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If you knew you would be persecuted would you still go to church?

Posted by truthtalklive on January 11, 2008

Alex McFarland (www.alexmcfarland.com) is sitting in the truth booth today, for more information about Southern Evangelical Seminary visit www.ses.edu

Alex is interviewing Dr. Wayne Detzler Professor at SES and Author of “Diary of an unworthy servant” Dr. Detzler is an expert on world missions and the underground church in China.

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19 Responses to “If you knew you would be persecuted would you still go to church?”

  1. John said

    If you have no enemies, then you’re not doing anything worthwhile.

  2. Christian do not suffer all that much persecution…

    Try Proclaiming a faith in the Goddess and see the persecution begin.

    From the Christians.

    Honestly, I have been continually persicuted by Christians and you always know who your friends are when your down and out…

    Working in the Ministry I haves seen those in need turned away and judged.

    Every time, I need something, rarely do I find Christian strangers willing to help… It’s people from Alternative religions, Mostly Pagans that are most hospitable and giving. As they exhibit the Gospel better than the Christians persecuting them.

    Thats a sad state for Christians but it’s the truth.

  3. BoundwithThem said

    I’d recommend Richard Wurmbrandt’s book “Tortured for Christ”. It is an excellent read to get an understanding of the persecution experienced by Christians in other nations.

    In the USA, Christians are blessed in that we do not suffer the type persecution that our brethren are suffering in the foreign fields.

    Side note: We as Christians are to mark those who proclaim a false gospel, “king” thomas being one of those, and we are to openly rebuke them and avoid them, putting them out of the assembly.

  4. Dear BoundwithThem,

    You wrote -,”we are to openly rebuke them and avoid them.” I’m not sure that Christ ever told us to avoid lost people. I think you’ll find that Christ engaged the opposing worldviews of His culture and dialogued with people and GENTLY broke down their philosophies. For help on understanding worldviews, check out http://www.quadri.wordpress.com

  5. BoundwithThem said

    AP,

    Reread my post. I said that we are to mark those who are professing to be believers and yet are preaching a false gospel, to put them out of the assembly and rebuke them openly.

    This is what Christ proclaimed through Paul in his epistles. Paul gave us an example of how to deal with the skeptics and unbelievers(those who do not profess to be believers) in Acts 17.

    There is a different way to approach wolves inside the church and unregenerates outside the church.

  6. After reading Acts 17 what I see is Paul engaging the culture with relevant topics. He did not avoid them, he went into their temple. My main point was that the previous poster wit hthe exceptionally long name did not actually proclaim any false gospel. I completely oppose his idea that proclaiming a faith in a goddesswill bring more persecution than proclaiming faith in Christ, but the rest of what he said is true. It may hurt us to hear it, but the Church in America is known for its lack of compassion. It’s true that unbelievers often live out a more loving lifestyle than Christians do. Show some respect for unbelievers and they may be more willing to lidten to your message than if you just “rebuke them and avoid them”. Again, look at what we say about culture and worldviews at http://www.quadri.wordpress.com

  7. BoundwithThem,

    For your sake you better hope your right about that… Or at least you better hope Paul isn’t the Black Priest as the Essene referred to him… If you wrong the Mother Goddess and Father God are going to paddle your bottom and make you apologize to everyone you persecuted and that may take you long, long time.

    But tell me how do you then not rebuke and persecute Jesus… As He even drank wine with Sinners? (And go right on ahead and tell me it was Welches Grape juice… Come on…)

    And tell me or show me where in the Bible does Jesus say do that?

    Your childish bigotry precedes you into the Kingdom… But don’t you fret none, I’ll let you borrow one of spare bedrooms… It has a great view over looking New Jerusalem.

    Or have you forgotten the Law of Liberty… Here James the Justus Rebukes Paul’s shallow Idea of Faith.

    (Have you personally kept the whole Law? Then how is it you being a transgressor, have become a Judge of it?)

    JAMES 2:5-20

    5. Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
    6. But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
    7. Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
    8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
    9. But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
    10. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    11. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
    12. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
    13. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
    14. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    15. If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    16. And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    (Judge not lest ye be Judged for the same weight and measure that ye Judge so shall ye be Judged)

  8. Wow HRH. Wow. I have nothing else to say. Wow. That’s um… different. Try to check out our worldview studies at http://www.quadri.wordpress.com

  9. BoundwithThem said

    AP,
    You need to read some of Thomas’ posts on other threads here before you point a finger at me for doing what Paul said to do….

  10. BoundwithThem,

    One more thing I forgot…

    QUOTE:

    “Reread my post. I said that we are to mark those who are professing to be believers and yet are preaching a false gospel, to put them out of the assembly and rebuke them openly.”

    PAUL is not a brother of JESUS, JAMES Or to any of the ESSENES.

    “If you have bitter jealousy and contentiousness in your heart, do not boast and lie against the Truth. THIS IS NOT THE WISDOM THAT COMES DOWN FROM ABOVE, but earthly, MAN MADE, DEMONIC … He who speaks against his brother and who judges his brother speaks against the Law and judges the Law. But if you judge the Law, YOU ARE NOT A DOER OF THE LAW, but a judge,” (Epistle of James 3:5-4:11).

    The following two excerpts from an earlier book, “The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception” also raise doubts as to the legitimacy of Paul’s role within the early church:
    by Michael Bajgent and Richard Leigh (Corgi Books, London, 1991)

    “… Paul is in effect the first Christian heretic, and his teachings, which become the foundation of later Christianity, are a flagrant deviation from the ‘Original’ or ‘pure’ form extolled by the leadership. Whether James, the ‘Lord’s brother,’ was literally Jesus’ blood kin or not (and everything suggests he was), it is clear that he knew Jesus…personally. So did most of the other members of the community or ‘early Church,’ in Jerusalem, including of course, Peter. When they spoke, they did so with first hand authority. Paul had never had such personal acquaintance with the figure he’d begun to regard as his ‘Saviour.’ He had only his quasi-mystical experience in the desert and the sound of a disembodied voice. For him to arrogate authority to himself on this basis is, to say the least, presumptuous. It also leads him to distort Jesus’ teachings beyond recognition, to formulate, in fact, his own highly individual and idiosyncratic theology, and then to legitimize it by spuriously ascribing it to Jesus.”

    “As things transpired, however, the mainstream of the new movement gradually coalesced, during the next three centuries, around Paul and his teachings. Thus, to the undoubted posthumous horror of James and his associates, an entirely new religion was indeed born, a religion that came to have less and less to do with its supposed founder.”

  11. BoundwithThem said

    Thomas,

    Then why in the world would Peter the apostle say that we should accept Paul’s epistles as inspired? Oh, that’s right, our Bibles are from corrupted translations 😦

    I guess the Mormon’s did get it right with their book of Mormon? Or did the Jehovah’s witnesses get it right with their translation of the Bible – New world translation? Or maybe the Muslims got it right with the Koran that fixed all the lies in our Bibles? No, wait! Dan Brown got it right with his Davinci’s Code book. Wow! 2,000 yrs of lies and finally we have the truth. It’s essene teaching with the goddess worship and Jesus having kids and only those with God’s DNA are the true ones 😦

    Thanks but I’d just rather stick with the apostle Paul on this one 🙂 He makes a lot more sense to me than the fairy tale you are promoting. No wonder people are making a religion out of Star Trek – with “Christian” religion like what “king” Thomas is espousing, what’s the difference? They’re both imaginary and man-made.

  12. Bound,

    Listen, Thomas isnot a believer in Christ. He does not profess to be a believer in Christ. This is why I say that you are dealing with him unbiblically. Look at you own example of Acts 17. These men were involved in Pagan goddess worship just like our friend Thomas. You are treating him like he’s an idiot. Is this how Christ spoke with unbelievers?

  13. Bound said

    AP,

    Again, you need to read some of Thomas’ posts on threads throughout truthtalklive forums. He does indeed claim to be a true Christian. He says our “version” is corrupted by the apostle Paul.

    The apostle Paul gave specific details on how to address Thomas, a wolf in sheeps clothing, an antiChrist, a false prophet.

    Thomas does indeed profess to be a believer in Christ. Yet, his Christ is not the Jesus of the Scriptures. Read his own words on other threads.

    How did Christ address those who professed to have the truth, yet followed after another god? The examples would be the religious leaders – professing themselves to be wise. There is a difference between being an ignorant unbeliever and being a willfully ignorant heretic and apostate.

    Let him be anathema(Paul’s words, not mine).

  14. AP Sullivan,You are the most Christ like person on this board yet.

    What many of the Christians sound like on this website mirror the friends of JOB.

    While I know we would never agree to the same faith… what I see out of you is true fruit. You actually and truly believe in the Gospel.

    There is no power in the bible outside of the Gospel.

    The rest of the ‘New Testament’ is speculation, private opinions of men and tests of EGO.

    Thank You for being Real.

    _________________________________________________________________
    _________________________________________________________________

    BoundwithThem,

    You people are so stuck on the ‘Davinci Code’… And that’s really funny.

    Again, BTW I haven’t read that book.

    I knew about this stuff long before Dan Brown published his first book.

    Try Umberto Eco’s Foucault’s Pendulum (Dan Brown is a Thief)

    And the only reason why you can even appear credible against the works of Jesus, James and the Apostles is because this is a Christian Website but I dare say you could never survive outside of your Pauline Church.

    And for the record, I do not debate scripture. They say what they say…

    Jesus say’s what he say’s and Paul say’s what he say’s… They aren’t the same no matter how you justify it.

    And just so you know when you justify something… I would check myself because the need to Justify and defend Paul is in itself a witness of error.

    I would check out the thread Pauline doctrine verse the Essene’s doctrine… By demand you want debate well debate… debate my latest post… well you cannot because there’s nothing to debate.

    It’s a wonder if any one outside the Christian camp would ever listen to you. You are a judgmental, arrogant and spiritual bully.

    Oh and another thing… While I ain’t no sheep, I am dressed in Wolves clothing.

    If I ever spoke in your church… Repentance would fall upon your congregation in a real and authentic way but it’s people like you that a visitor would walk and not listen to another word you say… I would be careful because the blood is on your hands… and it ain’t funny.

  15. Brad said

    There is no power in the bible outside of the Gospel.

    The rest of the ‘New Testament’ is speculation, private opinions of men and tests of EGO.

    This statement alone should give a clue as to what HRH believes.

    A.P., you’re wrong on this one. It is people like HRH who give Christianity a bad name, b/c he does enough, and claims enough, to try to be Christian and redefine what it should be, but doesn’t stick to the core beliefs, one of them being the Bible is the inspire, infallible, inerrant Word of God.

    You might want to really read what he says for a change, and then determine to be a little more “bullish” in your stance, and truly call a spade a spade and debunk this crap for what it is, b/c nonsense like this leads people astray all the time.

  16. Brad,

    Tell me then where is Power?

    Jesus said, (Paraphrased) “…You search the scriptures because you think there is Eternal Life… Not!”

    You wish to enslave MAN.. I wish that they be Free.

    You wish to control… I wish to ‘Be’…

    You wish to limit a persons thought, I say stretch the limits… Push the envelope… Press in.

    You say take it from me because ‘I’ know the truth… Hypocrite.

    You say Jesus tells you that Paul is telling the truth and I say you judge it with your vein imagination.

    Nothing do I proclaim but yet you do deny the only seat of Power.

    Where in the Bible is Power?

    I know for a fact you have never looked into the darkness so as to reveal in the light what truly be there…

    Be bullish in you stance all you want, I, personally do not care about what you think or believe…

    It’s the ones reading this that do not speak.. those silent observers who look on and see… See the reasons why out of the 9 million plus bodies that over 6 million bodies are buried beneath the Vatican alone from the first Inquisision.

    You are the heretics.

    You would be like that black priest and false profit Paul the father of your church by seduction through the agency of Terrorism of the Heart and Mind.

    debunk crap… You debunk Love and you dare speak as if you are someone?

    What is Authority?

    True Authority?

  17. Brad said

    Thomas,

    Seriously, I think you aren’t right in the head. Honestly. What is truly scary is that I actually think you BELIEVE what you right, not just that you like to argue.

    What about 2 Tim. 3:16 “ALL Scripture is useful for training, correcting, etc…”? That doesn’t just reference the gospels, but ALL Scripture. Then again, if you think only the gospels are true, and the rest of the NT is “speculation”, you wouldn’t believe that anyway. Perhaps you should hook up with “Red Letter Roy” – I’m sure the 2 of you could have a great time discussing Christ’s words in red only. Based on that thinking, I guess you would have to throw out the OT as well, since Christ didn’t speak there, either?

    You like to use sentence fragments, odd phrases, little tidbits here and there to try and string together a reply. How about using Scripture, Thomas? B/c honestly, what YOU say or I say doesn’t really matter. It’s what the Bible says. And I don’t see you quoting a lot of that to back up much of anything you say.

    And you don’t “know for a fact” anything about me at all, b/c we’ve never met or talked. Yet you say you “know for a fact that [I] have never looked into the darkness so as to reveal in the light what truly be there”? Empty words, Thomas, backed up by nothing but your own conjecture.

    Seriously, try using Scripture to support what you say. I think, if you try that, that you’ll find it doesn’t. Wait, maybe that’s why you don’t…

  18. “And you don’t “know for a fact” anything about me at all, b/c we’ve never met or talked. et you say you “know for a fact that [I] have never looked into the darkness so as to reveal in the light what truly be there”? Empty words, Thomas, backed up by nothing but your own conjecture.”

    My point exactly.

    What do any of us know for a Fact?

    Many Christians speak for God using the Bible as if it were a Fact never realizing the damage they cause.

    As I could restate the statement you made only removing my name…

    “Empty words, ‘PAUL’, backed up by nothing but your own conjecture.”

  19. APSullivan said

    Brad & Bound,
    I think you guys are really missing what I’m saying here. Thomas does not claim to be a Christian in the Biblical sense of the word. He believes in a Jesus not taught throughout the Scripture. Thomas is a pagan, and I don’t mean that in a insulting manner, but in the sense that he is a legitimate pagan. He believes in goddess worship. How is that professing to be a Christian? He is not giving Christianity a bad name because he does not claim to be a Christian. He holds to a few of our doctrines, he holds Jesus in hight regard for instance, but I’m sure that if we quizzed him on his doctrine, he would not admit that Jesus alone is divine, that the Bible is absolute truth, or any of the fundamentals of the Biblical faith.
    Thomas does not give Christianity a “bad name.” Please instead of calling his faith “crap”, a word I’m sure doesn’t show up in any of Paul’s writings (but I’ll reference the Greek later), we should love Thomas. Not Thomas’ faith, but Thomas himself. You two are equating Thomas with Thomas’ faith. Stick to ideas, not people.

    Thomas, you and I do not agree on theology at all, but we can still talk without hatefulness, I hope. I say this because I have some issues with what you say, because I think I see some inconsistencies. You claim that we can’t know anything “for a fact” but you also make some pretty factual claims about the reliability of the Scripture. You also say that if you were to preach, repentance would fall. How? How do we know we need to repent if we don’t know for a fact we are guilty? Just a question.

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