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Can You Be Gay & Christian?

Posted by truthtalklive on February 11, 2008

How do you minister to the Gay & Lesbian Community?

Today’s guest is Dr. Michael Brown, to find out more about his lecture series visit his website at www.coalitionofconscience.org/

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113 Responses to “Can You Be Gay & Christian?”

  1. Dan said

    Of course!

    As can single men and women who are attracted to the opposite sex.

    It’s called abstinance and it is possible.

  2. John said

    King James IV of Scotland, later as King James I of England, commissioned the creation of one of the most popular versions of the Christian Bible used by Christians throughout “modern” history.
    And HEEEE was gay.[!?]

  3. David said

    You can be gay and CHRISTIAN because to be gay means to be happy. TRUE Happiness is with JESUS and I really like what the gentleman said when He called in “I got over My homosexuality by FALLING IN LOVE WITH JESUS” That is the key to all problems and situations…saturation of the LOVE of CHRIST!!!

  4. Fred said

    Did Stu say “hundreds of thousands” of gays have become heterosexual?

    I smell baloney.

    The idea that homosexuality is a learned trait doesn’t make sense to me, either. When and how did the five percent of us (or whatever the ratio is) who are gays get converted to homosexuality? Were they recruited? Or did they just decide that they would enjoy being ostracized by their friends and coworkers and shunned by their families? Why would anyone choose to be homosexual?

  5. Brad said

    Fred, why would anyone “choose” to murder? Or rape? Or steal? Or lie? They’re all sins – just like homsexuality – all with consequences, yet people “choose” to do these things every day. Why is that?

    Because people’s natures are sinful. B/c we have the free choice to sin or not to sin, and we often enjoy the sin more than the other options.

  6. Chris C. said

    The American Psychological Organization has stated that, while sexual orientation is often fluid in a person’s life or development, it is almost never a conscious choice. Sexual orientation cannot be changed through therapy or through voluntary committment. Additionally the Surgeon General issued a report in 2001 which agreed that “there is no valid scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed.”

    I am not saying I believe homosexuality is purely genetic. I don’t think there is enough evidence to say this and I really don’t believe it either. I think that it is partly controlled by pre-natal hormones, and also by our childhood development.

    Ultimately to compare sexual orientation (the ‘wrong’ ones, I mean, like gay and bi) to murder, rape, theft, or lying is appalling. Yes, people choose to do these wrong things, often consciously, and often under mental duress. But homsexuals do not chose their sexual orientation. I wonder, why would God set up a system whereby he purposefully created a given percentage (5% or whatever our supposed number is) with a lifestyle which he deemed ‘sinful’. Doesn’t seem too loving (or logical) to me.

    I just want to add that we have observed homosexual behavior in well over 100 animal species. I wonder, are they just living in sin as well?

  7. Jack said

    Now this is a touchy “get it” subject. I look at everything to see if I can find a B.L.T. Blessing Lesson Test.
    Gay people are a blessing in that they has far more creative abilities than the vast majority of straight people.
    Gay people taught me a lesson in that over the years (although not as much lately) I’ve been “approached, hit on, made a pass at, I don’t know why just figured I had “the look”. It made me realize how women must feel to be harassed by straight guys.
    The test is of course to be respectful and kind. They are just as valuable to God as myself, an old person, a black person, or an unborn baby.

    I’m most definitely straight, I love the shape and feel of a women. My only thought is a matter of control. I see these guys hanging out in rest areas parking lots , parks, and porn shops. Surely they aren’t happy and I feel empathy for them I just don’t know how to get thru to them. There is a better way!

  8. Willie said

    B/c we have the free choice to sin or not to sin,

    So Brad, when did you “choose” to be straight?

    Was Rev. Haggard not available for this interview?

  9. Brad said

    The American Psychological Organization has stated that, while sexual orientation is often fluid in a person’s life or development, it is almost never a conscious choice. Sexual orientation cannot be changed through therapy or through voluntary committment. Additionally the Surgeon General issued a report in 2001 which agreed that “there is no valid scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed.”

    I’d be curious to know how the APO would reconcile their statement that “sexual orientation CANNOT (emphasis mine) be changed through therapy or through voluntary commitment”, with the many people who would testify that they HAVE left a life of homosexuality for one of heterosexuality. It would seem to call those people liars, wouldn’t it? And although the APO may have said that, the Bible – an authority that I would most certainly place above the APO, although you and others may not – has said different.

    I am not saying I believe homosexuality is purely genetic. I don’t think there is enough evidence to say this and I really don’t believe it either. I think that it is partly controlled by pre-natal hormones, and also by our childhood development.

    One’s outlook on this – such as yours or mine – is based upon their theories on whether something “causes” it or whether it is a conscious “choice”. We believe differently, therefore we approach it from 2 different outlooks, which can’t be reconciled. We have to agree to disagree.

    Ultimately to compare sexual orientation (the ‘wrong’ ones, I mean, like gay and bi) to murder, rape, theft, or lying is appalling. Yes, people choose to do these wrong things, often consciously, and often under mental duress. But homsexuals do not chose their sexual orientation. I wonder, why would God set up a system whereby he purposefully created a given percentage (5% or whatever our supposed number is) with a lifestyle which he deemed ’sinful’. Doesn’t seem too loving (or logical) to me.

    Amazing isn’t it, how my reply above holds true to this paragraph, as well? See, you’re approaching it automatically from a certainty of your position (“homosexuals do not choose”, “God…purposefully created…a lifestyle which He deemed sinful”). I am too, just from a different certainty (that it is a conscious choice people make). From your viewpoint, yes, you would think this is a harsh statement. From mine, it’s no different than any other sin. No better or worse, b/c sin is sin in God’s eyes. Again, we’ll have to agree to disagree – I’m just giving you the basis for my belief.

    I just want to add that we have observed homosexual behavior in well over 100 animal species. I wonder, are they just living in sin as well?

    Irrelevant to the question at hand. Animals don’t “sin”, like people do. Feel free to make any comparisons you wish, but I find this completely irrelevant.

    Again, I’m not saying there often aren’t circumstances that lead people to be more susceptible to this type of sin (homosexuality). Difficult home lives, lack of fathers in the home, sexual trauma at an early age, etc… There are as many statistics to back this up as causes for homosexuality as there are statistics that you believe back up your side. I’m just saying that at the end of the day, the choice is still up to us. It’s not decided for us.

  10. Brad said

    So Brad, when did you “choose” to be straight?

    When I “chose” to be what God created me – a male with feelings for the opposite sex. And I haven’t fought against that.

    Was Rev. Haggard not available for this interview?

    I don’t know if he was or not – would it matter?

  11. Willie said

    When I “chose” to be what God created me – a male with feelings for the opposite sex.

    So God created you with feelings for the opposite sex. You didn’t choose to be straight.

  12. Brad said

    So God created you with feelings for the opposite sex. You didn’t choose to be straight.

    Nobody “chooses” to be straight, Willie – God creates everyone that way from the beginning.

    People “choose” to go against that creation, and “choose” to be homosexual. That is sin.

  13. Fred said

    “People “choose” to go against that creation, and “choose” to be homosexual. That is sin.” – Brad

    This answer has more to do with rationalizing one’s religious beliefs than trying to understand humanity.

    Brad is being Sneetchy! Thats why we love him!

  14. Willie said

    So you’re saying that homosexuals are attracted to women, they choose to be with men. Cause they’re crafty that way.

  15. Brad said

    At this point, Willie and Fred, I’ll stop any further discussion, b/c clearly you don’t take it seriously.

    Thanks.

  16. Willie said

    No one is being silly. I’m just trying to parse your logic. You said
    God makes everyone hetero. So that means gays are created with an attraction to women, but they choose not to be attracted to women for some strange reason. It doesn’t make sense. It’s like saying that even though I hate spinach I’m going to eat it anyway, just to spite God.

  17. Fred said

    Brad, as Willie and I have pointed out, your position is illogical.

    I think what is clear is that we don’t agree with your fundamentalist agenda.

  18. Piper said

    To be gay and christian is the wrong question. We all have come from some where and have lived in sin at one time. Once we have recieved the free gift of salvation the holy spirit will convict us of the sin in our lives. This is part of the growing as a christian. The bible is very clear that this is a sin in Gods eyes. 1st Cor. chapter 6 is very clear that no homosexuals among others will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Any one who is true christian(not a false convert) will be with out question brought under conviction. It is a sin in the eyes of God and the same as any other sin will not be overlooked on judgment day, unless you are born again, repented and but your faith in Christ. One more thing read Romans chapter 6 and tell me that you can willingly countinue to live in sin and be a (true) christian.

  19. Darin said

    This thread has turned into the same old tired argument of whether or not God creates some people gay or did they choose to become gay.

    God created the first man and woman perfect. They were not gay. However, after sinning everyone of their offspring (all of us) have been born imperfect. Some are born missing limbs. Did God create them that way? NO! God didnt intend for anyone to be born with no arms, or blind, or deaf. These are called imperfections and are NOT what God intended for humankind to be born with and contend with.

    So, are gay people BORN gay in imperfection, or do they CHOOSE to be gay? Answer: I dont know. I think at least in some cases where a young child is subjected to a certain environment or is the subject of sexual abuse it could certainly affect what causes him/her to be sexually aroused and thus attracted to the same sex. Others, Im not so sure. Some seem to have been raised in a perfectly normal household but grow up with an attraction to the same sex.

    In either case however, there is no permission for a christian to freely break God’s law. God’s command on the matter is simple, black & white. There is no wiggle room. It is forbidden the same as pre-marital sex.

    There are more who claim to be christian who break God’s law on pre-marital sex than there are who claim to be christian and practice homosexuality. Which are the christians? Neither. Christians identify whether they are true or false christians by their actions. So if a religion or a churchs says, “We are christians, come worship God with us.”, but are allowing members to have pre-marital sex and homosexual sex, move on. They are not true christians.

  20. Chris C. said

    Darin:

    Well put. I understand your side of the argument completely. That said, I wholly disagree on ground that are probably irreconcilable.

    Once question though. You say that practicing homosexuals are not christians just as those who break god’s law on premarital sex are not christians. Im curious how you draw the line between ‘stumbling in sin’ and being able to say someone just ‘isnt a christian’ in the first place. Or do TRUE christians never fall into sin?

  21. Willie Willie said

    Did God create them that way? NO! God didnt intend for anyone to be born with no arms, or blind, or deaf. These are called imperfections and are NOT what God intended

    So you’re saying that God doesn’t really shape or affect a child’s birth, is that correct? It’s just a result of random chance if we have a birth defect or not?

  22. Darin said

    Chris C.,

    Any act of fornication, whether it be pre-marital sex, homosexual sex, adultery, ect.. is reconcilable if the sinner is repentant. To repent is to truly feel regret over the offense and to TURN AROUND from the wrong conduct. I myself in my youth allowed myself to give in to wrong desire and committed fornication with my fiance. We repented, confessed the sin, received encouraging counsel, and are sure God forgave us through Christ’s blood. We made sure not to put ourselves in that situation again so that the remainder of our courtship was clean and moral.

    I work with a young man in his 30s that professes to be a Christian. He has been engaged for several years to a young woman. They dont live together but they often spend the night together and regularly have sex. They go to church together every Sunday at one of the big megachurches here in the Dallas area. I asked him one day if he thinks God forgives him each time they have pre-marital sex. He said, “Yes, God knows we’re sinners and we pray together at church and ask for forgiveness.”

    This is what churches are teaching people these days. You can sin freely because God forgives freely. Such a shame.

  23. Mike S said

    No Chris, I don’t think he is saying that true Christians never fall. He is saying that if a religion or a church says it’s ok, then the religion nor the church is Christian. Yes all Christians fall. Some more and some less than others.

  24. Candace said

    I agree with Darin completely.

    A persons attitude is the difference between “stumbling in sin” and nt being a “true christian”. Matthew 5 says, “It was said, ‘Do not murder’… but I tell you…do not hate.” “It was said…’Do not commit adultery’, but I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman(or man) with lust in his(or her) heart is guilty.” Our actions are defined by our attitudes, and our attitudes are judged by God.

    None of us will ever be completely free from sin. If we have truely repented of our sin and put our faith in God then we should hate our sinful selves and always strive to be one with God. If we make excuses for our sin, or say that our sinful natures are good and natural, then we are not repentant and become like all the false teachers that the bible talks about, and God is not in us.

    We as christians are called to love everyone. To say “It’s OK God made you that way.”, is to tell people, “Live in your sin, I don’t care enough about you to want you redeemed”(which would mean that God also isn’t in us). On judgment day they(or we) will call out “Lord, Lord” and God will say “I never knew you. Get away from me you wicked people.” (Matthew 7:21-23) This applies to all sin, from murder to gossip.

  25. Piper said

    Hey Willie, On your comment about the chances on being born with defects. Because we live in a fallen world we are not exempt from the results of this nature. This not the same as choosing or not choosing to live in sin or not. We live in the world were the devil is still trying to lead us away from God. He’s not stupid and he knows our weekness, and were we tend to struggal. He is the father of lies and deception. If he can make you or I question the Bible that is all he wants and then he can incert his ideas as to what is right wrong and then can lead us away from what is true. If we are not grounded in the Bible we can easly be mislead and corrupted.

  26. Willie Willie said

    I didn’t ask about the Bible. I asked for Darin to clarify his statement.
    .

  27. F. L. A. said

    WHEW!
    I SURE AM GLAD THAT WE DON’T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS NONSENSE IN PAGANISM.

  28. Darin said

    Willie Willie said: So you’re saying that God doesn’t really shape or affect a child’s birth, is that correct? It’s just a result of random chance if we have a birth defect or not?

    ————————————————————–

    Correct. Birth defects are not purposed on a poor innocent child by God. They are a result of inherited sin from Adam. Dont blame God that your child was born with some terrible disease or defect. Blame Adam and ultimately Satan.

  29. Willie Willie said

    So when a child is born healthy there is no real reason to thank God then, since He has nothing to do with it.

  30. John said

    And thank goodness that we don’t have to put up with THAT either!
    It’s difficult to think of a Deity that would promote the practice of afflicting the unborn with birth defects due to the sin of two ancient ancestors as a “loving Heavenly father”.For God so loved the world…… indeed.[?]I don’t mean to offend the Christians here, but this seems like a most unfair and horrible concept to have it’s origins in a benevolent creator.
    Those where some great points that you gave in post #6 Chris C.
    I couldn’t have said it better myself.The mention of homosexuality in the animal kingdom was an especially good touch,as it helped to make clear that homo or bisexual behavior was not entirely as much a unnatural abomination as most people would seem to think, but remember that such information is judged as completely irrelevant by people like Brad because they don’t think of themselves as a part of the animal kingdom.

  31. Kevin said

    Does any of this matter? It clearly says in the scriptures the OT and the NT that Homosexuality is an abomintion to Yahweh.

    Those who are an abomination to Yahweh will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. What could me more plain?

    So the question should really be, what is more important to you, what to you choose to do for all eternity?

    We all make our choice, eternal life or death, this is the choice Yahweh gives us.

  32. Chris C. said

    Piper, congrats, you are a model fundamentalist. I imagine this should be a compliment to you. Read Matthew 7:7 — I know there are hundreds of ways of interpreting the Bible, but this passage seems to indicate that the more you search, the more you should find god’s truth revealed. Questioning your beliefs isnt a tool of the devil, its called “free-thought”.

  33. Darin said

    Willie Willie Says:
    February 13, 2008 at 9:09 pm
    So when a child is born healthy there is no real reason to thank God then, since He has nothing to do with it.
    —————————–

    The ability to procreate is a miracle given to us by God. Why would we not thank God for such a wonderful gift?

  34. Willie said

    I’m not asking about the ability to procreate. I’m asking about the birth of health baby as opposed to a messed up one.

  35. Brad said

    It really all comes down to whether you think homosexuality is a sin, which further goes back to your views on the Bible, which ultimately go back to your view of God.

    Those with differing views on God, will have different views of the Bible, and therefore different views about sin, and therefore different views on homosexuality.

    To bridge that gap, you really have to get to the core of the issue – belief about God. And until one is ready to honestly discuss that – not in a joking or sarcastic manner, and not with a pre-disposed belief that what they think is correct – then you’ll never be able to get to the place where agreement on this topic is reached, unfortunately.

  36. Brand Willie said

    until one is ready to honestly discuss that…not with a pre-disposed belief that what they think is correct

    So I take it you don’t have a pre-disposed belief that what you think is correct?

  37. Brad said

    Since I’ve studied what I believe for many years, and have proven it out in my head (not that faith wasn’t enough for me, but it is also nice to have evidence of it to be able to discuss with others), and know that the evidence is there to support what I believe, then yes, I am “pre-disposed” to believe that what I believe is correct. Had I been “pre-disposed” before I truly investigated it, then that would have been an error on my part. As it is, my belief now is probably better characterized by saying it has been “researched and verified”, rather than “pre-disposed.”

    But Willie, I’ll be honest with you – I don’t know what your objections are to the Christian faith, but if they’re volitional in nature, meaning you won’t believe it b/c you don’t want to believe it, then nothing in the world will convince you, and there’s not a thing I can do about that.

  38. Willie said

    I’ve studied what I believe for many years, and have proven it out in my head (not that faith wasn’t enough for me, but it is also nice to have evidence of it to be able to discuss with others), and know that the evidence is there to support what I believe,

    yeah, but other people have done the same thing and come to different conclusions after they “proved it out” in their heads. You still admit that you started from a pre-disposed belief and then went out and found evidence to confirm your belief. That’s not hard to do.

  39. Brad said

    Like I said, Willie, you don’t WANT to believe it is, or could be, true, therefore you are bent to not even listen. There’s no point in arguing with one of such a mindset.

    Good luck in your future.

  40. Willie said

    No. You’re wrong. I do want to believe. Why would anyone not want to believe? That’s absurd. Belief is easy. It makes sense of life and death. It gives you a ready-made philosophy to live by. It’s skepticism and Un-Belief that takes courage and work.

  41. Brad said

    All evidence to the contrary, Willie. If that’s TRULY how you feel, then you’d never know it.

  42. Piper said

    Chris C.
    To your comments in post#32. if you read on a few more verses you will see what is meant by Mathew 7:7. And there are not “hundreds” of interpitations of the Bible. Everything needs to be read in context to what the writer is saying. Other wise we can end up with a real dogs breakfast when interpiting scripture. It is a good idea to read a chapter before and after to get what is going on. As far as questoning your beliefs the Bible tells us to make our calling and election sure. Are we in line with scripture. Are we growing in Holiness. Is Jesus presious to us. This is important and also alows God to bring us back if we are out of line. Free thinking can be dangerous if it leads to our own interpitation.

  43. Darin said

    Im done Willie. If you want to blame God for disease, deformities, sickness, etc… that’s your choice. Many many people choose to do the same.

    For any that choose to look into God’s word however, they will find that blame for the mess we’re in is not God’s. He created man with perfect minds and bodies and put them in a perfect home. They had a choice to remain obedient and live forever, extending the boundaries of Eden until the whole earth was a paradise populated by their perfect human family – or – what they chose and what we live with today. The bible also shows what steps God took to remove sin from those who want to worship and obey God and eventually restore the earth to that beautiful paradise and have his original purpose fulfilled. God never fails. To not fulfill his original purpose would be a failure for God and a triumph for Satan.

  44. F. L. A. said

    AS I SAID IN POST #27……..

  45. W Willie said

    Im done Willie. If you want to blame God for disease, deformities, sickness, etc… that’s your choice.

    I’m not blaming God for anything. I just asked a simple question and you are refusing to answer it.

  46. Brad said

    When a child is born healthy, there is every reason to thank God, for He has given you the child that He wanted you to have, according to His will.

    When a child is born unhealthy, there is still every reason to thank God, for He has given you the child that He wanted you to have, according to His will. I hope an unhealthy child is not viewed as “unwanted”, “mistaken” or “deformed” – they are still a child with a soul, same as any healthy child. Often times, we find the reason WHY we might have such a child, and often times it can be to draw us closer to God, to learn to rely on HIM for strength, rather than ourselves. God does everything to draw us closer to Him, so we worship Him.

  47. Willie Willie said

    Brad- I was asking Darin. Your theology is different than his.

  48. Brad said

    Willie – I agree with everything Darin has written so far. While we haven’t discussed “theology” proper, don’t be so sure our views vary.

  49. Willie said

    Darin says:

    Correct. Birth defects are not purposed on a poor innocent child by God.

    Brad retorts:

    When a child is born unhealthy, there is still every reason to thank God, for He has given you the child that He wanted you to have, according to His will

    So which is it kids?

  50. Ivy said

    The topic is an odd – and misleading – question. Can one be gay and Christian? I would say the answer is, “it depends”. If that person is a practicing homosexual that does not repent of his/her sin and instead justifies it – in one way or another – then that person may not be a Christian. Anyone having sex outside of marriage is sinning – are unmarried sexually active heteros Christians?

    First off, if a homosexual is claiming to be Christian, we in the body should hold them accountable to their walk (in love). If this person has homosexual desires and urges – that is not sin, as long as he or she does not fall. Jesus Himself was tempted on all points, as the Bible says, and yet was without sin. Sin comes from action. And not just physical tangible action, but our thought life can be sinful as well (if anyone looks at a woman/man with lust in their heart, they have committed adultery)

    This question is hard because it does not recognize the truly human and therefore fallen state that exists in us all. Just like a liar, a thief, or a gossiper can become a Christian, someone who is gay can become a Christian. Question is, does that label “gay” imply homosexual activity or does it just refer to a past life/inherent urge that the person must fight against?

  51. JT said

    I think Ivy makes a good point. There is a distinction between an individual’s homosexual acts and the broader question of Christianity as a belief system vs. The Gay Lifestyle. As a system of belief Christianity is opposed to the gay lifestyle, does not think it is moral, and does not believe it is something to be condoned or celebrated.

    I think there is good evidence that homosexual orientation in an individual’s life is a matter of early conditioning or abuse. I heard a physchologist, working exclusively with the male gay community for fifteen years, say he did not see one case of homosexuality (out of over six thousand) that was not the result of an absentee father and/or an overbearing mother figure.

    Male homosexuality, according to Dr. Dobson, is conditioned by young males not bonding with their father figure during a crucial period (ususally between 18-24 months) either because this figure is physically/emotionally absent or the mother figure interupts this natural process. Female homosexuality is usually the result of abuse.

    So, clinically speaking, if homosexual orientation is conditioned by early childhood experiences that the child obviously has no control over, then it is not the result of choice; although it is also not grounded in a genetic cause. So it is not the case that the homosexual was “born that way,” but niether is it the case that they “choose to act that way,” as if they are selecting sexual orientation like an item in a store.

    My wife has a close cousin who recently “came out” to the family. This prompted a discussion between us about whether or not he was a Christian (although he is a really nice guy). My response was that his problem is not his homosexuality, his problem is that he does not have a close enough relationship with the Lord to choose Him over what seem to be natural sexual urges.

    The reason God commands against homosexuality is that the lifestyle is not good for the homosexual. If the above clinical description is true, which is a live possibility, then acts of homosexuality are merely indicators that an individual has unresolved issues regarding very early relationships. If this is the case, then merely condoning or embracing that individual’s activity is not an act of love but of apathy. It does not say, “I want to take you back to the origins of your wounds and heal you,” rather it says, “do what you want” even if it leaves traumatic experiences unresolved and leads to the individual’s emotional, psychological, and ultimately spiritual destruction. God offers the homosexual the same thing he offers all of us, to take us through the pain of our past so that we might be healed and live a life that is healthy, rich, and full.

    Jesus still offers, “Come to me all you who are weary and heavily burdened. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

  52. Mike S said

    Ivy & JT
    You guys are on a roll. Great posts!

    Until we “Christians” understand this truth “his problem is not his homosexuality, his problem is that he does not have a close enough relationship with the Lord to choose Him over what seem to be natural sexual urges.” I think that we can have a tendency to be cold and indifferent to them.

    My next door neighbor is a lesbian (doctor) with multiple partners. She agrees that her lifestyle is sinful, yet she just “is not ready”. My wife and I connect and show our love to her as often as possible. We pray that she will soon come to the “end of herself” very soon and desire a relationship with Christ.

  53. Willie said

    Still waiting.

  54. Christy said

    Why is it that most people in society will see a man or women who cheats on his or her wife or husband and say that it is wrong. Even many people who are not Christians will agree with that, but many of these same people will justify being gay. They are both sins. Also, do you “who do not think it is wrong to be gay” think it is ok for homosexuals to have multiple partners or is only ok if they are in a monogamous relationship.

  55. Christy said

    Sorry about my lack of question marks. Should have proofed it a little better.

  56. Mike S said

    Willie, if you are really interested in a reasonable answer that the Christian Worldview has to offer…

    Although the grammar that Brad and Darin used appears contradictory, I can offer an answer that I think both of them will agree with.

    You asked “So which is it kids?” It is both.

    The Christian Worldview explains it this way: We live in a fallen and broken world due to the first family’s fall to sin by their own free will choice that God gives to all. As a result of this fall, our world is breaking down. (not macro evolving) Much to the contrary to some, we embrace and celebrate responsible science, as it serves to prove God and His creation. (ie; laws of thermodynamics, etc)

    While God could, and sometimes does, prevent this cycle of breaking down (which is manifested in diseases, birth defects, etc., and even animals attacking humans) it is His purpose to allow the continual consequences of mankind’s sinful choices to manifest themselves until a point and time He chooses to intervene once again.

    So what Darin means is that birth defects are not caused by God. Rather they are caused by the manifestation of cumulative sins of mankind’s free will choices. God simply allows the consequences of such sins to cumulate to their ultimate conclusion.

    However, He also promises His Children that He will “work all things together for good to those who love Him and are called according to His purposes”. So what Brad says is true as well. We believe in a sovereign God. That although He is in control and could change any of these consequences, He chooses rather to show his love and His mercy by bringing peace and comfort to His children who suffer. He is one who can sympathize with our suffering because He experienced ultimate suffering for Himself on the cross. His purposes and sovereign will is achieved in spite of Satan and this sinful and fallen world.

    Do you see that there really isn’t a contradiction here?

  57. Willie said

    I’d really like to hear from Darin and Brad on this, but since you took the time to write a reply, I just have to say no, you I don’t see that you’ve resolved the contradiction.

    So what Darin means is that birth defects are not caused by God. Rather they are caused by the manifestation of cumulative sins of mankind’s free will choices.

    I’m not asking about birth defects in general, I’m asking about THIS SPECIFIC BABY’S missing arms. When I asked Darin he says it’s just random chance that a particular baby has birth defects. Brad says no, it’s God’s will. You can’t have it both ways just by saying “it’s both ways.”

  58. Mike S said

    Darin did not say it was random chance but that it was the cause of the fall. I will let him speak for himself from here on though.

  59. Willie Willie said

    Mike-

    I asked Darin:

    It’s just a result of random chance if we have a birth defect or not?

    Darin replied:

    Correct.

    And then you said:

    Darin did not say it was random chance

    Do you even know what you’re talking about?

  60. Mike S said

    Yes, I do, I am saying that you are putting words in Darin’s mouth. Pretty clear.

  61. Chris C. said

    I think what Darin meant was that because of sin all of us must live in the fallen world. Sometimes this manifests itself in negative ways, such as birth defects. Doesn’t mean God picks out babies to screw-over, he just lets Mendel’s laws of segregation and independant assortment work their magic. Therefore, when babies are born deformed, don’t blame God, ask him what his will is in the situation going foward.

    What do I know, I’m just an atheist.

  62. Mike S said

    And by the way “the manifestation of cumulative sins of mankind’s free will choices.” could easily be confused with or referred to as “chance”. But let’s stop the antagonism ok?

  63. Mike S said

    That’s good theology Chris.

  64. Mike S said

    Deep down, you’re not REALLY an atheist are you? 🙂

  65. Willie said

    So we are in agreement that when a child is born healthy or messed up that it’s just a random event with no intervention from the hand of God.

  66. Chris C. said

    Despite your hopeful smile, yes, I am. Doesn’t mean I forgot all the theodicy junk I learned.

  67. Mike S said

    Willie
    Now you’re trying to put words in MY mouth huh?

    “Random” no if you mean by “chance” as there is no such thing as “chance” from a Christian worldview perspective. “no intervention from God”, yes, He allows it to occur as explained earlier, but sometimes He may choose to intervene. He IS God you know.

  68. Willie said

    He allows it to occur as explained earlier,

    So he just watches it happen mainly. He doesn’t make a baby either healthy or sick. It just happens according to the laws of probability and medical genetics, etc.

  69. Brad said

    Willie,

    I agree with what Mike said, and it explains perfectly the apparent “contradiction” you see in my and Darin’s words. In actuality, there is no contradiction at all.

    But do I expect you to believe that? No – b/c you don’t want to, Willie, you’d rather argue. Your loss.

  70. JT said

    Willie says: “So he just watches it happen mainly. He doesn’t make a baby either healthy or sick. It just happens according to the laws of probability and medical genetics, etc.”

    Like many other things in the natural universe God usually allows things to proceed according to natural laws (physics, chemistry, and biology) although He certainly has the power to supercede these laws (as in miracles).
    Why does God, who is the ultimate author of all life, allow some children to be born with birth defects and others to be born healthy? I don’t know but I think it pertinent to mention that He loves them, whether they live only a few days or live a life filled with challenges most of us never have to face.

    Ultimately this question is only resolved in the human heart that finds God trustworthy on other grounds and so is willing to allow that He is still good and loving, even in the face of our ignorance. This is what separates the Christian from the atheist/skeptic. The Christian, in the face of ignorance, chooses to trust God. The atheist/skeptic has no other relationship with God and so, in the face of the identical ignorance, uses these examples to continue in their state of disbelief. But there is the possibility that God does have reasons for allowing these and similar states of affairs to obtain, the Christian trusts that He does the atheist doubts that He does.

    The question usually arises: What possible good reason can God have for allowing such things? Here many Christians strive to point to valid possibilities as to why these events aren’t really that bad, or some such, but this is a mistake. The answer to the problem of evil is existential and practical, not speculative and theoretical. The question is answered by experiencing a Good and Loving God. Since it is just this experience that separates the atheist/skeptic from the Christian (as far as experiences and background knowledge influence our approach to such questions), there can never be any existential/pratical common ground to which they both refer and which establishes a common viewpoint on the issue.

    I am not exactly sure how all of this bears on the original question of homosexuality (since I doubt that sexual orientation is any form of birth defect), but the journey into theodicy has been interesting.

  71. Willie said

    I’ve heard lots of answers here to questions I haven’t asked. Maybe I’m not making my question clear enough. I’ll restate it: In this sinful, fallen world there will be some children born with birth defects. Does God decide which get them and which don’t? Yes or no please.

  72. JT said

    The problem, Willie, is not that Christian theology does not have an answer to the question. The problem is that the question is complex and you assume the answer will be a simple yes or no, this assumption is false.

    Does God decide who will be born with a birth defect?

    Yes, as the ultimate ontological ground of all being and primary cause of life, no child with a birth defect would be born apart from God’s active will. (this takes the question in its general form and answers the question of origin, in as much as God is the origin of all births, then he is also the cause for these specific births)

    Does God decide who will be born with a birth defect?

    No, for the individual born with a birth defect the proximate cause of that defect is not a malicious, meddling God but the exigencies of genetics and biological reproduction. (this focuses on the action of “deciding” in the question)

    Does God decide who will be born with a birth defect?

    In light of the above two responses (which cover ultimate origins and proximate causes), it is more appropriate to say that God ‘knows’ who will be born with a birth defect and ‘allows’ it, rather than “decides” (which implies that God is actively causing the defect).

    God actively causes the life (as its origin); passively allows the defect (according to natural laws); and loves the person (the important end of the process is the child, not ‘defective child’).

    So rather than a simple Yes or No, the answer(s) to you question are: Yes, No, and the question is poorly worded.

  73. Willie said

    it is more appropriate to say that God ‘knows’ who will be born with a birth defect and ‘allows’ it, rather than “decides” (which implies that God is actively causing the defect).

    thanks. that’s what I wanted to know.
    So as a corollary to that- would you also say that God doesn’t kill babies either, or cause them to be stillborn?

  74. John said

    For what my opinion is worth, I thought that sounded rather well, JT.
    I hate “simple” yes or no answers.

  75. JT said

    Willie,
    God is in control of all life, if a child dies in the womb, it is because He has allowed it and not chosen to interfere; so yes God is responsible for the death stillborn. Does God kill babies? No, I think there are some strong prohibitions in the Bible against infanticide. And there is a difference between a stillborn child and one who is killed. The death of the stillborn lies at God’s feet; the child’s life and death are in God’s hands and in these matters He keeps His own counsel.

    John,
    Thanks.

  76. Chris C. said

    “No, I think there are some strong prohibitions in the Bible against infanticide.”

    So, what do you call God killing the first-born son of every family in Egypt?

    Also, it is a fact that nearly 50% of all pregnancies end in almost instant abortion. In other words, within the first couple days, the blastocyst just fails to grow and it is passed out of the body. If all life comes from god, would we not then be forced to say that god is the most prolific abortionist of all time?

  77. John said

    You are welcome, JT, although in all fairness, the bible does have some accounts of God sanctioned infanticide.The incidents that readily come to my mind are all in the Old Testament. Like before the Jewish Exodus when God had an Angel of Death murder all of the Egyptian first born.And then later the war tribes of Moses killing all of the women of conquered tribes that had “known a man”.Surely some of those women were pregnant at the time. Also, let us not forget the story of THE FLOOD, when everyone in the whole world[but Moses and his little group of humanity] was drowned.Everyone. And there may be other accounts, I’d have to check to be sure though.
    Unless I’ve misunderstood the biblical accounts.

  78. Willie said

    Actually, the Bible is pretty strongly pro-infanticide.
    “And we utterly destroyed them, … utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.” Deuteronomy 3:6

    “Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” Psalm 137:9

    Or just ask King David.

    So God does kill babies sometimes to punish people.

  79. John said

    The innocent and weak always get taken first it seems, for they are the easiest victims, in all things.

  80. Anonymous said

    Good call guys, I guess I was thinking of the difference between stillbirths and abortions (natural deaths vs. human initiated abortions). In Ezekiel the Lord says that it is wicked for the Israelites to sacrafice their children to Molech; but yes God does punish societies (Egyptians, Moabites, etc.) with complete destruction including the death of the young. There is still a difference between God taking a human life and a human taking a human life. Life is a temporary gift given by God and can be taken away at His will, so God, unlike a human, could never rightly be called a murderer. This may sound like hair-splitting but the Bible never establishes the death of infants as a societal good; God may sanction the complete destruction of a people group or (like in Egypt) the death of the first-born, both of which include the death of infants, but this does not mean that a society modeling Judeo-Christian values must have, as one of those values, the death of infants and children.

    Just making the point that it does not follow from the biblical accounts that Christianty therefore supports abortion.

    [minor point John, its Noah and his little band in the flood, but the point remains valid :)]

    Chris C. “If all life comes from god, would we not then be forced to say that god is the most prolific abortionist of all time?”
    This is a clear equivocation of “abortionist” and amounts to provocative rhetoric. This has been an interesting discussion thusfar carried on with openness and respectful disagreement; let’s not spoil the party gents.

    If the question was meant sincerely, then I would say that, given the above, the use of ‘abortionist’ as applied to God is an equivocation.

  81. JT said

    The above comment was mine, forgot ‘me llamo’

  82. kwesi said

    If I say that a person can be gay and Christian is like saying that it would have been okay for Christ to be a sinner yet die for the sins of the world; it’s not possible. The purpose of humanity on earth is to show sinners what God is like. Christ was God in flesh, dwelled among us, and therefore became the paragon by which all that believe in God should follow. Could Christ have been gay and took away the sins of the world? The answer is no. The law required a sacrifice that was without blemish. Sin has caused the existence of foul and ungodly uses of the body. We were not created for physical pleasure, but it was created for us. The rider to those pleasures is “be fruitful and multiply.” Here in lies the problem with homosexual unions; it is impossible. We can not lose site of our purpose. We are to show the world Christ, which is compassion, love, longsuffering, the fruit of the spirit. That same love that Christ had was expressed when he called people vipers and sons of the devil. The truth is apart of the believer’s compassion. I love everyone, but I know that situations where people are molested is no free pass into a homosexual lifestyle.

    Shalom

  83. John said

    Thank you, JT. I did know that, but my hands were still thinking about Moses instead of Noah[smile].Thankyou for the insight.

  84. Christy said

    There is a difference in natural death and abortion. All life ends just like all life begins. God can decide to do all of these things that you atheist are discussing because he is God. An abortion doctor is not. Who gives someone the right to think they can decide when to end a life.

  85. John said

    Some of us give ourselves the right, Christy.
    Some of us cannot survive without taking lives. Not everything or everyone can die “naturally”, all the time.The universe doesn’t work that way.

  86. Maz Herman said

    Question: If you knew what Hitler would do in the Second World war to 6,000,000 Jews would you have wished he’d died at birth? And what about Bin Laden? Or the Yorkshire Ripper? Or the London bombers? God sees what we can’t. I don’t understand why some things happen but I trust God knows what He is doing.

  87. Maz Herman said

    Oh and by the way…NO…according to Romans 1v 26,27 and in the Levitical law, you CANNOT be gay and a Christian. Read it for yourself….it’s UNNATURAL.

  88. Chris C. said

    Christy, I just want to make sure I’m clear here. You’re saying that when a doctor aborts a baby, its bad. BUT, if God does it (maybe even…a hundred million times a year) thats okay because he’s God.

    If that’s your logic then okay. I just hope such a malevolent creature doesn’t exist.

    BTW, Maz. Welcome aboard. If you’ll notice a few posts up I pointed out that homosexuality is, in fact, very normal. It is observed in over a hundred species of animals, including humans.

  89. Maz Herman said

    Chris, if you are a Christian you ought to read your Bible…..I didn’t say it was unnatural…..the Bible did! If not then you probably won’t believe it anyway.

  90. Chris C. said

    No actually I am an atheist. And so I would say that yes, like on many other moral questions, the bible is just wrong. But this is understandable as it was written by men several thousand years ago who had no access to modern scientific studies.

  91. Maz Herman said

    How about in Job where it says that ”the earth was hung upon nothing”, did the writer have access to mdern scientific studies?
    Or where the Bible speaks of ”stretching out the Heavens”, did the writer know about Hubbles expansion? Or the earth spoken of as being circular?
    The Bible has many things written in it that were written before modern science and yet are very accurate.
    Chris, have you ever read the Bible?

  92. John said

    Actually Mr. Herman, the Bible makes more references to the earth as being flat, although ANY sailor, even before biblical times, could have told you that the world was rounded, because as a ship sails either to or from the horizon the first or last thing to be seen is the tippy top of the ships mast.
    And since when are HUMANS natural? Compared to what? The majority of natural bisexual animal life?

  93. Chris C. said

    Humans are animals, apes in fact. We just happen to have evolved cognitive intelligence.

    Maz:
    David Hume once said: “No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.”

    In other words, a few phrases from the bible that are very vague do no constitute divine knoweldge. Nostradamus also made lots of vague statements. Gullible people have found ways to bend his words to fit later events and thus prove his prophecies. “Stretching out the Heavens,” really doesn’t have anyastronomicl significance. I mean, if the bible said something about exact distances between stars, etc., that would be a bit more convincing. But of course at the time, people thought the stars were just fixed points of light on a sphere around the earth.

    Yes, I have read the bible. Perhaps not word-for-word stright through. But I know my stuff. Did more churchy stuff and apologetics training than most christians do.

  94. Willie said

    Perhaps not word-for-word stright through.

    I’ve read it all. You’re not missing anything. The only thing people miss sometimes is how unbelievably funny it is. Gotta be one of the funniest books of all time. Garden, fearful God(s), talking snake. Absolutely hilarious.

  95. Maz Herman said

    Maybe John could quot the Bible to substantiate his flat-earth stance?
    And I’m not a man!

  96. Maz Herman said

    Chris. I have read the Bible through several times, studied it etc. I know what it SAYS not what I think it says. ”Churchy” stuff? What’s that?

  97. John said

    Sorry for the wrong label, uh,…Mrs.Herman[?].
    Are you serious about wanting those Bible verses?
    I’d have thought that someone who had studied the Bible would have known about them. Let me know for sure, and if so then I will supply you with those Quotes a.s.p.

  98. Chris C. said

    “Churchy Stuff” (noun): The stuff most christians, especially American evangelicals do to make themselves feel like they’re are getting something out of their religion. This may include prayer meetings, wednesday night services, sunday school gatherings, sunday morning worship, etc.

    Theologically, I know this doesn’t make one a Christian (at least not in the eyes of most believers) but it sure does allow you to learn about the christian faith.

    Im going to quote my friend Educated Dawg here and say, “we both have the same scriptures, only we interpret them differently because of our worldviews.” I’m sure that you have your idea of what each verse of the bible says, whether it is literal, figurative, etc. Perhaps you are a premillenial dispensationalist, perhaps postmillenial. It doesn’t matter to me. The bible is like any book: it means many things to many people and can be interpreted many ways. Again, “stretching out the heavens” could mean any number of things. It certainly does not constitute any real proof of divinity.

  99. Maz Herman said

    Chris, ”Churchy stuff” is not true Christianity, which is living for Jesus and having HIM live in and through your life. To be honest I can’t stand ”Churchy stuff” I want to know Jesus more and more each day and I thank God I have a Church where God is able to do what HE wants to do when HE wants to do it.
    The Bible is a LIVING book. It’s like no other, it is the Word of life for all Christians.
    It’s our spiritual FOOD. To live the Christian life to the full we need to FEED on it daily.
    And John: I want you to quote those scriptures about a flat earth so that I know that I can look at what you are reading into them.

  100. John said

    As you wish, Mrs.Herman. I will supply you with the information tomorrow, or at least by this weekend.It will take me awhile to read through one of my Bibles to compile them.
    Any particular version of the Bible that you would like me to use, or does it matter?

  101. Educated Dawg said

    John will use stuff like “four corners of the earth” etc.
    Out of context. but he is a Wiccan so I wouldn’t expect anything less. “The natural man receives not the things of God”

  102. Anonymous said

    What North, South, East & West? Pretty simple interpretation.

  103. John said

    Indeed, Educated Dawg, but there are others, better ones.
    It’s interesting that if you offer to use biblical scripture to disagree with some Christians, it’s always denounced as being used “out of context”.One can’t help but wonder just how many darn “context’s” there are to fall into[grin].
    That little crack you made about being Wiccan makes you sound like a bitter child.

  104. John said

    You could have just called me an A..H…, you know[grin].

  105. Chris C. said

    E Dawg,

    To assume that you, your denomination, church, whatever, has eclusive ability to divine the true contect of the bible is a bit dangerous. The intellectual arrogance required to assume that only you can understand the scriptures and that anyone with a different interpretation is wrong is also dangerous. Those who are right, ‘get it’ apparently. Those who disagree are, obviously, ‘not of god’.

    Not that I care if Christianity succeeds as a religion (frankly I wish it wouldn’t). But it will come to an end all the more quickly with divisive assuredness like this. It is normal to have confidence in one’s own opinions. But it is also healthy to have a degree of skepticism and need for inquiry. The moment we think we have everything figured out – that is the moment learning will cease.

  106. F. L. A. said

    EDUCATED DAWG, AS THEOLOGY OF ANY KIND DEPENDS ON FAITH MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, ARGUING OVER RIGHT OR WRONG CONTEXT IN THE BIBLE IS VERY MUCH LIKE ARGUING AND DEBATING ABOUT PHILOSOPHY, AS IT IS JUST VAGUE ENOUGH FOR ALMOST EVERYONE TO INTERPRET ALMOST ANYTHING IN A WAY THAT WILL SUPPORT THEIR LINE OF ARGUMENTATIONS.NO DOUBT YOU MAY FIND THE INFORMATION SUPPLIED BY JOHN TO BE OUT OF CONTEXT[BY YOUR STANDARDS], BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, WE KNOW OF CHRISTIANS THAT WOULD AGREE WITH HIM.IN FACT, TODAY HE IS OUT INTERVIEWING A PASTER ABOUT IT.
    SO THERE.[ETERNAL GRIN]

  107. John said

    Hello again!
    Daniel 4:10-11
    Matthew 4:8
    Revelation 7:1
    Jeremiah 16:19
    Isaiah 11:12
    Job 9:6, 11:9, 28:24, 37:3, 38:4, 38:13, and 38:44

    all imply that the world is flat, has foundations and corners, etc. and other stuff that makes no sense in relation to a sphere shaped world.And then there’s things like the vaulted heaven/”firmament” to help add to the view of a flat world.
    We can go through it bit by bit if you like,and I could offer websites too, if you wish, but not tonight.
    I type very slow and I’m tired.
    Goodnight.

  108. ADB said

    You make a great point there John. Our friendly neighborhood pagan shows more understanding of how to use scriptures at times than some of my fellow Christians. Though, in general, one should take the “plain reading” of the text, that does not mean that the authors did not figures of speech, analogies, metaphors, hyperbole, etc. A strictly literal reading simply isn’t appropriate all the time. Did Jesus really tell people to pluck out their own eyes, of course not. Does the four winds of heaven really mean that the Bible teaches that the earth is square, of course not. This is why the practice of exegesis and related discipline of hermeneutics are important.

  109. John said

    Thank you, ADB.
    My point here wasn’t to try and put people like Mrs.Herman on the spot, really, but to instead try and introduce the idea to those who take Biblical Scripture literally that perhaps they should adopt a slightly agnostic attitude about certain aspects concerning theology.Any theology.The sciences and religious faiths CAN go hand in hand, but only to an extent.After that the believer must simply be prepared to let certain matters drop.Use the sciences[like archeology,for example] to help with the study of theology if one can, but never use a theology to manipulate the sciences.To do so degrades both, and only adds to pointless confusion and hostility with others.

  110. ADB said

    Keep at it John you might make a Christian yet! One can only hope:) You are right about using theology to manipulate the sciences. One of the classic statements from the Reformed side of protestantism is that “all truth is God’s truth.” I think that many people make two mistakes in interpreting scripture. First, because the Roman Catholic Church for many years allegorized nearly everything many people overcompensate and feel like everything must be taken very literally, forgetting that some things should be taken literally, some figuratively, etc. This calls for care and common sense in interpretation. Second, in reaction to folks like Willie, Chris C. etc. many Christians, well intentioned ones probably, try to make the Bible answer questions that it was never meant to answer. Personally I don’t think Genesis was written to be a 10th grade biology text, but was meant to be a theological document ordering all of creation. The great danger of Ken Ham and those like him is that they grossly misuse the Bible and in so doing create a view in which there are only two camps- atheists and folks who believe the earth is 6,000 years old.

  111. John said

    I got off from work early today due to thunderstorms and rain.Thank you ADB. I shall accept that with the graciousness that it was no doubt intended to convey.If I ever became a Christian, then I would be like John Muir probably. I would make a poor Christian. Certainly not the “right kind” of a Christian, or as Educated Dawg put it, a “true believer”.I have heard of “Christian Witches” before, but it sounds like a snow-job contradiction to me, like a “Jewish Hindi”.
    I have a lot of stuff from Ken Ham’s website and a few of their pamphlets and books. It makes for some very fun reading, and I heartily recommend it to those who know better.
    Hopefully Mrs.Herman was satisfied with the collection of Bible verses?
    I keep expecting for someone to quote William Shakespeare’s line from the “Merchant of Venice” “Even the Devil can cite scripture for his purpose.”

  112. John said

    I guess that I’ll take your silence as a “yes”, Mrs.Herman.

  113. Gary said

    The Bible clearly states in 1 Corinthians 6:9, “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God (heaven)? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral….nor homosexual offenders will inherit the Kingdom of God (heaven).

    The Bible clearly leaves no wiggle room. It’s not vague on the issue of sexual sin and more specifically, homosexuality.

    But God doesn’t stop there,…listen: “..nor thieves nor lairs nor adulterers nor blasphemers will enter the Kingdom of God (heaven).

    If you have ever lied, stolen, used God’s name in vain, looked with lust….God sees you as a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. You will not enter heaven. The homosexual will not enter the kingdom of God for reasons that have little to do with their sexual orientation.

    If we honestly examine ourselves in light of God’s standard of “goodness”(The Ten Commandments)AND ALLOW OUR CONSCIENCE TO DO ITS JOB, we see clearly our standing before God. The verdict: “Guilty as Charged!”

    The punishment for violating God’s moral law: …….HELL.

    Does God want to sentence us to this just punishment for our crimes? NO!

    As much as God is righteous,just and holy, He is also loving, compassionate and merciful. Listen to what the Bible says: “God demonstrated HIS LOVE FOR US in this: while we were still sinners Christ died for us (the wicked).”

    2000 years ago, God came to earth in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. Jesus Christ paid the penalty that we rightly deserve. Jesus was the PERFECT man, without sin and yet willingly sacrificed His life so that you could go free!!!

    This work has been completed on behalf of the sin of the whole world. If we will accept this TRUTH and receive His free gift of pardon, God promises to forgive our debt and wipe it away forevermore through the shed blood of Jesus on the Cross.

    What does God require of you? REPENT, TURN FROM YOUR SIN AND TURN TOWARD GOD and PUT YOUR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST TO SAVE YOU ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT (like a man trusts in a parachute to save him. He doesn’t just believe in the parachute, he puts it on). Put on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved!

    Now,…..read your Bible and obey what you read.

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