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Understanding the world of Wicca and more…

Posted by truthtalklive on March 26, 2008

Guest host Alex McFarland www.alexmcfarland.com President of Southern Evangelical Seminary www.ses.edu talks with former witch Marcia Montenegro www.christiananswersforthenewage.org

 Also today, Larry Lemarr on “black” theology, Barrack Obama’s pastor and what the fuss is all about. More info on black liberation theology at www.hwhouse.com/aninvestigation.htm

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221 Responses to “Understanding the world of Wicca and more…”

  1. John said

    Wow. To bad that I missed this show, as I’m SURE that it was an interesting one[grin].I was not called by the radio station for any info.I guess they spoke with one of the many other Wiccans or magick workers involved in the occult that they personally know, eh? Perhaps some of you can fill me in on what happened by asking me some questions or something.

  2. Piper said

    Hey John, I also missed the show. Would have been very intresting. But I do have a qestion for you. How do you as a Wiccan deal with people who have murdered and commited horrific crimes in this life? Are they punished in the next life. Is there some sort of justice system in place? Is there punishment for breaking the rules? And how do you determian what is right or wrong? I guess that is more then one question. Looking forward to your responce. Thanks.

  3. Leroy said

    This is just a correction on my name. My name is Leroy Lamar. I did the segment on Black Liberation theology.

  4. John said

    Hello again Piper, long time no speak to[smile].
    I will try my best to answer your questions, but please bear in mind that there are MANY types of Wiccans and “Wicca-like” people in the world, and we do not all agree on some things concerning theology, just as there are many types of Christians and “Christian-like” people in the world with conflicting theological views.I could just fill you in on the theological views of my own denomination of Wicca, but I wouldn’t want anyone to think that this was all there is to it, so the answers that you will get from me will be for the most part generalized in an attempt to give you a well rounded idea as to what Wiccans believe.

    Now….As far as I know, all Wiccans hold to the belief of Karma times three, that is, that we basically “reap what we sow” but three times over.This is called the Three Fold Law of Cause and Effect.So naturally a Wiccan will try to be a good person and reap the cosmic rewards, as you’ll just be making your existence more difficult for yourself three times over by being bad.The cosmic law seems to be that of like attracting like, if you get what I mean.We all get what we deserve, weather we think so or not.Sometimes the Gods will test a person in various ways, but things always seem to work out in the end, regardless of their divine meddling/fun and games.
    Most all Wiccans hold to some form of reincarnation, but this is not always in the same sense as say, what a Hindi believes in regards to reincarnation[ although there are many Wiccan denominations that hold this same view].For example, going into the spirit world[be it Heaven, Hell, or something else] is a form of reincarnation, as it is a continuation of the persons existence.As I said above, if one is bad, then one suffers for it,and if one continues to be bad, for long enough, then eventually this will start to “erode” away at the soul[ like a cavity in a tooth] until…….a point of no return is reached, and then you go to Hell after death.But if one does something that’s REALLY BAD, say, one rapes a child[it was the worst crime I could think of right now], then that person has just bypassed the “spiritual erosion” process and gets to go strait to Hell. And more likely than not someone[or a mob of someones]will help send them on their way. There’s a lot of privet justice out here where I live.A persons Hell, like Heaven, is a custom-made job based on the persons likes and dislikes, and the severity of their evil.Now, there is a point eventually[allegedly, anyway] when a persons tormentations are sapposed to end, and one can advance to a level of existence that one had before their arrival to their Hell, but I personally wouldn’t want to test the theory.Now I know that there are probably a lot of Christians that would jump in now say “Well Christianity is better because by the grace of Jesus/God a sinner can repent and be forgiven for his/her sins and still get into Heaven! Your gods[these people aren’t polite enough to use an upper case “G”] are not as loving as the TRUE GOD!etc.,etc.”
    To which someone like me would respond “Yeah that’s a bummer.Gee, I guess then that I’ll just have to KEEP BEING GOOD!!!!!”[grin].
    How do we determine what is right and wrong?
    Different denominations have different “guidelines” that are followed, in my denomination there are 28 commandments to keep[imagine if you as a Christian had so many!], but almost every Wiccan follows the Wiccan Rede as a moral guide.Are you familiar with it? The whole thing? If not then I shall share it with you, if you wish.We also believe that EVERYONE within the universe[multiverse?] that has a conscience more or less agrees with what is right or wrong.Certainly with the humans of Earth, for within almost every human society cruelty, deceit, rape, thievery, needless murder,…all of the “big stuff”, almost everybody agrees is wrong.And if you don’t have a conscience, well then your probably one of the bad guys[smile].
    It is getting late and I am tired.We can discuss this some more tomorrow if you wish.Hopefully you found this to be…helpful?

  5. Piper said

    Thanks John for the reply. There is a lot of info. and I will try and respond to it as I understand you. Please correct me if I am wrong because I don’t want to put words in your mouth. I get that you have to do more good works than bad in order to get to heaven. By the way I am a Christian so you will know were I am coming from. In our justice system for example if we break the law there is a penelty that has to be paid. Niether time nor good works dosn’t change the fact that a crime has been committed. If we were to tell a judge that ya I broke the law but I did all these good things, we are still guilty of the crime. The same can be applyed to God and his moral law. (the ten commanments). We are guilty in his sight. (IF) the Bible is true there is only one way to have the fine paid. You made mention that you have to try and be good. I have to ask and you can ansewer it in your oun heart,have you been good. If the answer was no that welcome to the human race. (IF) the Bible is true Rom.3:23 says that none of us are good. We are all guilty before God. If we got what we deserved we would all end up in hell for eternaty, BUT because Jesus Christ (second part of the Trinity) died on the cross(the only payment for our sins) he got what we deserved so that we might have eternal life in Heaven. John 14:6 Jesus said I am the Way,the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through me. Luke 13:3 says that unless you repent you will all like wise paresh. (IF) the Bible is true that is a scary thought. It is easy to see that we are coming at this from two different angles. Only one of us can right. Or we both are wrong. I am looking forward to your responce. Please forgive me if I miss read what you were saying. It is also late And the tooth picks in the eyelids are about to fall out. Have a good night.

  6. John said

    Hello again Piper.
    I never made claims about being good, but I do the best that I can as circomstances allow.As I said above, if one is bad then one pays for it three times over.That’s our little cosmic penalty for sins.But this is only within our theology, of course.Why must only one of us be right and the other wrong?Heretical as it sounds, I think that we can both be right.A worshiper is effected by their faith, by it’s laws and benefits. But this does not apply to others of different faiths unless they choose to accept/adopt the laws and benefits another faith.But then you would have to be somewhat polytheistic to accept anything within this statement, and I know that that is not your way.Also remember that we have no concept of Original Sin within our faith, so attonement and salvation are not needed.We don’t get into our Heaven doing good works, good works only insure that “good luck and cosmic gifts” are aboundant within your life.We get into Heaven by being good people, by having a good soul and heart.
    I don’t think of myself as being a very good person, so I’m not expecting to have a spectacular Heaven to go to if I were to die today. But it won’t be that bad either[smile]. I have to go right now.Later.

  7. Mike S said

    What if “your heaven” is not what you think it is? What if the God of the Bible is really who He says He is? What if Christ is really who He says He is? What if it is true that we are ALL desperately wicked and in need of Christ’s perfect obedience and subsequent punishment that He received for our sins? What happens to your worldview in this case. Do you ever think about that? Just asking… Have a great day!!

  8. Mike S said

    One more, what if it’s true that Christ is the way, the truth and the life with no other way of eternal life in “God’s Heaven”?

  9. Chris C. said


    How come those same questions don’t concern you regarding other religions? What if Islam is the one true religion; what if hinduism is the one true religion, etc? If you understand why you reject those religions you will understand why John rejects yours, and some of us 🙂 reject them all.

  10. John said

    Hello, I’m back for a moment.
    Anyway,…You know what I would say to that Mr.Sears.I would remind you that that is only according to your theology.Do you remember the F. L. A.’s analogy about the “president of China”? That analogy could also apply to your deity.I talked a little bit about this with character Kandace on the “Interview with a Wiccan” site. Go back there and give it a read. There are “things” and occurrences within my experience that have proven to me that Christianity[as we know it] cannot account for everything in regards to matters of the divine,the natural world[worlds?], weird stuff out of the universe[multiverse?].Don’t ask me to explain these “things” and occurrences to you, you’re probably better off not knowing, assuming that you even believed me.
    I maintain a respectful yet agnostic attitude in regards to those deities and their theologies that are not mine.And when the time comes for me to embark on that “last great adventure” I shall see what I shall see.And although I don’t believe it for an instant, if I discover that I was wrong then I will accept my fate and take it like a man.As I’ve said before, we all get what we deserve, eventually.I have to go again. Speak to you all later.You have a great day too.

  11. Mike S said

    I didn’t ask for all of that from either of you. All I asked was “what if” and wondered if you have ever really seriously considered the “if it were true” thoroughly. And yes I have considered that of many of the other religions and that is why I believe what I believe.

  12. Chris C. said

    “All I asked was “what if” and wondered if you have ever really seriously considered the “if it were true” thoroughly?”

    Fair enough. As a former Christian (say false convert if you want, although I firly believed in all of it) I have considered the viewpoint. In my time of spiritual uncertainty and searching I did investigate other viewpoints. I guess, if Christianity were true I’d be bound for hell. But I don’t lose sleep over it just because, according to plenty of other religions I’m bound for hell too…I see no good reason why any of them deserve more credence than the other.

  13. Piper said

    Hello John, In respoce to the post#6. I would agree that we are not good. But this will be no suprise to you when I diagree with you on the notion that we can determain for ourselves what we need to do to obtain heaven. If this where true would’nt Bin Ladin be right in his own mind that what he is doning is right. Please don’t think that I am comparing you to Bin Ladin. My point is that thinking would allow anyone to do as they believe is right in there own mind. I think that would be recipt for a real mess. Kind of like what is happening in the world now. Someone is wrong. There can not be two or more right ansewers. I beleive that the Bible is true and it says that all will answer to God on judgment day. This would include everyone on the planet that has ever existed since the begining of time. From Adam and Eve to the last baby ever born. Either what Jesus said is true and this will come to pass or he was the biggest hox of all time. And if what He said is true, and He is who He says He is, than He is the only way and all other ways are wrong. Really for everyone to have there own way all ways would have to be sepert from all other ways and no ones way could envolve any one else. I don’t think that this makes sence when the way of the Bible includes all mankind. I hope this makes sence. It is about 2 in the morning and I need to go to bed. Hope to here from you soon. Have a good night.

  14. F. L. A. said

    Hello Piper.
    This was why John would have coated his Kukrie with Swine blood befor he decapitated Osoma Bin Laden[huge toothy grin].

  15. Piper said

    Hey Chris C. In post#12 you made the comment about being a former Christian. I don’t think that it gives such a thing. I think you but it right when you said that it might be said that you would be a false convert. You then said that you only believed in it. I might have some good news for you. If you were told that to believe in God was all that was needed to be a Christian I can understand why you would be turned off and leave the Church. Satan and his demans (believe) in God and the Bible says that the demans tremble at the sound of the all mighty God. To believe is not enough but we need to repent and but our faith in Christ. If we have not done this then we have never been saved. Christ died on the cross for all our sins once and for all. The fine has been payed once and for all. Once we are (truely) saved I believe the Bible says that we are saved and can not lose what has already been payed. No other religion offers this. All religion’s are man centered and what we need to do to please God, but Chrisianty is a relationship that says what the one true God has already done for us. These are going in opposite directions. Christianity is not somthing that we can try for a season to see if it will work for us. To offten we here from pastors and telivagenlists that all we need to do is ask Jesus into our hearts and he will give us our every desire. This is false teaching and leads to a lot of false converts who want to become Christians so that they will have a better life in the here and now. When this dosn’t turn out like they thought it should they turn back to where they were and think that God can’t be real because what they were lead to believe. I don’t know if this is your experiance or not but if I could ask you to look at it as not as what you need to do but what God has already done and you might see it totaly different way and it might make more sence. We need to relalize that we are domed without the Blood of Christ imputed to our account so that God’s wrath would satisfied and we would be saved from what we deserve. Repentace( turn from your sins) and but your faith in Christ for your salvation. Hope this is helpfull Chris. Please let me know if this makes sence. Looking forward to your reply.

  16. John said

    Chris, in regards to post#9, please bear in mind that unlike many other religions, Wiccans[especially me]do not consider Wicca to be the one true religion but just one among many.I think that the universe is too big and mysterious,and that people are just too darn weird and complicated for any religion to be the one and only way for everyone everywhere. My denomination of my faith is simply MYYY way, nothing more[smile].

    Piper, in regards to your post#13,…although someone like O. Ben Laden might be doing what THEY think is right, I’m not so sure that his actions are COMPLETELY sanctioned by his theology anymore than the actions of Rev.Jim Jones or the Klu Klux Klan are sanctioned by the religion of Christianity. I sometimes wonder if men like him really are very religious at all.I think, like A.Hitler, they are dangerously insane “broken” people.It is easy for me to see people like this suffering divine punishment within their own theologies after death DESPITE whatever “noble intentions” they may have entertained in life.And there is that matter of my blade coated with swine blood, to MAKE SURE that he ends up in his theologies Hell[evil knowing smile].If one knows the rules of the theology of one’s enemies, then these rules can be used to one’s advantage within a combat situation.

  17. Chris C. said

    John, in your mind, what is the purpose of religion? I get that you don’t hold to he one, true religion idea…but what do you take the purpose of religious behavior to be in general? Moreover, if there isn’t really one ‘right’ religion, how important is religion in our lives?

  18. John said

    Hello again Chris C.
    Thank you for your response.I meant that I didn’t believe that there was any ONE right[“true” in the purely dualistic “my way is the only way” sense], religion for everyone, everywhere. I did not mean to imply that a devote/culture/etc. couldn’t have a religion that was perfect for THEM.I’m sorry if that is how I came off.It is too difficult to try and answer your last question as I can only truly speak for myself, if not my theology.My religion, my deities, are VERY important to me.Sometime I’ll tell you why.I have to go right now, but I’ll be back eventually.I want to meditate on your first question about the purpose of religion before I answer that, unless I’m making the question “deeper” than it needs to be[smile].If not, then it would be silly of me to just rush right in with an answer off the top of my head, yes? Later.

  19. Piper said

    Hey John, I was begining to think that you had forgot about me. I don’t ubderstand a lot about Bin Lauden or his theology or how close that he is following it. I have heard of Jim Jones but again don’t know a lot about him. There are a lot of false teachers out there that call themselves Christians. The Bible is clear that we (as true Christians) will be known by our fruit, or you could I guess to a point use the word actions as they line up with the Bible. If this Jim Jones was with the klu klax klan it is safe to say that what he was involed in and his actions would not line up with the example that Jesus lived. Love,Peace, Brotherly kindness, loveing your niehbor as your self no mater what the coulor of your skin or your nationality. John15:12-13This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one then this , than to lay ones life down for his friends. The Bible says that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Chances are we will never be asked to take the place of someone in death. But we are called to put others first before ourselves. I would guess that if not all then a majority of world religions are more about me and what about me and what this world can do for me. You get the point. Paul writes in Philipians 1:21 that to live is Christ and to die is gain. As a Christian that is such a greater promise then a thousand worlds can offer. To simply live for what this world has to offer falls far short of what Gods porpose for us is. The difference between religion and Christianity is one is man centered and one is Christ centered. I think that I went off on a bit of a trip there. I think that Jim Jones is very religious in what he believes and not what is true. One more thing before I leave, what we believe to be true does not make it true. What you or I precieve to be true does not change the fact that the truth I still believe is in the Bible alone, through Christ alone. Once again it has been a pleasure. You seem like a decent guy and who knows maybe someday we can meat face to face and talk about this as I don’t type real well. Looking forward to as always to your responce.

  20. F. L. A. said

    you sound tired, Piper. Your spelling is worse than usual.
    We could never forget about you Piper, for you are an interesting person.John IS decent, in his own barbarian fashion, monstrous in others[although he HAS gotten much better than he used to be.].Basically, “Rev.” Jim Jones was an American Christian religious fanatic wacko who started a dooms day cult.After getting into trouble with the law for various reasons he and all of his followers ran off to South America to start their own “society” in the jungle called “Jones Town”, that was run more like a third world prison camp where the members constantly had to take “suicide drills”.To sum it all up, when the crap hit the fan, they forced everyone to drink cyanide laced koolade.Those who refused where gunned down.This incident is were we get those wisecracks about “not drinking the koolade” from.Hundreds died that day.

  21. Chris C. said


    I definitely meant it to be a “deep” or probing question. So many people here see their religion as a necessary part of life, something that, in essence, makes life worth living. You don’t hear too many say, “my religion works for me, but I can see how other people might gain something else from anothr religion…”

    At least you don’t hear that around here.

  22. John said

    Or gain something from having no religion at all, eh?[sympathetic smile]
    Yes, only someone like me of the “immoral pagan minority” might say such a thing here, ha.ha.Or one such as yourself.Hopeless heretics,both of us.
    I’m almost done meditating on your question.

  23. F. L. A. said

    Without his theology, John would be a Sorcerer instead of a Witch.Are you familiar with the difference? It probably doesn’t matter.

  24. John said

    Hello again.I would have answered you a little sooner Chris C.,but I was helping my folks.Anyway,…..

    People have been religious for as long as people have been people, and as you know from the information in your post #16 on the Darwin site, that’s been a VERY,very, long time.People in the Old Stone Age ritually buried their dead and practiced hunting and fertility rituals, and the theology of Animism was widespread.My beliefs are very much based on Animism too, although maybe not in the same way.
    Most people seem to behave religiously because they want to express their gratitude to deities for various reasons, to gain help from deities for various reasons, or in the hopes of winning favor with deities for various reasons.For example, I live in a world with a fair amount of danger in it, so I conduct rituals of protection, and to appease those forces that will help make my life safer/luckier, and help improve my chances and skill at hunting, fishing, gardening, fighting, etc.It’s almost like a cosmic symbiotic relationship.And when things go my way, I express my gratitude with prayers and sacrifices[Despite what some fanatics like Bob Larson or those fools at Demon Busters.com think,this rarely ever involves a BLOOD sacrifice, you know.Shall I elaborate?].Of course this leads to other questions like, what is a deity, and how do they get any use out of a devotes beliefs and sacrifices? I have a difficult time nailing down what a deity is for other people in other faiths.As for myself, in general the old Pagan Deities are very much like people as we know them.They have all of our personality strengths and flaws, they get angry,sad,lonely,vengeful,drunk,horny,play pranks on us and each other,etc., although they are ultra powerful in almost every conceivable way. The philosopher Xenophanes of Colophon, writing in the 6th century B.C., perceived that the conception of a Deity was essentially conditioned by ethnic factors, as well as being basically anthropomorphic, and this makes much sense.The Thracians thought of their Gods as Thracians, with grey eyes and red hair, whereas Ethiopians naturally conceived theirs as having negroid features.If whales and dolphins could carve figures, they’d undoubtedly represent the Deities in their own animal forms.Regardless of this, there IS a great, ultra-powerful SOMETHING there, or in my case as a polytheist, a good many SOMETHINGS.My magickal powers are coming from somewhere, after all.Why have religious rituals,preform magickal acts/prayers, etc.etc.? BECAUSE IT WORKS! It may not work for everyone all the time in every way it’s intended, but it does work, at least it does for me within my life.Do you recall your test for judging a miracle? That in order to help confirm it the alternative explanation must be even more far fetched than the perceived miracle? If the power of prayer does not work, if the divine is not helping me in various little and sometimes big ways,if my acts of magick only SEEM to work by coincidence, if I[and other theologically minded devotes, of ANY theology]am just fooling myself and it’s ALL purely coincidental, then I am living within a
    universe FILLED with….an unbelievable amount of coincidences[smile].Oh, and I’d also be completely insane and suffering from vivid hallucinations[like, right now I’m actually a 16 year-old girl strapped into a bed in a L.A.California and I just THINK that I’m a 32 year-old male Cracker-Hick typing all of this in the swamps of southern Florida.Yeah right! Or…..what if……….????!! Neaaahh.].Me and my deities, we complement and define each other.As Ferox said, without them I would be a Sorcerer instead of a Witch, and in case you don’t know the difference then I can explain THAT sometime too, for the difference is important.I just don’t have time for it right now, and it’s a little off topic anyway.
    Of course religious belief can always become a negative thing and lead to bigotry and horrors of all kinds, as the famous Latin poet
    and philosopher Lucretious[1st century B.C.,he may even have been one of histories first great Atheists, Chris[smile]]epitomizes in his evaluation of religion: “Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum!” [Which for those of you who don’t know how to read this, it says “So great is the power of religion for evil!”], and it only takes a brief history lesson to confirm how theology can be used to control, harm, and repress the masses.
    However religious belief is used though, there is still that alluring, all powerful SOMETHING there to inspire us, be it for good or evil, and it can be felt, and sometimes witnessed by the theologically devoted.Have you ever heard of the term “Mysterium Tremendum”?
    If not, then if you wish it I will explain that to you, for it ties in very well with this discussion.I would just go ahead and tell everyone about the mysterium tremenddum, but it would take longer time than I have, and I now have to go for the evening.Ferox can’t do it for me because IT’s out goofing off in the jungle somewhere and probably wont be back for “awhile”.
    I hope that this helped answer your inquiry Chris C.
    If not, then let me know how I goofed it up and I’ll work on it, if I can.

  25. Chris C. said

    That was excellent actually. I wholly agree that religion probably came about hand-in-hand with the advent of ‘Homo’ species and modern consciousness. I take it you believe all (or most) of your deities were in place before this time? Of course I would say man just created deities to solve the riddles and questions he could not answer through his own thoughts and senses.

    But religion, as a practice, is ubiquitous to the human population. I think, overall, it is still important — not necessarily because it is true, but because it holds such cultural and historical significance. Here, allow me to indulge in a story:

    There is a tribe in Africa who holds a “Yam Festival” every year at a varied time (similar in scope to the way the date of Easter varies). The religious leaders tell people not to harvest or consume their yams until the very exact date comes. This date is chosen, supposedly by much deliberation and religious guidance, by the elders.

    The yams themselves have a special power: they contain a protein that actually helps to alleviate the symptoms and effects of Sickle Cell Anemia. So those people who eat the yams will, for a time, be rid of the complications of their Sickle Cell disease. However, SCA is actually a beneficial condition for preventing the spread of the malaria virus because the sickled blood cells will not allow the malaria to breed and spread. SCA is actually a mutation that, while harmful, has a net positive effect in areas affected by malaria, such as Africa and India.

    The interesting part is that, if the people of these villages were to eat yams year round, or during the height of the malarial season, then their ability to fend off the disease through sickle cell anemia would be compromised. However, if they wait until the mosquitoes are out of season, so to speak, then they can eat the yams and have the best of both worlds:
    -Protection from the complications of sickle cell anemia during part of year when yams are eaten and,
    -Protection from malaria because of sickle cell anemia which is allowed to ‘run free’ without the benefits of yam consumption during the rest of the year.

    While all of this is seen and understood clearly through modern biology and the evolution of population genetics, the people of these villages still perform these Yam Festivals as a totally religious tradition. They had no scientific knowledge of malaria and SCA etc., when these festivals began thousands of years ago. But through religion and culture they have been able to reap the same benefits we gain from our modern scientific knowledge. And while their gods are fictitious and their religions not technically “true”, their religious beliefs and practices still serve some purpose.

    Interestingly, Christians and Muslims who come to the area to ‘evangelize’ often require the statues of the African yam gods and fertility gods to be torn down and destroyed. There are those atheists and religious folk who wish that all religions (or all but theirs) be eradicated from the earth. This sort of cultural isolationism and religious-ethnocentrism is unnecessary and, as demonstrated, at times harmful. Religion has played an important part in our history. Hopefully real education will continue to outpace religion as a source of natural knowledge. But indeed, without some measure of cultural identity, some of which must come from our religious past, we might all be doomed to the fate of those African fertility gods: cast aside as unwanted – or worse – unnecessary.

  26. John said

    Well, I’m glad to have helped in any little way. Mission accomplished, I guess.I don’t know if my deities as I know them were there before the rise of humanity, but I definitely believe that there was SOMETHING here[we’re only talking about our galaxy, specifically on planet Earth here, just to make things clear], waiting around, meddling with things, and watching.Humanity helped to give IT/THEM shape/s and attributes that we could better relate to.Before us IT/THEY probably resembled something rather dinosaurian, after the last people to inhabit this world[grin].
    And I also think that it’s quite possible to “build up” a smaller SOMETHING and “create” a deity. F. L. A. discussed this process a little with Character “Mrs.Herman” on the “What does Mormonism really teach?” site, in regards to the “feeding” and strengthening of the entity Satan. Did you read those posts? You see, deities need us too, at least to some extent, for not only do we strengthen,refine and amuse them, but we also define them and give them purpose.We all compliment each other in various little ways.
    One of the surest ways to “kill off”[or at least force into celestial retirement] a deity is to forget about IT, or end IT’s worship.Because then IT would no longer have a reason to exist, unless there was some other roll IT could play within the cosmos.
    Of course this is just speculation from my pagan perspective, but I believe that the theory is sound.I expected to be SMITED for sharing such ideas with everyone here, but after surviving this I came to the conclusions that the deities let me slide on this because A:Nobody here will believe or take me very seriously on this matter, and B:There aren’t very many people like me left within the world that will remember, respect, and worship the Old Deities in the Old Ways, so as a rare commodity, I am too valuable[I hope!]to kill off[yet].We shall see, as usual.
    Your thoughts?

  27. F. L. A. said

    No thoughts.
    Shall it be assumed that everyone reading got what they were after?

  28. Chris C. said

    I wasn’t looking for a right or wrong answer. I was just interested in John’s take on things regarding religion. So yes, I got what I was after, thank you 🙂 (and thanks to John).

  29. John said

    You are welcome Chris C.!

  30. John said

    So Maz, exactly what is it that you want to know?
    And of course my deities seem unstable, at least by our standards. They can’t help it. THEY ARE DEITIES! How stable is the surface of our sun[smile]? One thing that you have to understand about the Old Gods and Goddesses is that they are very much like us, though more powerful and immortal[although there have been exceptions].
    See posts#24[upper middle section] and#26 above.

  31. Maz said

    John: Thankfully my Deity is not unstable. I can trust Him with my eternal destiny let alone my life here and now. He loves me….He can’t help it!

    Our sun is as stable as God keeps it. He sustains everything in this Universe by His power, He created it, He sustains it. When things go wrong that is because of sin and unbelief in the world.

    I’m glad God is not like us…atleast, he is not fickle and changeable. He never changes.

    When something ‘works’ it does not prove that it is good. The Devil does exist, evil spirits do exist, and they can do certain seemingly miracluous things, but God is the unltimate power in the Universe and the Devil is in no way equal to Him, he is simply a fallen angel. So when things happen that are supernatural you have to understand from what source they are coming.
    If it is not of God, then I believe it is of the Devil, there is no third option.

    To recognise that there is an entity called the Devil or Satan is in no way giving him credit for anything. We need to recognise that there is an evil side existing in this Universe and that we need to believe and trust in God to overcome his divices.

    What I would like to know John is, apart from the writings you have from your grandfather, which writings do Wiccan’s have comparable to the Bible? Who wrote them and when?

  32. F. L. A. said

    It must be a bummer for you to have to wait until after 6p.m. everyday to get a reply from him, eh?

  33. F. L. A. said

    Your deity did not seem very much differint in the Old Testament,Maz.

  34. Maz said

    F.L.A: Whatever God does now or then, He had a very good reason for it. Gods ways are perfect and righteous.
    His wrath comes upon sin, which I don’t think we realise how awful it is.
    Whenever He poured out His wrath, it was to maintain righteousness and truth in the earth. if He hadn’t come upon sin the way He did and does sometimes today, this world would be in a worst state than it is. And don’t forget that Jesus, Gods Only Son, took upon Himself the wrath of God for our sins….so that when we receive Him as Savior and accept that He died in our place and took our punishment for sin, then we do not have to suffer His wrath or suffer the punishment we deserve.

    When I get up you are still 5 hours behind me, so that means I have to wait until the afternoon before you all get up over there. Or in your case return from your nightly wander in the swamps. 😉

  35. F. L. A. said

    sounds like a bummer either way you look at it.
    The swamps are a lot wetter now, naturally.

  36. F. L. A. said

    How is your back healing up, Maz?

  37. Maz said

    F.L.A: My back is a lot better now. I’v been able to drive and get out, but it still stiffens up a bit when I sit down. I’v been giving it the hot water bottle treatment.

    Yes, it is a bit frustrating, I get up and blog, then I may have to wait all day before the debate continues, and by 6.00 when John gets in I’m already tucked up in bed asleep. I use to be up until nearly midnight some nights but lately I’v got tired and gone to bed earlier. The time difference can be a bit of a bummer as you say.

  38. F. L. A. said


  39. Maz said


  40. John said

    Maz, to the best of our knowledge there has never been anything like a “Bible” in the religion of Wicca. Wicca is a branch off of the theology of Druidism, as Christianity is a branch off of the theology of Judaism. Learn about them to help you learn about us if you like. The Druids didn’t as a rule ever write down information.Early Celtic society was either non-literate, or it was felt that it was too dangerous to commit information particularly esoteric information, valuable information, to paper, were anyone could theoretically read it, including the uninitiated or enemies. There are reports that St.Patrick claimed to have burned 180 books belonging to Irish Druids, and I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if he did, that dirty rotten no good[CENSORED][CENSORED]……..! We actually used to have the custom of wearing black on St.Patrick’s Day. Anyway…
    The Druids and Wiccans retained information through oral traditions[like the Native Americans] and the use of “Memory Palaces”, if you know what they are.If not then I shall explain.
    Between the Catholics and all those darn Romans always trying to commit genocide on all of us and destroying all of our information, burning our sacred groves[religious rites and worship were held outside within groves of sacred trees, usually Oak.], and raising our few temples and rebuilding Christian churches upon the sites[so much for the “Golden Rule”!], it was a wonder that any of us even survived through the Middle Ages!
    We all had to go “underground”, migrate to distant lands, or both.
    Wicca has undergone a huge revival over the last century, but almost none of the modern denominations are like mine anymore. In fact, some are almost my opposites.
    Yes, I know about your Satan and evil spirits, but you have to understand just how irrelevant Christianity is to Wicca and Witchcraft. We have our OWN demons and evil spirits to concern ourselves with. We already knew about the “evil” side of the universe. I have to go now, but shall return tomorrow to continue the discussion, if you like. Hope this helped you some. Goodnight.

  41. Maz said

    John: It sounds like you have a ‘religion’ that has no foundation…..and if any, it is very shaky. Those who followed God had to destroy that which was contrary to Gods Word, this happened in the OT aswell when Israel went away from God and built altars on every high hill and sacrificed to idols but not to God, when a godly king came to the throne he had to pull all those altars down and destroy that which was idolatrous or the nation would suffer for it.
    We (Christians) have the Bible, that has been preserved by God since the very beginning, even through the Dak Ages when Bibles were burnt and the Roman Catholic Church took control and burnt believers at the stake, still His Word survived. Through all the sufferings of Israel and the Church, right up till today, we still have the original writings of the prophets, the apostles and those who were moved by God to write down His Word for our instruction and guidance. You do not appear to have this, and oral tradition can be changed over time by accident or embellishment, word of mouth is not reliable.

    I understand how irrelevant Christianity is to you but your demons are the same as the ones spoken of in the Bible. There aren’t any others. For us, God is the Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent Creator and Sustainer of this Universe, and He is above all others. The devil is just a fallen angelic being, who wanted to usurp God off His throne (I can’t stop laughing!!!) and be God himself. He drew away a third of heavens angelic beings with him, and they are the demons which still exist today (as they are eternal beings). So there is no evil ‘opposite’ to God. He stands alone in the Universe as the Almighty One, the I AM that I AM.

    If you want to continue the discussion after what I’v said that’s OK.
    Now I have to wait for your reply until tomorrow morning when you get back. 8)

  42. Maz said

    That last line doesn’t sound right but you know what I mean….I think. 😉

  43. F. L. A. said

    Maz, you are still under the belief that your own theological belief system has remained completely unchanged from the very beginning of it’s creation, as well as your beloved Bible. If you were more objective and impartial in your studies, and perhaps a little more honest with yourself, you may discover that this is not so.
    You also always seem to fail to take into account that history and theology did not begin with Judaism and Christianity.
    You think that his ‘religion’ has no foundation? Why?
    Because it’s creators had no Bible? Would that have even mattered to you? If they HAD written a Bible of their own then no doubt John might now have 17 versions of IT along side his 17 versions of the Christian Bible.And yet, I cannot help but think that these many versions could be used by you or other skeptics to try and prove that this hypothetical Wiccan Bible was changed[As you said of the oral traditions.]”by accident or embellishment” and thus rendered unreliable as a historical and theological document of any kind. And yet it’s allowable for Christianity? SUCH a double standard, Heh! Heh!
    You do not even know very much about his theology, only the few snippits of information that he has shared with you.
    As for you demons and Devil, remember, this is only within the theological belief systems of the Middle East. As Celtic theology[among various other Pagan theologies] is older than Christian theology[In addition to being on the opposite side of the continent], it is difficult to imagine that your Middle Eastern evil entities and his are one in the same.
    It is a shame that you condoned book burning and the destruction of different cultures.

  44. Maz said

    F.L.A: The only thing that matters is that I am honest towards my God. I believe in Him with my whole heart, body and soul, He is the Alpha and Omega, He is the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. I have no reason to study Him objectively, no more than I should study my own family, my parents or my children to know who they are and what relationship I have with them. I don’t just have A belief in God, I don’t just believe the Bible is true, I don’t just go to Church, pray or do anything outside of that personal and intimate relationship with my Father God. I KNOW He is with me every day, He lives in me, He walks with me, He is everything to me. So for you to ask me to study to see if any of it is true is really as much a waste of time as I think it is trying to convince you that God loves you and wants you to know Him personally.

    I would like to know who wrote Johns Wiccan writings, and when……does it contain any history comparable to the Bible, how the earth and the Heavens began, how man ‘evolved’, things like that? What do these writings contain? Can they be proven by history or archaeology?
    Christian theology grew out of Judaism…..going back to Abraham, and He believed in the same God we do today. The Bible goes back to the first man…..where do the Wiccan writings go?

    I would condone any destruction of anything that ultimately came against the knowledge of God, and His position as Creator in the Universe. Idolatry is an abomination to Him. He commands our worship, He longs for our love, that is all He wants. Our love. He revealed the depth of His own love to the world when He sent His dear and Only Son to die. What more can He do to show you how much He loves you?

    And I shall know more about Johns theology as he answers my questions. That is the whole reason for me asking.

  45. ADB said


    I’m enjoying keeping track of this discussion of the world of Wicca. I really respect your willingness to learn about it and your great defense the Christian faith. I would like to mention one thing about your post #41 regarding oral tradition. You are exactly right to the extent that you refer to our culture. Modern western culture is very much a written culture, and writing is the ordinary way in which knowledge is passed down and transmitted. The ancient Hebrews had more of a verbal culture than we do. The Hebrews knew by memory prodigious amounts of scripture, far more than most of us do. Their scriptures were taught and handed down orally in many instances. I may be mistaken on this, but I think that one of the reasons for the writing of the gospels is that more and more Greeks and Gentiles were coming to the faith. This created a need for written gospels because by culture they relied more on the written word than Jews did, and to preserve and spread the knowledge and message of Jesus that material had to be written. Anyway I just wanted to clarify this.

    Best Wishes

  46. Maz said

    ADB: Thanks for your clarification. The difference with other oral traditions and Judaism and Christianity is that we have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God Himself, who brings all things to our rememberance. And it was the Holy Spirit that kept the writings of the Bible true and accurate, atleast in the original writings, and I believe the translations of the OT and NT are as near as can be written. Do you agree?

  47. ADB said

    I’d certainly agree that in in scripture we have the word of God, inspired by the Spirit. The translations we have now can be trusted I think because there are so many different mss of the Bible and the number of textual variants is miniscule compared to other ancient literature. It’s not a matter of dogma, but I sure feel like that such good attestation of the Bible in manuscripts also shows that God had a hand in it. I don’t think that we can say that all the interpretation teams are inspired by God. With so many translations coming out in the last 30 years I can’t help but wonder whether some of these are done more out of a search for the “almighty dollar” (or “almighty pound” in your case) than out a real need for a new version.

    Best Wishes

  48. ADB said

    I should have clarified what I said in #47. I meant that the good attestation of the Bible in manuscripts shows that God had a hand in preserving those manuscripts.

  49. Maz said

    ADB: Yes, I would agree with you about the translations. I always wonder why we need so many when the Jewish people never need to update and change their scriptures like we seem to do. OK the KJV, which I use, was written in Olde English but I can read it and the Holy Spirit speaks to me through it, I don’t need a modern version to help me understand the thee’s and thou’s and ‘th at the end of a word. If I do want clarification I can look at another reliable translation or my amplified and get another slant on the verse. I did that tonight with a couple of verses in Exodus. I used a study Bible to get a fuller meaning of what was really happening.

  50. John said

    Hello again Maz[and everyone else reading]. Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner, there was bad weather last night. Today too.Hope the weather doesn’t mess this up.There are frogs and snakes EVERYWHERE[I mean, waaay more than usual]!!!

    It seems ironic that someone who would condone the destruction of non-Christian Artifacts, literature, culture, and temples would now,NOW, ask for historical, archaeological evidence[Do you have anything like the Bible? Tell me about your commandments, their origins. The evidence seems a little sketchy and shaky…WELL NO WONDER!].
    “I would condone the destruction of anything that ultimately came against the knowledge of God, and His position as Creator in the Universe.”-Maz “Those who followed God had to destroy that which was contrary to God’s word…”-Maz
    I would have preferred it better had you said something along the lines of..”Those were different people of different times John. That was a very long time ago, and we are wiser, and more diplomatic and understanding now..”
    But noOOOOOOOOOooo.

    What kind of archaeological evidence would you like? I assume that it must be under six thousand years old for it to be considered worthy of serious consideration[knowing smile]. These 28 commandments of mine where[to the best of my knowledge]with my ancestors when they came to America way back in the 17oo’s , there’s no telling how long they have been around or who was [divinely?]inspired to create them. Everyone who knew this knowledge is now long dead. As mentioned by Ferox there are now only four of us within this denomination. No doubt if we were of a huge, more popular denomination of Wicca like Gardnerian Wicca, there would be more information to be presented, as it is though, we are almost extinct[at least down here in Florida. There is a branch of our denomination up in the Appalachians, labeled “Appalachian Folk Magick” or “Granny Magick”.We are unaware of their numbers.]. Imagine the feeling, if you can if you were one of four Baptist remaining in Florida. In the south. In America? Anywhere?
    To the best of my knowledge, Celtic creator myths are rare. Instead, the earliest mythologies that involve origins involves numerous “invasion and battle” stories, where successive waves of various deities and magical beings arrive, battle, and kill off or drive away the former inhabitants of the land. Mankind is not described as being created by any of these beings, only as being the last of the invaders and settlers of the land.Much of the information now existing was unfortunately recorded by those who did not hold the Pagan Celts in good regards, like Catholic Monk scribes and Roman historians. Modern scholars divide the sagas of the early Celts into four main groups or cycles, 1.The Mythological Cycle, 2.The Ulster Cycle,3.The Historical Cycles, and 4.The Fenian Cycle.
    I have to go now, but shall return later[or tomorrow[?]] and supply you with some examples of historical artifacts if you like.

  51. F. L. A. said

    John just went home and went to bed.Every night is a work night for him. So,…tomorrow Maz. And good for you for trying to learn a little something about him. What is preserved on this website about him[And me, come to think of it.] is all that may ever remain and exist in regards to this sort of topic.

  52. Maz said

    John: I’m not asking for proof of your religion, just what writings there are….or what writings there were for that matter… which are comparable to the Bible. To me, the Bible is not just a book, a historical record or a doctrinal statement or anything like that, it’s a collection of books that are the LIVING WORD OF GOD. By that I mean, it has a power within it’s pages that no other book contains. It is GODS WORD to us. Every time I read it I still find something new in it I didn’t SEE before (spiritually speaking). As the scriptures say in 2 Tim: 3 v 16, ”All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to all good works.” In other words God has given us a word for every situation and circumstance in our lives and how to live it righteously.
    How does the Wiccan writings compare to that?

    ”I would have preferred it better had you said something along the lines of..”Those were different people of different times John. That was a very long time ago, and we are wiser, and more diplomatic and understanding now..”
    But noOOOOOOOOOooo.”

    The excuse or explanation (whatever) that things are different now, that we live in a ‘modern’ world, that times have changed is lame to say to least. Gods does not change, His Word does not change, and what He wants in this Universe does not change, time does not change Gods will….His purposes and His plans have been the same since time itself began.

    Are we wiser? I wonder. God tells us that the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God.
    Being wise, men became fools. True wisdom can only come from God.

    ”These 28 commandments of mine where[to the best of my knowledge]with my ancestors when they came to America way back in the 17oo’s , there’s no telling how long they have been around or who was [divinely?]inspired to create them. Everyone who knew this knowledge is now long dead.”

    So you really don’t know the origin of the writings you place your very eternal destiny in?
    That is shaky ground…..like sand?

    I am really surprised that there are only 4 of you in your denomination, though you mention there may be others somewhere else but you are not sure. Why is this? How can 4 people (possibly) out of all the earth in Wicca be so right about their set of beliefs? And if your beliefs are true, how can they die out? Why would your ‘gods’ allow such a thing?
    Our God, Yahweh, is ”from everlasting to everlasting”. He has always been in existence and always will be. He is the Great I AM. I’d rather put my faith in Him, Who is Rock solid, Faithful and True.

    I am finding this very interesting, but for someone to put their faith in such myths and stories, and writings who’s origins are questionable at the least, is to me a little foolish, when there is a God in Heaven that reaches down His loving nail-pierced Hand to you and asks only that you believe in Him and love Him, because He first loved you, and knew you even before you were born. Who’s Word has been proven to be trustworthy and true (though some would disagree with this, I know).

  53. Maz said

    F.L.A: I want to understand where he is coming from (and you too) so I can best share Gods love with Him (and you).
    I studied the Jehovahs Witnesses for a solid six months, their doctrines and beliefs etc. so that I could reach them with the gospel of Jesus Christ. To know where they are coming from helps to speak to them, and they respect that, and are sometimes surprised about that, but they are a people that God has laid on my heart to win for Him, and you and John are no different. If because of the knowledge I receive can help me say something that will open your eyes to the Truth that is in Jesus Christ then it is worth all the effort in this debate. I know….. you don’t think I have a chance in Hell….well, on the earth anyway….of doing that….but ANYTHING is possible with God!

  54. F. L. A. said

    Methinks that you want to understand him as perhaps you once tried to understand the evidence of evolution that was presented upon various sites.
    When John presented his hypothetical “Maz comment” on people changing he was talking about the kind of theological bigotry that led to the destruction of the very evidence that you now request that would support his faith. Why do you think that the evidence presented appears so “shaky”? People with a similar mindset to yours destroyed almost all of it, along with those who preserved it.
    You also don’t seem to understand why your theological belief system has no appeal for him. Or me.

  55. Maz said

    F.L.A: It isn’t my theological belief system that I’m trying to get you to believe in, it is the love of Jesus Christ.

    I don’t want proof from John, I don’t want evidence, I just want to know what Wicca writings there are in comparison to the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures.
    Who wrote them and when? If they have been destroyed then I guess that their gods weren’t as good at preserving them as God was at preserving the Scriptures these thousands of years, even with persicution.

    What you call ‘theological bigotry’ is just my belief that Jesus Christ is the Only Way to the true God of the Universe. This is the main teaching of the NT scriptures and which is contained within the prophetic Scriptures of the OT.

    If I don’t seem to undersand why my belief in God has no appeal for you and John is probably because I havn’t had enough information to come to that understanding.

    Tell me what does Wicca offer John that God cannot provide?

  56. F. L. A. said

    Maz, it’s not that your deity cannot provide, I believe, as so much as your deity not providing anything that he cannot already receive from his own deities. Anything else[Like spiritual salvation, for example] is unnecessary.
    And then there is also that wonderful lack of guilt and belief of one being a damned and flawed creation, your best being as dirty rags, etc.etc., that comes along with the whole concept of Original Sin.
    No doubt he shall have more to add later, but you’ll have to wait for that.

  57. Maz said

    F.L.A: You appear not to understand my belief about God even after all that I’v said, especially when you say things like ”I believe, as so much as your deity not providing anything that he cannot already receive from his own deities.” He has no deities above Him or with Him. He is the Ultimate Deity, the One and Only Deity…the Only One True God. There is no other God beside Him, and that’s what the Bible tells us so many times especially in Isaiah.
    You don’t think spiritual salvation is necessary because you don’t believe we are lost. From Gods point of view salvation is very necessarry for us.
    No one really understands the awfulness and the filthiness of sin until they meet with the Awesome and Holy God.

    Have you ever been in contact with any true born-again Christians? Have you ever stepped inside a Church or been in a Christian meeting of any kind? I would like to know what if any experience you have had with Christians and Christianity.

  58. F. L. A. said

    Greetings, Maz.

    Oh, I understand YOU Maz.
    I refuse to believe that your deity is the ONLY deity within the entire known universe, and if this were so, then history, theological or otherwise, would have begun with Judaism or Christianity. It has not. TRUE history has confirmed that there were other theological belief systems in existence[And powerful cultures to support them] before the worship of your deity, just as true history and life as you know it on Earth began long before 6,000 years ago.
    You can claim “History began as the Bible says, because it teaches that God created the first man, this planet, EVERYTHING!!!” but this claim does not take into account the fact that the mythology behind this divinely inspired[?]story is still younger than other theological mythologies and belief systems from around your world. How could you explain this as a Young Earth Christian Creationist, aside from ignoring the evidence and claiming that everyone ELSE is wrong?
    Both Hinduism and the religion of the ancient Egyptians are some of the oldest theological belief systems known to mankind. Was your God one of their deities and then decided to himself…”Hey, I’m tired of being Ra and putting up with Osiris’s nonsense all the time! I think I will go north into the Middle East and start fresh with the creation of Judaism. I can call myself…Jehovah…and THIS time I’ll make sure that NOBODY shares any of my credit for creation, or ANYTHING! One day I will think up a bunch of commandments to keep my new worshipers in line…..”.

    As for the rest of your statements concerning your beliefs, as John is so fond of saying…”Yes, but remember, that’s only in YOUR religion[smile].”
    Have I ever been in contact with any true born-again Christians?
    There was this one time when I met one that you might think qualified.He was invited under special cercomstances and we all had dinner together.
    He went insane, and now John has to keep a watchful eye out for him whenever he goes to Barnes and Nobles bookstore.
    I have not entered a church[It would cause panic and bring me unwanted attention.] but I have climbed over a few and wandered through the grounds. No meetings, unless you count what goes on here.
    Some of John’s family members[Like his mother.] are Christians, although not by your standards. We are as family, which is very big of them I think.
    I also have a Christian friend that we converse with via computer on a regular basis, but I do not know if you would think of him as a true born-again Christian. And then there is Amanda the Mormon, with whom we have a similar relationship with, but I know that she does not count to you.

  59. Maz said

    F.L.A: ”I refuse to believe that your deity is the ONLY deity within the entire known universe, and if this were so, then history, theological or otherwise, would have begun with Judaism or Christianity.”
    It is your right to refuse to believe in God as the Only God of the Universe but you are right to say that this would mean that history, theological or otherwise would have begun with Judaism and Christianity. Actually, it began with Adam having a relationship with his Creator in the garden of Eden, Enoch was another man who it is said of him that ”he walked with God”, then there is Noah, and later God called Abram and made of him a chosen people and a special nation, the nation of Israel through Jacob and his twelve sons, which became the twelve tribes.
    Christianity entered the scene when Christ, the Jewish Messiah was rejected crucified and died and then rose again.

    There were other belief systems in place very early on, including the Tower of Babel, but they were false religions worshipping false gods such as Baal and others. This did in no way change the fact that Yahweh was the true God of the Universe from the very beginning. And ofcourse today, just as Jesus prophesied there would be false Christs and false prophets that would come in the last days. There a multitude of religions and cults that you could choose to believe in and join today, but they cannot all be right. There has to be one absolute truth, and the Bible clearly teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Jews and then the God of the Christian Church is the One True and Living God.

    Your experience with other Christians, especially the one that went insane, probably wasn’t very helpful for you, and I wonder why he went insane. Was it something you said or did? Was he overly religious? Maybe he had a psychiatric problem to start with?

    And can John tell me what his mother thinks (as a Christian) about his belief in Wicca.

  60. F.L.A. said


    I would say that he had somewhat of a psychiatric problem. He was a Young Earth Ch-[Huge sharp-toothed grin]

    John is eating dinner, and shall be with you shortly.

  61. John said

    Hello again Maz. have you enjoyed playing with Ferox today?

    “I don’t want proof from John, I don’t want evidence,[really? Hmmm. Well, that makes things easier.]I just want to know what Wicca writings there are in comparison to the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures.”-Maz
    In comparison how? Antiquity? Being divinely inspired? Morals and ethics? Did you forget what I posted within the top half of my post#40? Try re-reading it again. You didn’t seem to understand it the first time.
    “If they have been destroyed then I guess their gods weren’t as good at preserving them as God was at preserving the Scriptures these thousands of years.” -Maz
    That’s like a white supremacists telling a black man “If your ancestors where too stupid to run and hide and got caught for slaves, then I guess they deserved what they got.”
    “How can 4 people[possibly]out of all the world in Wicca be so right about their set of beliefs? And if your beliefs are true,how could they die out? Why would your ‘gods’ allow such a thing?”-Maz
    What do you mean, “be so right about their set of beliefs”?
    This sounds odd to be coming from one who belongs to a faith FULL of denominations who are always arguing about which one of them is “right”. We are not like you, always thinking that everyone should be as we are.We are better than this, more diplomatic and understanding. Our ways are our ways, and for us there is no silly contest to try and prove that we are “right” and everyone else with a different deity is “wrong” and should be like us.

    Commandment #26:Understand and remember that your way is not the only way.
    Our denomination was not created due to some disagreement with how other Wiccans were worshiping, it was because we where all of the same TRIBE. When I say “denomination” I’m talking about more than a belief system, UNDERSTAND?
    The beliefs are not dieing out, only OUR traditions, our ways. The holidays, the belief in the deities[what’s this ‘gods’ crap[frown, one raised eyebrow]? Now that’s just disrespectful. Stop trying to shove you own demons and Satan onto us[clawed finger tip pointing at your nose].], the spellwork, is all going strong. If the Christian religious fanatics are to be believed, Wicca in all it’s various forms, is one of the fastest growing theological belief systems in this modern age.I have my doubts about this, but there’s definently been a Pagan “renaissance” within the last 100 years, and Wicca is still going strong.
    My deities don’t really have anything to worry about, I think[smile]. You could maybe compare us to the Waldensians[know who they are?]. If they all died out, would that be the end of Christianity? It’s foundation and beliefs? No. Would your God allow such a thing to happen?
    It happens throughout history, Maz. If you think that It could never happen to your denomination, or even all of Christianity, then you may just be kidding yourself. The ultra-powerful ancient Mayan empire thought that it would last forever too, and now they are but a footnote in most high school history classes. The average man on the street can’t even tell you what continent they lived in. In a million years, we shall see……

    I see from reading post#59 that you chose the “deny/ignore claim others are wrong” technique.
    Thanks to the F. L. A.’s posts I don’t have to type as much for you now, which is great, because I’m tired.

    My mom said, “I prayed for him to be healthy, hardworking, honest, and be a good person, and he grew to be all of these, so I’m happy.”

    In addition to having Witches and Ferox in her family she also believes in evolution, that animals have souls and feelings, the possibility of alien and non-human intelligent life, and an ancient earth. You would not consider her to be a “true”Christian.
    And now I have to go.So until the next time, Goodnight.

  62. Maz said

    John: Ferox is quite amusing sometimes. And I’m sure she wasn’t insinuating that because the poor guy who went insane was a Youth Earther he had Psychiatric problems….mmmm?

    The illustration about slaves was in no way in comparison to what I was saying. I was speaking of GOD preserving the scriptures, a long way from man trying to save himself from something like slavery. Yet it is a good illustration of why man, who is inslaved to sin, needs God to
    be set free!

    Why won’t you tell me about your writings? I just want to know what they are…poetry, prophecy, instruction, incantations, spells? And who wrote them? That is it. I want to be able to compare your Wicca writings with the Scriptures. And if it’s oral tradition what does that entail?

    ”This sounds odd to be coming from one who belongs to a faith FULL of denominations who are always arguing about which one of them is “right”. We are not like you, always thinking that everyone should be as we are.We are better than this, more diplomatic and understanding. Our ways are our ways, and for us there is no silly contest to try and prove that we are “right” and everyone else with a different deity is “wrong” and should be like us.

    I’m not in any kind of contest trying to prove we are right. If anything I try to share my beliefs with those of differing views within the Church. I try not to argue, which is why we often agree to disagree even on here. Let brotherly love continue.

    Ofcourse you are right, we aren’t like you. I love all my brothers and sisters whatever denomiation they are in, we may differ, and sometimes quite strongly, but I have had fellowship with many in other denominations and I don’t go round trying to prove they are wrong all the time. Some may, but I don’t.
    And to say that your ways are your ways, well, that is the problem. Just as Israel who had no king at one time and ”every man did that which was right in his own eyes.” But they didn’t do hat was right in Gods eyes. To go our own way is not to go Gods way. That is sin.

    ”Commandment #26:Understand and remember that your way is not the only way.” But for Christians, Gods way IS the Only way. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and he Life…the Only Way to come to God. And most if not all Christian denominations agree with that. If thy don’t, then they are not Christian but a false cult.

    IN Christianity a denomination is a difference of theological belief but with the same basic gospel message….Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior of the world.

    What ‘tribe’ are you? How were these tribes instituted?

    ”The holidays, the belief in the deities[what’s this ‘gods’ crap[frown, one raised eyebrow]? Now that’s just disrespectful. Stop trying to shove you own demons and Satan onto us[clawed finger tip pointing at your nose].], the spellwork, is all going strong. If the Christian religious fanatics are to be believed, Wicca in all it’s various forms, is one of the fastest growing theological belief systems in this modern age.I have my doubts about this, but there’s definently been a Pagan “renaissance” within the last 100 years, and Wicca is still going strong.

    Am I ‘shoving’ ‘my’ (they aren’t mine!) demons and Satan onto you? All I have said to you is what the Bible teaches, point your clawed finger tip at God if you dare John, but this sounds a little irate from my side? Am I touching some nerves? I can only tell you what the Bible says.
    It is NOT my opinion, it is Gods Word.
    And Wicca’s growth does nt prove it is right.

    ”I see from reading post#59 that you chose the “deny/ignore claim others are wrong” technique.” Care to clarify?

    As a Christian mother, I pray earnestly that my sons are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth….that Jesus is their Savior and that they live for Him and will spend eternity in Heaven with me and with their Lord. My eldest son is a believer, but my youngest lives his life his own way, but I’d be horrified if he got involved with anything to do with the occult.

    With your feelings running high about what I said last time, do you want to continue this discussion? We seem to be approaching the proverbial brick wall. I’m not ducking out, but I don’t want to continue if we getinto a situation where emotions begin to run high.

  63. F. L. A. said

    Uh, yes Maz, that is what I was insinuating, self-induced or otherwise.
    Perhaps your problem Maz is that you appear more interested in proselytizing than in actually learning[not that he would tell you everything anyway].What do you know about Wicca in general? They have eight major holidays, can you name four of them?
    Do you know the names of any of their deities?
    Do you know about any of their rituals or beliefs?
    These are things that would be helpful for you to know if your going to try and proselytize him.

  64. F. L. A. said

    A thunderstorm is brewing. You will not hear from John tonight.

  65. Maz said

    F.L.A: I have always been open about my motives for being on here and for what I say. My faith in God is Rock solid….I know in Whom I believe….so I want others to know Him too.
    I’v already said that it is easier to talk to people of another faith or belief if you know something about them and what they believe. My motives are quite sincere….I want you and John to know the love of God that passes all understanding and I would not want to see anyone go to Hell because I havn’t told them. I know you don’t agree with me, you don’t even like what I say, but it is the Truth, I can speak nothing else.

    Proselytizing is not the word I would use…..rescuing, winning and reaching lost souls for Christ is what I do because the love of God dwells in me and His love compels me to tell you the Truth.
    Like Paul would cry…Woe is me if I preach not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    You see it all comes from my heart not my head.

    So with this in mind, do you or John want to continue this discussion? Come to think of it…..as you question me about whether I really want to know all about your (Johns) beliefs etc., are you interested in mine for the same reason?

  66. John said

    Cooking dinner for the folks.
    Be back to you a.s.a.p.[weather permitting].

  67. John said

    Do you mean, are we/I interested in yours for the reason of..uh,..proselytizing?

  68. Stanley said

    I went to a pagan meeting at my college last year. Although I think they were completely wrong, they all seemed like seriously nice people. Most of them were hearth witches, that practiced medical herbalism and ritual. It was really interesting, if completely bizarre. Most pagans aren’t Wicca, although its the “gateway drug” of paganism. They start off delving into Wicca and then discover different types of paganism.

    I really wish I had gotten to hear this show.

  69. Maz said

    John: I don’t believe for one minute you are trying to proselytize me, it was a rhetorical question.

  70. Hey Stanley – Go to http://www.wtru.com and scroll down until you see the podcast component. Browse through there and you will be able to listen to the shows. “Has Christianity become pagan” is loaded, but I am checking on “Understanding the World of Wicca” to see why it isn’t loaded in our podcast section there.


  71. Stanley said

    Thanks Moderator!

  72. Maz said

    John: I was browsing through a couple of your earlier posts and found this bit about paying the penalty for sin, I obviously missed a good opportunity to say something, but this is what you said, ”……if one is bad then one pays for it three times over.That’s our little cosmic penalty for sins.But this is only within our theology, of course.”

    The wonderful thing about Christianity and having Christ as our Savior is that we don’t have to pay the penalty for our sins because Christ paid the penalty for us on the cross. Ofcourse we have to repent and turn from our sins, but once repented of, then we are forgiven….no penalty, once or three times over. Don’t you think that is wonderful? And He did it because He loved us and didn’t want to suffer the penalty ourselves.

  73. John said

    O.K., I’m back.
    Many of the questions that you ask within post#62 I won’t bother to answer because I know that you wouldn’t take any of them seriously due to your strange and annoying habit of ignoring real historical events and facts. The top half of Ferox’s post#58 and your response to it is a good example. How convenient for your faith.
    As for your ha Satan, go back to the site “What does Mormonism Really Teach?” and read the top half of my post#440 and post#460 by Ferox.
    If your motivation is to proselytize then you’re wasting the time of all of us. You speak of your God’s love and forgiveness[given under questionable circumstances for a curse the he inflicted under questionable circumstances to begin with] as if these things should matter to me. If someone doesn’t like having to abide by our Three-Fold Law of cause and effect, then they can always follow another theological path.The children of Wiccans are free to become Christians if they choose to. As for myself, I am a traditionalist and am contented.
    I gave you a helpful website myself to aid you in proselytizing to us Pagans, but strangely you refused to ever read it. Why? Is it because it was created by a Pagan, and thus in your thinking, flawed and unhelpful information, “tainted” by association?

    Stanley, I was wondering if you could tell all of us what was wrong and bizarre about those pagans that you encountered at that meeting. I am interested.

  74. Stanley said

    Not that there was anything wrong with them. They seemed really nice, and I felt welcome amongst total strangers. It was just odd that they actually practiced rituals and “magic” of sorts. They believed in the powers of signs and runes. I’m pretty close to a Bright, so I just thought it was odd. Although, I can understand using herbs for healing.

  75. Maz said

    John: ”You speak of your God’s love and forgiveness[given under questionable circumstances for a curse the he inflicted under questionable circumstances to begin with] as if these things should matter to me.”

    You don’t want to bother answering my questions because of my ”strange and annoying habit” of ignoring the historical facts, yet you do not see that you are doing exactly the same. Ofcourse you don’t see the things written in the Bible, especially Genesis, as historical fact.
    But, as I say to you and I have said to Ferox, that is your right. Is that wrong?

    I think we have come to the crossroads, you are determined to continue your way, and I will continue to go mine. No hard feelings, we just can’t agree about this John.

  76. F. L. A. said

    Sanley, as for being like a Bright, do you mean the movement started by Paul Geisert and Mynga Futrell? John can write in Futhark Runes but has never tried to bother using them as a means of divination.
    Maz, it is not the same. The difference between you and us is that our version of history is completely supported by facts, is accepted by the educated the world over, and requires no theological faith or mythology to support it.
    No hard feelings.
    It WOULD seem that you have both reached a stagnate plateau.

  77. F. L. A. said

    I apologize for the misspelling of you name, Stanley.

  78. Maz said

    F.L.A: I believe the history in the Bibe is fact and it has on the most part been supported by archaeology. But anyway, we are going to disagree about this until the proverbial cows come home. And isn’t it a stalemate?

  79. F. L. A. said

    I guess it has to be.
    Lost by default, perhaps. It is John’s choice.

  80. John said

    I get a lot of use out of plants myself Stanley, and go collecting for them in the woods often. A Bright eh? That’s interesting. Perhaps you’ll tell us more about yourself sometime.

    Yes, if this is as far as we’re going to get with this topic then I guess it’s over Maz, unless someone else has something else to add to the conversation.
    Que sera sera.

  81. Maz said

    John: I’v learnt a little more about you along the way so it’s not been a total waste of time.

    There’s ”…a time to keep silence, and a time to speak”. Ecc: 3 v 7.

  82. Stanley said

    Brights aren’t particularly interesting. We’re just saying the world doesn’t seem to include supernatural forces (Gods, Pagan “magic”, miracles, etc.) I don’t believe religious persons are evil like some more radical atheist groups. Also, if scientific, empirical evidence was found of the existence of God, Allah, Shiva, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc., arose I would not feel bad about changing my views. Although I’d probably consider God as a force in nature rather than a supernatural being. Its all based on solid science, and isn’t dogmatic, so it leaves room for correction if proven incorrect.

  83. F. L. A. said

    A world without “magic” and miracles? Why, no wonder there is a lack of interest.
    Someone once said that the difference between science and magick was that science is completely explainable, while magick is more mysterious.
    Stanley, why is it that you hold to the view that this world doesn’t seem to include supernatural forces or phenomena?
    It it a lack of what you would judge as satisfying evidence?

  84. Maz said

    How would you prove that the sky was blue to a blind man?

  85. Stanley said

    Evidence would be a big part of it. For supernatural things to be testable or observable would be nice. Ability to change due to new evidence. Everything that exists can be explained, although we don’t know all the answers yet. I also know that there are a plethora of things that we as humans don’t know, because we have not yet been able to experience or observe it yet. God may exists, and we haven’t encountered him yet, but I think that the diaries of ancient nomads hardly qualifies as verifiable evidence to the existence of God. Also, we can make assumptions about things we don’t know of because we’ve seen examples of similar things. Take life on other planets for instance. We’ve not come across any evidence of life on other planets, but most probably there is. There is life on Earth, why would we not think that there is life on other planets when space is so vast, and we understand how a planet could come sustainable for life.

    Does anyone here believe in the high probability of other lifeforms on other planets?

    Maz, unrelated again.

  86. F. L. A. said

    Yes, Stanley, there are a few of us here who believe in that probability. And weirder things too, like parallel worlds and universes.

    Maz, John once tried to do this with a blind man using feelings and emotions. For example, red was described as the feeling of passion/anger and as the feeling of a freshly baked potato that John gave the man to try and hold onto, and the smell of a b.b.q.. The color blue was putting the hands in a sink of ice cubes and cold water, the feel of a cool breeze as they were standing on a hill, the smell of a freezer’s air when you put your face in the door, and sadness. White was the feel of cotton balls,etc.etc.

  87. Maz said

    Stanley: I was trying to show you what it is like to try and prove that God exists to someone who is blind (spiritually).
    The thing is, trying to prove that God exists is like trying to prove that the sky is blue to a blind man. All he can do is ask someone else that he trusts in whether it is or not. But he has to trust that the person is telling the truth. Mmmm?

  88. F. L. A. said

    Sorry Maz, I misinterpreted you question.
    That would be tricky, as the sky only appears “blue” to human eyes due to the limited color spectrum that human eyes can see in, thus making it somewhat open to interpretation. Different lifeforms with vision see in different color spectrums, you know.

  89. Maz said

    F.L.A: But he will never know what the colour LOOKS like.

  90. F. L. A. said

    But these things are made up of more that just physical senses, are they not? Cannot the presence and effects of the DIVINE also be FELT within the heart, and noticed by their effects on others[huge sharp-toothed grin]?

  91. F. L. A. said

    Hypothetical “blind man” would still have ears, passion, and hopefully, imagination. You would have to make the best of using what was available to help you convey the information.

  92. Maz said

    F.L.A: #90. Yes, exactly.

    #91. But the blind man still needs eyes to SEE a blue sky. His ears won’t help him, or his passion, or his imagination. And any info you give him will still fall short of the reality of a blue sky.

  93. Stanley said

    We know about things we can’t see. Like radio waves, dark matter, gravity. We don’t need to see something in order to know it exists or to prove its existence.

  94. Maz said

    Stanley: That’s true. But my point is, how can I prove something to you that I can see but you can’t? And also, we can see the effect of gravity, and we can see the effect of dark matter in the Universe, we also know radio waves exist because we can hear the result through a receiver, and we know about electricity because if you stick your finger in a light socket you feel it! But how can we know God exists if we can’t see Him? Isn’t it a matter of faith.

  95. Stanley said

    Well, if you can’t KNOW a thing, you should go with the one with the best evidence, wouldn’t you?

  96. Maz said

    Stanley: So why don’t people go with the Bible? It has the best evidence for God, and the wonderful complexity and design of nature witnesses to a Divine Creator (though I know our evolutionist friends wouldn’t agree…except those who appear to believe both). The evidence is there to see.

  97. F. L. A. said

    As for the “reality of the sky being blue”, remember Maz, this is only according to the vision of normal human eyeballs, thus making it a matter of personal interpretation.
    Is it so very hard to consider the possabillity[I’ve respelled this word five times already;where’s a dictionary when you need one?! Stupid English…]that this concept can also be applied to theology?
    Perhaps you should try using a different example to help make your point.

  98. Stanley said

    The bible is seriously, seriously weak evidence compared to how we can explain the world with biology, anthropology, etc.

  99. Maz said

    F.L.A: Personal interpretation is exactly what I am on about. Your interpretation of the truth (theologically speaking) is different from my interpretation. Both interpretations can’t be right, so someone is wrong aren’t they?
    I think I’ll pass on any more examples.
    And actually the sky is blue because of the atmosphere being lit by sunlight, it is a chemical thing. (Scientific).

    Sorry Stanley, but when you look at ALL the evidence with your eyes open and not clouded by preconceived ideas backed up by assumptions then you will come to the right conclusion. Have you really gone into the archaeological, historical, astronomical, mathematical and prophetic and other-ologies to see that the Bible truly is amazingly accurate and truthful in every area?

  100. Stanley said

    Which is more credible. A self-validating book written thousands of years ago by humans with little understanding of the way the world works claiming to be the inspired work of God, and claiming to be complete truth although proven to be wrong, OR the life works of millions of credible experts who use the information they have to make the best assessment of the world around them, verified or debunked by other credible scientists so as to ensure we get the answer correct?

  101. Stanley said

    So you believe: the Earth is 6,00 years old, people get eaten by whales and can live in their stomachs, there was a firmament, there was a global flood in the last 4,000 years, etc.

  102. Maz said

    Stanley: Read #99 again…I listed the archaeology etc. that proves the Bibles validity, (have you looked into any of it atall?)…..so it is not self-validating….apart from all the Prophecy within those thousands of years of writings that has been fulfilled…..especilly in Jesus Christ, and there are some still being fulfilled today.
    The odds on Jesus fulfilling just a fraction of the prophecies about the Messiah are astronomical. And it doesn’t matter how long ago the Bible was written, it is still true.
    And who has proven the Bible to be wrong? There are many credible scientists who say that the Bible is correct.
    And you do not need intelligence or a PhD to write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

  103. Maz said

    Stanley: I guess you meant 6000 years…..but yes, I do believe the Genesis account of the Creation, also of the flood and of the ‘big fish’ that swallowed Jonah. Jesus authenticated that story Himself.
    And are you saying that God can’t do these things? Is God not a miraculous God? If He wasn’t, then He wouldn’t be God.

    We’ve actually gone off the topic at hand, and I don’t want to get into a debate about evolution again. 8)

  104. Stanley said

    You talk about archaeology, and you believe the world is 6,000 years old?

    There is gullible written on your ceiling.

  105. Stanley said

    And when I say self-validating, I mean the bible says “This is the inspired work of God because it is.” It doesn’t back itself up, and for all you know they could be flat out lying and you’re eating it up.

  106. John said

    Well, THIS is an interesting turn of events.
    Maz, I believe that you may have misunderstood the point Ferox was trying to make about the sky’s color.It is blue only because we as humans can normally see it that way, therefor, it is “blue”, BUT ONLY TO US. Because of the color spectrum that we see in. Many insects see in ultraviolet, thus, the sky is a different color to them. Would they be correct in making the same claims as us? Yes, but only in as it is concerned to THEM.
    Now to apply this to something like theology, it is a fact that there is a sun, and an atmosphere full of pollutants, moisture,and chemicals that effect the suns rays, but here observance of the facts start to fade away into that of personal interpretation. In theology, there are powerful cosmic forces that people label as various deities. Is something there? For the theist, yes. What they are and how they are personally perceived, is based on personal perception.
    Just like the color of the sky, or the colors of anything for that matter. In this way you and someone completely different like the two of us can both be “right” about the “facts” to a point, and yet still disagree about our personal perceptions of these facts.
    Do you understand what I mean?
    And archaeology only confirms SOME of what is in the Bible, not EVERYTHING that is in the Bible.Archaeology also confirms some of what’s in other non-Christian theological belief systems, so are they not also[according to this logic] grounded in truth? Odd that Fundamentalists never seem to consider this. Remember the problems you and others had when you tried to prove the Biblical flood account? You could not do it.
    The sciences and history should be used to help support theology[if you can pull this off without too much trouble, that is.], not the other way around.

  107. Maz said

    Stanley: As I said it is all about interpreting the evidence. Evolutionists see millions of years in the evidence, YE’s as were called, see only thousands.

    No gullibility here.

    And how is the Bible supposed to back ITSELF up? Isn’t fulfilled prophecy enough? Isn’t archaeological evidence enough? Isn’t historical evidence enough? Actually the prophecies within the Bible ‘back itself up’.
    Shall I list some of the prophecies relating to Jesus coming? And their fulfillments? Some thousands of years after they were prophecied? What of Isaiah 53? And Psalm 22?

    One prophecy given many times in the OT were of the Jewish people coming back to THEIR OWN country after the diaspora. And they are coming and have come in their thousands……in May 1948 Israel became a nation again after 2,500 years. It celebrated it’s 60th anniversary this year. No other nation in history has ever done that….and retained their language and traditions and religion.

    Again I ask, have you studied any of the evidence to get a balanced and unbiased result?
    And then there is the septenary numerical design within it’s pages and the name of Yeshua encoded within the OT….and much more.

  108. Maz said

    John: I know that how the eye is made and how it sees can produce a different colour to different animals and to people, but the fact of the colour can only be that it is one colour in reality. I see my flowers a darker colour when I wear my sunglasses, but are the flowers actually the darker colour that I see them? No. It is the lense I see through that has made my perception of the colour wrong from the reality of it’s true colour.
    I believe this can happen on a spiritual level too. There is only one reality, one truth in this Universe, and we need to know what it is. We need the right vision to see it.
    I believe the Bible is a window (if you will) into the truth of the Universe. I’m struggling to explain this better….but I hope you get my drift….

  109. Maz said

    John: As far as the flood goes, there are scientists that look at the Grand Canyon (I think that’s the place) and see how the flood gouged out that great canyon…..where did all that dirt go if it wasn’t taken away by a torrential flood?

  110. John said

    Maz, something like the age of the earth is one of those things that’s not really open to very much interpretation, personal or otherwise.
    As for the septenary numerical design, check out post#38 on the “Reaching India and the Atheist!” site.

  111. John said

    It was taken away by a rivers erosion Maz. Where? Go to the end of the river[grin]. The Grand Canyon also holds some of the best evidence for an ancient Earth due to the effects of that erosion.
    Do you really think that the receding waters of the biblical flood could cut through all those layers of solid stone at that depth in so short a period of time as implied within the story of Noah’s experiences?

  112. John said

    Maz, your window is facing into a different part of the yard that is our universe.
    Your in the front of the house in the living room, we are in the back of the house playing at the pool[smile]. I’d rather be in the pool out back than in the living room looking at the front yard with you.

  113. F. L. A. said

    And I’m the prankster from the next neighborhood who knocks on the front door and then runs away before you get there to open it.

  114. Maz said

    John: Talking about floods…..how will Hurricane Gustav affect you?

    I’m not a geologist so I thot I would share what one says about the Grand Canyon.

    Carved through sedimentary layers of limestone, sandstone and shale, and into the bedrock of schist and granite, this great chasm stretches 277 miles through the Colorado Plateau. It descends over a mile into the earth and extends as much as 18 miles in width.

    The “how”
    As we consider the “how,” we find that virtually all geologists agree that the Grand Canyon was carved by water. The question is how quickly and when. If we examine the prevailing interpretive literature about the Canyon, we find that the views presented are predominantly based on evolutionary theories. For the Canyon, this means that the rock layers were laid down over literally hundreds of millions of years, and that the Canyon was later carved slowly by the Colorado River. These theories tend to deny God’s involvement.

    But, if we look at the Canyon through the eyes of a biblical, or scriptural, geologist (those who believe in the Bible’s timeline of a young earth), we will see a very different Canyon. These geologists see a young canyon carved with a massive amount of water, likely in a matter of just days, shortly after the global flood of Noah’s day about 4,300 years ago.

    So is there evidence to support a biblical model? Yes. Let’s briefly examine a couple of the areas which do just that.

    According to the biblical model, the vast majority of the sedimentary layers we see in the Grand Canyon (and in the rest of the world for that matter) were deposited as the result of a global flood that occurred after, and ultimately as a result of, the initial sin that took place in the Garden of Eden about 6,000 years ago.

    Let’s look at the folding that is found in the sedimentary rock layers of the Canyon. The picture to the left is a fold in the Tapeats Sandstone in Carbon Creek, one of the side canyons within Grand Canyon. You can plainly see here that the rock was bent, or as the geologist would say, “folded,” while still soft or pliable. Notice that this folding has taken place without cracking the rock. Folds like this indicate that the folding had to happen soon after deposition, and that the deposition and the upheaval responsible for the folding were in fact one event. (Sorry pictures can’t be posted here).

    Another area that supports the biblical model is the contact lines between the layers themselves. When evolutionists look at this contact point between the Coconino Sandstone and the Hermit Shale, as seen to the right, they see 10 million years of “missing” time and material.

    But the creationists, using the biblical model, don’t see “missing” material at all. They see classic flood geology, only on a scale so large that it boggles the mind of the evolutionist.

    Note the knife-edge line of the contact point; this contact is the same throughout the length of the Canyon. If this represents 10 million years of missing material, why don’t we see any sign of either physical or chemical erosion between the layers?

    So does this “prove” the Grand Canyon is the result of a global Flood or how it was formed? No. It does show, however, that there is a legitimate, scientific alternative to the evolutionary dogma that has permeated our society.

    The “why”
    As to the “why” of the Grand Canyon, that is somewhat more speculative. The Canyon is often called “Exhibit A” in support of a young earth, and with the wonderful design of its animals and plants, it also confirms the Master Designer, the Creator God of the Bible. The Bible says: “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse” (Romans 1:20). What we see in the Canyon only supports and upholds what we read in the Word of God. And only from down in the Canyon can so much of it be seen.

    So is the Grand Canyon there to provide the skeptics with evidence that may be “clearly seen” if only they were willing to see? The heart of the issue is clearly addressed in Colossians 2:8 which reads, “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” It is the elementary principles of the world (or those of man) that have developed the evolutionary theories that reject the Word of God and God Himself.

    Could God have started a process (evolutionary uniformitarianism) that would have carved the Canyon over millions of years? Perhaps some would say yes, but the issue isn’t what God “could have done.” He could have done it any of a million ways. The issue is what God said He did in His Word.

    Eminent geologist Dr. Steven Austin explains from a biblical standpoint how Grand Canyon was formed. Geologic Evidences for Very Rapid Strata Deposition in the Grand Canyon.
    Millions of years to form Grand Canyon? Not at all! While the facts continue to baffle those who believe the Canyon took millions of years to form, Dr. Austin shows how the facts point to rapid formation by catastrophic, rushing water. Read the book ”Grand Canyon (The): Monument to the Flood.”

    Mount St. Helens is a very good example of quick geological formations. It is explosive evidence for catastrophe. There you will see canyons and rock layers (the sort you may have been taught take millions of years to form) created in a very short time!

    Take it or leave it, that’s my final post involving the flood.

  115. Maz said

    John: #110. The Septenary Design has nothing to do with The Bible Code or any other code.
    It is where the number 7 is found in verses and chapters, the whole OT is full of paterns of 7’s. No other book contains this design. And the number 7 is attributed to Gods perfection.
    It was discovered years ago by Dr. Ivan Panin, a Russian agnostic! He applied himself to the study of the scriptures when he was living in the USA. It was purely out of a literary interest. He was also a brilliant mathematician.

    There is a peculiarity in the Hebrew language, each letter also stands for a number (it has a numerical equivalant). Ofcourse latin also contains numerical values. But when Dr. Panin began to read the original Hebrew, his mathematical mind soon found that there was a striking repetition of the number 7, and multiples of 7. As he studied this phenomena he found that there were as many as 70 – 100 features of the number 7 in a single passage!
    This goes throughout the whole OT.

    Get onto the web site and read more for yourself if you are interested.

  116. John said

    Maz, we’ll have to destroy, uh, I mean,…critique[toothy grin] your Biblical Flood evidence later[if possible], we are having a lot of thunderstorms and scattered tornadoes. And another hurricane named Hanna is on the way! Tis the season[grumblegrumble]. There’s fish and alligators [and the occasional Razorback]swimming through my yard….under the house….out the other side…..I use my canoe[tied to the front porch, which has various water turtles, crabs,lizards, and snakes basking on it.] to get to my truck parked almost a block away. Snakes and mice weasel their way into our house, looking for dry land to sleep on. I found a Opossum in my closet the other night. The trees and bushes are full of creepy crawlies of all kinds[they don’t want to drown] so the birds and lizards are all having a ball, as you can well imagine, with all this great food available. There are floating “mats” of Fire Ants drifting around[being flooded from the earth they form a living raft out of their own bodies and just float around hoping to bump into something they can climb up on. Hopefully not your house…or legs[AAUGGHH!!!]
    Ferox is in Heaven with all of this going on[it figures]. All in all things are very interesting.
    I have to go.Have a good evening.

  117. Maz said

    John: It’s a paradise for bug and snake experts then! It’s one place I would never want to live. Hate the creepy crawly things!
    Do you actually live IN the swamps….it sounds like it.
    Hope the storms and hurricanes don’t wipe you out. Gustav is supposed to be worse than Katrina.
    I hope they are more prepared this year. Hanna doesn’t sound quite so bad.

    You can destroy…uh…critique the flood all you want, it shan’t shake my belief in what the Bible says. I would rather believe that than mans wisdom….whatever letters they may have after their name. You don’t have to be ignorant and unqualified to be wrong.

  118. John said

    From all of us to all of you, Happy Labor Day!
    Did you all labor[grin]?
    Yes Maz, we know, we know, your faith in these matters in unshakable[for better or worse], which is why after meditating on the matter we decided to not even bother.What would be the point, unless someone ELSE wanted to know?
    I can’t discuss science and history that involves evidence millions of years in the making with a Young Earth Christian Creationist. It IS cute though how you will criticize “mans wisdom” and then try to back up your arguments with science,abet of the Young Earth Christian variety[grin].

    Yes, I live in the swamps.And it is a paradise for Herpetologists[creepy crawly, reptile and amphibian scientists]. As for the weather, Gustave is passed, but the next one coming up may be worse. We will just have to wait and see what happens. We are all familiar with this stormy season and everything that comes with it…this is the price we pay for living here. Can’t have it all.
    Gotta go now, storm’s a brewing.

  119. Stanley said

    Its true. Many people believe what they believe no matter what, whether its right or wrong, good or bad, crazy or sane. Fortunately, the crazies will one day be such a minority, we won’t really have to have these conversations. Granted, I don’t think you can wipe out religion, but more and more people are figuring out that its just wrong.

    Its like Amish people. How crazy is not taking advantage of the discoveries we’ve made with our technology? They still exist, but they’re dwindling.

  120. Maz said

    John: ”The heavens declare the glory of God…” Ps: 19 v 1.

    ”Thus says God, the LORD (Yahweh), He who created the heavens and stretched them out; He who spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it, and spirit to them that walk on it;..”
    Isa: 42 v 5.

    You just have to LOOK at Gods creation to know He created it, it is man’s scientific endeavour to find out about this world and beyond but there are those that do not want to find the truth, because that means they will have to give an account of their lives to God. There are those who do not want to do that. And as we know there is the wisdom of man and the wisdom of God. The wisdom of man deny’s God and seeks to find another reason for life, the wisdom of God helps man know Him and accept the truth that He is the Creator of all that exists. And ”by Him all things consist (are held together)”, Col: 1 v 17b.

    We all have the same evidence out there….it’s how you interpret it, and what mind set you have that determines the result.

  121. Maz said

    Stanley: You say religion is wrong. When I came to know Christ my life changed for the BETTER.
    So have millions of others….drug addicts, murderers, criminals of all types, even terrorists have had their lives changed for the BETTER because of coming to Christ. It’s NOT a religion we came to, it is a PERSON. Is that crazy? Is that bad? Should those who have had their lives changed around from such awful things be ‘wiped out’?

    There are religions in the world that use violence and fear to rule the people, but Christ should never ever be lumped together with such fanaticism. If we are fanatic about anything, it is the love of God that has brought something wonderful into our lives, and we want to share that love with everyone.

    I use to swear, drink, smoke, lie, cheat, steal and sex went along with it all. I was excessively jealous when I got married which made life very difficult for both me and my husband….God changed all that. None of what was me before I came to Christ is part of the new life I have been living since I accepted Him as my Savior. I am a completely different person than who I was before. If that is wrong I wonder what is right?

  122. Maz said

    Stanley: If the Amish want to live that life then why not, it’s not harming anyone….look at how they reacted when those poor little Amish girls were shot dead. You may think they are crazy but that is the love of God in action.

  123. F. L. A. said

    Stanley, I disagree. There will always be insanity to some degree within humanity.
    It’s a side effect of intellect, and cannot be helped. Theology does have it’s positive uses, it is just that the ability to misuse theological belief is sooooo easy and there are sooooo many eager to use this to their advantage.

    Maz, you methods of evaluating “truth” in the sciences go against good reason.
    Let us observe a hypothetical scenario involving a character similar to your self within a college class involving physics:

    Hypothetical teacher-“Today class, we shall learn about Albert Einsteins theories on Quantum Physics. Now if you would please turn in your books to page…”

    Hypothetical Maz Character-“Is the information biblical?”

    Hypothetical teacher-“Um, I don’t see how it could be…is this really germane to the lesson in some way?”

    Hypothetical Maz Character- “Was Albert Einstein a Christian True Believer?”

    Hypothetical teacher-“I…don’t think so…why?”

    Hypothetical Maz Character-“Then the lesson is flawed from the very start! Unless it is of God it is not worth learning or remembering, for it is the wisdom of MAN and THE WORLD, thus it is tainted with sin.

    Hypothetical teacher-Oh? But Albert Einstein was a VERY brilliant man, one of the greatest minds this world has ever known. Do you honestly think that there is NOTHING of any value to be learned from the man on this subject?”

    Hypothetical Maz Character-You don’t have to be ignorant or underqualified to be wrong. We know that there is the wisdom of man and the wisdom of God.I would rather believe the wisdom of God than the wisdom of man…whatever letters they may have after their name. You probably think that the universe is over six thousand years old, too. It’s all a matter of interpreting the evidence. “For thinking themselves wise they became fools…

    Hypothetical teacher-Riiiiiiiigghht.[sigh]
    Are you quite sure that your in the right class??”

    Maz, it it about a lot more than just people interpreting evidence in different ways, for when provided with evidence that is contrary to your theological views, aside from misinterpreting it you also ignore some of it or in the case of history and the natural sciences, turn to sources like Ken Ham who alter evidence and create their own custom-made theological “sciences” to support their personal views.
    We can respect your desire to support your views and also try to win people over to your way of thinking, but there are better ways of doing these things.
    Stay away from the sciences. It is better to simply tell us “I don’t know, but my faith in God is still strong, and in time we may know more about this topic, if God wills it.” than to turn to the Young Earth Creation Christian “sciences” to try and fill in all of the gaps.

    The statements within the middle of post#121 are interesting considering the comments that were made within posts#40-#44 when you condoned the destruction of non-Christian culture and it’s people. And then you speak of wanting to share the love of your God.
    It seems that it is only after the opposition is believed crushed out of existence and things settle down, that a domoneiring culture begins to teach about “peace”.

  124. John said

    Maz, I like Job12:7 and 8[smile], even if I may be using them out of the proper context.

  125. Stanley said

    Can you not change yourself? Mental and emotional discipline isn’t easy, but you don’t need a miracle to overcome it.

  126. Stanley said

    “It” being lack of discipline.

  127. Maz said

    F.L.A: I am accused of only using the Bible and I am accused of using science to prove what I believe about the Bible. I can’t win. And Ken Ham is not the only source that I have used.
    How can two scientists, well up in their fields, come to different conclusions about the evidence they see concerning origins? It all comes down to their belief system…….but someone must be wrong….the question is which one?

    God has a right to destroy what is hurting His children. Any father would protect his children the same way if he loved them and wanted the best for them. He doesn’t kill people because they won’t believe His ‘religion’ like some who insist you believe or die, He loves all people and desires them to come to know the truth. After death, they have made their decision, they have chosen their own destiny. God has done everything He can to save this world…….but most go on denying He even exists.

  128. Stanley said

    Were you ever an atheist or anti-theist Maz?

  129. Maz said

    Stanley: All I can say is that when I was young my mum sent me to Sunday School and I learnt about Jesus from there. But although I loved collecting the pictures and enjoyed the things we did I tended to mess about sometimes, and I don’t think I believed it was really true. I grew up an unbeliever….meaning, that I didn’t believe in God the way I do now, although I did think there must be Someone called God out there.
    But that didn’t stop me from living my life my way, with all that youth did and got involved with then. I didn’t really give Him a thot most of the time.
    But one day, two years after I got married, I realised that Jesus was Who He said He was and I asked Him to be my Savior. That completely changed my life. It was as if my eyes had been opened and everything looked different. I felt different. A new creature in Christ. I’d been born again.

    I can’t say I was anti-theist, but I wasn’t a Christian.

  130. F. L. A. said

    Maz, I said sources “like Ken Ham” because I understand that you learn from others besides him.
    The problem is that you need to select a higher caliber of sciences.
    As for evidence of an ancient Earth and Evolutionary Sciences, This is not akin to different people agreeing that there is a sky, and then debating whether or not the Sky is colored “blue”, this is akin to evidence being provided that proves that your sun is at the center of your galaxy with everything in orbit around it, and then having some people[Guess who?] debating about how the sun and everything else ACTUALLY revolves around the Earth, but because of others spiritual blindness and personal flawed[or lack thereof]belief systems, they just observe the evidence differently. Do you understand what I mean?

    WEEEE never denied that your deity ever existed, Maz, only that the mythologies and information connected to HIM is open for debate, personal interpretation, and sometimes…should be taken with a bit of salt.

  131. Maz said

    F.L.A: Obviously we both have our sources, mine is from Creation Ministries and such-like and yours is from non-Christian atheistic sources that believe in evolution. I don’t have a problem with what your sources are so I wonder why you have a problem with mine. There are scientists on both sides, even if you think mine are somewhat crazy to believe in a God that created everything in 6 days.

    I think I’v said that the evidence is the same for everyone, we just see what it is saying differently because of our belief systems. I would question who was flawed.
    And the sun is not at the center of the galaxy, only the center of the solar system. Our solar system is actually near the edge, out on one of the arms of the spiral, about 30,000 ly from the center.

    If you do not deny that my ‘deity’ exists, you certainly deny Who He is, what His Son has done and the authority and truth of His Word He has given us.

    I like salt.

  132. F. L. A. said

    Maz, I believe that you missed my point.
    The fact that a sun is at the center of this solar system[I think that you understood what I meant, at least I hoped this at the time] and that all other heavenly bodies orbit around this sun is NOT up for personal interpretation, theological based or otherwise. Any source that claims otherwise about the sun is wrong.
    This standard also qualifies for evidence supporting the belief in evolution and an ancient Earth. It has been proven to be true, regardless of how the evidence is accepted or interpreted.

  133. John said

    Was that a reference to 30,000 light years that I noticed within post#131 Maz[smile]? Such time spans can boggle the mind, eh?

    I can’t believe that Ferox said Galaxy instead of solar system. Must be playing too hard to think strait….gonna have to take things a little easier…[sometimes I’m so jealous I could just scream].

  134. Maz said

    F.L.A: The sun being at the center of the solar system is as obvious as the fact that I have blood flowing through my veins. But when evolutionists look at the evidence for the origins of life on earth they make too many assumptions, the evidence is not as obvious and you have to make your decisions about what happened as near as the evidence can reveal…which I believe is Creation. I did get your point, just like to share my astronomical knowledge.

    And evolution ‘proven to be true’, based on so many questionable assumptions, (as I said before)…..not so.

  135. Maz said

    John: It is all to do with time dilation and the fact that time on earth is not the same as time out in space. Those 30,000 ly are not ‘earth time’ years, as the earth goes round the sun etc. etc. making the day-year, but out in space it is a whole new ball game! So I wasn’t going against my young earth belief! 😉

    I guess you could scream as much as you like out there in the wilds? Do you have any neighbours of sorts?

  136. Barney said

    “It is all to do with time dilation and the fact that time on earth is not the same as time out in space. Those 30,000 ly(light years) are not ‘earth time’ years, as the earth goes round the sun etc. etc. making the day-year, but out in space it is a whole new ball game!” – Maz


    A year is the number of days (365 days) it takes the earth to orbit the sun. A light year is the distance in miles that light travels in a year (365 days).

  137. Maz said

    Barney: If you do not understand about time dilation I cannot explain it to you in only a few words here. (But I’ll try) The weird thing about space beyond this solar system is that time runs far more slower out there than it does on earth. The scientists have shown that even in a high altitude plane, a cessium clock (which is supposed to be the most accurate in the world) runs slower up there than one down on the earth. it is a small fraction of time, but this slowing increases the further you go out. So what we call a light year is not entirely accurate, it just relates to the distance we believe these objects are and light speed is the measurement they use. There is also disagreement between scientists as to whether the speed of light was a lot faster in the past….and that it might have been instantaneous. The debate continues on this subject.

  138. Barney said

    Oh, more Creationist baloney. Never mind.

  139. Stanley said

    Did you know that time moves considerable faster on the edge of a black hole? Its all to do with gravity we think.

  140. Maz said

    Barney: Actually some of this comes from non-Christian scientist sources…..still baloney?

    Stanley: You are right. Time is warped considerably at the event horizan of a Black Hole….in fact if you saw someone fall into a Black Hole you would see them suspended in time at this horizan, to them though apart from being torn apart by the terrific pull of gravity which even light cannot escape, they wouldn’t know any different. So that’s why it’s called a Black Hole.

  141. Barney said

    Yes, the idea that the earth is six thousand years old is baloney. The non-baloney parts of whatever it was that that you refer to notwithstanding.

  142. Maz said

    Baney: Funny you should accept the scientific theories that would actually lead to the possibility of an earth only 6000 years old.

  143. Maz said

    Sorry….Barney. Slip of the fingers!

  144. Maz said

    Barney: Do you read a lot of science?
    Here is just a snippet of something I have just been reading about the problems concerning the Big Bang model. If the Universe is about 20 billion years old, we should see very young objects at the edge of the farthest regions of the visible Universe (where Hubble picks up thousands of galaxies and quasars). But what does Hubble find?

    ”R. Cowan wrote ‘Mature before their time’, Science News 163(9): 139, 2003. In his article he described how the Hubble Space Telescope had seen mature spiral and barred spiral galaxies throughout the universe which had to have formed early after the Big Bang, but much too soon for the Big Bang Model to be true. We are also finding that large complex galaxies existed “too early” for the Big Bang Model to be true. In some cases these large complex galaxies were formed “only” one billion years after the Big Bang, much too early for such complexity to exist according to the Model.

    Still another recent observation is that the farthest quasars appear to be powered by massive black holes; but, they are so distant that they would have had to form less than a billion years after the Big Bang. This is impossible if the Model is true. To this point the evolutionist L. Ferrarese wrote Feeding the first quasars, Nature 421: 329, 2003. He observed: “Thus, the very existence of quasars at such high red shifts is a challenge to models of structure formation.” ”

    The scientists are finding more problems and questions for the Big Bang with Hubble than answers.

  145. Maz said

    Maybe Truth Talk should ask the question, ”Is the Universe only 6000 years old or 20 billion? What do the scientists say?”
    We’re way off Wicca!

  146. F. L. A. said

    Yeeesssssss, way off, but still interesting nonetheless. I believe that we deviated from the original topic because John discovered that you were only interested in “saving” him[and me], so there was no real chance of more information to be discovered by either party.Like when Chris C. gave up on the last evolutionary site.
    We have no neighbors within three miles Maz. A man could scream and scream and scream…and the jungle also muffles noise.

  147. Maz said

    F.L.A: Even though I am interested in ‘saving’ John (actually God is more so seeing as He paid so great a price to do it) I am still interested in how he thinks and what he believes…..it helps in the debate.

    I am invisaging two loan wooden shacks in the middle of the swamps, surrounded by snakes, bugs and alligators….is that correct? Did you always live out there?
    I live in a town of about 40,000 and I am surrounded by houses. But I don’t have to go far before I see the countryside.

  148. Barney said


    Maz, I can say that because two plus two equals four the moon is made of cheese, but the correctness of part of my statement doesn’t make the other part true.

    That is what you young earth apologists try to do with science, too. THAT’s where the baloney comes in.

    Bye now.

    I’m done.

    Go back to evangelizing the pagans.

    Sorry I even mentioned it.

    Never mind.

    Forget I said anything.

  149. Maz said

    Barney: What I said in #137 had everything to do with a young earth. But 2 x 2 has absolutely nothing to do with what the moon is made of. This sounds more like the mumbo jumbo the evolutionists come up with.

  150. F. L. A. said

    Add some stilts to those “wooden shacks” and that will be close enough. No, I did not always live out here, I just never really went away after my arrival in 1985[?]. Secrecy, friendship, and plenty to eat keep me here.
    John has one of his holidays coming up at the end of this month.
    Perhaps you can ask him about it, and then try and pick it to pieces.
    Maz, how can your study of astronomy not include the accepted time span applied to the speed of starlight?

  151. John said

    Wooden shacks?!
    My only personal experience with the Brit-ish countryside is reading my copy of “The Wind In the Willows” and Watership Down”[books on mythology and history not included].
    Nope, no neighbors here. We can do whatever we want.Everyone out here keeps to themselves[most people are involved in some form of minor illegal activity, like growing marijuana, moonshining, or poaching.I didn’t mention in post #118 that this is also a paradise for bandits and scoundrels of all kinds, but not ME of course[toothy grin]]so anyone found within your territory uninvited is either REALLY lost or a troublemaker.

    post#134; Maz, we have been over this, remember? And the quotes in post 144 do not discredit an ancient universe at all. I don’t understand how you thought they would help support your theory of a young[6,000 year old] universe. Check out the site “Ask an Astrophysicist” in regards to information concerning a collapsing and re-expanding universe[and of course other things, if astronomy is your thing].

  152. Maz said

    John: Astronomers are always learning more about the Universe the more technically advanced the instruments they use, and the more evidence comes along that goes AGAINST the Big Bang. Even atheistic and evolutionist scientists are coming up against this evidence. And they know little about gravity…….do you know that light BENDS when in contact with a force of gravity? Have you heard of ‘lensing’? And do you know that they believe space is CURVED?

    They have discovered (non-believers) that there is a Black Hole within the center of EVERY galaxy. Did you read #144? There is far more than that tit-bit about it. There are stranger things out there in the Universe than we can possibly comprehend, and light is one of the strangest. When two photons are speeding towards each other you would think that their approaching speed would be 372,000 mps? Not so. It is STILL 186,000 mps. Try and get your head around that. So to say that something is billions of light years away is really inaccurate……it is just how we reckon the DISTANCE of an object using light speed, but if that speed has not remained constant since the beginning then the Universe would be a lot younger. And if time is so slow OUT THERE that the Universe in actual fact IS only 6000 years old then the Bible is right….and that is what I believe in, more than mans science. Mans science is limited, he doesn’t know enough to make such sweeping statements about our origins. It really makes me laugh sometimes at their proposterous claims.
    God was there in the beginning and He told us how it came to be, I believe Him because the Bible’s veracity has been proven to me over and over again.

  153. Maz said

    John: I went onto ‘Ask an Astrophysicist’ and look what I found. Does it sound familiar?

    ”General Relativity does indeed predict that time should run slower near a massive body. This is because there is a relation between the energy of light and its frequency: the greater the energy, the higher the frequency. As light travels upward in a gravitational field, it loses energy and so its frequency goes down. This means that the length of time between one wave crest and the next goes up. To an observer high up, it would appear that everything below was taking longer to happen.
    This prediction was first tested in 1962 using a pair of very accurate clocks mounted at the top and bottom of a water tower. The clock at the bottom, i.e. nearer the Earth, was found to run slower, in exact agreement with General Relativity.

    Hope this answers your question.

    Laura Whitlock
    for Ask an Astrophysicist.”

    So gravity effects light and it effects time.

  154. Maz said

    John: Thanks for that site, it’s a wonderful wealth of information!

  155. Maz said

    John: Here’s some more enlightening information from your site about ‘Dark matter’. The stuff the astronomers had to invent because of the missing mass they say MUST be there according to the Big Bang theory and the expanding Universe.

    Never seen and undetectable, and they don’t know what it is made of. But they say it MUST BE THERE! (For their theory to be true!)

    ” ‘Dark Matter’.
    Name given to the amount of mass whose existence is deduced from the analysis of galaxy rotation curves but which until now, has escaped all detection. There are many theories on what Dark Matter could be. NOT ONE, at the moment, is convincing enough and the question is STILL A MYSTERY.”

    The same goes for their Dark Energy.

    There could be another reason for what is OUT THERE! A Force far greater than any Dark Matter.

    ”For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers….all things were created by Him, and for Him; And He is before all things, and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST (are held together, cohere).” AMP Bible in brackets.

  156. F. L. A. said

    You can study that site and yet,YET STILL think that the whole universe and everything within it is only a measly 6,000 years old.

  157. Maz said

    F.L.A: The Universe is amazing…..God is amazing! I believe in the miraculous.

  158. F. L. A. said

    So do we Maz, however your ability to try and assimilate real science and scientific evidence into something completely incompatible with the science and scientific evidence that was originally provided, displays what appears to be a desperation and denial that borders on the insane. Theists who do this may be who some ruder Atheists are thinking of when they think of theological belief systems as a form of superstitious,outdated,mental disorder.
    I’ll let John finish up with the criticizing on this issue, as your statements were originally directed at him.

    Julian Huxley tells this:”I recall the story of the philosopher and the theologian. The two were engaged in disputation and the theologian used the old quip about a philosopher resembling a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat-which wasn’t even there.
    “That may be’,said the philosopher,’but a theologian would have found it.”

  159. Maz said

    F.L.A: You talk about ‘real science and scientific evidence’ as if they have it all sown up and they know everything about the Universe. You have to realize that the more they learn from the ‘evidence’ the more questions that ‘evidence’ raises for our origins, especially when it comes to the Universe. They are always updating and changing their minds about things. Now they are saying that Pluto is not a planet. And I’m surprised that you talk of superstitions in that way.

    Ha ha ha!….the cat that wasn’t there…..that’s exactly what I was saying about that Dark Matter they keep on about!

  160. John said

    And that’s what we’re saying about your evidence for a 6,000 year young universe. We already knew all of that information that you tried to share with us about light waves, but thanks anyway.
    Perhaps you missed Ferox’s point within the first half of post#158.
    The very site that you tried to use information from to support your theological views on the universe supplies information contrary to your views. You either ignored or misunderstood all conflicting data and quotes within that post in your quest to try and prove your point.Go to the site and ask for information on the age of the universe, the time required for a galaxy to form, for a solar system to form, etc. One should not pick and choose evidence over such a topic. As you are so fond of implying, one view is correct[or at least greatly superior] and the other is not, and if you have doubts about the information supplied by the top minds of this field[As well you should, according to you, for is it not “the wisdom of man” and “of the world” produced by secular, Atheistic, evolutionistic, scientists indoctrinated by secular school systems….instead of the “unchanging wisdom of God”?] why would you so readily accept those few nuggets of information that you think might help to support your views? Like when some Christians try to use the flood/deluge/beginning of the world out of water myths from other non-Christian cultures and theologies as evidence of the Biblical Flood myth being true, with disregard for all of the irregularities and conflicting accounts of the non-Christian myths.
    Oh well, enjoy the site as well as you can allow yourself to.

  161. Maz said

    John: Did you not understand my response to Ferox #158?

    ”Go to the site and ask for information on the age of the universe, the time required for a galaxy to form,” Didn’t you read about the problems with this….the fact that they have seen fully formed galaxies near the edge of the visible Universe which are supposed to be soon after the Big Bang? They should be younger, but they aren’t.

    And you obviously didn’t see or understand the light/space/time issue either.

    ”One should not pick and choose evidence over such a topic.”
    If I pick this out….this is concerning an issue which I used to answer your question to me. You have to accept what it says too when it doesn’t agree with your beliefs. I quoted the ‘top minds of this field’ from a site YOU gave me. No Ken Ham or any other creationist present here.

    ”As you are so fond of implying, one view is correct[or at least greatly superior] and the other is not,”
    There are differences of opinion in the scientific world even in evolutionistic/atheistic camps, there isn’t just one idea or theory, and there are scientists on both sides (Creation/Evolution) who are ‘top minds in their field’ who differ, they can’t all be right an they? Only one is right and this is where we disagree on who!

    Even using your own site I am wrong. You don’t even accept ”the wisdom of man” yourself.

    ”…why would you so readily accept those few nuggets of information that you think might help to support your views?”
    Why don’t you? It’s from your side of the fence John.

    Some myths and legends actually originate in historical truth, you just have to know the difference between reality and folk lore. If you know the Creator you can, but whatever I say will not convince you any more than what you say will convince me.


  162. Barney said

    “there are scientists on both sides (Creation/Evolution) who are ‘top minds in their field’ who differ, they can’t all be right an they?” – Maz

    This makes it sound like the two positions are equal, which is where we start to notice the aroma of frying baloney wafting through the air.

    The young earth position is universally discounted throughout the scientific community. Maz wants us to think this is because they just don’t get it. Or is there is vast conspiracy?

    Either way, it takes humility to concede a point.

  163. Maz said

    Barney: I’m not keen on sausages myself, but my son loves them.

    Ditto. (my last word at the end of #161)

  164. Maz said

    John and Ferox: Hope you are not having too much trouble from the storms and hurricanes, we’ve had flooding in parts of Britain and Wales too. Thankfully I’m OK where I am.

    ‘They’ say that the Universe is about 13 billion years old, but that is based on assumptions, so without taking into account all I’v……er…. THEY (some anyway) have said, and the problems with ‘old’ galaxies near the edge and other such discoveries Hubble has revealed….. stella spanners in the works so to speak…..they are making sweeping statements that have not yet been totally verified.

    Space is not flat. Which means, when we look in a straight line from here….it is actually not. How much have you read about this phenomenon? I’m fascinated by the weirdness of space, time and light, so I’v read a lot…..and mainly from non-Christian sources I might add. That’s why I see how much assumption is applied in their evaluations.

  165. John said

    That is why I recommended an investigation into the “Collapsing Universe” theory, as it seemed to be compatible with your “old “galaxies on the edge of the known universe.
    13 billion years is a far cry from 6,000 Maz. You’ll never see a variation in scientific speculation like that, except by people like yourself. You give me all this information as if I never actually studied this topic or that site. I DID recommend it to you, you know.We have a lot to do today, so You’ll have to wait until later for any of us to continue criticizing you.
    Have a great day.

  166. F. L. A. said

    Maz, nobody who supplies information for that site, none of those “top minds” would agree with you on the idea of a 6,000 year old universe. There are many mysteries, and there are many theories and disagreements about many things,however this is not the kind of a thing that ANY of them would disagree on and agree with you about.
    You are using the information[That which you choose to use]out of context.
    Keep studying, or just make a decision to believe what you wish and leave it at that.

    As we seem to be getting nowhere fast on the topic of science[As usual],how about asking John something in relation to the original topic?

  167. Maz said

    John and Ferox: To be honest the subject is getting a bit like stale bread. Lets not waste our time on this any more. I would only be repeating myself again so………
    Maybe something else more exciting will come up to get us into combat again. 😉

  168. F. L. A. said

    Is that what you think that you have been through?

    As for the subject that you no longer wish to waste any more time on, are you referring to the original topic, or the discussion on the sciences?

  169. Maz said

    F.L.A: Intellectual combat. A war of words so to speak. You say something….I say something.
    My main motive is not to win the battle but to win you over to my side….well, Gods side….but you have made it clear that will never happen.

    I think the debate on Wicca was closed a while ago. I don’t think there is any point in us discussing the science of space/time/light any further is there? John doesn’t get it. I could go into the warped space/time at the expansion of the Universe when God initially ‘stretched out the heavens’ but I don’t think he can accept it however I try to explain it.

  170. F. L. A. said

    JOHN doesn’t get it?!?
    Not like…… you, eh?
    I told him it would be a waste of time introducing you to that site. Hopefully others reading these words understood everything being posted.
    You cannot win us over to your side, and you really wouldn’t want me there anyway[Hate the creepy crawly things!-Maz].

    Intellectual combat? But you only understand one way of looking at things. So how much intellectual “combat” could any of us possibly have with you on any topic not directly related to Christianity?
    You could not even debate with John about Wicca very well due to your eagerness in trying to proselytize. You cannot win a battle successfully against someone if you do not understand them, and you never seamed to have any real interest in trying to understand.
    No loss for us though[huge sharp-toothed grin].

  171. Maz said

    F.L.A: As I said, stalemate. You don’t think I get it, and I say John doesn’t get it.
    We are on opposite sides of the fence, we have opposing beliefs, and we are going nowhere fast.
    What you told John was quite true, he should have listened to you!

    You wouldn’t be the same person if you did come to Christ, He has a habit of changing people…..for the better.

    You also only understand one way of looking at things….stalemate again! 🙂

    I did have a real interest in understanding Johns beliefs or I wouldn’t have bothered.

    ‘No loss for us though’…..I would disagree…..your loss is far greater than you realise.

  172. John said

    I reckon you think I don’t get it in the same way I don’t get the truth of REAL history and the truth of REAL archaeology,zoology,biology,paleontology,the evolutionary sciences, etc.,etc., right? Perhaps you could explain what it is that I, no, nevermind. We all know how pointless it would be to get back into a discussion with you involving the sciences, so just nevermind.

    I would love for you to actually meet with and see the two of us[knowing smile].

    You had an interest in understanding my beliefs? Gee,I couldn’t tell. It almost seemed to me that you had already decided that I was already wrong about everything and had nothing of any true value to share, so you just decided to jump right into the important part, your true goal of your being here, to proselytize.
    You don’t know anything about my theology but for the little bit I’ve shared with you. but I know a LOT about yours. I believe that this puts me in a position of greater advantage than you on this matter.
    I wonder, why have no other Christians come here to help you for such a while? You know they’re reading. Do they think that you’ve been doing a good job, or are they just kind of apathetic, knowing that I’m a “hopeless case”?

  173. Stanley said

    This is why we can’t have nice things.

  174. Maz said

    John: It all depends what IS REAL doesn’t it? We could argue that until the cows come home and yes I agree, it is pointless to get back into any scientific discussion with you. We have both read a lot I guess but still we seem to see things differently. OK. So be it. I rest my case.

    Yes, I expect it would be quite…..exciting??…to meet? Maybe you would use another verb eh? (great big wide grin).

    I don’t have to believe you are right to be interested in WHAT you believe. It helps me to know where you are coming from. We are both believers in something and we both hold to those beliefs. But we are both on here to give our opinions and debate about topics as they come up, so I shall from time to time….as you do to me….tell you that you are wrong. I know that sounds pretty (I can’t think of the word!!!…I expect you could find one!) dogmatic. But I believe with ALL MY HEART that the God of Israel, Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the NT, Jesus Christ the Lord who was and is God, the risen Son of God, is the Only True and Living God, Creator of the Universe and every other god or gods are idols that man has invented to reach some spiritual goal other than the truth.
    So trying to point out to me that I am crazy or brainless or whatever other verb has been used in the past to say the same thing, is pointless. (I can hear a big siiiiggghhhh from way off in the swamps somewhere!) 8)

    And proselytize….which means to convert from one religion to another, is not quite right. I don’t want to CONVERT you from your religion to another religion, (and I can’t convert ANYONE anyway, only God can change a heart) because as I’v said before, Christianity is not another religion, I want you to know Jesus Christ, the Son Of God, who died for you. (Deep sigh from this end).

    No one is a ‘hopeless case’ until they have died, then Hope is gone forever.

    I am surprised by the lack of Christian witness here, we’ve had a few, but considering how big the USA is and taking into account how many listen to the show, I am surprised there aren’t more with a hoeart to win souls through these debates….because whether you like it or not, and whether they realise it or not, that is what we are here in this world for. Time is running out, and we need to be out in the world telling people about how much God loves them and wants them to know the truth about His Son and what He has done for them. Most religions are driven by fear, but we are driven by the love of God to bring the lost to Jesus Christ their Savior.

    If only you knew John…..

  175. F. L. A. said

    You would not want to meet us Maz, that was just a joke. John just wanted to see that look on your face when I descended from the trees. Things would no doubt get exciting.
    You know, we never really tried to prove you wrong until you meddled with the sciences and history.
    If only you knew, Maz.

  176. Maz said

    F.L.A: I wasn’t serious either….I mean….you live over the other side of the world…almost.
    And you wouldn’t see me anywhere near any bugs or alligators, especially the bugs. I don’t mind snakes, unless ofcourse they are lethal!

    You swing in the trees aswell as wander through the swamps at night? Curiouser and curiouser.

  177. Maz said

    F.L.A: Let me ask you two questions.

    What would happen to me when I die if what you believe in is true?

    What would happen to you when you die if what I believe in is true?

  178. F. L. A. said

    I was not aware that you were that familiar with my personal beliefs Maz.They are not exactly the same as John’s you realize. I am not a Wiccan.
    But to answer your question as best as I can, if you died and what I believed in the afterlife was true, then your spirit would go to your own Heaven or Hell, as judged most fitting by the deities.

    If your personal Christian view was the one and only absolute truth, then I would probably go to your Christian Hell after I died, as there would be no other suitable place for me.
    I could never belong in your Christian Heaven, but for reasons that I shall not explain, I am not sure that I would end up within your Christian Hell either, for I am something outside of your theology. Perhaps your God is himself puzzled over my existence, scratching his great cosmic head[MilkyWay dust clouds puffing up from his celestial scalp]and wondering what to make of and do with me.

    I do not swing in the trees, Maz. I am not built for it.
    I climb and I crawl.

  179. Maz said

    F.L.A: The questions are still valid whether I know what you believe or not.
    How can my spirit go to MY OWN Heaven or Hell….do you believe in MY H & H? Or did I misunderstand?

    If my Hell is true (whatever you believe) you would deffinitely NOT in a million trillion years want to go there. It was made for the devil and his angels not for man, but if man chooses not to accept Gods wonderful gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ then that is the only place they can go. Do you not understand, God DOES NOT want you to go there. Why on earth do you think He sent His Son to die so we could? The most precious person in all of eternity….and you reject it so easily. And I’m sure He knows more about you than you know about yourself.

    Whatever your physical state, God wants you with Him in eternity. Like I said to John…if only you knew….one glimpse of Heaven and one glimpse of Hell would make your mind up pretty quickly.

  180. F. L. A. said

    I believe that you did misunderstand, Maz. We have a belief in multiple Heavens and Hells that exist in accordance to the multiple deities and their theological belief systems. Therefor, yes, like John, I believe in the existence of your Christian Heaven and Hell, but as my theological belief system is not connected to Middle Eastern theology in any way, I do not concern myself with it in the way that you do and should. I never said that I wanted to go to Christian Hell, only that I do not think I belong in Christian Heaven, and thus according to your personal views, I would have no other alternative but to end up in Christian Hell.

    Knowing me better than I know my own self your Deity may well be able to do, but….your deity is a human deity[Unless I am mistaken.],of which I can not explain the significance of. You do not understand just how stunningly different I am from you and everyone else, and I am not inclined to help you understand better, but try and understand this; I can never be as you can be and want me to be, for I am just too alien. I can only be accepted as I am. And if by some [tiny] chance I am wrong and you are completely right about the afterlife, then perhaps your deity will be big[Or curious and amused?] enough to set aside a special place between Heaven and Hell for someone like me to reside in.

  181. Maz said

    F.L.A: ”I believe in the existence of your Christian Heaven and Hell.” Then why don’t you believe the rest? The ‘Christian Heaven’ and the ‘Christian Hell’ are unique, you can’t have others along side them.

    My Deity is Spirit, and He is Truth. And He is the Only One. He came to earth in the human form of His Son purely to bring His message of Truth and to die for us.

    And whatever you are Ferox, I am convinced that if you can think, and type all these posts on here, then you must have a brain that can reason (of sorts), I think you make yourself more mysterious than you really are. And I think you enjoy teasing people with this.

    And there is no place between Heaven and Hell.

    AND….I don’t think I want to continue to labour this point any more. I have said enough.

  182. F. L. A. said

    So, you have finally decided to give up on this endeavor?

  183. John said

    Well, nothing for me to add here…

  184. Stanley said

    What do ya’ll think about the Emergent Church?

  185. Maz said

    F.L.A: There is nothing good about it. I don’t like giving up, though I can still pray ofcourse, I just think I and others have said more than enough to you, but there comes a time when nothing more can be said.

  186. Stanley said

    4:44 AM Maz? Where are you? And go to bed.

  187. F. L. A. said

    Maz is somewhere in England, Stanley.

  188. Maz said

    I live in beautiful Hampshire.

  189. Stanley said


  190. F. L. A. said

    I live in what has been referred to by civilized men as a “Green Hell”.

  191. John said

    Stanley, If you want to start talking about the Emergent Church with the Christians here then they may bring up scripture like Revelation 2:14-17, Matthew 7:15-20, and other verses warning against false/corrupted doctrine and teachers.

  192. John said

    Stanley, check out the site “What emerging from the Emergent Church?” listed under “Church”. You may find it interesting.

  193. Stanley said

    I was thinking about spending some time looking into the Emergent Church. I’ve been thinking about becoming something Christian, so I was looking into what people here think about X. I’m convinced ya’ll are wrong, so I’m moving on.

  194. Maz said

    Stanley: There is a lot of ‘something Christian’ out there, just make sure you find the Truth. I don’t believe the emergent Church is it. The One you need to get in touch with is the One Who is the Head of the Christian Church….Jesus Christ.

  195. Stanley said

    I’m not looking for infallibility, I’m looking for genuine intent, practical philosophy, and some resemblance of modesty.

  196. Maz said

    Stanley: As I said, you should be looking to getting in touch with Jesus Christ if you are sincere in finding true Christianity, because anything less would be a waste of time and do nothing for your future destiny.

  197. Stanley said

    If its destined, I’m already going there.

  198. Maz said

    Stanley: Your destiny is according to your choice. You accept or reject Jesus sacrifice for you or you face God at the Great White throne judgment.

  199. Maz said

    There should have been a , after ‘accept’.

  200. Maz said

    Anyway….I think you get my point Stanley.

  201. F. L. A. said

    Maybe you should just be an Agnostic, Stanley.

  202. Stanley said

    Agnosticism is boring. I’m looking to spice my religious beliefs up a bit.

  203. F. L. A. said

    I thought that you would be “spicier” as an Agnostic than as a Bright.
    Much of what you asked for within a theological belief system[Call it a “religion” if you will. Some people here have a narrow alternate definition of the word though, so John and I use this alternate label so they can assume that it means what they want it to mean.] within post#195 could be open to personal interpretation, which of course leaves you with a multitude of options to chose from.
    Should you ever make a decision on which faith you wish to follow, then do bear in mind: You get out of theology what you are willing to put into it.

  204. abc's said


    Are you being serious?

  205. Stanley said

    Agnostics and Brights are really similar. I think I’ll form my own sect.

  206. Stanley said

    Something a little more fun.

  207. F. L. A. said

    Define “fun”.

  208. Maz said

    Stanley: Does the Truth not matter to you then? Just make up your own religion? What’s the point?

  209. F. L. A. said

    Maz, how old is your planet, roughly?

  210. Maz said

    F.L.A: You know what I’m going to say…..why ask?

  211. F. L. A. said

    Does the truth not matter to you then?

  212. Maz said

    F.L.A; It matters to me but does it really matter to you?

  213. F. L. A. said

    Of course. Why do you think I have such a good time trying to argue with you about history and the sciences?

  214. Maz said

    F.L.A: That is the reality….all you want to do is have a good time arguing…so I will not play your game.

  215. F. L. A. said

    Too bad…you were such fun to play with too.
    Although it is my motivating factor,I do not come here JUST to have a good time with the Young Earth Christian Creationists you know.
    Will you continue to play with John?

  216. John said

    I bet I’m too much like Ferox.

  217. Stanley said

    The truth does matter. Proof matters too though.

  218. John said

    It’s especially helpful if the two can be combined[grin].

  219. Maz said

    F.L.A: I will only answer if I havn’t repeated myself a thousand times before.

  220. John said

    Fair enough, Maz.
    After all, this is why I stopped debating with Brad on the “Interview with a Wiccan” site and you and Bob Griffin on the last site concerning the topic of evolution.

  221. F. L. A. said

    Happy birthday to you,
    Happy birthday to you,
    You look like a monkey and you smell like one too!

    Happy Birthday John.
    Congratulations on surviving for 33 years…so far.

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