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Can Atheists disprove the existence of God?

Posted by truthtalklive on February 11, 2008

This is the blog information from Friday 2/8/08

Today Dr. Alex McFarland (www.alexmcfarland.com) President of Southern Evangelical Seminary in Charlotte NC (www.ses.edu) interviews Dr. Phil Fernandes, president of evidence for Biblical Defense in WA. He has a PhD in Religion and Philosophy. His website is www.biblicaldefense.org.

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116 Responses to “Can Atheists disprove the existence of God?”

  1. F. L. A. said


  2. Willie said

    FLA- they are clearly afraid of skeptics and atheists.

  3. Willie said

    Why was my first post deleted? I don’t understand.

  4. Moderator (not Stu) said

    Go ahead and re-post it, Willie. We’re not sure what happened. Keep in mind that we delete any comment that contains profanity or anything that we decide is obscene or unfit for this forum. That includes usernames. We reserve the right to make such decisions.

  5. kevpickup said

    Interesting stuff. Maybe its a denial thing, but athiests seem to be 2 dimensional and i think this can be caused by the suppression of life. I think Faith can be a bold statement which does not always suit the environment that they sit it!

    Life is a journey and not a destination

    (newbie christian)

  6. Fred said

    The question is illogical.

    Can Mr. McFarland disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?


  7. Willie said

    I was saying that we can’t disprove the existence of God any more than we can disprove Thor or Zeus. Also

    Can Athiest disprove

    It’s athEist actually. -2 for spelling.

  8. Chris C. said

    As one of the resident atheists, I would love to throw in my two cents. Can we (I) disprove the existence of god(s)?


    I have networked online with hundreds of skeptics and atheists and do not recall ever hearing a single one claim he ‘knew’ there were no gods. We just think the chances of any existing is quite small based on a lack of evidence. Therefore we retain the valid default position: atheism. That is, until evidence is presented which proves (or highly corroborates) the claims of a religion or deity.

  9. Jack said

    Sooo this mysterious stuff called “dark matter” it penetrates everything and supposedly holds everything together? I bet you’d give that a good chance of being real right? why because some really smart guys say so? Super black holes with gravitation like we can’t measure,particles that travel at 99.9 percent of the speed of light,(funny how they come up with that). You guys will swallow all this without blinking,why? Because these things don’t require you to change you sinful ways. Oh well These things make me see God even more!! What are the odds the only planet with a million different systems that all must work for our existence here and now. I think it takes more faith for you guys to not believe!
    Come on just try it for a while you can argue just as smartly for life as you can for the coldness of a finite nothingness and I’d bet you’re Grandma would be so happy ?

  10. Willie said

    why because some really smart guys say so?

    Yes, that’s how we decide everything. Did a smart guy say so? Well that’s good enough for me.
    Because these things don’t require you to change you sinful ways.
    No, because they are predicted by theory and verified by observation. It’s called science. And I also think it’s incredibly RUDE of you to assume we maintain our beliefs because of our “sinful ways.” You don’t know me, so how about holding off on judging me and my “ways.”

  11. Chris C. said

    It doesn’t take faith not to believe. Non-beleif requires the non-existence of faith. Period.

    Also, hundreds of black holes have been found (and measured, believe it or not!). Dark Matter is still theoretical, but we do know that there must exist something which does not emitt or reflect light but yet acts on observed matter. Why do we know this? Because it is observed by numerous people in numerous places in many tests. Am I an expert on cosmology or astrophysics? Certainly not. But I do understand the philosphical nature of science and evidence and theories. Dispute these theories all you want, but until you can provide a model which somehow BETTER models the universe, science will stick with what we have.

    Religion has predisposed you to see your god in everything in the universe. Rather than objectively examining evidence and determining if, indeed, it would require or even suggest the existence of a god you ASSUME one exists, and then this biases your interpretation of every peice of evidence going foward.

    Please don’t suggest that I am just rejecting a god that I somehow ‘know’ exists, or that I believe good science because it doesn’t make me face my sin. I hope, despite the fact you disagree with my positions, you can see I have thought out my opinions and reasoning in more than just a knee-jerk reaction to fear of ‘changing my sinful ways’.

  12. Chris C. said

    For what it is worth, Willie and I responded at the same time regarding the ‘face our sin’ comment. I guess I just took a minute longer to post mine :).

  13. Brian said

    How do I download the audio? I can’t seem to find a link anywhere… is it only available live?

  14. Moderator (not Stu) said

    Hey Brian – Stu is still working on making the podcasts available online here. It’s taking longer than he had hoped.

  15. Brad said

    Chris C.,

    Have you ever read the book “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist?”, by Norm Geisler and Frank Turek? It’s an interesting read, if you have time.

  16. Chris C. said

    I have heard of it, but not read it. I’ll add it to my reading list.

  17. Willie said

    Here’s a little book larnin’ for you: read “Jesus Is Dead” by Robert M. Price.

  18. Jack said

    The “because some really smart guy said so” commit was made because, as you admitted you believe that. These things can’t be prove unless we send a probe there (yet you believe that). If we send it today it won’t get there until our great grand kids died. But its the “gospel” right? that is until they come up with some other mathematical equation.
    Kinda touched a nerve with the “you’re sinful ways” commit? Me doth think thou protest too much…or something like that ha ha. My point simple is that to “logically” accept all the science and dismiss supernatural leads to an absence of morality.
    As I lay in bed thinking on a cosmic scale, physics has many parts. Phased reality, curved time space, etc. are feasible if Jesus Christ is left out of the argument. The commit about particles being propelled to 99.9 percent of the speed of light stuck me. Didn’t Einstein say that if you could reach the speed of light, time would stand still? The Bible specks of infinite time, and shazzam science concures….

    I’m disappointed no one has taken the bait concerning the “odds” walk out of you’re science class after their God is a myth sermon. And ask the statistics class prof what are the odds given the distances and shear numbers of planets, One planet One , only one if science is you’re measure how do you protect you’re faith given their answer?

  19. Willie said

    Kinda touched a nerve with the “you’re sinful ways” commit?

    Yes, because I thought it was agin’ the rules to attack someone personally here. I guess it only applies when atheists attack Christians.

  20. Chris C. said

    Jack, science is not in the business of proving things. We confirm or falsify hypotheses based on numeros tests and conclusions drawn from evidence. Currently, black holes, dark matter, relativity, etc. are all theories (composed of many hypotheses) which have been confirmed by evidence. We have never sent a prove to the sun, nor has anyone been there. Yet we know its temperture gradient, its composition, and its size. Should these figures be in doubt?

    Morality does not dissapear in the absence of Jesus. Look at the billions of people who have never read the bible or reject it outright as a source of truth. They all share a similar moral code (all humans do). Obviously one can be good without gods.

    I protested your sinful ways comment because it is baseless. You do not know me and, from your responses, do not have a good understanding as to why I hold my beleifs. It would be appropriate for you to not cast judgment on something of which you are wholly ignorant. I am not going to tell you I think you hold your beliefs because you are ignorant. Don’t tell me I hold mine because I like being sinful without remorse.

  21. Psalm 14:1 said

    If an atheist can’t disprove the existence of God, then doesn’t that make them agnostic instead of atheist?

    For those who don’t know:

    atheist says – there is NO God!

    agnostic says – there may be/possibly is a God, but I just don’t care!

    I think that its not a question of whether an atheist can or cannot disprove the existence of a deity. A better question may be “why does the atheist have such a hatred toward the Christian God?”

    I watched the dialogue between Dawkins and Lennox. For the most part it was a good exchange. Right at the end Lennox spoke concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Dawkins became very upset and his countenance definately fell at that moment.

    It’s not just the existence of deity(ies) but specifically the existence of Jesus Christ that puts atheists in an uproar. Why is that?

  22. 2 Kings 2:24 said

    Atheist just means lacking a theology. A-theist.

    It’s not just the existence of deity(ies) but specifically the existence of Jesus Christ that puts atheists in an uproar. Why is that?

    Actually it’s any sort of stupidity and ignorance that upsets us. Christianity is just the most prevalent.

  23. Chris C. said

    The reason so many of us seem vitrioloic in our comments towards Christianity is because the religion gets such a ‘pass’ from people and the government. It is frustrating that a religious institution should receive tax-exempt status on donations while many scientific institutions and organizations do not. It is frustrating that so many people blindly accept their religion (almost always the religion of their parents) and then grow offended when someone questions their beliefs. I know many of you (and many Christians) have investigated history, the bible, and what so-called evidence for Christianity exists. I must say, I am baffled at how you come to your conclusions, but I do have respect for people who at least have reasons for their belief.

    It is frustrating that to attack a person’s political opinions is agreeable, but to attack his or her religious beliefs is beyond reproach. It is frustrating that so much reverence is given to ALL religions when it is blindingly obvious that they cannot all be true and whose claims, mostly, are disprovable by a questioning five year old.

    Christians are not all ignorant and Atheists are not all intelligent. But most peoples’ reasons for being Christian (or any religion) are ignorant. This is upsetting to a people who, by and large, pride themselves on logic, reason, and education.

    On other little thing. If a theist can’t prove the existence of god, doesn’t that make them an agnostic, not a theist? I mean, you can’t say THERE IS A GOD without proof, can you?

  24. Psalm 14:1 said


    I agree with you concerning tax exempt status for Churches. I believe that to be “hush money” instituted by the government. I also believe many “representatives” of Christ are money hungry and are storing up treasures on earth.

    I also agree with you that it is a shame that so many professing Christians are Christians by “birth” and not by examination of the evidence. Seeing that no one is a Christian by birth, nor can they be forced to convert to Christ, we should look at the evidence and put the claims of Christ under a microscope to see whether they be true or not.

    A person who is a theist would say that there is evidence for the existence of deity. Yet, the atheist would not accept that evidence as such. It is not up to the theist to prove the existence of a God. It is the atheist that says emphatically that there is no God. With such a bold statement, there must be absolute evidence. Seeing that Scientists haven’t even explored all of the earth, let alone the known universe, such a gesture proclaimed by an atheist is far from Scientific or factual.

    – Psalm 14:1

    2 Kings 2:24,
    A-theism is not a lacking of theology. It is a denial of deity. Theology is the study of deity – theos= God, ology= study of.
    Harris, Hitchins, and Dawkins would disagree with your definition. You can be a theologian without being a Christian.

    – Psalm 14:1

  25. Chris C. said

    I’ve never said, “there is no god.” I will say, “I think the existence of any god is highly improbable.” Does that make me n agnostic? I don’t know.

    Psalm, I can only disgaree with one thing:

    “It is not up to the theist to prove the existence of a God. It is the atheist that says emphatically that there is no God. With such a bold statement, there must be absolute evidence…”

    1. You cannot prove a negative in this way.
    2. The onus is on the person who holds the beliefs to supply goo evidence for them.

    Are you familiar with Bertrand Russel’s teapot? If yes, skip to the bottm. If not, read on:

    “If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.” (Betrand Russell, “Is There a God”)

    Can you disprove the existence of Russell’s teapot? No? Then, although I am sure you are an ateapotist, you still must provide evidence for the tea-pot’s nonexistence untill I will ever doubt!

  26. Mike S said

    I know it was a typo but “goo evidence” struck me as funny… is that the pond slime that we evolved from???… 🙂

  27. Chris C. said

    Hah, No thats a result of 3 hours of sleep and fingers which don’t respond well to my brain right now.

  28. Jeff42 said

    Interesting debate! No good evidence? God says that you have all the evidence you need in creation to be held “without excuse” for not believing:

    Romans 1:18-32
    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. [19] For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. [20] For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

    Psalm 19:1-3
    [1] The heavens declare the glory of God,
    and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
    [2] Day to day pours out speech,
    and night to night reveals knowledge.
    [3] There is no speech, nor are there words,
    whose voice is not heard.

    Jesus does teach that unbelief is willful, not because of any lack of light:

    John 3:17-21
    For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. [19] And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. [20] For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. [21] But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.

    Deep down in his heart, every man knows full well that God exists and that he is responsible to him. The unbeliever “suppresses the truth” because he does not desire to submit to God.

    But, there is mercy for everyone who will turn to Christ and receive him in faith. Flee from the wrath of God to come and trust Christ today for eternal salvation.

    John 3:16-18
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
    [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

    John 6:37-40
    All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. [38] For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. [39] And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

  29. Willie w. said

    Thanks for the Chick tract.

  30. Jeff42 said

    Chick tract? very interesting. Did you read the entire post, or just skim it and give a knee-jerk reaction?

  31. F. L. A. said


  32. John said

    I think that does make you an Agnostic, Chris C.
    I just want you to know that we[us Pagans at least] appreciate having your opposing view here to inspire fresh theological thoughts[toothy grin].
    This is all very interesting.
    Fred, that was cute, about the Flying Spaghetti Monster.What’s really amusing is that after reviewing the web-sight we have concluded that the religion of The Flying Spaghetti Monster is, ironically, NO MORE FAR FETCHED THAN ANY OTHER THEOLOGY!
    Who knows, in another 200 years[if humanity lives so long] the cult of The Flying Spaghetti Monster may even be an organized religion.[smile]

  33. Fred said

    It is funny, isn’t it? Humor in Religion? I say it is an idea whose time has come.

  34. Anonymous said

    I don’t understand how anyone could not feel God’s existance. It is unreal to me how so many people put so much time and effort in trying to disprove something that is so present. Obviously, atheist take a lot of time to come up with very smart responses to theological questions, and do not take the time to open their eyes and see what is right in front of them. I know God is real, and I know that Christ saved me from sin. I feel his presence everyday.

  35. Chris C. said

    Anonymous 34:

    You KNOW? That must mean you have proof. Must mean you don’t need faith!

    Isn’t it strange that many adherants of other religions feel the exact same ‘presence’ in their daily lives?

  36. Former Fundie Willie said

    Yeah, Chris C. A corollary from great american atheist Mark Twain: “Faith is believing what you know ain’t true.”

    Isn’t it strange that many adherants of other religions feel the exact same ‘presence’ in their daily lives?

    Must be the devil sending them a strong delusion. Just like he does with Catholics and Mormons.

  37. Mike S said

    From great Bible writer of Hebrews, “Faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see.”

  38. Mike S said

    And again from the same writer. “We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure.” Peace that surpasses all understanding! 😮

  39. Chris C. said


    I appreciate the sincerity of your responses, but I am really interested in a response to my question regarding how Christians explain the religious zeal of other faiths? Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus, they all feel the same sense of euphoria, justification, peace; a sense of their god being present with them. Yet obviously these religions are mutually exclusive. This question isn’t directed at anyone in particular…anyone who has an insightful answer.

  40. John said

    Anyone? As a devote of an inclusive, polytheistic, pagan religion, should I try and answer? Or would you prefer hearing from some of the others here first, those with a more dualistic theological view?

  41. John said

    Fred, I KNOW that the deities have a sense of humor, or I think I wouldn’t exist [smile].

  42. Mike S said

    Sure Chris, I’ll be glad to respond. There is a huge difference between those religions and Christianity. Actually, I hear very little talk about “peace”, at least “personal peace”, from Muslims or Hindus. Buddhists talk a lot about peace, but their peace is one you have to work for. Christianity stands out as totally different, as all of the rest of the religions are “works oriented”. You have to earn your way. Yet Christianity is the only one that claims “Grace Alone”.

    I realize this does not yet address your question about how these other religions make similar claims as you noted… “They all feel the same sense of euphoria, justification, peace; a sense of their god being present with them”. I think you are very intelligent to realize that that these religions must be mutually exclusive. There are a great many (Oprah’s) who believe that all religions have equal merit and are just a different ways to get to God. The laws of non-contradiction certainly rule out that option.

    Let’s go with this “mutually exclusive” thought process for a moment. If ANY religion were true, it can only be one, would you agree? Let’s however, take some time to look at some of the similarities though. You noted some of them, “they all feel the same sense of euphoria, justification, peace; a sense of their god being present with them…” I don’t think that anyone can honestly make the claim that ALL of these folks are imagining, or conjuring up these experiences psychologically. I think their experiences they describe are often very real experiences.

    I believe there is a reasonable explanation in that there is a true “spirit world” we share in our existence. I don’t think there are very many people who are not aware of or experienced some really profound spiritual realities in their lifetime. And a great many are highly motivated by these powerful experiences. Some good, and some not so good and some just downright evil.

    I believe the only explanation of these experiences can be found through the Christian worldview and the source of such is yes… from the Bible. I know you think we are a bunch of Fundamentalist Bible thumpers but I am convinced that the explanations found within are the only ones that can make sense of the spiritual realities that coexist in our world with us. You can also see this truth displayed in creation. People are believed to have a Mind, Body and Spirit.

    The Biblical worldview teaches that both Good and Evil exist in the physical and spiritual dimensions. Everything of God, (good) and not of God, (evil). Yet we are also taught that this evil, loves to masquerade itself as good. We are taught that this evil (Satan) loves to convince our consciences to earn your way. These spirits are very capable of convincing us to do good things for the wrong reasons. These spirits are also very capable and successful at searing our consciences while convincing us that we are smart enough to make it on our own. We don’t need any god in our life. I can do just fine with me, myself, and I on the throne of control in my life.

    It certainly makes perfect sense that these other followers/religious people, are experiencing very real spiritual encounters with these beautiful but evil spirits. They are simply buying into the lies of spirits moving them and giving them lots of warm fuzzies or convincing them that they should strap a bomb on and kill a bunch of folks in the name of Allah.

    Do you find it even a little odd that Christianity is the ONLY one where God did ALL THE WORK to convince you of the love that He has for you?

  43. John said


  44. Mike S said

    Oh come on John… Let it out man!!!

  45. John said

    I type too slow and I don’t have the time,…. yet[grin].Maybe tomorrow.
    Didn’t we go through this on another site?[Hee!Hee!Hee!Hee!]
    Happy Saint Valentines Day everyone! And goodnight.

  46. F. L. A. said

    JUST AS HE KNEW WHAT YOU WOULD SAY, SO SHOULD YOU KNOW WHAT HE WOULD SAY. HE WOULD SAY SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF “Yes, but remember, that’s only according to your CHRISTIAN theology, and need I remind you that Hinduism, along with many other religions, predate Christianity..etc., etc., etc.,…Satan didn’t even exist then…etc., etc.,….not a part of those pre-Christian theologies, so how could they even be affected by them?….etc.,etc.

  47. Anonymous said

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. – can’t go much farther back than that. 🙂

    Satan was there in the garden – looks like he’s been around a while too. 🙂

  48. Willie W. said

    In Hebrew Genesis 1:1 actually reads “A beginning: When the gods began to create…”

  49. Mike S said

    F.L.A., All that doesn’t really affect my statements though. Whether or not there is or isn’t a Satan in other religious worldviews or any pre-dating/post dating religion does not refute my statement that the Christian worldview is the only one that offers a logical explanation to Chris’s question.

    Just because a religion pre-dates another does not make it any more or any less true. If it is true, it is true. Christianity is the only worldview that can explain all other worldviews.

  50. Anonymous said


    That might be your impression if you simply looks up the words in a Strongs Concordance, but that does not accurately represent an accurate translation of the Hebrew. It is a dangerous business to try translating the original languages without a good understanding of how they operate. When you come up with a translation that is found nowhere in reliable translations, odds are you are wrong. In this instance, if you do your homework, you will find that it is accurate to translate Gen. 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” This is also reflected in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament.

  51. Willie said

    I’m giving the exact mechanical translation. You can argue about what is actually meant, but those are the words.

  52. Anonymous said

    Have you studied Hebrew? “Elohim” is frequently translated “God.” What about the “bait” preposition attached the word tranlated “beginning”? What about the Septuagint? I assure you that your translation is not “exact.” It is misleading.

  53. Willie Willie said

    Yes I have. You’re wrong. Look it up.

  54. Anonymous said

    Ok, you either have not studied Hebrew, or you are unwilling to back up your case. I have looked it up. I have translated it. Not to mention the fact that I don’t know of any translation that renders the verse as you do. And all of the major translations are on my side.

    I don’t wish to be strident with you, but if you are going to make claims like you made in post #48, you must back them up.

  55. F. L. A. said


  56. Willie said

    So you’re calling me a liar now?

  57. Anonymous said

    Notice, that was a conditional statement.

    “you either have not studied Hebrew, or you are unwilling to back up your case”

    No, to clarify, I am not calling you a liar. I am just wondering why you would say that Gen. 1 reads “a beginning” and “gods” and not be willing to back it up. Surely you can see that it is a very “original” [smile] translation. If you are going to go against all the major translations out there and you want to be taken seriously, you are going to have to prove that you know what you are talking about. Otherwise, you seem to have ventured into an area that is over your head. Bald asserions prove nothing.

  58. Willie said

    I was making an assertion about the exact MECHANICAL translation. Not the interpretation. “Elohim” is a plural word. It means “Gods.” In this case the verb and noun do not agree. Tradition has it rendered “God,” and there are reasons for this. But it’s also sometimes rendered “gods”(Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other elohim (gods) before me.”

    As far as Bereshith goes- here is quote from Wikipedia. You can confirm it in any scholarly text. “The opening word of the verse, b’reishit (or Bereishit), has a known meaning, though the precise meaning is open to interpretation, which is highly significant because it contributes to both biblical thought and subsequent religious doctrines. The word b’reishit lacks the definite article (“the”). Various English translations put it as “in the beginning,” “in the beginning when,” “at the beginning,” “during the beginning,” or “when [God] began.”

    Now do I win a prize?

  59. Anonymous said

    Yes, Elohim is plural, but when used of Yahweh it is translated in the singular, as evidenced by virtually all the translations out there. If you look it up, it can mean God or god(s). Many words have more than one gloss.

    Curious, do you know of any translations that render the verse as you have? I sure don’t.

    I wouldn’t necessarily base my translation on Wikipeia, but even there none of the choices are “in a beginning.”

    When I am doing translation it always gives me pause when I come up with something that no one else has seen in the text.

  60. Jack said

    There is nothing new under the sun….CAN NONBELIEVERS PROVE THERE IS’NT A GOD. No, but they sure can waste a lot of electricity and time trying.
    Do you at least believe in evolution ? Wasn’t there a guy on “late night with the really weird” that talked about the “God Part”? Sin is bad for people in the long run sometimes even in the short run (ask all the guys at the grave yard that got caught with someone else’s wife.)
    There are vast regions of the world where the state is god. Hopelessness lives there. Be careful what you wish for you just might convince us believers that you’re right. The strong and smart are superior and anything less must be eliminated, I can smell the ovens now.
    Humor is good but not at the expense of others?….well why not revel in cruelty, look into the eyes of the abused woman without a champion. Why should I stand up? Because I believe in right and I believe ultimately that right must prevail. Nonbelievers have come to the conclusion that right is wrong, and there is no ultimate justice. You belittle, dislike and call us names, but we love you and hope you find salvation.

  61. John said

    Hello everybody!
    No, the F. L. A. summed things up well enough to satisfy me in post #46 and #55. And we could debate on THAT, but well, why?
    For fun maybe….or not. I don’t know if those responses helped to satisfy or feed your curiosity any Chris C., but if it helped then I’m glad.
    As for your post’s Mr. Sears, bear in mind that,not being Christian, WE can never really understand everything about being a Christian and the universe that you exist in,just as you being a Christian you could never really understand everything about being a Wiccan priest or the universe that I exist in. I know a lot more than some people and a lot less than others, and I am still learning new things all the time. And some day or night I will die, by bullet,blade,poison,accident, or predators tooth and claw, and then I shall pass on and know…. more[smile]. And this is great, as it means that there will always be interesting stuff to look forward to. And I can be satisfied with this.

    This is what the religious have to look forward too Chris C.

  62. Anonymous said


    I just checked into Gen. 1:1 a little further. The verb “bara” is 3rd person, masculine, singular. This shows that in this context the subject of the verb (Elohim) is singular and not plural. Besides, when speaking of the true God it is always translated in the singular (see Gen. 3:9).

    As far as “bereshith” goes, look at Jeremiah 26:1. You will see the same construction. It does not mean, “In a beginning of the reign of Jehoiachim,” but “In the beginning …”

    Translation is very beneficial, but it is also very challenging and should be handled with care. After all, we are dealing with the Word of God.

  63. Willie said

    <blockquoteI just checked into Gen. 1:1 a little further. The verb “bara” is 3rd person, masculine, singular. I already said that. Read my post again.

  64. anti-atheist said

    Seems the thread is getting off topic a little.

    Has anyone really answered the question: Can atheists disprove the existence of God?

    I wonder if God believes in atheists?
    What is the underlying issue with atheisms denial of deity?

    Richard Dawkins makes it emphatically clear that he is an atheist due to Charles Darwin’s ‘Origin of the species’ and ‘The descent of man’. And just like Darwin, Dawkins has a bitterness toward specifically the Christian God, and all reference to deity in general.

    Chris C. doesn’t seem too bitter, yet Willie is very bitter and resentful toward Jesus Christ. I wonder why that is?

  65. Anonymous said


    Sorry, you’re right. We are a bit off track. I just couldn’t let that mistranslation go without comment. But, I think we have said enough about that now. Any who are interested can check out the facts from what has already been posted.

  66. Fred said

    Anti-atheist, why would your atheist debate opponent want to answer that question? He must answer “no, I can’t”.

    Do you still beat your wife?

    Is God something that can be proved scientifically?

  67. Chris C. said

    Anti-Atheist said, “What is the underlying issue with atheisms denial of deity?”

    I am interested in your thoughts on this question, Anti-A.

  68. Ivy said

    Chris C. and Willie and all the other atheists/agnostics – I don’t understand the problem you all have with Christianity and Christians. You think we are illogical, you think many of us are ignorant, you think we disregard science and instead choose to believe superstition.

    Well, I say to you, I think you are illogical. How can you trust the thoughts of man, when there are so many of us? Over 6 billion people who are totally individual and yet, just because of groups of them get together and totter around the lab for years, they suddenly have all the answers and we who believe in Christ are fools? Really? Do you know that God speaks to this very issue in His thousands-of-years-old text? He knew about you, Chris and Willie et al, before you even knew about you. He knew there would be people like you who would put the imaginings and thoughts of man above the wisdom of God. He said that He would use His wisdom to confound you – that you would think His words foolish. Does it bother you that a text, written years before your father’s father’s father’s father’s father’s father (and so on) was born, spoke of people like you?

    The fact is that what you believe (or don’t believe) is your Religion. You have staked your soul on it. God does not and never will have to prove anything to us. He also tells us that – that there are people in this world that will go about seeking after a sign, refusing to believe until there is “proof”. It’s like your child saying to you “I won’t believe you until you prove it to me” (I know there are many teenagers who try this…). Don’t you think that line of thinking is audacious coming from a child? We parents love our babies and expect them to follow us and obey us because we teach them rightly. Now of course, we are fallible humans, but this parent-child relationship is a mirror of God’s relationship to us. Obedient, righteous children don’t disrespect and question their “creator” (i.e., parent), so what sense does it make for us to question God and expect Him to answer? Especially when that question does not come out of a real desire to know Him, but more out of a desire to get into some intellectual rangling.

    Anyway, I digress…

    Also, in response to someone who stated that Christianity is a young religion. Yes, it is because it was ORGANIZED through the first advent of Christ. But Christians are grafted on and share the same inheritance as faithful Jews. Our religion comes COMPLETELY from Judaism; it is the “next chapter”, if you will, in the Jewish story of faith. So, got anything to say about that? Probably not, because you wouldn’t want to seem as anti-Semitic as you are anti-Christian.

  69. Mike S said

    Chris, my post #42. Did that come anywhere close to answering your question? Did it make any sense or did your eyes roll back in your head when you read it? Just curious.

  70. Fred said

    Ivy, the thing is that many Christians do ignore science. This is well documented. It is an important argument not only for atheists to make but for non-fundamentalist Christians, too. That the fundamentalists have proclaimed their goal is to “take back America” is the reason we must continue making it.

    Your point that Christianity comes completely from Judaism is hard to agree with. I thought Christianity comes to us completely from extra-Judaic sources?

  71. Mike S said

    Not sure what you mean by extra-Judaic, but Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. We, along with Judaists embrace the Torah (Old Testament) as God’s revealed Word and Jesus Christ, God in the Flesh, was born of the Jewish lineage. All of the founding disciples were Jewish as well. How is it not completely from Judaism?

  72. Fred said

    Mike, first of all we are going to end up disagreeing on what Christianity purports to be versus what it really is, so let’s cut to the chase: you read the Bible as the inerrant Word of God and I read it as being written entirely by men.

    Our religion comes from Rome, does it not? How do you explain the utter disinterest in Jews throughout history in having their religion be fulfilled by Christianity?


  73. Chris C. said


    “Over 6 billion people who are totally individual and yet, just because of groups of them get together and totter around the lab for years, they suddenly have all the answers and we who believe in Christ are fools?”
    No, you have foolish beliefs.

    “The fact is that what you believe (or don’t believe) is your Religion”
    So, not collecting stamps is one of your hobbies?

    “We parents love our babies and expect them to follow us and obey us because we teach them rightly.”
    Most children have seen, touched, and had a conversation with their parents. Thus babies usually find good reason to trust their parents.

    He knew there would be people like you who would put the imaginings and thoughts of man above the wisdom of God”
    Does his wisdom include torturing people for eternity because they chose not to obey him? Seems a bit petty and excessive. There is nothing in the bible, including Psalm 14:1, which could not have been written by a man 2,000 years ago.

    “So, got anything to say about that? Probably not, because you wouldn’t want to seem as anti-Semitic as you are anti-Christian.”
    I am anti-ignorance, not anti-people. I thought we could all agree that such practices as traditional circumcision and a refusal to eat pigs were baseless and undeserving of debate at all. Glad we cleared that up.


    Yes it did answer my question. That was not a subject I ever had adressed in my 19 years as a Christian, so thanks.

  74. Mike S said

    So which one are you the expert on… “what Christianity purports, or what it really is” And no, our religion does not come from Rome. It does not come from any “Place” at all. It comes from the “seed of Abraham” which is God’s chosen, through “Israel” and I don’t mean the place. The people. Not bloodlines but “heartlines”.

  75. Mike S said

    Sorry to say but “people with foolish beliefs” are normally regarded as “fools”. So yes, we are fools for Christ!

    Also, I would be glad to give you some proven medical facts regarding circumcision and eating pig that might just surprise you, if you are interested.

  76. Mike S said

    You are certainly welcome. May I ask why you
    1. Beleived you were a Christian for 19 years? How do you define “being a Christian”
    2. Became a Non-Christian?

    Too personal? If so, disregard.

  77. Willie said

    I would be glad to give you some proven medical facts regarding circumcision and eating pig that might just surprise you, if you are interested.

    Ah yes findings from the highly respected Journal of Stuff I Made Up

  78. Mike S said

    Nice Willie. You’re so sweet!

  79. Chris C. said

    Its not so much circumcision itself, its the whole Mohel deal I think is a bit archaic (and gross). Plenty of other cultures ate pork in that time period and before and seemed to do all right.

    I believed in Jesus and in his resurrection. I did, at one point, believe in a literal interpretation of the whole bible. I put my faith in Jesus and was (or supposedly was, I should say) saved through my faith and God’s grace. I rejected the notion of Christianity and all man-made religions after doing a lot of reading and thinking. It was a slow process and involved a lot of fear and guilt. I think the most powerful factor in my de-conversion was the consciousness-raiser of Natural Selection. The theory of natural seletion and evolution is such a stunningly simple and fitting explanation for life on earth, it immediatly made me quesion the necessity of my beliefs. Im sure this will only spur on the christian-right’s war on evolution, but it was true for me. Basically I was forced to either beleive in something that was baseless but comforting or accept the truth of the natural world.

    I was raised baptist if you’re wondering what sort of theological background I come from.

  80. Fred said

    Mike, God bless you. I’ll bother you just once more here:

    If it is so obvious that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism why do they not think that it is? Could it be that Christianity, instead of being the fulfillment of Judaism is an appropriation (of sorts) of Judaism by non-Jews?


  81. F. L. A. said


  82. John said

    And a hello from me too, Ivy.[toothy smile, but not quite a grin, Ha.Ha.]
    Although there have been others like you, it’s good to hear from you again.That comment about “young” Christianity came from the F. L. A. trying to be me.Remember me? Well we never forgot youuuu. I miss your rebuking of me from the “Interview with a Wiccan” site. T.T.F.N.

  83. John said

    And a hello from me too, Ivy.[toothy smile, but not quite a grin, Ha.Ha.]
    Although there have been others like you, it’s good to hear from you again.That comment about “young” Christianity came from the F. L. A. trying to be me.Remember me? Well we never forgot youuuu. I miss your rebuking of me from the “Interview with a Wiccan” site. T.T.F.N.

    p.s. Do I really come off as anti-Christian? I didn’t think I did.

  84. Ivy said

    Hi, John. I remember “John the Wiccan” but I don’t remember what I wrote – sorry if I offended. What you, FLA, Chris, and Willie should definitely realize is that you are all very offensive to people who claim the name of Christ. You come on here, to a Christian site and make cracks about us being foolish, insinuate that what we believe is ridiculous, and imply that we don’t think with our own minds – all the while talking down to us as if we are baseless in our thought and feeling.

    Fact is, we claim the name of Christ because we are filled with the Holy Spirit. We do – I’m going to change this… I do not expect any of you to become Christian by what is said here. No one is forcing their religion on you. YOU ARE ON A SITE DEDICATED TO CHRISTIANITY. Of course the people here are convinced of their beliefs! Would you have it any other way? I would say that someone who claims to have been “a Christian for 19 years” is foolish to have turned his back on the truth (and come back to this site to rub his defection in our noses) and trade in the truth for a lie from the pit of Hell.

    You all are free to think whatever you want to think. God gave every human freewill. He also said that some of us would be caught up by “strong delusions”, believing a lie as if it was the truth. But I am sure you “former Christians” understand that everything you say on here – to an actual Christian – is seen as nothing more than an insult and an affront on a human level. On a spiritual level, I know you to be sad and lost people. I’m praying…(not smiling because I’m serious)

  85. Chris C. said

    Hey Ivy,

    Challenging someone’s beliefs is not the same thing as insulting people personally. I dont believe I have made any personal attacks towards anyone. Why is it so insulting to have one’s beliefs challenged?

    By the way, I’m certainly not a perfectly happy person, but I am content with my life and enjying it. There’s no need to judge that I am sad because I am an atheist.

    This thread specifically asks, “Can atheists disprove the existence of God?” I see now that some of you would much rather talk in circles among yourselves, bashing non-theism without ever hearing from a non-theist. Not much of a debate then really…

  86. Mike S said

    I would agree that you have not been insulting. You have been very straight forward without the snide innuendos and veiled jabs that some of the others seem to revel in. Of course, some of US have been guilty of that as well. People like Richard Dawkins certainly fit into what Ivy describes here. Very nasty and condescending. Chris, I think you have been respectful and would like to continue our philisophical discussions.

  87. Tripp said

    Ivy is right….you guys come on here and “challenge” beliefs, but if anyone challenges your beliefs…..”oh, my goodness….those narrow-minded Christians again”

    you have to be able to accept that different people believe different things and be able to debate intelligently and without malice……much like mike s. and amanda on the mormon discussions

  88. F. L. A. said


  89. F. L. A. said


  90. Mike S said

    Fred, you’ll never guess… it’s because I read the Bible for all it’s worth. First of all Christ specifically said he’s the fulfillment, and secondly He described how Jews would reject Him and His following. And BTW, just because an individual or an entire culture rejects something does not automatically make it false.

  91. Fred said

    I still say that Christianity comes to us from outside the realm of Judaism. Which is all I wanted to say to begin with.

  92. Fred said

    Ivy, this site is the Truth Talk Live blog. TTL is an entertainment program where the host frequently invites Christians and non-Christians to post comments here about the topics discussed on the program.

    If you are looking for blogs dedicated to Christianity, look at the links at the top left margin of this page for a list of other blogs, most of which would be just the thing.

  93. John said

    Ivy and Tripp, is this because of the things we have been challenging Stu with on “The Mormon Mirage” site?

  94. F. L. A. said


  95. Mike S said

    You two are just a trip! Not necessarily antagonistic, maybe a little disturbing at times, but always interesting! 🙂

  96. John said

    It’s easy to be interesting when your a weirdo. Or a monstrous weirdo. Well, we’re both monstrous actually, me just a little less so.
    I still get tickled knowing that here in the 21st century the F. L. A. and I are, to rational civilized society, thought of as fictional characters[!] fit only for Grimm’s Fairy Tales.

    Thank you, Mr. Sears!

  97. Tripp said

    This has become more of an atheist/wiccan/mormon/whatever site. Where are the Christians?

    Seems there are only a few on here debating. All scared away from the evil people…hahahaha!

    Just kidding you guys.

  98. Ivy said

    Hello, gentlemen. Actually, I was working – to answer FLA’s question about my response time. Now that I’ve had a chance to relax, I will say that Chris is right. I got off-topic lecturing you all about your treatment of my (our) religious beliefs. But, here I go again —

    To Fred – you are wrong about the purpose of this site. This is a Christian site that discusses current events from a Christian worldview. I’m not sure how you could get the site’s mission statement wrong when it’s in black and white. :-O “Today’s Issues, From a Biblical Perspective!”

    To John: I never commented or even looked at the Mormon Mirage post, so I can’t be included in that situation…

    To Fred (again): Just because you THINK that Christianity didn’t come from Judaism, does not mean you are right. What exactly are you basing your thought process on? Your opinion? If you would only ask for a right mind (pray to God – eek!) and read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation with the intent to really understand what is written, your mind might just change.

    To All: Back to the original question – “Can Atheists disprove God’s existence?” Simply, NO. And I think that one of the non-believers concurred. Of course, it was by saying that its on the onus of the claimant to positively prove His existence – but still…The fact that shall remain fact until THE END OF TIME is that atheists can not disprove the existence of God because He exists. That makes me happy. 😀

    And a P.S.: I do not mind intelligent debate; however, on other posts – and no, I am not going to go back and name which ones and give you the numbers – you have implied that Christians are foolish, ignorant (I think someone actually said this), we disregard science, etc. Intelligent Christians understand that science is a gift given by God to reveal natural truths to man. Natural truths. Not supernatural. Science can neither prove nor disprove the exist of the supernatural. That does not automatically mean that the supernatural does not exist. That would be an illogical conclusion. What it does mean is that science is meant to develop our deep understanding of the natural world.

  99. ADB said

    So Christianity did not emerge from Judaism. I guess I have to return my diplomas because I never learned that. Someone needs to re-read some ancient history- P.S. you don’t even need to read the Bible to get this one.

  100. Fred said

    If I remember my High School Biblical History class (it’s been 34 years) correctly, the New Testament(hence Christianity) comes to us from Rome. Or was it Constantinople? Judaism certainly doesn’t claim it.

    Am I mistaken? I know what the NT says (thanks, Ivy), but it’s origins?


    P.S. If we didn’t have the New Testament would we have Christianity?

  101. Mike S said

    Ask instead
    If we didn’t have Christ, would we have Christianity? No. Christ was born Jewish. I suggest a study of of the book of Hebrews to get a beautiful picture of the fulfillment.

  102. Fred said

    Ivy, we are going to disagree on this, but it is obvious to me that the purpose of Truth Talk Live (radio show) is to sell products for the advertisers and to make livings for the employees, then to entertain the audience. Truth comes in dead last. Stu may deny it, but he often makes absurd statements.

    I am a Christian and I came here to provide a non-fundamentalist point of view. There are others (also invited by the host) here now that do that perhaps better than I do. If what we say disturbs you, good-O!

    Sorry, but some of the ideas promulgated by the fundamentalists are at best ridiculous and at worst dangerous. As I have said before, we need to stand up and oppose these ideas and this where some of us have chosen to stand.


  103. Fred said

    Mike, that Christ was born at all is not a certainty, and is not known outside the New Testament which comes from non-Judaic sources!

  104. ADB said


    Some of the NT probably was written from Rome. Beyond that, the church was aided tremendously by the Roman penchant for engineering which provided a good system of roads, just as it was aided by the presence of Greek as essentially a universal language of the day. Christianity arose from Judaism in that Jesus, by all accounts was Jewish and is recorded by the NT as saying that “he came first for the lost sheep of Israel.” The NT also records the original followers as being Jews. Beyond this, the early Christian worldview was decidedly Jewish in origin as opposed to Greek. The Jewish/Christian worldview of the day did not espouse the stark dualism (physical/spiritual) of Greek philosophy. They had a well established belief in bodily resurrection, a concept relatively alien to Greek thought. The Judeo/Christian worldview believed that there would be a Day of the Lord, when God intervened in history to vindicate the faithful and judge the wicked. The difference between Jews and Christians in this regard is that the Christians believed in a “two-step” eschatology in which Jesus advent is the first part of the Day of the Lord, and his second advent is the culmination.

    Best Wishes,
    A curmudgeonly pastor

  105. Mike S said

    Fred, all due respect. Your stated beliefs do not pair with your claim to be a Christian. I am not judging you personally but the things that you say indicate Agnosticism at best. An individual who doubts that Christ even existed can not rightfully claim to be a “Christian” for how could one follow/believe in/worship someone that does not even exist? Which is the same question that Chris and Willie have been asking.

  106. Mike S said

    Fred, you said “I came here to provide a non-fundamentalist point of view”. I guess that would depend on your definition of “Fundamentalist”. If you were to use the definition of “returning to the basic funadamentals of belief” I would have to agree that you “provide a non-fundamentalist point of view”. But if your definition means “extremist”, like the liberal media defines it (The pot calling the kettle black by the way), I would have to disagree as your point of view is certainly extreme in nature.

  107. Willie said

    There is such a thing as Christian Atheism.

  108. Mike S said

    Ok, if there was such a thing… what would your point be?

  109. W Willie said

    There IS such a thing. The point is you don’t have to believe in a historical Christ to be a Christian, anymore than you have to believe in a historical Buddha to be a Buddhist.

  110. Mike S said

    I guess if you really want to believe that your bicycle is a car, go ahead. You have a lot of work in front of you. Happy peddling!! 😮

  111. Mike S said

    But I forgot, since you are an “Acarist” you don’t believe in cars at all. So you’re peddling something you think is something that you don’t believe in. Make sense? Whew!

  112. Fred said

    Mike, I am certainly agnostic, yet as I have stated before, I am also a Christian for the same reasons that most other Christians are: I was born and raised into a Christian family. I have the faith of a child. Didn’t I read that somewhere?

    To me fundamentalism means adhering to a doctrine regardless of it’s irrationality.

    Merriam-Webster.com gives it thusly:


    1: (a) often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching (b): the beliefs of this movement (c): adherence to such beliefs

    2: a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles


  113. Mike S said

    “To me fundamentalism means adhering to a doctrine regardless of it’s irrationality.”

    Thank You for describing your liberal views so perfectly!! 🙂

  114. F. L. A. said


  115. ADB said

    Just a note about the label “Fundamentalist.” It’s not a particularly helpful label, because some toss it around as an insult to others and some proudly claim the label. It’s even more useless in this context because none of us actually know each other. I would differ a little with Fred’s dictionary definition of the term. There are many Christians who would largely adhere to the same basic doctrines as “fundamentalists” but who are not fundamentalist. The difference as I see it in in the mindset, or “worldview” to use a popular buzzword. The “fundamentalist” is one who uses those doctrines to differentiate themselves from others, and likes drawing doctrinal distinctions. The result is that fundamentalists often find themselves at odds with each other and with other groups even within the realm of Christianity. I write this as one who is a fairly conservative Christian but don’t consider myself to be fundamentalist, and I certainly intend no illwill with fellow Christians who might differ with how I have heard the term defined.

    Regarding the original topic of disproving God. It seems to be rather silly since it is nearly impossible to prove a negative.

    Best wishes, a curmudgeonly pastor:)

  116. zerxil said


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