I came to Christ. When I look back at my old self, I see another person, because I was born-again when I came to know my Savior. It is a very REAL experience, like coming out from a dark place and seeing things in the light….everything is clear.
    Scoffers can scoff and ridicule but they will never be able to take away what Jesus Christ has given me. I have peace of mind and heart, I know my purpose in life, and I KNOW where I am going when I die. I am greatly concerned for those who may find out the truth when it will be too late, but there’s nothing I can do about that, that is their choice. Everyone has free will to choose what they believe.
    For anyone who is so opposed to God, Christ and Christianity I guess there is nothing else one can say. May God open up their understanding before it is too late.

  75. Chris C. said

    Maz, I’m not here to scoff at your story. I am glad for people to find happiness and purpose in their lives by any peacful means. However, given that every other religion has adherants who make the same claims (changed life, happiness, higher purpose), either those other religions are equally as true as yours, or there is another, natural explanation for the phenomenon.

  76. Maz said

    Chris: I wasn’t really refering to you Chris when I talked of those who scoff, I don’t mind people disagreeing with me and other Chistians, it’s the way they do it that is the problem.
    Why isn’t everyone content to put their opinions forward without insulting peoples inteligence?
    Yes, there are many similarities in religious belief, some are more subtle than others. But I believe there is one absolute truth, and I believe in the God that Created the Heavens and earth as spoken of in Genesis.
    I did ask John this (I hope he will reply), but do you know about Dr. Ivan Panin’s
    Septenary Design in the Hebrew scriptures? It is an amazing witness to the Divine nature of the OT. Mathematical and scientific proof of the Bible’s authenticity?

  77. F. L. A. said

    I never did thank you for your answer to my question Fred, so….thank you for your answer of post#68.

    John is at work Maz.You will have to wait until he gets home, feeds his animals, waters the gardens, gets his meals in order, takes care of anything else that needs attending, and then goes over two miles to his folks house to look on their computer an see your questions, and then see what he can do for you.
    All good things to those who wait Maz.

  78. zerxil said

    Hey Fred is it true that 99.999% of all scientific evidence we have now was because of the ground work done by Christians?

  79. John said

    Superstitious animal sacrificing primitive here[grin].
    Hello Maz. We don’t ALWAYS end up discussing evolution.Usually it seems we just go round and round about History, Polytheism and Monotheism[smile].Yes I know if the Septenary Design in the Hebrew Scriptures. What do you want to know about it?

    Fred, to try and put it very simply,the Deities are attracted to those who are attracted to them.I think that they need our belief to some degree because it helps to define them and give them purpose.And, as in almost any relationship, you will get[ideally] what you give.If you give nothing but bitterness and skepticism then you won’t get any breaks.You might even get messed with.We get the Deities that we deserve.I realize that this may be unsatisfactory for you, but I AM just trying to be very simple about this, for I think that you may not really care about this idea, and that’s fine.I just wanted to give you my 2 cents worth on your post #68.

  80. Fred said

    Maz, you say Jesus changed you life and that proves his existence? Well Buddha and Krishna were supposedly born to virgins and change lives too but there isn’t any evidence they existed either. Alla certainly changes lives and even causes people to end them for him. Does that mean Alla is real too?

    Zerxil, it is not true that Christians laid the groundwork for 99% of all the scientific evidence we now have. Christians love to claim that this scientist or that was a Christian during the past but we are talking about a past in which people HAD to profess Christianity or be harrassed, arrested, tortured and put to death. If you read what any of these famous scientists really thought about their Christian faith it is obvious that almost none of them accepted what modern Christians would call essential Christian doctrine. Many rejected the deity of Christ and also the God of the Old Testament. Christians still try to claim people like Albert Einsten believed in God when it is clear that he did not: “It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly…. – Albert Einstein. Had Einsten made this statement a couple centuries earlier he would no doubt have been burned at the stake like Bruno was.

    The Christian propaganda machine would have you believe a lot of stuff that isn’t true, especially when it comes to science and scientists. They also tell lies about our Founding Fathers being Christians (they weren’t) and Adolph Hitler not being one (he most certainly was and this easy to prove). Zerxil, if a Christian is saying something there is an easy way to tell if they are lying. Their lips are moving.

  81. Fred said

    Sorry, I left out a word. If a Christian propagandist is saying something….. I didn’t mean to infer Christians lie every time they speak. Even George Bush tells the truth sometimes.

  82. Maz said

    John: I really just wanted to know if you believe it. Any code (just like DNA…I know, it’s my favourite proof for Design and a Designer!) any patern, any design within nature or anything else must surely be proof of intelligence (and especially the Bible, because this comes from Someone beyond human intelligence….the Septenary Design among others cannot be denied. But ofcourse someone will try. What do you think John?

  83. Fred said

    Maz appeals to the complexity of DNA to prove design, a classic case of backward reasoning. Like all creationists, Maz looks at modern DNA complexity, the result of 4 billion years of evolution, and thinks this type of complexity just popped into existence. Appeals to the complexity or supposed design of DNA are empty strawmen. The first cells had no DNA and reprodueced by simply falling apart. No one will ever prove the universe exhibits design and all one has to do is look through a telescope at the universe to see that it is not designed, but rather a very chaotic place.

  84. Maz said

    DNA contains intelligent information, not just complexity, that didn’t ”just pop into existence”, it was created by a Creator God. This has been stated many times before.

  85. F. L. A. said

    No proof that “Buddah” existed? I’m begining to wonder Fred exactly what it takes to confirm something as “proven” to you.Or perhaps it’s simply a matter of said evidences not being associated with any theology in any way? Hmmmmm.

  86. zerxil said

    32) don’t be a butt head.

    83) “look through a telescope at the universe to see that it is not designed, but rather a very chaotic place.” so your saying we might fall into the sun at any time??

  87. zerxil said

    So North America was not started as a penal colony of religious people from England?

  88. Chris C. said

    Re: post 86

    No Zerx, we won’t be falling into the sun anytime soon. But in about 5 billion years we will be consumed by it as the core begins to burn helium and the outer shell expands, heats, and engulfs the inner 4 planets.

    The universe is very orderly in that it obeys strict laws. It is “chaoitc” in the sense that stars are exploding, galaxies colliding, and nebulae accreting to form new stars all the time.

  89. F. L. A. said

    Chris C., what about Worm Holes and Black Holes?

  90. John said

    Butt Head, Zerxil? I actually was not trying to be one of those.This time[smile].

  91. zerxil said

    88. YES, BUT CAN YOU SEE THAT WITH A TELESCOPE.

    90. thats the rule on not getting edited. Sorry wasn’t expressive enough.

  92. John said

    Ahhh.

  93. Chris C. said

    Can we see what with a telescpe?

    Stars Exploding? Yes. Although big, type II supernovae don’t occurr often and close enough to be visible to the naked eye. The last one in the 16th century (i think) was so bright it was visible in the daytime sky and brighter than the moon at night.

    Galaxies Colliding? Well there is observation evidence although they collide on a time scale much longer than a human life, so we dont atually see the full collision.

    New Stars Forming? Again, this process takes a few million years so we don’t see it happen from start to finish. But it is a process we understand and we know where the stars form. When we look at these clouds and nubulae where stars form we can observe (not necessarily in the visible spectrum) star birth.

  94. Chris C. said

    Worm Holes are purely theoretical as far as I know. I’m not too well versed in the science though.

    As far as black holes, what are you looking for? Im no expert, but I know a little.

  95. zerxil said

    Chris your saying that the universe is more orderly than chaotic, right? With laws and how fast planets spin & revolve around suns. New Stars forming, Galaxies colliding, & stars exploding aren’t chaotic in that there are rules & laws they follow. I know almost nothing about black holes any info would be appreciated. I’m looking it up, but we can talk about it here since everyone agrees Darwin is wrong.

  96. zerxil said

    “However, the final, correct description of black holes, requiring a theory of quantum gravity, is unknown.”

    never mind.

  97. Maz said

    Havn’t they found black holes at the center of most galaxies? Astronomers think there is one lurking in our own.

  98. zerxil said

    Such observations have resulted in the general scientific consensus that — barring a breakdown of our understanding nature— black holes do exist in our universe somewhere

  99. Fred said

    FLA Have you read the story of how Buddha’s mother was impregnated by the Holy Spirit and that he was born to a virgin? Do you believe that Buddha was born that way? There isn’t any evidence that the supposed founder of Islam, Muhammed, existed either. Religions all evolve from other religions and the ones we have now have no one founder. Stories about where the religion came from and who founded it evolve like everything else. Zeitgeist and The God Who Wasn’t There are movies that attempt to illustrate this point.

  100. ADB said

    Regarding black holes, if my astronomy class from many moons ago serves me correctly, a black hole results from the decay and collapse of super massive stars. As they expand and burn, they slowly cool. Eventually, they cool too much and begin to collapse. They then collapse into a object so dense and massive that not even light can escape its gravity. This supposedly happens over enormous spans of time. As my degrees are in history and divinity, there are lots and lots and lots… of folks better read in astronomy who can add to or correct this.

  101. Chris C. said

    ADB is right that black holes result from the collapse of black holes, however I may add a few important points:

    Stars more than 8 times the mass of our sun usually meet the end of their life in what is known as a type II supernova. Stars run by burning hydrogen at their core. As a byproduct of the H burning, helium (He) is produced. Some stars which are massive enough can actually burn the He when they run out of H. Byproducts of HE burning can be oxygen (O), silicon, beryllium, deuterium, etc. Very massive stars continue to burn new elements until they reach Iron (Fe). It’s all a great deal more chemically complex, but basically, Iron56 is a stable element and thus the stars cannot engage in Iron burning. Thus the star’s engine basically stops, it briefly expands (for a millisecond or so) and then collapses in on itself. All of the elements are compressed into a core about the size of Manhattan, and then this core “rebounds” and ejects the outer layers of the star, including most of the heavy elements formed and lots of gas and dust.

    For stars between 8 and 20 times the mass of the sun, the remains of the star are mostly blown away (this is what creates the gas clouds called nebulae and also this is where all the heavy elements in the universe come from). What is left is core of neutrons roughly the size of Manhattan but twice as massive as the sun. A density of roughly trillions of kilograms per meter squared. A comparable density would be holding the mass of Mount Everest in your palm. These neutron stars are supported by what is known as “neutron degeneracy pressure”. Basically, there is a force that allows this incredibly dense material to be supported and not collapse in on itself.

    However, some stars are more than 20 times the mass of the sun. When they collapse their core is greater than the special mass name The Chandrasekhar Mass. The Chandrasekhar Mass is the mass t which neutron stars collapse into black holes. As they collapse in this same type II supernovae, their collapse does not halt due to neutron degeneracy pressure. The mass is simply too much to be supported by NDP. The collapse continues until all the mass collapses to a singularity. This amount of mass packed into such a miniscule space creates a gravitational field so strong that nothing, not even light, can escape. Light is indeed a particle, and as matter, is bound by gravity. That is what even it cannot escape the gravity of a black hole.

    Lots of observational evidence exists for black holes such as gamma ray bursts and the non existence of neutron stars more than the Chandrasekhar Mass. What we do not understand is how matter acts at such dense properties. For that, as mentioned above, we need a cohesive theory that blends Newton and Einstein’s ideas of gravity and our current understanding of quantum physics. Until that theory of “quantum gravity” is reached, we may not know whether black hole singularities are infinitely small or just as small as an electron, and we may not know how matter acts in the singularity.

    That’s the extent of the knowledge of the top of my head. I have some notes somewhere. Obviously, I find the topic fascinating. Hopefully I’ve done a half-decent job of explanation.

  102. Maz said

    #99: Absolute rubbish.

  103. Fred said

    Maz, calling the truth about your religion rubbish won’t change a thing. Your Bible was debunked long before any religious fanatics voted on which books should be the scripture for their church. How is it that men writing stories and then men voting on which stories are most believable makes them the Word of God. You creationists think the Bible just dropped out of the sky or something. No one who knows the true origins of the Bible believes a word of it.

  104. Maz said

    #103 So millions upon millions of people all over the world are wrong and you are right.
    Millions of people in history who followed Christ have given their lives for their faith. And they still do.
    The Spanish Inquisition was a RELIGIOUS
    Thousands still suffer persicution for their faith in the Christ you so fervently deny.

  105. Maz said

    OOps! I will continue…..The Spanish Inquisition was a RELIGIOUS move against true followers of Jesus Christ. Believers were terribly tortured and burnt at the stake. Looks like Christians against Christians?? Ofcourse not. It was so called RELIGION coming against the True Church of Jesus Christ.
    And I am not religious….I have no religion….I am a follower of Jesus Christ and I have faith in Him alone, not in Martin Luther or any other person or denomination.
    And I do not believe the Bible just ‘dropped out of the sky’.
    As I said before….you do tend to speak absolute rubbish.

  106. F. L. A. said

    Thank you for you input ADB and Chris C. You’re efforts were most helpful.
    Fred is gone now……but to answer his question anyway, yes I knew that about the man[Prince Siddhartha] that became known simply as “Buddha”, born in 563 B.C.E. Weather or not the legends and myths have any truths buried within them[and they may well have], my main point was that he DID once actually exist.So…perhaps long ago someone that became known simply as “Jesus Christ” did too.Maybe there was a real man behind the myth of “Hercules” the Greek strong man, “Goliath” the Middle Eastern giant, and “Merlin” the Druid Wizard.It is not impossible.

  107. zerxil said

    Merlin was Irish & Aurther was a barbarian legend.

    Less than 100 people died through the whole Inquisition. I think about 56 in Spain. I know thats bad but com’on 100 people. that many died since I started writing this to now.

  108. zerxil said

    So how do we know light gets sucked into and or doesn’t escape black holes?
    I think black holes are a star being born & or dieing. Almost like the pheinex. That would explain why we haven’t found any of them. Stuff gets compressed compressed and than boom.

    “infinitely small” that seams a contradiction.

  109. Chris C. said

    Because we can use the equation for escape velocity and plug in the mass of the black hole and the speed of light and see that it would reguire speeds greater than the speed of light to escape the gravity of the black hole. There’s lots of other observational evidence. The Wikipedia on Black Holes is pretty well done actually…for all of this basic info.

  110. Maz said

    Zerxil: Not that I know how many died, though no doubt many more were tortured horribly for their faith during the Inquisition, but where do you get the figure of less than a hundred?
    I have the Foxes book of Martyrs. Has anyone else read any of it’s contents. Quite sobering reading.

  111. Zerxil said

    So, what is the mass of black holes? 109 Yes, I quoted them. on 98 too forgot the””.

  112. Zerxil said

    Maz, the Crusades you might be thinking of. I was not going to give that to FRED though 🙂

  113. Maz said

    You can also get some really interesting info on a Black Hole site by Hubble.
    They tell us that our own galaxy has a massive black hole at the center. Ofcourse it’s ten’s of thousands of light years away (we are near the edge about 30,000 ly from the center), so we’re not in any danger.
    Another galaxy is the Andromeda, our nearest large spiral galaxy neighbour about 2 ml.ly away, it contains another massive black hole. Infact they have found many galaxies that contain black holes.

  114. F. L. A. said

    Maz, John has been working longer, harder hours to earn more money for a trip up north[Pennsylvania] that he’s going on this July. It may be a “little while” before he gets back to answer your question in post#82. Last night he didn’t come in until 8:43p.m. and just sort of collapsed in the living room to sleep on the floor.He was covered in mud and grass clippings and stank worse than usual, so I picked him up by one of his legs and[amid much foul language and gesticulations on his part]dunked him six times within a pond behind his home.He was grateful for it later.I guess I got side-tracked….Anyway, it may take a little time, just so you know.

  115. Maz said

    F.L.A: I wondered why we hadn’t heard from him. Thanks for telling me. It seems to be getting quiet on here lately.

  116. Maz said

    Zerxil: No it was deffinitely the Inquisition, because I’d studied it (not deeply) but read a lot.

  117. Zerxil said

    *SHEEPISH GRIN* PROOF THAT YOU SHOULD GET YOUR INFO FROM 2 DIFFERENT SOURCES. ON THEIR WEB SITE THOUGH IT SOUNDED SCI-FI ON TRAVELING TO THEM.

  118. John said

    Thanks F. L. A..
    Let it be known that I do not stink[all the time, that is]!When one works outside in the heat and humidity digging, raking, weeding, planting stuff,etc. all day then you can’t always smell like a rose.It’s blue-collar working-man smell.SOMEBODY has to earn money to buy all these books, you know[smile].
    Anyway……
    As to your question concerning the Septenary Design Maz, there may be something to it, but I would have to study and cross examine the evidence quite a bit more than I have before giving you a full report of my personal thoughts on this matter.It’s interesting, but as it has little if anything to do with my western-European theology I probably won’t give it a very high priority either way.

  119. Maz said

    John: No matter what theology you hold to, the septenary design in the Hebrew scriptures is a reality that is universal. Just like the design you see in a snowflake. It’s there.

  120. John said

    What is the significance of mentioning the [individualistic] designs of a snowflake? And so what if it was what it it made out to be? How would this effect me in any way?

  121. Maz said

    John: The point I was making is that the Septenary design means the same everywhere, it is a sign of a Divine Author. It doesn’t make any difference whether it’s anything to do with your ”western-European theology”, it’s Gods Word, which is universal.
    The snowflake also reveals to me that there is a Designer Who designed it that way, the wonderful thing about snowflakes is that each one is individual….but that is beside the point…..wherever snow falls, the snowflakes are a sign of a Divine Creator, and so is the Septenary design.

  122. John said

    So if it means what you think it does, then your holy writings had a Divine Author. Good for you. And…..?
    You know, Pagans like me could also make the same point in regards to the design of snowflakes if we wanted to[smile].

  123. Maz said

    John: If the Bible has proof of a Divine Author, it proves the Bible is true, and what it says is true, therefore, it would be important to know the Author Who says He created the Heavens and earth….don’t you think?

  124. Zerxil said

    Maz did you mean, If there is proof of a Divine Author than the Bible is true, than it would be important to know the Author Who says He created the Heavens and earth.

  125. F. L. A. said

    Ah… but there are many versions of the Bible Maz, are there not?One should be careful taking such edited and revised, and re-revised works of man literally word for word. And there’s still the little problem of history desputing your claims of theological seniority.Assuming that there actually is something to the Septinary Design, of course.

  126. Maz said

    Zerxil: I’m not sure what you want me to clarify. The Bible is true. And there is proof of this. The Septenary Design is only one.

    F.L.A: I’m speaking of the original text i.e: The Hebrew Scriptures as far as
    the Septenary Design is concerned.

  127. Zerxil said

    How hard would it be to put Septenary Design into a book? IE. could the Jewish people have put it into the books?

  128. Maz said

    Zerxil: Absolutely not. You’d have to be a mathematical genious and then some!
    And don’t forget you would have to have all the writers over all the time the OT was written to be able to do it.

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