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Are these Christians going to far?

Posted by truthtalklive on January 28, 2008

Stu Confronts the Flame Thrower TV host Molotov Mitchell! (www.flamethrower.tv)

Should Faith TV have pulled this episode?

Click HERE for the article and earlier discussion.

stuart-pics-005.jpg stuart-pics-010.jpg
Stu and Molotov discuss and take calls. (click on the photo for a larger version)

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79 Responses to “Are these Christians going to far?”

  1. "transmitter" jim in Richmond said

    I applaud them. We take too much from Islam without responding. The teacher persecuted for allowing her pupils to name a teddy bear Mohammad is a prime example.

    Jim

  2. I think brother Mitchell walks a tight rope. I totally agree with his assesment about Elijah. Gideon kicked over his dads idols, burned ’em even. Paul told the folks at Mars Hill that they were superstitious (“very religious”). So I guess I would say this: if you’re going to mock the powers of darkness, make absolutely sure that you are commisioned to do so. I’ll be praying for you bro.

    And I can’t help it…the cookie thing is just dang funny!! It just is. Demonic religious heads deserve no respect, but I have to say bro…we are always representive of Christ, everywhere we go, like it or not (not suggesting that you don’t bro Mitch). We are a royal priesthood. The priests always reflect the God whom they serve, so again, just be sure that He’s behind this. Even if you aren’t trying to convert muslims on this show, you should still think about the fact that we aren’t really given a choice as to wether or not we represent Jesus.

    So bottom line: if you could look me in the eye and say with absolute confidence and an undefiled conscience that you know that you know that this is what should be done, I committ you to the grace of God. It may be that God actually could use something like an insult to drive something into someone’s heart. You just never know…

    mark jr.

  3. Rod said

    I think that to make fun of Muhumad and the muslim religion is wrong. As professing christians we should be horrified that if they step out of this world without Christ they will spend eternaty in hell. This should brake our hearts and not make for a comady routine. Every effort should be made to witness to these people and share the true gospel with them. I have to say that it made me sick and turned the radio off.

  4. Fred said

    This guy makes a “joke” that no one laughs at and that appeals only to bullies and braggarts, then he brags (paraphrasing) “kill me…make my day…to be a martyr would be awesome”.

    We are supposed to take this guy lightly? This is conservative Christian humor?

    I’m glad I don’t “get it”.

  5. ADB said

    It is funny in a way, but is it does it really fit in with Christ’s command to love our enemies? In the current environment Islam certainly qualifies as an enemy both geopolitically and also as a false religion, but does that negate the command of scripture>

    A curmudgeonly pastor 🙂

  6. Molotov said

    Quietly, Molotov enters the room with a cookie in hand…

    “I’ll bet Elijah loved the Muhammed Cookie episode…” he quips as he takes a bite.

    The room gets quiet. Someone turns and calls Molotov a bad name. A chorus of voices chime out in agreement.

    “You’re not representing real Christianity!” someone cackles.

    “Yeah,” a man in tweed follows. “Jesus was love, not a bully!”

    “Wait, maybe he’s trying to tell us something…” a heavy woman wonders aloud.

    “Shut yer trap, Della!” the man in tweed snaps. “Real Christians do things our way. There ain’t no message, just a bad joke!”

    Della sheepishly sips her glass and looks at the wall.

    Molotov shrugs and leaves.

    As the door closes behind him, the men in the group sniff in satisfaction.

    “What a twit!” the man in tweed guffawed. The room erupts in laughter. Everyone joins in. Suddenly, a muslim walks into the room and detonates.

    The End

  7. Mike S said

    No Fred. We shouldn’t. It is also niether conservative, nor Christian, nor humor.

  8. Mike S said

    Did that sick little skit give you some sort of satisfaction Molotov? Are you in agreement with the “God Hates Fags” group too? Sick, sick, sick.

  9. Tripp said

    Haha! God doesn’t hate fags. He hates the lifestyle they have CHOSEN. But, I’m sure you know that, Mike. Personally, I’m as mad at the whole PC “let’s love everyody” mentality, as Jesus was at the money changers in the temple. How many other cheeks are Christians going to turn?

  10. Rodney said

    Unbelievable! You people are the ones who are “sick sick sick!” What hypocrisy! So many of you hatefully attack this guy Molotov for mocking Islam and Mohammad (NOT muslims, right?), and you call him “sick?”

    Wow. I wonder what God thinks of you people! You’ve missed his point, obviously…it’s just a matter of how far spiritually you’ve missed it. Didn’t you hear his testimony? He’s a solid believer! “God Hates Fags?” Puh-lease… Molotov attacks an evil, antichrist religion and Christians beat him up for it? Sure, there’s something “sick” in the room, but it sure ain’t Molotov…

    This thread has uncovered more darkness in the hearts of so-called Christians than anything else I’ve seen in a long time. You brood of vipers!

  11. Jack said

    This, for me highlights a duality in motivation and action. Some in the “body of Christ” choose or are called by the Holy Ghost to move in many different directions.
    I saw Rambo this weekend and the idea of the missionary and the warrior is there to see on the big screen.
    I left the Methodist Church after I found out how wrong they are (in my view). A woman shouldn’t resist a rapist to even scratch his arm? Of course there are examples of the other extreme.
    I promise any home invader that crosses my doorway has a real good chance of seeing judgment day at my hand.
    The idea of a Champion, someone that stands up and faces evil and says before you persecute the weak move past me.

    AND oH YEAH that is just funny. So did he just consume the body of Muhammad. I think I see a whole new niche market next holiday. Muhammad sugar cookies, Buddha vanilla pecans, Al Gore organic biscuits, etc…

  12. Tripp said

    I agree with Rodney. My comment was in support of Molotov. The Islamic threat is alive and well on US soil. It is not a religion of peace. Are we, as Christians, going to sit back and let them take over?

  13. Molotov said

    The theater sits on edge as John Rambo’s .50 cal. tears through the enemy like a hot knife through butter. Moviegoers grit their teeth in frustration as the terrified pacifist missionary refuses to help, uselessly watching his comrades perish, paralyzed, confused.

    Suddenly, something clicks in his Christian memory, an epiphany, all the Bible stories he’d buried in his subconscious, the heroes of old: Gideon, Elijah, David, even Jesus! His political correctness had buried them, leaving only scriptures that the world would not be offended by, scriptures about love and peace and prosperity. A tear races down his cheek as he sees the valiant warrior slaying the enemy around him without fear, without reservation, and this spineless Christian feels something rumbling deep in his being…he rises.

    Slamming into a nearby enemy, the missionary tackles him to the ground, the frail Christian coward giving way to the Christian warrior, as a new boldness floods his soul. Scrambling to overcome the adversary, the missionary’s hand finds his way to a rock in the dust and seizes it.

    “I’ll bet Elijah loves this movie…” Molotov quips as he pops a handful of popcorn.

    THE END

  14. Molotov said

    Molotov analyzes the Truth Talk comments and ponders further. He takes a sip of cold coffee and pecks away at the keyboard.

    “Mike S is a muslim.” he posts.

    Somewhere in Pakistan, a jihadist throws his turban at his computer screen and curses in Arabic. He turns off his computer and pulls out a cell phone.

    “Mike,” he growls over the line. “You can’t be so obvious!”

    The End

    http://www.flamethrower.tv

  15. Mike S said

    If a simple rebuke that describes you in a way in which we all share, “Sickness” Romans 3:23, causes this kind of response then I suggest you examine your motives.

    Is a “champion” someone who instigates, thumbs their nose, uses a cattle prod so to speak, or bad humor to rile their enemy into a response? Or is a champion someone who out of love for God and their fellow man, stand up and fight for what is right regardless of the circumstances? Someone like William Wilberforce or Alexander Hamilton or Patrick Henry? Yes Jesus had anger, righteous anger and yes it was good! Would you call your anger/humor righteous? Just asking.

  16. Tripp said

    Read this article and see if you think Molotov is so extreme:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,326229,00.html

    and you people are whining about a cookie!

    You better be ready to fight for Christianity. It’s coming.

  17. Mike S said

    Yes!! Let’s fight them!! But with childish humor? Come on!!

  18. I understand both views. It seems that most here are so sold out to one side that they can’t stretch themselves to consider both. Yes, we do have cases in the bible (both testaments) of extremem action that seems unloving to our christian sensibilities. We have in both testaments extremem cases of lovingkindness as well. It seems that God has to be free to do both and needs folks willing to do one or the other.

    I’m not so much for or against this thing, though I still think the cookie thing is a crack up and that Mohammed deserves no respect. I guess I will just repeat earlier sentiments: He may well be smack in the will of God. He’s on or he’s off. He’s either called to hack the prophets and priests of Ba’al to pieces or he’s called to wash feet. Folks, we have both in one bible. Rather than attack him with judgments that sound as vitriolic as what you accuse him of, pray for the guy as if you thought he was decieved by Satan himself. Molotov, I’m not saying you are, just saying that if you’re so horrible and sick, then the “righteous and healthy” ought to manifest it through how and what they type about you.

    Speak the truth to an erring brother in love, if that’s how you see Molotov. The bible says to do it no more than twice and then let it go. So rather than everyone getting irrate and being the very thing you accuse this guy of, emulate what you think he should be in word and deed.
    mark jr.

  19. Fred said

    Rambo worship is in the Bible?

  20. ADB said

    Somebody either has never read the Bible or simply chooses to ignore large parts of it. It is the inspired, infallible word of the Living God, and we need to really think carefully before we just toss out the commands of Christ. First, Islam is a false religion and in my opinion absolutely Satanic. That out of the way, how do we deal with lots of people who hate Christians and want to see us dead? The way of the world is to nuke them until they glow and then nuke them some more. The way of the world is to go out of our way to insult them. The church fights its battles with the truth and with love. The church is the body of Christ, and our foes are ultimately against “powers and principalities” as Paul puts it. Is intentionally insulting Muslems accomplishing anything beyond making us feel good? Of course not.

    What is the ultimate goal regarding Muslems? Is it to kill them all off or to see them come to a saving knowledge of Christ? If we say that because they are unbelievers and opponents of the true faith then we have the right or even duty to insult or go fight them we are obeying the Koran not scripture. The Koran (in my understanding) commands Muslems to fight the infidel. I suppose someone might say that my position is that of a pacifist, and it most assuredly is not. I’m a strong supporter of the rich Christian tradition of just war that goes back to St. Augustine, but that has nothing to do with this issue, because one of basic tenets of this doctrine is that there must be legitimate authority for it. It does not apply to personal vigilantism.

    If the goal is to see them come to the Lord, does this tactic help? Is this likely to convert a Muslem- not in this lifetime. If the goal is to convert them we do that the same way it’s been done ever since the early church and the Roman empire- with the Gospel, with love, the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Someone mentioned self defense or the example of Elijah. Does Elijah’s actions sanction agression against our foes? Of course not, Elijah was divinely appointed a prophet and granted special insight into the workings of the Heavenly court, who was given great power- calling fire from heaven, raising the dead, call forth droughts. Additionally, his foes were not foreigners but, fellow Israelites who had fallen into apostasy. Self-defense is sanctioned in the Old Testament law, but surely provoking enemies cannot be considered self-defense.

    The command of scripture is to love and pray for our enemies. When we encounter Muslems we should show them the love of Christ, so that they may want to know “the reason for the hope that’s in me”. It’s not likey to happen any time soon, but when a Muslem (or anyone else) shows up at my door intent on killing me or my family then it’s time to rely upon a shotgun, the OT allowance for defense, and God’s mercy in case I have acted wrongly.

    I spoke rather more strongly in this post than I normally do, but that is because this issue struck a chord with me. I do not intend any ill-will against “Molotov,” and assume that he is a fellow believer, but I also feel that this is a case of the Gospel being mocked.

    A curmudgeonly pastor 🙂

  21. Tripp said

    Hey Mike…..good luck reaching out with love to the extremists when they bomb your church. Yeah, that’ll work.

  22. Mike S said

    Tripp
    I guess after you have antagonized and provoked them with your your poor attempt at humor it will be more likely.

  23. Tripp said

    Even without the humor…..the bombings are going to happen. It’s just a matter of time.

  24. Mike S said

    So let’s speed up the process?

  25. Jack said

    As the “turn the other cheek” was interpreted one Sunday school. I raised the question of personal protection. I was told the part about a sanctioned war, fought only by soldiers. I reject this idea. You can put you’re faith in the state I choose God.
    Once that argument is pushed aside, tactics begin to play a part, and I believe a Christian can be aggressive “first strike” against a known foe. Nuking isn’t my idea of a fair fight unless they raise the stakes to that point. To say we can’t even “offend” the enemy gives them an unfair advantage. ie. I’m offended if you don’t jump down this well and die ?
    I see this billboard out on the interstates The Dali lama not just praying for peace he works for it….yeah right the Chinese came he gave up and moved to the 54th floor of a swanky hotel in New York. While the Chinese soldiers pillage his home land.

  26. Jack said

    oh yeah….Rambo worship is in the Bible?….well noooo but we had this dude that slayed an entire army with a donkey’s jaw bone Samson.

  27. Molotov said

    “Our goal should be to win hearts,” the pastor sheepishly grins to the congregation. “Christians shouldn’t emulate people from the Bible that were curt or aggressive in their speech. They had a special annointing that we can’t have.”

    “Amen!” a boy shouts, causing slight chuckles among the crowd.

    “That’s right, son,” the pastor waves a peace sign at the boy. “We can’t be like anyone from the Bible with backbone…and that includes Jesus! Remember, they had a mystical annointing that you simply don’t and can’t ever have! So I better not catch any one of you calling anyone ‘dogs’ or ‘vipers’ or mocking false gods or anything else that they did! We’re to be nice to our enemies… only.”

    “But Pastor,” a man in a trucker cap calls from near the back. “Isn’t love more than just being nice? Wasn’t Elijah loving all the people who were watching by undermining a false god that was trying to win them over? And isn’t it possible to love our enemies while attacking their belief systems?”

    The pastor shakes his head as some of the congregates murmur.

    “Tom Stevens, if we attack their beliefs, like that terrible show ‘Flamethrower’ does,” grumbles of support roll out. “Then we undermine any chance of reaching these people’s hearts.”

    Tom Stevens stands to his feet.

    “Well that don’t make much sense, Pastor Joe,” he turned to the crowd. “What about justice and politics? Aren’t Christians supposed to be standing up to evil? Are we only supposed to be reaching out to muslims or can we warn others about Islam and try to help them?! And why can’t shows like ‘Flamethrower’ undermine Islam with humor anyway? Other comedy shows do it to Jesus all the time!”

    Tom steps out and begins pacing the aisle, his temperature rising.

    “Making fun has been extremely successful in undermining evil for ages! Heck, our heroes did it in the Bible! And isn’t ‘Flamethrower’ just saying that Islam is ridiculous and that people shouldn’t support it? For goodness sake, their show even promotes Jesus! Aren’t those good things?! Aren’t those Bible things?”

    Pastor Joe nervously nods to an usher.

    “Uh, thank you Tom!” two men in ties begin escorting Tom out.

    “There’s no special annointing!” Tom shouts as he’s pressed toward the exit. “We can do all things! We’re supposed to have the full Gospel…”

    “Well, wasn’t that invigorating!” Pastor Joe smiles wryly and surfs through his notes. “Now let’s get into the sermon. Turn with me to Chapter 7 of Your Best Life Now…”

    The End

  28. Mike Sears said

    Molotov
    You like attention don’t you? You ought to be in Hollywood!

  29. John said

    And I will tend to the wounded of both sides.
    Unless I’m in a bad mood that day.

    Tripp, do you actually want another war? This war? Without being able to hear your voice I can’t tell if there’s any eagerness in there, or not.
    As much as I enjoy a good fight, I have to agree with a great American who once said…. “War’s a profanity, because let’s face it, you’ve got two opposing sides trying to settle their differences by killing as many of each other as they can.”-Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf

    As for Mr. Molotov, what about “The Golden Rule”?

    “All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them, for this is the law.”-Christian

    “Not one of you is a true believer until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.”-Muslim

  30. John said

    And Mr.Molotov, it was crappy of you to do what you did to Mr.Sears in post #14, to a fellow Christian like that. Was that intended as more humor, or is it a common practice of yours to portray those who disagree with you as “one of the bad guys”? I was just wondering.
    If we had prophets in my religion, I guess I could expect to see their likeness on one of your cookies in the future, eh[smile]?

  31. Tripp said

    You guys don’t get it. The war is coming. There’s nothing you can do to stop it. I don’t want it. Nobody wants it. Someone eating a cookie is not going to speed it up. The terrorists are already here amongst us. We will be fighting for American land on American soil. It’s just a matter of time. Do you think Christians should just sit back and watch? John – unless you become a muslim they will kill you too.

  32. Rodney Talmud said

    Sheesh…What a bunch of crybabies.

    Molotov, you’re hysterical. Keep it up.

  33. Rodney said

    By the way, what’s your religion, John? The one without the prophets-what is that?

  34. Rodney said

    Tripp, you’re pretty cool, too. Islam is as serious as it gets, even though many of these guys are treating it like a bad hobby or something. It’s like the freakin UN in here! Please let Molotov fight, people!

  35. Molotov said

    Molotov gives Rodney and Tripp high fives.

    “I’m outta here like Vladimir…”

    Taking Mike’s advice, he puts on a dusty leather jacket and heads for Hollywood.

    The End

    http://www.flamethrower.tv

  36. Tripp said

    John is one of the Wiccans who regularly post on here. While us Christians may not agree with his beliefs, I have to say he handles himself quite well from what I have read. His comments are usually pretty funny.

  37. Rodney said

    Wicca, huh? Well John, Molotov knows the Golden Rule. Just because you hate an ideology does not mean you’re hating the practitioner. I think everyone is having a hard time getting that through their heads.

  38. John said

    Thank you, Tripp, although I must clarify that I am the ONLY Wiccan that posts here.My brother Summer, who is joining the military soon, is an Agnostic, and the F. L. A.,although a Pagan, is……something else.Something “new”[?].
    As far as dying goes Tripp, if it comes to that, then I will die, for I believe that it is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
    We cannot always chose the how, why, where, or when of our death, but we can choose to face death with dignity and bravery.And should it come to a death LIKE THAT, then I will fall with a gun that is out of bullets, a blunted,broken,bloody blade, and with all of my wounds in the front.
    We’ll just have to wait and see what happens, eh?
    I also vote[smile].

  39. Tripp said

    John – Thanks for clarifying. I would stand and fight with you, John….all guns blazing…..to the death.

  40. John said

    Again, I thank you.
    If it comes to that, try not to get too freaked out when “my people” meet “your people”[grin].
    The ends will justify the means,Ha!Ha!
    But hopefully it will never come to that, at least anytime real soon.

  41. anonymous said

    So much for Zechariah 4:6 I guess.

  42. John said

    Yes, well… for me Anonymous, this is all still rather hypothetical.For me, the verse would end in “spirits”[smile]. I usually try to hope for the best while preparing for the worst.

    Did not Moses once refer to the Christian God as being “..a man of war.”? If I am wrong then forgive my ignorance.It isn’t my theology.
    Good night.

  43. ADB said

    John,
    You’re right I think on that one. But that is speaking of God of course and not us. Anonymous above, might could have added this one: “vengeance is mine says the Lord, I will repay.”

  44. John said

    Yes, I have read that, although I do not remember exactly where in the bible.We’ll all have to hope for the best on this matter, I guess.There comes a point at times that all we CAN do is leave things in the hands of our Deities,[respectively].

  45. Tripp said

    Hey, who cares about Malaysia. We’ll let God sort ’em out, right? Better yet, we’ll just love them and they’ll sit down at the campfire and sing koom by ya with us. You gotta be kidding.

    Wake up….the threat is real and it’s coming to a town near you.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,328187,00.html

  46. F. L. A. said

    WE’LL LET GOD SORT THEM OUT? WERE YOU JOKING WHEN YOU MADE THAT SENTENCE?
    TOO BAD ABOUT THOSE HINDU TEMPLES.

  47. Fred said

    Some ‘conservative’ folk appear to be eager for war. They may even imagine that war is good. Some may even imagine a glorious war with Christian armies fighting holy wars against Muslim infidels. How do they differ from Muslims in other countries who are wishing and praying for the same thing in reverse?

    They live in a nation with a secular government and therefore lack the sponsorship of the ruling mullahs, that’s what the most important difference is.

  48. F. L. A. said

    NOT US.
    WE WOULD EITHER BE ON THE SIDE LINES WATCHING THE SHOW, OR INDEPENDENT MILITIA[HUGE TOOTHY GRIN].
    AT LEAST THERE WOULD BE PLENTY OF FOOD.
    FRED,IF IT IS ANY CONSOLATION TO YOU,IN TEN MILLION YEARS ABSOLUTELY NONE OF THIS WILL MATTER.

  49. Tripp said

    Yes, I was being completely facetious about the whole thing….trying to drive home the point that reaching out with love to the Muslim extremists and trying to convince them of the American way of life absolutely will not work. They do not care. Americans from all religions will need to stand together to fight this enemy….Wiccans, Mormons, Christians, Jewish, Jehovah’s Witnesses…and yes, even American Muslims. I doubt you’ll be on the sidelines watching this show. You’ll most likely be defending your turf, regarless of religious belief.

  50. F. L. A. said

    IT COULD BE A REFRESHING CHANGE, HAVING VICTIMS GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO COME TO ME, AND JOHN HAS ALL KINDS OF WEAPONS THAT HE’S BEEN JUST “ITCHING” TO TRY OUT ON THE RIGHT KIND OF PEOPLE.BUT THEY MAY MISS US ENTIRELY.IF THESE EVENTS EVEN COME TO PASS.
    WE SHALL SEE.

  51. Tripp said

    F.L.A. & John – If the extremists land on US soil can I come hide out with you guys in the swamps? I promise to pull my own weight. Haha! I won’t preach…..much….hahahaha!

  52. John said

    If you think that you can find us, suuuurrrrrree!It would be interesting.Better yet, just hang around the H.P. WILLIAMS WAYSIDE off Tamiami Trail road between Miami and Naples, and I’ll find you. Eventually. Bring some OFF and keep away from the water.You can preach all you want to if it makes you happy.We won’t care.
    A Witch, a monster, and a Christian committing patriotic mass murder together.Surely that must break some theological rule somewhere.
    And then after the war’s all over and “peace” is restored back to America again, we can get back to fighting each other like “normal”[toothy grin].

  53. Tripp said

    HaHaHa! John – you are definitely a hoot. Christian or not…I think it would be fun to hang out with you. I have heard about those waters and the gators, etc. I know better than to play around with the waters in South Florida. I bet you could tell some stories.

    Patriotic mass murder?

  54. F. L. A. said

    SHOCKING STORIES, MOST OF THEM.
    PATRIOTIC MASS MURDER? WHAT HE MEANS IS WAR.

  55. John said

    Yes, warfare.
    You don’t mind committing murder, do you Tripp? As long as the cause is “just”? And I was curious,….after all of that talk about rousing us to battle, what’s this talk in post#51 about HIDING down here as soon as the trouble starts?[grin] I thought that was funny.

  56. Tripp said

    Murder has been committed in the name of religion for thousands and thousands of years….as I’m positive you know, John. You can call it murder or war. Doesn’t matter to me. This would be defending our country against an enemy…..take religion out of the picture. It would be coward of me to hide. I would have to stand up and fight with the rest of the able-bodied men. I was just joking around with you.

  57. Mike S said

    From Greg Laurie’s Daily Devotional

    Thursday, February 7, 2008

    Not Ashamed

    “For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—Jews first and also Gentiles.”

    — Romans 1:16

    In his book, The Devaluing of America, former Secretary of Education William Bennett made this statement. “During my tenure as U. S. Secretary of Education, nothing I said seemed more unforgivable than my good words about religion. I was attacked as an Ayatollah when I supported voluntary school prayer and the posting of the Ten Commandments in school.”

    His experience is so typical of our culture today. You can say anything. You can believe anything. But if you stand up and say there are absolutes, if you say there is right and wrong and the Bible says so, then you are accused of hurting our society. You are the worst possible thing that could happen to our culture. Ironically, the very problems that are the result of society’s rejection of God are then placed at the feet of the Christian, as though the Christian has brought these troubles on our culture.

    But this is not the first time in history that Christians have become scapegoats for the ills of a culture. Christians were blamed for the burning of Rome when it was Caesar Nero who was largely responsible for its destruction.

    We live in a time when people are standing up for all sorts of causes. We have people standing up for the rights of animals. We have people standing up for the environment. We have people standing up for perverse sexual lifestyles. We have people standing up for everything imaginable, even willing to die for their cause.

    Isn’t it time that we, as Christians, stand up for what we believe? It’s time to stand up and be counted.

  58. Fred said

    It isn’t folks standing up for their beliefs that is despicable, it is their efforts to do away with the freedom that two hundred years of secular government has afforded us all.

    What it seems to be is that Laurie and his ilk are really advocating Christian theocracy; what they really bemoan is that most of the rest of us don’t agree with their political ideology.

    I say we are more free today than ever to practice our religion in the USA because we have a secular government.

  59. Mike S said

    So Fred, what freedom’s are we (Christians) trying to take away?

  60. Fred said

    The same freedoms that fundamentalist theocracies elsewhere in the world (Iraq and Iran and Saudi Arabia, etc.) take away from their subjects. The freedoms that are endowed by our Creator and that our secular laws guarantee.

    Don’t worry though, Laurie and his gang of theocrat revolutionaries aren’t likely to take Washington by storm. It looks like they will be limited to the swampy areas of the Florida peninsula where John and Tripp will be waiting for them.

  61. Mike S said

    Fred… Now that is some extreme rhetoric there! Comparing Christians to Islamic Extremeists. I guess you agree with Molotov then? That I must be a Muslim? You are losing credibility the more you write. Laurie and most devout Christians in America LOVE our constitution and our bill of rights. It’s the liberals who want to turn it into freedom from morals.

  62. F. L. A. said

    WE ALL KNEW THAT YOU WERE REALLY JOKING WITH US, TRIPP.
    IT JUST SEEMED HUMOROUS TO US.
    YES, WE KNOW ABOUT MURDER, AND USE THE TERM BROADLY.
    WE DO NOT TRY TO “BREAK IT DOWN” INTO DIFFERINT “TYPES”, LIKE SOME DO. FOR US, WHETHER YOU ARE KILLING A FLY, PULLING UP A WEED, SPEARING A HOG, CUTTING DOWN A MAN, OR CUTTING DOWN A TREE, IT’S ALL MURDER TO US, AS SO LONG AS A LIFE IS ENDED FORCEFULLY OR BEFORE IT’S NATURAL TIME.IT’S A PAGAN ABSOLUTE.
    FOR PEOPLE LIKE US, WHAT’S MORE IMPORTANT IS THE MOTIVATING FACTOR BEHIND THE MURDER/S. JOHN AND MR.SEARS DISCUSSED THIS A LITTLE ON THE “IS ABORTION MURDER?” BLOG. I DO NOT REMEMBER WHAT IT’S LISTED UNDER. CHECK IT OUT FOR A BETTER UNDERSTANDING, UNLESS YOU’VE ALREADY READ IT IN THE PAST.

  63. Mike S said

    Fred
    Would you mind backing up your accusations with some examples rather than throwing out empty rhetoric?

  64. F. L. A. said

    SORRY, TRIPP, THAT’S “IS ABORTION HOMICIDE”, LISTED UNDER “CHRISTIANITY”.
    PERHAPS FRED WAS REFFERING TO THE POSSIBILITY OF ANOTHER DARK AGES, LIKE THAT WHICH OCCURED IN MEDIEVAL EUROPE DUE TO THE CHRISTIAN THEOCRACY, COMMING INTO EXISTANCE.
    IT COULD HAPPEN AGAIN EASILY, WITH THE RIGHT LEADERS.

  65. Fred said

    Mike, certainly! In those nations where fundamentalist theocracies are extant there is well documented restrictions to personal freedoms. I’ll post a few links to sites that have a smattering of these documents. Ironically, this same type of information is often used by Christian fundamentalists here in the USA to support their own brand of totalitarian ideology. Weird, innit?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Iran

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Iraq

    That last one is about the Iraqi Constitution that is pretty creepy.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred

  66. Mike S said

    Highly unlikely FLA. While there are many extreme right wingers who don’t have a clue about the grace of Christ (just like there were in the dark ages) yet thanks to the Reformation and the instant media/internet/information explosion, that would not fly in the Christian World today. We Christians would take a stand against anyone trying to establish a theocracy by force. Contrary to Fred’s beliefs, I believe we created a democracy based upon the “Laws of God” over 200 years ago. A democracy based upon Biblical Principals. Just read your history books along with every states constitution.

  67. John said

    IT’s name is Ferox Lark Anthropophagus, known to you as F. L. A. , not to be mistaken for the abbreviation of the state of Florida.So now you know, eh?

    As far as your comment Mr. Sears, when it comes to Biblical Principals, people in charge still have to[or choose to] pick and choose exactly WHICH Biblical Principals they want to use to rule with.
    And to err is human[smile].

  68. Mike S said

    Yes you’re right John. And our founding fathers did a pretty good job of it I believe. Now these liberal judges have to go and screw with it! Better than using the Koran huh?

    Sorry about the initials. I was just too lazy to type the .’s Happy Day!! [chipped tooth smile] 🙂

  69. John said

    Yes..Well……, almost everything changes in time though[except for sharks, crocodiles, and some creepy crawlies].If it’s something beyond our control then we just have to hope for changes that benefit us and the people and things that we care about. You have chipped teeth? Me too!
    Now we have four things in common[grin]!

  70. Fred said

    “Contrary to Fred’s beliefs, I believe we created a democracy based upon the “Laws of God” over 200 years ago. A democracy based upon Biblical Principals.” – Mike S

    Mike S doesn’t speak for all Christians, and neither does he speak for me when alluding to my beliefs.

    If we had, as Mike implies, a Christian Democracy 200 years ago then those Christian founders wanted us to keep slaves, deny women’s rights, force children into labor, massacre native populations, endorse racism and so on.

    Liberal judges and politicians have delivered us from Mike S’s Christian America. Why would we want to return to the bad old days?

    Oh wait, I forgot:

    “While there are many extreme right wingers who don’t have a clue about the grace of Christ (just like there were in the dark ages) yet thanks to the Reformation and the instant media/internet/information explosion, that would not fly in the Christian World today. We Christians would take a stand against anyone trying to establish a theocracy by force.” – Mike S

    We need only a brief examination of history (recent and ancient) to dispel any such sanguinity about Christians’ immunities to the darker side of human nature.

    best regards,
    Fred

  71. F. L. A. said

    I WONDER WHAT MOLOTOV WOULD HAVE TO SAY ABOUT ALL OF THIS[HUGE SHARP TOOTHED GRIN].
    HIS RESPONSES WERE………AMUSING.
    MY THANKS TO YOU FOR THE INFORMATION YOU SUPPLIED IN POST #65 FRED.
    MOST INTERESTING.

  72. Mike S said

    Fred, those links did not do anything to back up your accusations that Christians are trying to take away freedoms. A simple read of the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, Bill of Rights, and State Constitutions will show that the founders of this country had full intentions to provide equal rights for all. Did many have a screwed up view of what that meant in regards to women, blacks etc.? Sure, but it was Christians and yes even Christian Republicans (Lincoln) who fought against slavery and such. I find it amusing that liberals love to falsely blame conservatives and Christians for atrocities in the past. Yet the liberals want to sit back and watch dictators like Sadamm Hussein and other muslims (Darfur) oppress their citizens and do nothing about it.

  73. Mike S said

    Fred Said “We need only a brief examination of history (recent and ancient) to dispel any such sanguinity about Christians’ immunities to the darker side of human nature.”

    Did I say anything about Christians being immune to sin? (draker side of human nature). Am I reading the wrong blog?

  74. Fred said

    “Fred, those links did not do anything to back up your accusations that Christians are trying to take away freedoms.” – Mike S

    They do, however, back up what I actually said: fundamentalist Christians seem to want a theocracy. I make no distinctions between fundamentalists of any stripe, Christian or Muslim, when it comes down to being ruled by them. The Muslim theocracies currently in business in and around Mesopotamia give us an idea of what our future under Christian fundamentalists would be like. A return to the stone age in many ways.

    “The Constitution, Bill of Rights, and State Constitutions will show that the founders of this country had full intentions to provide equal rights for all.” Mike S

    If the founders didn’t want us to have slaves why didn’t they put that in the Constitution? Why did we fight the War between the States? It is precisely because the founders wanted us to have slaves. Any 6th grader can tell you that for “four score and seven years” slavery was OK in the USA.

    “I find it amusing that liberals love to falsely blame conservatives and Christians for atrocities in the past.” Mike S

    It was liberals like Lincoln who helped defeat slavery. It was conservatives like Jeff Davis who fought for slavery. I find it amusing when conservatives try to deny it. Were the KKK terrorists conservative or liberal?

    “Yet the liberals want to sit back and watch dictators like Sadamm Hussein and other muslims (Darfur) oppress their citizens and do nothing about it.” – Mike S

    Time to turn off the Fox news, Mike.

    “Did I say anything about Christians being immune to sin? (draker side of human nature).” Mike S

    Thats not what I said.

    best,
    Fred

  75. Mike S said

    I guess I AM reading the wrong blog. There is definitely a major disconnect in communication here. No seeking to understand, too many assumptions and way too much rhetoric. Have a nice weekend. And that is what that means! 😮

  76. Mike S said

    By the way, in post # 58 you said “It isn’t folks standing up for their beliefs that is despicable, it is their efforts to do away with the freedom that two hundred years of secular government has afforded us all.” and I asked for some specific examples. You responded with Muslim links.

    So Fred, should we, as a society “tolerate” this kind of behavior too? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,329822,00.html

    Using liberal philosophy this is where we are headed. Some time in the future it will be intolerant to push our morals on this lady? Or maybe you think so now? Hey it’s HER daughter you know!!

  77. ADB said

    Without getting into this debate, I want to make the observation that labels like liberal and conservative are pretty hard to pin on figures in America’s past. The political parties have flipped back and forth several times, and at times they have held positions that were both liberal and conservative by today’s standards. For exapmle, Theodore Roosevelt often considered a great Republican was pretty liberal as far use of Federal power. In the days prior to WWII the Democrats which were liberal in regards to Federal power were also more diligent about preparing for an upcoming war, a position now regarded as being conservative. Lincoln was a Republican and held positions that in some cases are liberal and conservative by today’s standards. Of course his support for abolition is claimed by liberals now, but on the other hand he, and Republicans at large, were strong supporters of big business certainly not a liberal value by today’s standards.

  78. Fred said

    Go back and read my earlier posts. You’ll find in post 58 that I took exception to some of the things in that article by Laurie. I then tried to explain myself to Mike S, but Mike seems determined to mis-state whatever I say, so I won’t waste any more space repeating myself.

    If he wants me to accept his revisionist history, or the notion that we’d be better off with a Christian theocracy than a Muslim theocracy then there is little that I can add other than to say we disagree utterly. Sorry!

    But we don’t need to make these arguments so personal. If you read my first reply to Mike (post # 60), there was at least humor in it, or at least I attempted to be light hearted. There is little humor in the succeeding exchanges.

    Best Regards,
    Fred

  79. too far Christian said

    I tried to read through all the posts but got tired.

    Has any Christians here read “Tortured for Christ” or “Fox’s book of Martyrs”?

    Just curious. Especially those who beleive it is ok to mock and poke fun at those blinded by Satan.

    Funny, missionaries on the field are witnessing and evangelizing in Islamic territory, yet not with Muhammad cookies 🙂

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