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Is Abortion Homicide?

Posted by truthtalklive on October 4, 2007

Today’s Guest: Greg Koukle Author, Apologist, and Talk Show Host.

Check out his site str.org 

North Carolina listeners, Greg will be at the Salem Pregnancy Care Center’s banquet this Tuesday night.

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48 Responses to “Is Abortion Homicide?”

  1. Brad said

    Yes.

  2. ADB said

    Yep, I agree. Without really reading back through the OT law on killing, I suspect that one could make a good case that it would justifiable in the event that the mother would die in childbirth (this is rare though.)

  3. Anonymous said

    It’s debatable.

  4. John said

    I’m not so sure about that Anonymous.
    According to the definition of homicide, it is.Because it’s the killing of HUMAN flesh,HUMAN life.
    Of couse this comes from someone who thinks of plants and other animals as people, and that pulling weeds in the garden and slapping Deerflies on my legs is murder.So…………

  5. Anonymous said

    Is a fertilized egg a human being?

  6. John said

    Personaly, I say no, it is not.Only human flesh.But there are many types of abortions, and when I hear and think of the word abortion I usually think of something a little more “long term”,like a fetuse, or a partial birth abortion.What you’re describing I would simply think of as harvesting an egg.

  7. Mike Sears said

    I bet you’re glad your mom didn’t think of you as just an inconvenient fertilized egg and do away with you. Oops I should not have refered to you as “you”, rather “it” since “it” came from simply a fertilized egg.

  8. Mike Sears said

    I said this to make a point. I really believe that you were intimately known by God before you were even conceived and that you were then and are now precious to God. Psalm 139.

  9. John said

    Awwwwww, I’m touched.
    Calling me an “IT”, is closer to the truth than you may have realised! If she had, though, I still would have come into existance,I think.Just through someone else.
    Or were you refering to Anonymous?

  10. Mike Sears said

    So John, do you think that “people” are just random spirits floating around waiting for a new egg to get fertilized and brought to fruition? There is a big difference in our answers here. I noticed you said “I think.” The big difference is I am confident and peacefully assured that “I know.” That is a wonderful place to be in life, having a blessed assurance and confidence in the God that I have come to know through His precious Son made manifest in body and in revealed Word. It all depends on where we place the ultimate authority in our life. While many make themselves; their knowledge and their feelings, the ultimate authority, I have come to know and trust THE Utlimate Authority of all who is inmutable, unchanging, all powerful. I pray that you too will someday have the peace and blessed assurance of “Knowing”, the One who paid it all so that you could have this assurance of eternal life with Him.

  11. John said

    Well goody for you, Mr.Sears. Keep praying for me if it pleases you.I too am confident and peacefully assured about what I “know”.
    As “people” go, many of the people that I know and work with ARE spirits.They are a diverse group.When I used the words “I think”,I was trying to make allowances for people who believed differently than myself.You see, I don’t try to speak for others souls too much.
    You can keep you’re concept of eternal life with the One. It is not for me.
    “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”-Shakespeare

  12. Will D said

    Life begins at conception. An embryo, a fertilized egg, is a human being. Any other start to life is merely arbitrary. At conception, you have a a human being with a completely different set of DNA, and an embryo never to be duplicated. A sperm by itself has never become a human being, and an egg by itself has never become a human being, but a fertilized egg becomes a born human being billions of times a year.

    Abortion is never okay, but always wrong. This includes rape, incest, and if the mothers life is at risk. The only reason to be against abortion is if you believe it is murder. Murder is not okay if the child’s father is a criminal. God didn’t say, “Do not murder, except…”

    If a woman’s life is at risk, you don’t stop to kill the baby, but you remove the living baby to save the mother, and do everything medically possible to save the living child. Technology has improved so much, babies are being born as early as 20 weeks and surviving for long lives. It’s not out of the question for an ectopic pregnancy to one day be medically able to be planted in an artificial womb, or even a mother. Again, you don’t stop to kill a baby because the mother’s life is at risk. You remove a living baby to save the mother, and do everything medically possible to save the living baby, no matter how premature.

  13. Troy said

    Abortion is an act of violence, murder, on an unborn human, which is a human at conception.

  14. John said

    But the religion of Christianity has a long history of violence and murder,so is the real and only problem that you have with abortions the fact that it is carried out against the unborn?And if so, then why?
    If you think that babies are conceived and born in sin anyway because of you’re Gods curse of original sin, then is it because the unborn had no chance to be “saved”?

  15. Mike Sears said

    Why? “Thou shall not murder”, unborn or not, pretty much sums it up!

    Just because a certain religion or philosophy has a history of wrongful violence and death, “murder”, that does not define the religion, it only defines the people who wrongfully acted in the “name” of that religion or philosophy. Augustine said, “You should never judge a philosophy by its abuse.”

  16. John said

    Not even Moses himself was able to make it through one whole day following that commandment.And his people [the ones he let live] continued to break it again, and again, and again….and others.
    True, he wasn’t a Christian, but you Christians hold him in such high esteem,and the rule came from you’re God, who didn’t seem to mind at all. So just how darn important could the rule have been?If the people[prophets, popes, priests, kings,…or deities] that are held in high esteem in a religion or philosophy commit or condone the acts of violence,murder,genocide,etc., then it DOES define the religion or philosophy.Would you still feel as you do if we where discussing Muslim extremist? Or Satanism?
    I often wondered why modern Christians continued to [try and] follow and stress the importance of[some of] the moral rules of someone else’s religion.Is it because Christianity sprang out of Judaism?Just wondering.

  17. Mike Sears said

    I think your missing a major message of the Bible. That people, even God’s chosen leaders are sinful. The Bible certainly does not hide that point. As a matter of fact, it is quite clear that God has used murderers, adulterers, blasphemers, etc. to carry out His purposes. God does mind sin, even when that sin is committed by one of His own chosen leaders. As a matter of fact He hates it, but that does not stop Him from using that sinful act (regardless of whether it was committed by one of His followers or one of His enemies) to fulfill His plans.

    When the leaders of the Catholic Church were selling indulgences and the forgiveness of sins they were abusing the religion (or philosphy). Just because they were leaders they were NOT the ones who “defined” Christianity, Jesus Christ defined Christianity, period. The Bible, defines Christianity. When someone who claims to be a Wiccan, (I think that is what you claim right?) and sacrifices cats on an altar in the name of that religion, are they defining Wiccans? No, they are abusing the belief system right? When a televangelist spreads a false gospel in attempt to get you to send money, that does not define Christianity, it is an abuse.

    You say that Christianity sprang out of Judaism, actually, Christianity is the total fulfillment of Judaism. And yes, Moses IS actually a Christian, as is Abraham. They believed the promise that was to be fulfilled. They were looking forward to the promise and we have the benefit of looking back.

  18. John said

    I strongly doubt that any Jew would agree with what you have to say about Judaism.The Jews that I’ve interviewed in the past teach a VERY different lesson.
    Do you also think that you’re religion is the worlds first, and that the earth is under twenty thousand years old?I would not be surprised.

    And some of us Wiccans, like me, do still preform blood sacrifice.It depends on the denomination and holiday, which would make it acceptable.

  19. Mike Sears said

    I wasn’t aware that wiccans practiced blood sacrifices. Sorry, bad analogy then. So… please explain what a blood sacrifice achieves in the wiccan faith. Why would one be necessary?

  20. Mike Sears said

    In regards to the Christian Religion, yes I do think it is the world’s first. Colossians 1 states my point the most clearly speaking of Jesus Christ; “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

    Regarding the age of the earth, it’s really not important, interesting maybe, but not critical to the Christian faith.

  21. Mike Sears said

    How would a wiccan justify blood sacrifice when, as you state “pulling weeds in the garden and slapping Deerflies on my legs is murder.So…………”??

  22. John said

    This is starting to sound like the “Interview with a Wiccan” site reborn.
    As to reply #20, I suspected as much.It makes you all the more interesting to me.
    As to the other two, you must understand that I really only represent MY OWN form of the religion.People like me are very rare these days, going extinct, really.I’m much more primeval and live much closer to nature than most modern Wiccans.Many of them would probably consider me to be a savage,so bear that in mind.
    And for another thing, I never said that I was opposed to murder or violence.In fact, I even condone it, depending on the motivation and circumstances involved.If you Know anything at all about the Celts then you know that they were warriors and hunters. Many of the modern Wiccan denominations have, ironically, seemed to have fallen into the trend of vegetarianism or [the worst, most annoying]veganism, in their quest for living in harmony with the earth.As if killing plant life isn’t killing, and predators don’t exist.And here I am still killing and butchering my own meat,and using the guts and bones to feed my gardens.I think they hate people like me.Suburbanite sissies.Oh well. There are many types of blood sacrifice, and it can be anything from a drop of my own blood from a pin prick to the ending of a life.I work with a lot of nature spirits.Certain Witches attract certain spirits, so the ones that I work with are more primal.And one of the many things that they like are blood, because of all of the energy that it contains.The gift of a life is the ULTIMATE GIFT that anyone could ever hope to give.You should understand that, as a Christian.Right?If I do this, it’s almost always as a show of my gratitude for some “gift” from my deities,usually,but not always on an appointed holiday.I like to use the chickens that I raise, because then, later, I can eat the chicken. Or when I am fishing or hunting I’ll bless and dedicate the life of my victims as an offering.I always kill as quickly as possible and pray for the souls of my victims.It’s very respectful, not like they show in lame movies, with a bound, screaming victim who gets a dagger in the chest!More like what the Native Americans used to do.
    So you see, murder, death, has a place within MY religious lifestyle, just as it has a place within untamed nature.The God of Wicca is, after all, a God of hunting.But all things change,in time.Perhaps one day,far into the future when my kind are dead,the old ways will die with us,and the newer, more p.c. versions of the “Old Religion” will [pretend to] forget about our ways.And that will be the end of it.But not yet!
    Does this answer you’re questions?

  23. Summer said

    Sometimes you’re too honest, John.

  24. Mike Sears said

    I think the younger “IM” generation would say “TMI” to that. That just breaks my heart for you. I can only pray that you may come to know Christ and the power of His ressurection. He calls me at this point, to “shake the dust from my sandles”, (I don’t really wear sandles though) and move on to plant, fertilize and water in other places. Unless of course, you ever become truly interested in exploring God’s Word for truth with an open mind, I am happy to explore with you.

  25. Troy said

    See how easy it is to avoid a question. The question was, is abortion homicide? Anyone who claims to be a Christian and bases that claim on the Bible will say it is (I would hope). Most Christians will also acknowledge the difference between murder and killing as well. But to debate the justification of murder and violence seems like an intentional distraction from the issue. Is someone here actually saying that murdering any human being is justifiable? And to be clear, the problem with abortion is that it is murder pure and simple, which is not justifiable in scripture. The fact that it is the murder of unborn children makes it particularly revolting for most people, but not any less or more sinful than any other murder. Murder causes death but death is not always caused by murder, so someone is confused or intentionally using double speak to sound enlightened.

  26. John said

    To Summer: Deal with it.
    To Mike Sears:A little out of our league are we? I’m not hip enough to know what “IM” and “TMI” mean.What specifically is breaking you’re heart?I wonder,what exactly you were expecting to get as an answer.Save you’re prayers for someone who wants them.There are plenty of needy Christians in the world.

  27. Mike Sears said

    IM = Instant Messaging, TMI = Too Much Information

    Saddened by the state of your heart. Saddened by the blindness of your need for a savior. “The Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing”. You’re right, plenty of needy Christians. We all (not just Christians) share a NEED to be reconciled with God, true Christians realize that need and trust in the only balm that heals, Jesus Christ. At some point in your life/death you will come to face the reality of a sinful heart (which we all have), I just pray (whether you want prayer or not) that you will come to realize your need and trust Christ before it’s too late. Peace

  28. Anonymous said

    So, you decided to get you’re “sandles dusty” again. T.M.I.? I didn’t want you to be confused.Becides,many other people may read this and want to know. I’m sure in you’re little universe that was a touching, heartfelt, reply, but to me it’s silly.Did I ever claim to not have a “sinful” heart? No.I am well aware of what I am. Just think what you want to think, and pray, if it pleases you.I personaly pray at least two times a day.Don’t ask about that, you would NEVER understand.”Peace” to you too, Mr.Sears.

  29. Anonymous said

    I was simply answering the question you asked me. Naturally, it’s silly to you. Just as God said it would be. 1 Corinthians 1:23

  30. Mike Sears said

    I was simply answering the question you asked me. Naturally, it’s silly to you. Just as God said it would be. 1 Corinthians 1:23

  31. Anonymous said

    If, as you say, a fertilized egg is a human being, and all human beings are precious to God, and that it is irrelevant if the fertilization occurs consensually, or accidentally, then is contraception not a sin?

  32. ADB said

    Significant difference between abortion and contraception. With most forms of contraception there is never fertilization, hence no life. Human life is indeed precious to God because we are created in his image. The individual egg or sperm obviously does not constitute a human being.

  33. Anonymous said

    So, we can determine if and when we are to reproduce without offending the Almighty?

  34. John said

    To Mike Sears: Big sigh, smile, eyes rolling and head slowly shaking.

  35. John said

    The Catholic Church tried forcing that on the peasants during the Dark Ages,Anonymous, and it worked out horribly.

  36. ADB said

    Sarcasm duly noted anonymous. Simply put, no Protestant church (that I can think of at least) has ever spoken out against contraception because there is no Biblical warrant for its prohibition. If your line of reasoning is simply to stir the pot, so to speak, and do not come from a Christian background I realize that mentioning scriptural precedent etc. does no good in a discussion like this.

  37. Mike Sears said

    Anonymous; Yes, absolutely. It’s all part of God’s plan and He will work out even the wrong decisions that anyone makes to His sovereign and providential glory. That’s why it’s such a great privilege to call Him Abba (Daddy) Father.

  38. Anonymous said

    OK, so the issue isn’t if women can choose when to reproduce but what she can do to prevent it.

    I knew you guys were pro-choice.

  39. Mike Sears said

    They can certainly choose when or when not to have sex yes. They can also choose to utilize birth control as a preventative measure. However, Abortion as a birth control method is simply murder for convenience. When it begins to involve another human being/person that is a completely different issue.

  40. Anonymous said

    So why did God smite Onan?

  41. John said

    I belive that the main reason that you’re God murdered Onan is because he dared to try and disobey an order of the God.True, he used about the WORST method of birth control known to man[I think that God still could have made it work, despite the defiance],but it’s the princible of the thing.You’re God murdered[or had murdered] lots of people, if the bible is to be taken literally, and this is either an evil thing or a good thing, depending on who you are.It’s one of those,”Do as I say, not as I do” kind of things.
    But, you know all of this already.
    Sorry to butt in.Please, continue.

  42. Mike Sears said

    The Bible says it was because Onan did what was evil in God’s sight. The text does not necessarily pin point this specific activity as evil, while it is probably a safe assumption. Did God smite him specfically because of this act? I don’t think we can reasonably come to that conclusion based upon the text. The greater context here is of course God’s perfection requirements. His obedience requirements. God is omniscient, perfect, holy and we are not. If we believe and acknowledge this, who are we to judge God? He has proven Himself trustworthy.

  43. John said

    If you say so. My, but you’re sandals are getting filthy!

  44. Brett said

    Response to Troy, October 11th post “Abortion is an act of violence, murder, on an unborn human, which is a human at conception”. AMEN Troy! Why is this even debated in the Christian Church? Probably stems from the lie coming from the pulpit “do not judge”. THE BABY HAS ITS OWN DNA. THE BABY HAS ITS OWN HEARTBEAT. IF IT’S NOT A BABY THEN THE WOMAN IS NOT PREGNANT. IF THE BABY IS NOT A HUMAN BEING AT CONCEPTION THEN TELL ME, WHAT SPECIES IS IT? Shame on George W. Bush for nominating JUSTICES ROBERTS AND ALITO. SHAME ON THESE MEN AND THIS COURT FOR REMOVING PERSONHOOD FROM THE UNBORN CHILD IN GONZALEZ V. CARHART (APRIL 2007) AND SHAME ON DR. DOBSON, JAY SEKULOW, NATIONAL RIGHT TO LIFE, ETC. FOR CHEERLEADING THE COURT IN THIS HORRIFIC RULING. May Almighty God, our Creator and Savior, have mercy on our wickedness.

  45. Nanna said

    Is abortion murder? Absolutely yes.

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