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A political conundrum

Posted by truthtalklive on November 13, 2007

What to do when an evangelical leader endorses a candidate you can’t support?

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30 Responses to “A political conundrum”

  1. Troy said

    I sent this out to a large email list, to CBN and others the day Robertson made the announcement to support Giuliani:

    Either it was Pat Robertson’s brainwashed clone or there really is a major disconnect today within American Christendom. An endorsement made today (11-7-07) represents a “line in the sand” that I believe we will begin to see materialize over upcoming weeks and months leading up to next year’s elections. Pat Robertson joined Rudy Giuliani in a press conference to officially endorse him in the race for the GOP presidential nomination. For a Christian leader to promote a candidate that is as liberal as the most extreme leftists America has to offer in the name of “security and safety” is faithless at best. I truly pray for Pat Robertson for he has placed his faith in a man who has proven he is completely the opposite of everything conservatives believe in. If for no other reason than Giuliani’s pro-abortion position he should be the last candidate Robertson would endorse.
    Robertson’s endorsement of Giuliani saddens but does not really surprise me. It highlights a form of idolatry that many Christians and other Americans now worship; the idol of obsessing about terrorism by “Islam-o-fascism”. Many people have been driven into fear and are willing to give up their most basic liberties for a false sense of safety. Many Christians post 9-11-01 are willing to compromise in all areas of their faith and life because of the “threat”. This extreme mentality reveals a faithless, unbiblical and dangerous mutation of the Christian worldview that influences every aspect of some believer’s lives. I really pray Christians snap out of their blind loyalty to a culture of fear that is being used to distract the body of Christ to the point of complete irrelevance in today’s America.
    Pray about whom you will support next year for President, you may be provided with a choice that is really not a choice, more so than in any other election. If the race ends up being between Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani, there will be no “lesser of two evils” for you to choose from. If Giuliani wins the nomination, I believe it may mean a victory for Clinton as true conservatives and many Christians will simply choose not to participate or support a third party.
    Christian, look at everything you can find about every one of the candidates running in the GOP before the primaries. A good start would be with a few facts about Giuliani, you do not want to be ignorant about him, I know Pat Robertson is not, and that’s really sad. – Troy

    then support Ron Paul

  2. Troy said

    And here is my article laying out some of the best reasons to support Ron Paul.http://patriotbeliever.com/dnn/Default.aspx?tabid=37&EntryID=23
    Please go read it.

    Folks, although he is a Christian, Huckabee is a tax and spend big government man based on his past, he just talks good on abortion and he was a pastor.
    Romney cannot be trusted based on his past.

    Ron Paul is becoming the man to beat Hillary. Regardless of what your opinion is on the Iraq war, the democrats will run as basically against the war (although they’ll keep us there as well). That might be the clincher as a majority of Americans do not want to stay involved in a war we have no money to pay for.
    Ron Paul wanted a declaration of war and proposed a “Letter of Marque and Reprisal” to authorize the president to fight terrorism and retaliate against those that attacked us instead all out military action against countries that had nothing to do with 9-11-01.

    I believe he could be the only Republican that can beat Hillary based on his record as well as principle.

  3. Anonymous said

    I thought Stu was going to blow a gasket today! Hey, Stu, maybe it’s time to switch to decaf?

    The more worked up Stu gets over an issue, the less ‘truth’ is ‘talked’. If I had to guess I’d say the hyperbolic ranting that accompanied this latest news wire is just more rabble rousing to please the sponsors. Oh, well. It is entertaining.

    Either we must accept the fact that ours is a secular government, or we must openly advocate theocracy. In other words, let’s trust God, and not the Governor of California or the U.S. Congress to change people’s hearts about spiritual issues.

    What a hoot!

  4. F.L.A. said

    [TOOTHY GRIN]

  5. Ted said

    HaHa! Poor Stu does get worked up, doesn’t he? My, wouldn’t be interesting if all the Christians in this nation got as worked up as he does. Instead they just sit back, all cozy and comfortable in their little lazy world. They go to church on Sunday and that’s it. They think as long as they do that they can let other people handle the dirty work. When will you people wake up and realize what’s happening in this nation? Stu – keep up the good work.

  6. Jason said

    I’m not sure why we, as Christians, aren’t all supporting Mike Huckabee. We’re not asked to support conservatives, nor are we asked to support whomever has the best record regarding taxes. We are however, supposed to support our brothers and sisters in Christ, and those who put God’s will in a place of importance. I realize that this isn’t a theocracy, but does that mean we’re absolved from having to make the world a better place according to what God wants?

    Mike Huckabee said he believes God created all, not random evolutionary processes. He’s anit-abortion and socially conservative. If you want to talk about taxes, he wants to implement the fair tax which I would say is Biblically sound in that it would encourage ppl to work and save instead of sloth and spend.

    I like some of what Ron Paul says, but honestly, the more I hear him speak, the less I see him as president. He’s starting to come off as more of a kook and USA-hater.

    Huckabee is a skilled and eloquent speaker, the kind of speaker that can capture the attention of his audience and actually teach them something. THIS is something we’ve been sorely lacking since Reagan. I don’t see Ron doing this as well.

    When it comes down to it, I think Pauls policies (especially foreign) would be damaging to the US, not to mention the fact that I don’t think he would really be able to accompish much with a house and senate that is in disagreement with him. I think Huckabee could accomplish a lot, making full use of the bully pulpit and educating the American People so that the legislative branch get their arms twisted into doing what he wants.

    To me, as a Christian, there is only one clear choice. Huckabee.

  7. Anonymous said

    Next November I’ll be voting for that candidate most likely to deny the presidency to another neo-fascist Republican; probably a Democrat.

  8. Brad said

    Everyone on here has “their” candidate – Huckabee, Paul, Thompson, etc… Not one of all the presidential candidates – not one – is perfect, and will lead this country perfectly. Not one of them has everything we’re looking for. They may have the morals but not the leadership, or they may have the leadership but not the morals. They may have religion but not leadership, or vice versa. Yet everyone tries to say that “their” candidate is the right one.

    At the end of the day, we as Christians need to prayerfully seek what God would have us do, and who He would have us vote for. For many, situational ethics will get involved (vote for the “best of the worst”, so to speak, or vote for the one who actually has a chance of winning in our mind, even if he’s not the best). You have to ask yourself – is this the person God wants me to vote for? If it’s not, don’t vote for them. If it is, vote for them.

    I believe prayer and meditating on who God would have us elect, is the key to following His will for this election.

  9. Troy said

    Jason, respectfully, I really don’t want this to sound like a Huckabee bash, but I have had to really look at him because on the surface, he has been accepted as the Christian choice by default. That should cause everyone to be vigilant in looking for fruit to back up the great speech and conservative claims.

    Simply put, Huckabee is George W. Bush with good speaking and storytelling skills. When you come right down to it, all of the Republicans want Christians to think they are brothers in Christ. Mike Huckabee is the best at conveying it and has “Pastor” on his resume. This equals default support for many Christians. But it makes him no less liberal than Bush. Remember, most evangelicals believed the same about him.

    Here’s some information for you all to verify, prayerfully:

    Without getting into to much detail, this information is readily found with simple internet searches from news articles.

    There’s a trail of ethics baggage spread all over the road from Arkansas. Government funds used for personal purposes. Problems with donations to his “charitable” organization. Scandals involving the destruction of government computer equipment when his administration left office, five formal Arkansas ethics commission reprimands following fourteen investigated claims. Is this kind of thing standard operating procedure for Governors from Arkansas? This is the kind of thing that losing campaigns are made of. The democrats will be all over these facts were he to win the nomination.

    He pardoned a convicted rapist, Wayne Dumond, a rapist who then raped and murdered a woman. There is more Arkansas scandal involving Huckabee’s refusal to explain his pardons. Again, use the internet.

    He instituted an over reaching anti-smoking law that he has stated he would like to use his “bully pulpit” to implement at the national level.

    He is openly pro amnesty for illegal aliens, to include government benefits, which means he either does not understand what illegal immigration is doing to our sovereign nation or he wants to be part of the problem. It also indicates he going to be just as inconsistent on securing our country as Bush is being, all the while continuing the war in Iraq. You cannot say you want to protect our borders and provide incentive to ignore such borders by those outside wanting in.

    And contrary to his claims, he is a tax and spender. His claim to have lowered taxes 94 times is a reach that takes into account every deduction and exemption possible. By his standard all governors lower many taxes. But almost all states able to claim this still raise tax amounts. Huckabees tax increases outweighed tax cuts in magnitude.

    I wish it weren’t so but Mike Huckabee is a pro-life liberal, pure and simple. Check out Pastor Chuck Baldwin’s article: http://www.covenantnews.com/baldwin071102.htm

    Ron Paul on the other hand, is a strict constitutionalist, pro-life (check out his book from 1990 “Challenge to Liberty”) with legislation to back it up (The Sanctity of Life Act H.R. 2597) and does not have the skeletons in his closet that can be used against him. Not to mention snowballing support that is raising money like crazy (over $4 million from individuals in 24 hours on 11-5-07) and drawing crowds like no other GOP candidate (5000 people at Independence Mall in PA recently.)

    His foreign policy is likely the only thing that makes him the one to beat a Hillary Clinton next year based on national sentiment about our current occupation of Iraq. Besides what is wrong with the founder’s idea of friends and trade with all nations that you can, entangling alliances with none?

  10. kandace said

    There is no perfect candidate. This election should cause us all to pray for God’s man for President of the USA. We need to pray for God’s mercy upon us as a nation because our collective sinfulness – our independence from God’s will in our personal lives as well as in our national life. Sometimes God provides a leader that reflects our morality: Study the book of Judges. I pray that we are not in the first wave of God’s judgement upon us as a nation.

  11. Troy said

    Kandace, there is still hope and this is still America. I agree with your call to prayer. We are in the only country in history where the people had as much influence and responsibility. The light of liberty, although dimmed, still flickers enough for Christians to reflect their relationship with Christ onto the culture of our representative republic. Yes dependence on God and independence from evil and tyranny. Pray and act believers.

  12. Jason said

    The ethics baggage and pardons I’ll look into (though pardons are always iffy and can come back to bite anyone).

    But with regard to the rest of your comments and issues, I don’t think our goal is to vote for a “conservative”, though that’s what most of us will end up doing.

    He IS pro-life, he IS pro traditional family values and he does support the fair-tax.

    Paul’s not a bad guy, but c’mon…he’s said that he thinks 911 was an “inside” job. (Cue the theme to the X-files)

    😉

    But I think we’re all in agreement that our responsibility is to seek out as many facts as possible and then humbly, prayerfully, seek God’s direction in the matter.

  13. Troy said

    Jason,
    I agree, our goal should not be to vote for a “conservative” in terms of the neo-conservatism that now controls the Republican agenda. It’s as liberal as the democratic agendas aside from a few, albeit important social aspects where the rhetoric differs. I am referring to true conservatism that requires a deep biblical morality committed to more than words. Ron Paul has a record that shows that committed morality. See: http://patriotbeliever.com/dnn/Home/tabid/37/EntryID/23/Default.aspx

    Jason, please give specifically when Ron Paul said he thought 911 was an “inside” job? Please give the source sir.
    He has said he would support a new investigation because “I never trust anything the government does when they do an investigation… because too often I think there’s an area that the government covered up, whether it’s the Kennedy Assassination or whatever…” he then said he would support a new investigation as long as it was not doing the same thing the 9-11 Commission did, or we’d be “spinning our wheels”.

    Ron Paul has a clear and healthy distrust for federal government in general, as did the founding fathers, both for very good reasons. You might want to listen to this interview by Steve Gill with Paul asking this specific question (about 2/3 of the way into the audio): http://www.ronpaulaudio.com/rpaudio/RonPaulSteveGillShowinterview100407.mp3

    So again, please provide your source for your claim. Everyone needs that information if you have something different, as you claim.

  14. stu said

    so here’s a quesiton for you: if one of these guys does NOT win the primary and Romney does, Would you get behind him as the republican candidate?
    What about Rudy?

  15. ADB said

    That’s a very pertinent question. We can claim to take the moral high ground and in so doing make ourselves totally irrelevant by working so hard to find the perfect candidate that we never support anyone.

  16. kandace said

    Stu,
    Although there are philosophical differences between myself and Romney and Rudy, I will support them if they are the best choice available. America is at a crossroad, very possibly experiencing the first wave of divine judgement as in the book of Judges. I’ve been praying that a solid Christian candidate would emerge, but if not, I must vote for the most electable person. I realize this seems like a compromise, but we are commanded to participate in the political arena in order to engage the culture for Jesus Christ. I don’t mean browbeating them but lovingly offering another viewpoint in the marketplace of ideas.

  17. stu said

    what about those that say the ‘lesser of 2 evils’ is still evil.

    Personally I can see how that applies to MArriage and other choices, but is it a relevant argument wheh dealing with politics?

    Plus, couldn’t we find something evil lingering in the past of just about any candidate, to make that cliche’ apply to them?

  18. kandace said

    Stu,

    I see where you’re going with the “lesser of the 2 evils still being evil” argument. If I took that attitude to the nth degree, I would never obey God’s firm command to engage the culture with the Gospel.

    It is too easy to complain, stay within my ivory tower while the world goes down the spiral staircase toward hell. God has called be to be an ambassador for Christ which means that I must represent God to the USA civilization and intercede to God for the USA.
    That does not mean that I have to agree with everything that happens but I must participate within the marketplace of ideas or risk losing the right to do so for those who follow behind me, generationally speaking.

  19. Troy said

    Stu, to answer your question, if Romney or (especially) Giuliani were to get the nomination, I personally could not support either not only because of the potential problems related to their abortion stances (or more lack there of) but also due to their obvious willingness to ignore their oaths of office.

    Both indicated in their answers at the last debate that lawyers and advisers would be their primary source for the legality of their actions as President of the United States. I would not support either for that reason to start with. The bottom line is they are both big government liberals and neither of them have any fruit to back up their rhetoric.

  20. Troy said

    … and the “lesser of two evils” mentality has effectively neutered the Christian voting influence in America. If the church can break the nasty bondage of that, there is hope for electing true Christians to high offices.

  21. kandace said

    Troy,

    I see what you’re saying. Ron Paul may be a fine person to consider, but he has not made his presence known on the national stage. I’ve been searching for a person to support who is electable. I do not want to throw away my vote and risk Hillary being “elected” President. I say “elected” because, as I see it, Hillary in the White House is another way for Bill to serve a third term. Hillary has had no political experience of her own (other than a short stint as a senator from New York).
    Thus, she will draw upon the experience of her husband – Bill. The result will be a plagerized presidency.

  22. Troy said

    Kandace, Hillary Clinton will be hard for the “stay-at-war” Republican party to beat next year with most of the Republican candidates.

    Add into the mix the fact that even the “fair and balanced” news seems to be obsessed with her, to include Hannity, Limbaugh and other “conservatives” have openly stated they think she is going to win, Bush has offered advice to her and the fact that the evangelicals are being split by endorsements of pro-abortion candidates by major supposedly Christian leaders and groups.

    Ron Paul is likely the only Republican that can beat Hillary Clinton next year because, although he voted for the Afghanistan war to track down those responsible for 9-11, he has been against the Iraq war from the beginning. I believe the Democrats will exploit the national sentiment against how the Iraq war is going and the Republicans will have a poor showing, unless Paul is the nominee.

    As for his being electable, despite still being treated like a little known candidate by some in the mainstream press, his fund raising has proven he has huge support which lines up more with his internet popularity. He wins most online polls, more local GOP straw polls than not and raised over $4.3 million in one day a few weeks ago – all from individuals (the average was $98.00 per donor). He was the only GOP candidate to make major financial gains in the last quarter’s contributions. He even accounted for over half of all contributions coming from military and military veterans, out of all candidates. Consider also that unlike many of the other campaigns, Paul has no debt.

    Check him out. Check out his voting record in Congress, his pro-life stance backed up by his votes, his book about the abortion issue from 1990 “Challenge to Liberty” written from a pro-life OB-GYN’s perspective, who has delivered over 4000 babies, and his pro-life legislation (Sanctity of Life Act for starters). Check out his not taking government funds in his private OB-GYN medical practice but instead offering poor people alternatives or free service himself. Check out his returning some of his Congressional office budget funds each year (unheard of on “the Hill”). There are tons of reasons to support Ron Paul over every other Republican or third party candidate, not to mention the Hillary factor. He unites people from every party and walk against what is going on. I personally helped individuals from other parties change their voter registration just to vote for him. So check him out.

  23. Mike Sears said

    We are not accepted (considered Holy, justified, sanctified)based on our performance.

    We perform because we have been accepted.

  24. Mike Sears said

    oops! posted in the wrong spot!

  25. Ted said

    Here is proof that Hillary will stop at nothing to get elected. You won’t see this in the mainstream news media:

    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2007/11/cnn-plants-questions-to-protect-hillary.html

  26. Fred said

    Here’s proof that Bush stops at nothing to spread misinformation and lies in order to achieve his political agenda. You won’t see this on Fox News:

    http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/people/jeffgannon

  27. Ted said

    I won’t disagree with you on that, Fred.

  28. Troy said

    Fred and Ted are both right.

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