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Is Mormonism another Christian Denomination

Posted by truthtalklive on September 21, 2007

Host: Alex McFarland, President of Southern Evangelical Semenary, stands in for Stu. (alexmcfarland.com)

Guest: David Neilsen A former Morman who served as a Morman Missionary.

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181 Responses to “Is Mormonism another Christian Denomination”

  1. Brad said

    Absolutely not – it is completely different than Christianity. The church in general needs to do a much better job making sure that it’s members understand that. Unfortunately, that means the church in general needs to acknowledge that Mormons aren’t Christian, as well, which is unfortunately something that many of them do not realize, or are unwilling to say.

  2. Anonymous said

    “…it is completely different than Christianity.” – Brad

    Hyperbole. They are similar in many ways.

    Another wide shot from Brad.

  3. John said

    One thing that always troubled me about the religion of Christianity was how some Christians are always focusing on the little differences, instead of focusing on all of the similarities that bond all of the Christian denominations together as brothers and sisters in Christ.Imagine how absolutely powerful Christianity
    as a whole would be if Christians worked harder at building bridges instead of walls.

  4. Brad said

    John,

    What do you suggest Christians do, in regards to Mormons? Do you believe that they are worshiping a different Jesus than Christians do? If so, how do you propose that a bridge be built? It is especially difficult, b/c most Mormons do not believe themselves to be worshiping a different Jesus than Christians, thus they don’t believe there even IS a wall up!

  5. John said

    You’re concrete is still damp enough to hold another row or two of bricks, if you’d like to stack up some more.

  6. ADB said

    No Mormons do not worship a different Jesus. There’s only one Jesus. They, in my opinion worship wrongly, and have false beliefs. But frankly, I get a little tired of all the discussion of who is and who isn’t a Christian. I don’t need someone to lecture me about doctrine either. It’s just that all of the effort to determine who’s going to Hell does not do anything at all except make the people who are doing the proclaiming feel good about themselves; which is far from true Christian humility. Yes I do believe that Hell is real, but I also know that figuring out who’s going to be there is “way above my pay grade.” Perhaps instead of puffing ourselves up by happily throwing folks into the fiery pit, we should show some genuine Christian love and work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

    A curmudgeonly pastor.

  7. Mike Sears said

    Great Post ADB! While we are certainly called to stand for truth, we must do so in humility and love!! Philippians 2:1-13

  8. Apparently ADB and Mike Sears have problems with Jesus own Sermon on the Mount:

    They’ll quote these verses:

    1″Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

    2″For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

    3″Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

    4″Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?

    5″You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

    but omit this one:

    6″Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

    —-If we aren’t supposed to judge others at all, then how, pray tell, gentlemen, are we supposed to know what is “swine’ and is not?

    And notice that Jesus presumes we can tell the difference between true and false teachers in this same sermon:

    15″Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

    16″You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

    17″So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.

    18″A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

    19″Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

    20″So then, you will know them by their fruits.

    21″Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

    22″Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

    23″And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

    And here’s a sampling of what the rest of Scripture has to say about false teachers and apostates:

    Acts 8 (New International Version)

    20Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

    1 Timothy 1 (New International Version)

    8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

    Hebrews 10 (New International Version)

    26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    2 Peter 2 (New International Version)

    1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

    4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.

    Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

    13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

    17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

    Jude 1 (New International Version)

    3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

    8In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

    11Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

    12These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

    14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

    And it will suffice to say that there are numerous taunt songs in Scripture directed toward such persons.

    To say as ADB and Mike Sears have said is simply to be more pious than the Bible, a version of legalism that imposes unScriptural speech codes on others while claiming to be “nonjudgemental,” but it’s nice to hear them admit their latitudinarian ethics for all to see.

    Mormons, simply put, are not Christians if indeed they deny fundamental doctrines. If they deny that Jesus is fully God and fully man, they thereby deny fundamental doctrine. If they are polytheistic (and they admittedly are) they thereby forfeit the right to be called Christian on the simple basis that Christianity is monotheistic. If they teach a gospel that denies justification by faith alone, they fall under the anathema of a false gospel in Galatians, or do ADB and Mr. Sears challenge Apostolic testimony of what constitutes truth and falsehood? If they feel that we shouldn’t talk about who and who does not go to hell, particularly ADB, a pastor, I suppose we can assume without benefit of further argument that they don’t bother with evangelism. The very concept demands we have some idea of who is a target of evangelism and who is not.

  9. One thing that always troubled me about the religion of Christianity was how some Christians are always focusing on the little differences, instead of focusing on all of the similarities that bond all of the Christian denominations together as brothers and sisters in Christ.Imagine how absolutely powerful Christianity
    as a whole would be if Christians worked harder at building bridges instead of walls.

    This is question begging. Where is the supporting argument that Mormons are “just another denomination?”

    Imagine how powerful Christianity would be if people learned how to distinguish between levels and types of error and yet unite around the fundamental truths of basic Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology, and justification by faith alone through grace; imagine what it would be like if Christians learned what it takes to have a credible profession of faith and held people true to their baptismal vows; it would be like the time of High Protestant Orthodoxy. It would be like the era of the AnteNicene Church.

    Mormon theology teaches that god is only one of countless gods, that he used to be a man on another planet, that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of that god on that world, and that he brought one of his wives to this world with whom he produces spirit children who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus. Second was Satan, and then we all followed. But, the Bible says that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5), that God has eternally been God (Psalm 90:2) — which means he was never a man on another planet. Since the Bible denies the existence of other gods (and goddesses), the idea that Jesus is the product of a god and goddess couple is rejected. The Bible tells us that Jesus The Jesus of Mormonism is definitely not the same Jesus of the Bible. Therefore, faith in the Mormon Jesus, is faith misplaced because the Mormon Jesus doesn’t exist.

    Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross itself (and receiving it by faith) is not sufficient to bring forgiveness of sins. It teaches that the forgiveness of sins is obtained though a cooperative effort with God; that is, we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church in order to obtain forgiveness. Consider James Talmage, a very important Mormon figure who said, “The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil,” (Articles, p. 432), and “Hence the justice of the scriptural doctrine that salvation comes to the individual only through obedience,” (Articles, p. 81). This contradicts the biblical doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9) and the doctrine that works are not part of our salvation but a result of them (Rom. 4:5, James 2:14-18).

    Mormonism further states that salvation is twofold. It maintains that salvation is both forgiveness of sins and universal resurrection. So when a Mormon speaks of salvation by grace, he is usually referring to universal resurrection. But the Bible speaks of salvation as the forgiveness of sins, not simple universal resurrection. Where Mormonism states that forgiveness of sins is not by faith alone, the Bible does teaches it is by faith alone.

  10. ADB said

    I figured this would come. I think you missed my point entirely. I do not disagree that they have false beliefs and practices, and in fact the old “just not lest ye be judged” is one of the most misused verses in the Bible, because we are expected to “test the spirits.” Yes we must be discriminating. My point was that threads like this one where the main point seems to be deciding who is going to Hell or not are not particularly helpful because they are not rooted in any real evangelistic desire, but seem more motivated by a desire to feel good about ourselves.

  11. Mike Sears said

    Gene said: “To say as ADB and Mike Sears have said is simply to be more pious than the Bible, a version of legalism that imposes unscriptural speech codes on others while claiming to be “nonjudgemental,” but it’s nice to hear them admit their latitudinarian ethics for all to see.”

    So you consider Philippians 2:1-13 “unscriptural speech code huh?” I don’t disagree with ANY scripture. I wholeheartedly agree with all of the scripture you posted, right along with Philippians. The point that I see ADB making is that this kind of “witness” over a blog especially, is not effective witnessing. It is personal interaction “speaking the truth in love”, with humility that draws others to Christ. Ravi Zacharias says, “How do you present the sweet savor of the person of Christ, when the method you use cuts them down to the knees? How do you present the love of God if your method is not loving? Conviction that is not ungirded by love, makes the possessor of that conviction obnoxious and the dogma possessed becomes repulsive.”

    Our time is much better spent personally engaging with and caring for those who need to hear the truth, and earning the right to speak it boldly but to do so with humility and love. It is difficult to do. I have learned that written debates don’t work very well as a sole witness tool. I pray for your witness to be effective in truth AND love!!

  12. Greg said

    It is correct to say that this blogging is not the most effective witness tool, but it is not correct to say that it is not a healthy exercise debate on doctrine within the Christian community. We need to test the spirits and discern the truth of the faith so that we can be equipped to effectively minister the truth of salvation to a confused world. My Christian brothers, we do need to bring the truth in love and not bicker amongst ourselves with jabbing tones and prideful motives. Let’s show the world that the truth can be spoken without the sarcasm and that the true Jesus who came to earth, God incarnate, was not sarcastic, underhanded or denigrating, but still unashamedly and authoritatively brought truth to all so that others should live. The bible verses that were stated by genembridges were spot on and should convict all in this conversation. They convicted me. I’ve been unloving and obnoxious in my testimony on many occasions and I’ve committed many of the sins listed in the bible. Jesus is God and He is the only God. Please be careful as ADB mentioned in how we present the truth, but don’t cease to contend for the faith. We should reason together using the word of God at every argument and every rebuttal without judgmental tones since we are all guilty and imperfect. AND we should use these points of doctrine as stated in the Word to make clear points of what true doctrine is so that we can present it to the world with the loving authority of Jesus weeping and praying for those who do not receive, yet continually searching to check our own understanding so we stay on track. Thank you ADB and genebridges for bringing up those valid points and the scriptures that clearly present them. I was convicted and blessed by them.
    Greg

  13. Mike Sears said

    I’ll say Amen to that Greg! Thanks for your encouragement and wise words!!

  14. ADB said

    Well put, Greg, and I appreciate your sentiments. This I suspect is an “intramural” conversation in that I imagine we are all pretty evangelically minded Christians. I might be wrong but I guess we would probably all believe that there is no salvation outside Christ’s atoning work, and that the Bible is the final authority on all matters of faith and practice. I too enjoy reading Gene’s comments because he does seem to be very well read. One more point related to Mormons is that I have a special place in my heart for them. There was a good number of them where I grew up, and I found them to be among the most friendly, ethical folks you could ever see (granted of course that no human is ever truly righteous in himself). This makes it all the more tragic that they have some beliefs that are so very false (we becoming gods when we die, Christ and Lucifer being brothers, our souls pre-existing our bodies, etc. etc.). Anyway that is enough for now.

    Still a curmudgeon:)

  15. Anonymous said

    “…I imagine we are all pretty evangelically minded Christians.” – ADB

    Not all.

  16. ADB said

    I don’t presume to speak for you, but was merely referring to Mike, Gene, Greg and myself who had been having the discussion.

  17. Peter said

    This might be petty on my part, but how much can I trust a blog entry trying to define Mormonism when they don’t even know how to spell it correctly.

    It is Mormon, not MORMAN.

    I was in a (Mormon) Sunday School class yesterday where we were discussing the book of Romans. The lesson material, provided by the Church, was emphasizing that it is only through the Grace of Jesus Christ that we are saved. The lesson pointed out that regardless of the good works that we perform, none of those works have any efficacy in redeeming us from our sins. It is only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ that we can be cleansed from our sins.

    Strange doctrine coming from what Mr. McFarland referred to on the air as a “works based religion”

  18. Brad said

    Oh Peter,

    Again you come on a blog about Mormonism, and still try to insist the beliefs aren’t really different.

    Define salvation. Is it the “general salvation” taught by the Mormon church, which simply keeps us from dying eternally and having some sort of eternal life? Or is it the salvation that Christians talk about, meaning saved eternally to an existence in Heaven with God? The terminology in Mormonism is different, that you can’t just say “I learned about salvation yesterday in a Mormon SS class, and it sounded the same to me.” That doesn’t work with the Mormon church, b/c the terms are defined differently.

    What do you believe? Do you believe that you can go to Heaven, and experience all the fullness of Heaven and being with God for eternity, based SOLELY on your faith in Christ as your Savior? Do you personally believe that faith is ALL that is required?

  19. Peter said

    Oh Brad…

    “Again you come on a blog about Mormonism, and still try to insist the beliefs aren’t really different.”

    1) Yes, I do typically only comment on the threads about Mormonism. I am a Mormon. If I were to comment on the threads about Calvinism, I would be making uninformed comments about a religion that I didn’t understand. And the things that I thought I understood, would probaly be either incomplete, or taken out of context.

    2) I don’t see where I tried “to insist the beliefs aren’t really different.” If you recall any of our previous conversations, I have always insisted that there are very real differences between Mormonism and today’s Evangelical Christianity. What I have been seeking to address is the misinformation that is being disseminated about my beliefs.

    For example, during this particular show, Alex McFarland referred to Mormonism as being a “works based religion.” And in post #9, Gene comments “So when a Mormon speaks of salvation by grace, he is usually referring to universal resurrection. But the Bible speaks of salvation as the forgiveness of sins, not simple universal resurrection. Where Mormonism states that forgiveness of sins is not by faith alone, the Bible does teaches it is by faith alone.”

    The example I gave of yesterday’s Sunday School Class was interesting in that we didn’t discuss resurrection at all, let alone defining Salvation by Grace as Universal Resurrection. We had a discussion about the Atonement and that we couldn’t be saved by our works. But that the perfect, infinite sacrifice of the Son of God is the only thing that can save us from our fallen, sinful state.

    The lesson did go on to point out that while our works don’t save us, Paul and the other apostles and prophets have always called on us to repent of our sins and be baptized. See Acts 2:38. The Apostle Peter could have answered the question of “what should we do?” by saying “Nothing, your works don’t save you, just have faith in Jesus.” But he didn’t. He gave them specific acts to accomplish.

    We could bo back and forth, prooftexting that Paul said this, but James said that…. The truth of the matter is that we believe DIFFERENTLY about how one manifests that he/she has accepted the Atonement.

    BUT that doesn’t mean that it is OK to falsly claim that Mormons believe that they are saved by their works, when we teach the exact opposite to the members of our faith.

  20. Brad said

    Peter,

    As we’ve discussed before (numerous times, in fact) you (and the Mormon church in general) completely misinterpret the Bible’s teachings on what baptism does and does not accomplish, and its role (or lack thereof) in salvation.

    I will definitely be using your quote in further discussions with you and other Mormons. This is one you now can’t get away from.

  21. Peter said

    I’m curious as to which quote you will be “using.” I can’t think of anything I wrote that can be used as ammunition against us… (Hopefully that isn’t your intention anyways)

    Peter

  22. Amanda said

    I missed the original show and just came on to read the comments made about the show. They were a healthy exchange, and many good Bible scriptures were given about some crucial points which apply to anyone who considers themselves or would like to be a Christian. Every time I read the word of God being shared, I think, “Oh boy! This is a letter that supports my precious religion (Mormon, LDS, Latterday Saint), but then I can read in the same exchange some still held misperceptions about the Church or our teachings and realize that my work and our work must continue always.

    I would suggest that anyone who is sincerely looking for the truth about our beliefs regarding the nature of God and in The Book of Mormon should go on LDS.org tomorrow and read two of the General Conference talks given today, the first Saturday in October, on those two subjects. One is by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland and the other by Elder Russell M. Nelson. Read Elder Holland’s talk before you decide we are polytheistic, at least. Every talk has been wonderful and the witness of the Spirit is proof that these men are of God.

    Sincerely and in the name of the Christ we all worship–at least all of us on this blog,

    Amanda

  23. John said

    Not all of us.Thankyou for the information, Amanda.
    In some ways I can relate.

  24. Amanda said

    “Do you believe that you can go to Heaven, and experience all the fullness of Heaven and being with God for eternity, based SOLELY on your faith in Christ as your Savior? Do you personally believe that faith is ALL that is required?” (Brad)

    Brad, again I find myself wanting to respond to your comments–not for you but for any sincere seeker of knowledge about my faith. I’m afraid you disqualified yourself as a serious seeker after 2 months of insisting you know more about my faith than I do after 30 years. Also, why do you ask questions when you do not, will not, receive anything a Mormon says as truth–not even reports from first hand experience?

    Still, I believe that someone should say, besides our Savior who said it in many ways and on many occasions, that one who is genuinely saved by faith ALONE will not be trying to separate the word “faith” from “faithfulness.” Paul understood that when he went on to say we were created for good works. (After Eph. 2:8 which you do understnad, there is Eph. 2:10 which is equally true.)They are related–like the opposite end of a stick one picks up. No Mormon has ever proclaimed that our works are what save us APART from the Atonement of Christ. Never, not one. Anyone who says different? Well, the truth is not in him, to quote my Savior, and he has taken a quote from our prophets or from our scriptures out of context.

    “General salvation” as you term it is only salvation from eternal life without a body. We shall all be resurrected. It is definitely not the salvation we believe results from the aspect of the Atonement wherein Jesus Christ took upon himself our moral culpability before God. That is the only salvation that we really will be happy with because that is the only salvation that results in our living with God and Jesus Christ eternally.

    This answer will be the same no matter how many Mormons you ask about it, Brad. I hope you will consider it; it’s the best we can do.

  25. Joey said

    Now, this IS interesting. We have a Christian, a Mormon and a Wiccan….all on the same thread. How should Mormons witness to Wiccans, compare to how Christians should? Do Wiccans believe that both Christians AND Mormons are incorrect in their beliefs? What an interesting show this would make on the radio.

  26. Amanda said

    I plead ignorance of what Wiccans are all about. I confess I know little about them or what makes them tick, but I would encourage them to read and pray about the Book of Mormon as I would anyone else after bearing my own testimony of its truthfulness. If they accept the Book of Mormon and its witness of Jesus Christ as God’s truth, they would also come to receive and accept the Bible as God’s word. Any beliefs held that were false would eventually fall away as they heard and lived the word of the Lord given anew in these latter days.

  27. Amanda said

    PS “Now, this IS interesting. We have a Christian, a Mormon and a Wiccan….all on the same thread.”

    Actually, Joey, what you have is 2 Christians, one traditional mainstream and one Mormon, and one Wiccan…just for the sake of accuracy. I enjoyed both your and John’s responses though. Thanks,

    Amanda

  28. Brad said

    And Amanda returns – I just knew you wouldn’t be able to stay away, no matter how many times you’ve said you’re done commenting (has that been 2 or 3 times you’ve said that??).

    “Brad, again I find myself wanting to respond to your comments–not for you but for any sincere seeker of knowledge about my faith. I’m afraid you disqualified yourself as a serious seeker after 2 months of insisting you know more about my faith than I do after 30 years. Also, why do you ask questions when you do not, will not, receive anything a Mormon says as truth–not even reports from first hand experience?” (Amanda)

    You’re right, Amanda, I am NOT a serious seeker of anything from Mormonism, for I desire truth, which it does not contain. How long you have been associated with a particular religion or denomination does not have any bearing on what you know about it, by any means. There are lifelong “Christians” who know little about the faith, b/c they have not searched it out. So while you may indeed know much about Mormonism, it is not b/c of your quantity of time, but b/c you have chosen to seek it out. The same can be said for someone who has NOT been with a religion for long. And you’re right – much of what I hear from Mormons I don’t believe, b/c they have been blinded by the lies of the Mormon church. So what they purport to be truth, which they believe, is not.

    “Still, I believe that someone should say, besides our Savior who said it in many ways and on many occasions, that one who is genuinely saved by faith ALONE will not be trying to separate the word “faith” from “faithfulness.” Paul understood that when he went on to say we were created for good works. (After Eph. 2:8 which you do understnad, there is Eph. 2:10 which is equally true.)They are related–like the opposite end of a stick one picks up. No Mormon has ever proclaimed that our works are what save us APART from the Atonement of Christ. Never, not one. Anyone who says different? Well, the truth is not in him, to quote my Savior, and he has taken a quote from our prophets or from our scriptures out of context.” (Amanda)

    Yes, created to do good works, but that has NOTHING to do with our salvation. Do you believe that? Does the Mormon church believe that? Salvation doesn’t come from the our faith in Christ’s death on the cross as our Savior, PLUS something else. Our faith is all that is required. Do you agree?

    “‘General salvation’ as you term it is only salvation from eternal life without a body. We shall all be resurrected. It is definitely not the salvation we believe results from the aspect of the Atonement wherein Jesus Christ took upon himself our moral culpability before God. That is the only salvation that we really will be happy with because that is the only salvation that results in our living with God and Jesus Christ eternally.” (Amanda)

    There’s only one “salvation”, that which comes through faith in Christ alone. There’s no distinguishment between different types of salvation.

    “This answer will be the same no matter how many Mormons you ask about it, Brad. I hope you will consider it; it’s the best we can do.” (Amanda)

    Unfortunately, Amanda, as bad as you want to believe that b/c it means unity in your church, it’s not true. I have asked numerous Mormons that, and have seen varying answers. Which either means beliefs are different among Mormons, or there is no standard of belief in the church.

    Like I said, I knew you couldn’t stay away…

  29. Brad said

    “I plead ignorance of what Wiccans are all about. I confess I know little about them or what makes them tick, but I would encourage them to read and pray about the Book of Mormon as I would anyone else after bearing my own testimony of its truthfulness. If they accept the Book of Mormon and its witness of Jesus Christ as God’s truth, they would also come to receive and accept the Bible as God’s word. Any beliefs held that were false would eventually fall away as they heard and lived the word of the Lord given anew in these latter days.” (Amanda)

    I would strongly encourage them to stay away from anything to do with the Mormon church, as to believe in that would be no better than to stay in their current Wiccan beliefs. Does everyone see one of the issues? Accept the BOM first, and then, if you can believe that, you will also believe the Bible. If you wish to be in a religion that isn’t Bible-based principally, but based on the writings of a man such as Joseph Smith (do your own research), more power to you. But don’t say you weren’t warned to stay away, for your own eternal good. Too many rules, too much complicating of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is SO SIMPLE. But, the circular reasoning and self-validation provided by the LDS church is appealing to many.

  30. Brad said

    “PS ‘Now, this IS interesting. We have a Christian, a Mormon and a Wiccan….all on the same thread.’

    Actually, Joey, what you have is 2 Christians, one traditional mainstream and one Mormon, and one Wiccan…just for the sake of accuracy. I enjoyed both your and John’s responses though.” (Amanda)

    Actually Joey, and I know you know this, but I’ll say it for the sake of others – you do NOT have 3 Christians, b/c Mormons are not Christian. They do NOT worship the same God, b/c the attributes are completely different, the texts on which they are based are different and extraneous, and the end result of following each is NOT the same. Though Mormons are truly fighting hard nowadays to get people to believe that, it simply is NOT true. Just for accuracy.

  31. Amanda said

    Brad, I see that you are still practicing the art of mind reading and heart reading.”…not a Christian…do not worship the same God…end result Not the same.” No wonder you feel it doesn’t matter how long you’ve been “associated” with a religion or denomination to understand it and truly know about it.

    While I finished my comments TO YOU, Brad, there is nothing more than I love better than talking about the Lord’s restored church to those who are interested in what it is really like. (Again, I’m afraid you don’t qualify.) It’s missionary work, pure and simple, and do you think Paul would pass up such an opportunity if the Spirit directed him to an opportunity? I felt impressed to look at the Blogsite not even knowing there was another conversation about my faith.

    I will say that I didn’t have to be in the Church one minute longer than enough time for the Holy Ghost to bear witness of the truthfulness of it to me to know that it was TRUE. It took me much longer than that to understand its workings, read its true history through eye witnesses, and watch others progressing in the gospel as well as myself–to the meat as well as the milk. The Bible has some things to say about that too–as Amy Grant also did in the song, “Fat Baby,” back in the 80’s. Progression takes time.

    And that leads me to another important question. Do you believe the verses in Ephesians 4: 11-15? Paul defines the purpose of the Lord’s church.

    “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets, and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edigying of the body of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men,…whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ…”

    Do you think the “perfecting of the saints (members) comes overnight? Do you think we “grow up into him in all things overnight? This perfection process by which we are sanctified through the Holy Ghost takes time, and that is why it is better to find the truth sooner than later–to seek Christ in our youth. But whenever we find him, we will be paid the same farthing or penny that life-long members and believers (not always the same) as our eternal reward if we received and followed the Holy Ghost which leads us and empowers us to return home.

    Of course we are “Another Christian denomination;” we are not, however, JUST ANOTHER CHRISTIAN denomination. Else why would we need and have the Book of Mormon; why would we need and have a living prophet? Jesus’ church which He establish in the Meridian of time was not just a Christian denomination; it was His, The, Christian denomination, established through the true and living God upon direct revelation. And in these latter days, it is bringing to pass the fulfillment of Paul’s words in Ephesians 1:10, “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; eve in him.”

    The Book of Mormon is the powertool of the gathering which the Lord has provided in these latter days, and it was foretold to come forth in the Old Testament, particularly in Isaiah,Ezekiel and Revelation in the NT. (Of course, it is not mentioned by name just as the Savior is not mentioned by name in the Old Testment; nor is the Bible, but the verses are fairly specific if one knows Mormon history.)

    While it takes a certain amount of time to read the scriptures enough to know what they are really saying, it also takes time to answer the many distracting and sometimes malicious accusations about the Church which some people like to promolgate to cause contention or to prevent people from reading the Book of Mormon or listening to our missionaries. Fear makes us human being fairly easy to manipulate, especially the threat of damnation, but I believe our Heavely Father loves us all, and if we ask Him for our knowledge, He will not lead us wrong.

  32. Amanda said

    Let’s try “edifying” not “edgifying”

  33. Amanda said

    Okay, I was in too big a rush and my mind was going faster than my fingers–or maybe my fingers were just plain going too fast. Sorry about all the typos!

  34. Brad said

    “While I finished my comments TO YOU, Brad, there is nothing more than I love better than talking about the Lord’s restored church to those who are interested in what it is really like.” (Amanda)

    And that’s fine, whether you choose to comment to me directly or not. Just know, I will not sit idly by and let you portray the Mormon church as “Christian”, when it is not, if only so I might keep one more person from seeking out Mormonism.

    “And that leads me to another important question. Do you believe the verses in Ephesians 4: 11-15?” (Amanda)

    I believe the entire Bible – just not in the incorrect ways the Mormon church interprets it, to back up their false religion.

    “Do you think the “perfecting of the saints (members) comes overnight? Do you think we “grow up into him in all things overnight?” (Amanda)

    No – but I don’t think the Mormon church has anything to do with this, either.

    “Of course we are “Another Christian denomination;” we are not, however, JUST ANOTHER CHRISTIAN denomination.” (Amanda)

    The LDS church is, most certainly, NOT a Christian denomination in any sense, as what it believes about God, Jesus, the Trinity, salvation, etc… is not in agreement with what Christianity teaches about the same.

    “Else why would we need and have the Book of Mormon; why would we need and have a living prophet? Jesus’ church which He establish in the Meridian of time was not just a Christian denomination; it was His, The, Christian denomination, established through the true and living God upon direct revelation. And in these latter days, it is bringing to pass the fulfillment of Paul’s words in Ephesians 1:10, “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; eve in him.” (Amanda)

    Mormons like to think that Scripture passages are always referring to THEIR church or to THEIR prophets or THEIR teachings, but it simply isn’t the case. We need no other Scripture than the Bible itself, to come to a full and complete understanding of Christ and salvation. The Mormon church is not only NOT needed, it is harmful to a person’s understanding, b/c it leads them away from what the Bible conveys, to a twisted take on what Smith dreamed up. It truly is sad.

    “The Book of Mormon is the powertool of the gathering which the Lord has provided in these latter days, and it was foretold to come forth in the Old Testament, particularly in Isaiah,Ezekiel and Revelation in the NT. (Of course, it is not mentioned by name just as the Savior is not mentioned by name in the Old Testment; nor is the Bible, but the verses are fairly specific if one knows Mormon history.)” (Amanda)

    The BOM is foretold NOWHERE in the Bible, either directly or indirectly. No, Amanda, we’ve already gone over the whole Ezekiel 37 thing, and it is a complete and utter misinterpretation, that is neither correct logically, textually or contextually, to say that the “stick” in Ezekiel 37 represents the BOM. It is so far from correct, it is nearly comical. Same goes for any reference you may infer in Isaiah or Revelation, as well. It is ridiculous to think such. No person, who didn’t know anything about Mormonism, would derive such conclusions.

    “While it takes a certain amount of time to read the scriptures enough to know what they are really saying, it also takes time to answer the many distracting and sometimes malicious accusations about the Church which some people like to promolgate to cause contention or to prevent people from reading the Book of Mormon or listening to our missionaries. Fear makes us human being fairly easy to manipulate, especially the threat of damnation, but I believe our Heavely Father loves us all, and if we ask Him for our knowledge, He will not lead us wrong.” (Amanda)

    I agree it takes time to understand them properly, so my advice would be to start reading more, b/c the LDS church has them wrong. You can call what Christians (including myself) say about the LDS church distracting or malicious, that is your option. As I’ve said before, I don’t hate Mormons, but I do hate Mormonism, b/c it is misleading others away from salvation. I agree that fear makes people easy to manipulate; Joseph Smith preyed upon people through manipulation, so he should know. The very basis by which Mormonism wants people to believe it is self-manipulating, b/c people are asked to believe for themselves if it’s true, and they’ll be told it’s true, if they ask. People so desire to be right, that they’re willing to try it, and what happens? They’re misled down the Mormon path. I agree, God will not lead us wrong, but God is not leading the Mormons.

  35. JR said

    ‘Of course we are “Another Christian denomination;” we are not, however, JUST ANOTHER CHRISTIAN denomination. Else why would we need and have the Book of Mormon; why would we need and have a living prophet?'(Amanda)
    Amanda, have you asked yourself those questions? Do you ever wonder why after about 1800AD, the Lord would, out of the blue, reveal “the golden plates” to Joseph Smith?
    11 Witnesses to the golden plates (of those 11 witnesses, 7 were related – do you accept that as Truth?)
    There are a few contradictions that I picked up on between The Bible, and the BOM… How do you discern then what is Truth?

    This is one of the contradictions I picked up at random from http://www.mormon.org site – Do you agree with this teaching, and where do you confirm it with the Bible?

    “Those who are worthy to return to the presence of our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ become “heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17) of all that the Father has. They will return to live with Heavenly Father and with their families in His eternal glory.

    Those who choose not to follow our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ will receive a reward according to what they have done in this life, but they will not enjoy the glory of living in the presence of God.

    Just as some of life’s sweetest joys can come through family associations, the loss of a beloved family member can be a source of deepest sorrow. But death does not need to be the end of your relationships with cherished loved ones. The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that the “same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there [in eternity], only it will be coupled with eternal glory” ( Doctrine and Covenants 130:2).

    Family members who accept the Atonement of Jesus Christ and follow His example can be together forever through sacred sealing ordinances performed in God’s holy temples.

    After you are judged, you will live in a state of glory. Because everyone’s works and righteous desires vary, heaven includes different kingdoms, or degrees of glory.

    * Celestial kingdom?—Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ reside in the celestial kingdom. If you live according to the gospel? of Jesus Christ and are cleansed from sin by the Atonement?, you will receive a place in this, the highest kingdom, where you will live in God’s presence and know complete joy.
    * Terrestrial kingdom?—People who refuse to accept the gospel? of Jesus Christ but who live honorable lives will receive a place in the terrestrial kingdom.
    * Telestial kingdom?—Those who continue in their sins and do not repent until after they have died, will eventually receive a place in the telestial kingdom.” (definitions found on website)
    http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-salvation/heaven-and-eternal-reward

    If this is one of your beliefs, then I agree with Brad on this one.
    “I don’t hate Mormons, but I do hate Mormonism, b/c it is misleading others away from salvation” (Brad)

  36. Amanda said

    “I will not sit idly by and let you portray the Mormon church as “Christian”…(Brad)

    Well, it seems we’re at a stalemate here because I am not a sitter byer either while my faith is being falsely slandered. That’s why we keep bumping in to each other.

    “I believe the entire Bible – just not in the incorrect ways the Mormon church interprets it, to back up their false religion.” So…if it’s not just your word against the Bible’s, please explain to me how I interpreted Eph. 4:11-15 inxcorrectly?

    “No – but I don’t think the Mormon church has anything to do with this, either.” (Brad)

    And “think” is all you are entitled or have the authority to do, Brad. With your incorrect knowledge, your suppositions, your never having read the Book of Mormon, never having been a member of the Church, you are not entitled to proclaim or testify or say you “know.” I, on the other hand, being able to claim all of the forgoing states of being, can proclaim, testify, and say that I know–KNOW–that the Church today fulfills its purpose in affecting our spiritual progression. Foremost is the gift of the Holy Ghost bestowed by one with priesthood authority by the laying on of hands as in the ancient church of Jesus Christ. That makes all the difference in the world–in our progression as well as in salvation because it is by this gift that we are sanctified and have the mind and will of Christ–according to the Bible we both believe in.

    “…is not in agreement with what Christianity teaches about the same.” (Brad) It doesn’t matter what preceeded this part of your statement. You are only entitled to say that it doesn’t agree with what mainstream Christianity TODAY teaches about the same. That certainly doesn’t apply to Jesus Christ or the Bible itself or to the first two generations of disciples after Christ’s death.

    “It truly is sad.” Again, whatever mantra preceded this, it is sad only to those who have not yet put their faith IN GOD on the issue of Mormonism, read the Book of Mormon, the Bible beside it, and asked their Heavely Father if it is of Him. (Crocodile tears do not move me.)

    “No person, who didn’t know anything about Mormonism, would derive such conclusions.” (That the Old Testament speaks of the Book of Mormon. Brad speaking)

    You went over one reference, it’s true, and we both agreed upon the nations of Judah and Israel (Northern)being joined together as part of its fulfillment. (There were several verses involved as you may remember, and part of them spoke more than once of the two sticks being written upon and then joined “as one in mine(the Lord’s) hand.” (One was called the stick of Joseph–as in Joseph of Egypt, from whose descendants the Book of Mormon came; the other, the stick of Judah–from which tribe the Bible came.) Some people are so confident that the word “sticks” mean nothing coherent that many of the new Bibles leave it out entirely and just go with nations. ( I could have once been one of those people.) We now know better, and you’re right: it is because of the Book of Mormon that we know. I would never have suspected, let alone known, that when Ps. 85:11 speaks of “Truth spring(ing) out of the earth” or that when Isaiah prophesied, “And thou shalt be brought down and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust,” these writers were referring not only to ancient civilizations but to the Book of Mormon people who were massacred after they became wicked, but the words of their prophets, who long warned them and gave them God’s words, survived and were brought forth and translated for us as a witness and warning today by Joseph Smith. Nor would I have known that when it goes on to say, “And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed,” that the gold plates given to Joseph Smith were sealed and came forth from the dust or ground. Joseph was only allowed to translate about a third or less of the plates that were not sealed, the rest being reserved to some future date–the millenium, perhaps. It goes on in Isaiah 29:11 and 12…”which men deliver to one that is learned (Professor Anthon in New York City, who fulfilled this verse down to the very line of saying (when the words were delivered to him and he was asked to read them but was told the sealed portion could not be delivered to him)… “Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned (Joseph Smith), saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.” Who would think to link the two events but one who has learned even the basics of the Restoration? Who would ever think that the angel that John saw flying in the midst of heaven in the last days, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people…” was the angel Moroni who appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him the everlasting gospel to bring forth as the Book of Mormon? No one but one who has read it, prayed about it, and has received a witness from God.

    This interpretation may be comical to you,Brad, but it is sacred and literal to those like me who interpret the Bible as literally as we feel it is meant to be–which is not to say that the Bible is not full of symbolism as well.

    “I agree that fear makes people easy to manipulate; Joseph Smith preyed upon people through manipulation, so he should know. The very basis by which Mormonism wants people to believe it is self-manipulating, b/c people are asked to believe for themselves if it’s true, and they’ll be told it’s true, if they ask. People so desire to be right, that they’re willing to try it, and what happens?” (Brad)

    Interesting you should bring this up. This was one of my converting points–or one that made the atmosphere one in which the Spirit could operate. Fear is not of God, and so man’s spirit cannot respond or act upon fear and faith at the same time. Joseph Smith said, “I teach correct principles and let the people govern themselves.” The missionaries today do the same thing. They teach; they encourage us to pray about their message and read the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon. They ask us to pray about what we read and its truthfulness. We are free and welcome to talk to others about anything we read or like to. We were never isolated as people who are victims of cults are, never encouraged to leave our families or friends or not to see them. Only when God gives us an answer–which can take from days to months according to our preparation and sincerity– do most of us take that important step of baptism or joining the church–just as Paul did when his sight was restored, as the Savior did “to fulfill all righteousness.”

    Can you please spell out where either manipulation or fear manifest themselves here? I really want to know. I’m sure some missionary along the way have been extremely zealous to the point of over eager, or even mistakenly “pushy”;it could happen, but that is not the norm, and it didn’t happen in my case which took 9 months.

    “People so desire to be right, that they’re willing to try it, and what happens?” (Brad)

    Well, let me comment on that:

    When people “try it,” as you said, asking of God, the people who actually want it to happen COULD be just as easily misled as the people who don’t want it to happen, right? Wrong, because the people who WANT it to be right will usually be willing to read sincerely and to exercise faith, and the prayer of faith availeth much. (They often go together– faith hope, and charity.) And if an individual were misled, it shouldn’t take him or her long to find that out, should it? People who DON’T want the Book of Mormon to be true are rarely capable of exercising the faith, prayer, and patience necessary to receive an answer. Still, many are converted who start out to prove it is false, so I make no judgment about them. Every conversion is a miracle, especially since the opposition which is NOT of God sets in almost invariably when one starts seriously investigating the Church.

    Since when did the truth not make us free? Are we not dependent upon our God and his Christ for all truth? And since when does one person have the right to judge whether or not another is exercising faith or just feelings, desire or objective hope (which Paul says we NEED)? If one truly has faith in God, he knows that God would not let him be deceived. At least, that was the kind of faith that I exercised as I read, prayed and investigated the Church. God has never let me down nor deceived me, and I rest in the knowledge that my salvation is in His hands as I continue to strive to exercise that faith in all of his words and promises, following His Good Spirit.

    You know, Brad. I keep coming back hoping that someone besides you participates on this webite. I’m happy to talk to you in their behalf, but you never really told me if you are paid to do this or if you are a free agent who is not an employee. I’m just curious.

    Just remember, Brad, that saying that a Dove chocolate bar does not taste good or sweet or like chocolate is never enough for one, who loves that authentic brand of chocolate and has actually eaten it or tasted it, to believe you.

  37. John said

    Here’s someone else,Amanda.
    I’ve been looking through the Book of Mormon and I’ve already got a book titled “Teachings of the presidents of the church’ Brigham Young”,1997 edition.
    It’s interesting.Christianity of any kind is not for me, but it’s always interesting to learn about those with a different religious view.About you’re second to last comment to Brad……….I’ve also wondered such things.I can see Brad having a career arguing like this.

  38. Brad said

    “Well, it seems we’re at a stalemate here because I am not a sitter byer either while my faith is being falsely slandered. That’s why we keep bumping in to each other.” (Amanda)

    Nothing at all untrue is being said about the Mormon faith. It’s just being said without the typical LDS spin that the church likes to put on it, which is why it sounds so odd to others.

    “So…if it’s not just your word against the Bible’s, please explain to me how I interpreted Eph. 4:11-15 inxcorrectly?” (Amanda)

    I didn’t say you interpreted those verses incorrectly – I referred to the overall incorrect way that the LDS church interprets much of Scripture. I stand by that.

    “And “think” is all you are entitled or have the authority to do, Brad. With your incorrect knowledge, your suppositions, your never having read the Book of Mormon, never having been a member of the Church, you are not entitled to proclaim or testify or say you “know.” (Amanda)

    Nope. I don’t have to read a book of incorrect math facts to “know” that they’re incorrect, b/c I’ve read a book of correct math facts and know what the true facts are. Same principle applies to the BOM. I have read the Bible, which is true and complete, and “know” that nothing else is needed, certainly not the BOM or any of the other LDS texts. I don’t need to ever have been a member of the LDS church to know it’s wrong – would you need to have been a member of a Buddhist temple to know that it is wrong? No.

    “I, on the other hand, being able to claim all of the forgoing states of being, can proclaim, testify, and say that I know–KNOW–that the Church today fulfills its purpose in affecting our spiritual progression.” (Amanda)

    See, Amanda? Mormonism is always so focused on the “Church”, on the denomination as a whole, rather than being focused on Jesus. The church itself does nothing for you – it is Christ who changes us. There is nothing the “church” can give you, that Christ can’t also give you, even apart from the church.

    “Foremost is the gift of the Holy Ghost bestowed by one with priesthood authority by the laying on of hands as in the ancient church of Jesus Christ. That makes all the difference in the world–in our progression as well as in salvation because it is by this gift that we are sanctified and have the mind and will of Christ–according to the Bible we both believe in.” (Amanda)

    Really? Let’s look at an interesting passage then, shall we? How about Acts 10:44-48 “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.’ So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.” Wait, what’s this? People actually received the Holy Spirit without hands from a Melchizedek priest being laid on them, and without being baptized first, as the LDS church prescribes? How can that be? Doesn’t the Bible then contradict LDS teachings? The clear answer is “Yes.” Here’s a link to the Mormon.org website, where this is discussed: http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/jesus-christ-our-savior/gift-of-the-holy-ghost

    This particular page could be picked apart for days – DAYS – but suffice it to say, based on the above, it is in direct contradiction with what Scripture teaches.

    “…it is sad only to those who have not yet put their faith IN GOD on the issue of Mormonism, read the Book of Mormon, the Bible beside it, and asked their Heavely Father if it is of Him. (Crocodile tears do not move me.)” (Amanda)

    Except for reading the BOM doesn’t move you closer to Jesus, it moves you further away. It was derived by a man who was a known fraud, for goodness’ sake! What is sad is that people believe it, and think it is Christian.

    “You went over one reference, it’s true, and we both agreed upon the nations of Judah and Israel (Northern)being joined together as part of its fulfillment. (There were several verses involved as you may remember, and part of them spoke more than once of the two sticks being written upon and then joined “as one in mine(the Lord’s) hand.” (One was called the stick of Joseph–as in Joseph of Egypt, from whose descendants the Book of Mormon came; the other, the stick of Judah–from which tribe the Bible came.) Some people are so confident that the word “sticks” mean nothing coherent that many of the new Bibles leave it out entirely and just go with nations. ( I could have once been one of those people.) We now know better, and you’re right: it is because of the Book of Mormon that we know.” (Amanda)

    Amanda, you’re simply blinded by your devotion to the LDS church. You actually buy into the lie that the BOM is the reason we know something we wouldn’t – couldn’t – have otherwise come to, without the BOM itself. It’s a circular argument. I could also write a book that says the 2 sticks are actually baseball bats, and they were playing a primitive baseball game, and only b/c of the book I’ve written do we now know that it was a baseball game, and not symbolic for 2 nations, as the text and context are PLAINLY CLEAR about! It’s complete and utter hilarity that anyone would think otherwise!

    “I would never have suspected, let alone known, that when Ps. 85:11 speaks of “Truth spring(ing) out of the earth” or that when Isaiah prophesied, “And thou shalt be brought down and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust,” these writers were referring not only to ancient civilizations but to the Book of Mormon people who were massacred after they became wicked, but the words of their prophets, who long warned them and gave them God’s words, survived and were brought forth and translated for us as a witness and warning today by Joseph Smith.” (Amanda)

    You’re right Amanda, you NEVER would have suspected or believed it, without the BOM. Do you know why? B/c it isn’t implied by the text! No person who’s using logic or proper textual/contextual interpretation would arrive at the conclusions given by the BOM! It’s ridiculous to think otherwise!

    “Nor would I have known that when it goes on to say, “And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed,” that the gold plates given to Joseph Smith were sealed and came forth from the dust or ground. Joseph was only allowed to translate about a third or less of the plates that were not sealed, the rest being reserved to some future date–the millenium, perhaps. It goes on in Isaiah 29:11 and 12…”which men deliver to one that is learned (Professor Anthon in New York City, who fulfilled this verse down to the very line of saying (when the words were delivered to him and he was asked to read them but was told the sealed portion could not be delivered to him)… “Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned (Joseph Smith), saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.” Who would think to link the two events but one who has learned even the basics of the Restoration?” (Amanda)

    Wow – we’re really in Crazyland, now. This is ridiculous. In answer to your question, as to “who would think to link the 2 events” except for Mormons, of course? Nobody, Amanda. Nobody else would. Believe me, the LDS church has the monopoly on believing these 2 are linked.

    “Who would ever think that the angel that John saw flying in the midst of heaven in the last days, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people…” was the angel Moroni who appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him the everlasting gospel to bring forth as the Book of Mormon? No one but one who has read it, prayed about it, and has received a witness from God.” (Amanda)

    You’re right, Amanda. Nobody else but a Mormon would infer this. Nobody.

    “This interpretation may be comical to you,Brad, but it is sacred and literal to those like me who interpret the Bible as literally as we feel it is meant to be–which is not to say that the Bible is not full of symbolism as well.” (Amanda)

    It’s not only comical, it’s sad, b/c it’s falsely giving you what you think is evidence for your religion, when it is all based on falsehoods, and it is affecting your eternal destination. That is what makes it truly sad.

    “Can you please spell out where either manipulation or fear manifest themselves here? I really want to know.” (Amanda)

    “People who DON’T want the Book of Mormon to be true are rarely capable of exercising the faith, prayer, and patience necessary to receive an answer. Still, many are converted who start out to prove it is false, so I make no judgment about them. Every conversion is a miracle, especially since the opposition which is NOT of God sets in almost invariably when one starts seriously investigating the Church.” (Amanda)

    This is my point – the very method by which potential members are asked to see if Mormonism is true is manipulative, b/c it preys on people’s desire to believe in something correct. “Pray about it, and if you pray and believe, it will be shown to you that it’s true. If it’s not shown to you, then you don’t believe enough.” But the Bible says to investigate the Scriptures (meaning the Bible), to see if what you hear is true, NOT to pray for a feeling, b/c those are misleading, b/c they are based in US, not in God. So the whole conversion concept for Mormonism is misleading, at it’s core.

    “You know, Brad. I keep coming back hoping that someone besides you participates on this webite. I’m happy to talk to you in their behalf, but you never really told me if you are paid to do this or if you are a free agent who is not an employee. I’m just curious.” (Amanda)

    Boy, I’d love it if I were paid to do this. Now that would be great. But unfortunately, I am not. I know, it’s hard to believe that a person with this much opposition and willingness to voice it isn’t a paid person to “stir things up”, but it’s true. Feel free to email Stu or anyone else on here to confirm, if you wish.

    “Just remember, Brad, that saying that a Dove chocolate bar does not taste good or sweet or like chocolate is never enough for one, who loves that authentic brand of chocolate and has actually eaten it or tasted it, to believe you.” (Amanda)

    You’re right. I just wish the person knew that inside the chocolate was cyanide, with which they are poisoning themselves. But, if they “feel” it’s chocolate, and it tastes good, they’ll never know the difference, until it’s too late.

  39. Anonymous said

    John,

    I appreciate getting to hear from at least one or two people whose name is not Brad, and I could ask no more than that you read what you are inclined to read with an open mind. I believe that everyone is born with the “light of Christ” (which we call our conscience), and little by little, as we are true to the light (truth and intelligence) we are given, we will be given more. I hope you continue doing what all good people should have an inclination to do: “prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

    Sincerely,

    Amanda

  40. Brad said

    John,

    I too hope you “prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” Key is – where do you go to prove them? Mormonism would have you look in the BOM, in their D&C, the POGP, (all alongside the Bible, of course) and pray for the “burning in the bosom”, to have the truth revealed to you. However, the Bible itself tells us to be wary of false prophets, and to search the Scriptures (the Bible alone) to see if what we’re told is true. I would also encourage you to read, but not the Mormon literature. Read the Bible, the only book ever inspired by God, and you will know the truth, and God’s plan for your life and for mankind. Mormonism, no matter what you hear, is not Christianity, and is not God’s plan.

    I would be willing to talk more about with you at any time.

  41. Anonymous said

    Brad says: “I have read the Bible, which is true and complete, and “know” that nothing else is needed, certainly not the BOM or any of the other LDS texts. I don’t need to ever have been a member of the LDS church to know it’s wrong – would you need to have been a member of a Buddhist temple to know that it is wrong? No.”

    I too have read the Bible, Brad, and all my life, while I understood many truths in it, there were many things about it I could not understand–even the controversies over who wrote what and is it reliable? and what does this mean?–that kept me, as a self proclaimed feminist in the 70’s, from embracing it as fully as I should have. Also, I had decided that organized religion was totally unnecessary. They were all the same to me–without authority and without the answers that I needed to exercise real faith in scripture. I knew that only God could “straighten out my thinking,” however, and when I was ready to care enough and pray sincerely in faith at age 25, a Mormon neighbor moved in across the street–the first real Mormon I’d ever met. This started the process that hooked me up with the missionaries, and God began to remove my stumbling blocks.

    The Book of Mormon itself addresses this process in 2 Nephi 3:11 and 12 in speaking of the latter day prophet Joseph Smith’s mission without naming him: “But a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy (descendants of Joseph of Egypt) loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins–and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have alread gone forth among them (The Bible).

    Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by… (thy descendants)and also that which shall be written by… (the descendants of Judah)shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.”

    This is exactly what this second witness of Christ, The Book of Mormon did for me. There was a need for it established in at least myself, and the need was met. I’m but one of 13 million who feel pretty much the same way about it meeting neeeds.

    Brad puts forth: “Except for reading the BOM doesn’t move you closer to Jesus, it moves you further away. It was derived by a man who was a known fraud, for goodness’ sake! What is sad is that people believe it, and think it is Christian.”

    See my witness above for my response to this one too. With stumbling blocks removed, I was able to exercise greater faith and receive Christ in ways I hadn’t before–in truth and in spirit. And Joseph was a known fraud only to people who WANTED and insisted him to be a fraud so much that they were willing to slander him. (God have mercy upon their souls.) That’s why he was arrested over 25 times and released every time, and that’s why the cowardly mob of 150 people had to storm the jail to murder him. They couldn’t do it legally. Reminds me of ancient Jerusalem and….All the prophesies we now know to fortell the life and mission of Jesus Christ were easily “poo-pooed” and seemed “hilarious” to people of similar mentality who would NEVER have suspected those scriptures were talking about him. I’m sure the Christians after his death were assailed for trying to “spin” the scriptures regarding his riding the ass and the guards rolling the dice over his raiment, his bones not being broken–the list goes on and on…to make them fit their new religion. It’s an old game called “opposition” that only God Himself can silence, and He HAS silenced it for myself and for many others.

    Brad: “But the Bible says to investigate the Scriptures (meaning the Bible), to see if what you hear is true, NOT to pray for a feeling, b/c those are misleading, b/c they are based in US, not in God. So the whole conversion concept for Mormonism is misleading, at it’s core.”

    I’m not sure the Bible says anything whatsoever about investigating it since it wasn’t even a complete entity when the individual books were written and most of them weren’t voted upon and approved as holy scripture by ecclesiastical council until several centuries later. And since you haven’t read the Book of Mormon, let me help you out:

    Moroni’s challenge goes like this on p.529: “Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.” (So far, you have been told that you should already know and ponder the things written in the Bible.)

    “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.”

    Now, to me “receiving” these things means giving place to them in your mind and heart and perhaps even acting upon them to SEE if they are true. (That’s what Jesus said to do…do the will of the Father to know if He was speaking of Himself or for God) It’s true that from the perspective of a prophet or an apostle of God, if you don’t get an answer, it isn’t God’s fault; it’s yours, but so what? If you don’t get an answer, you are under no obligation to God to act upon it, are you. Did I fear that the Mormons would point their fingers and laugh or frown at me if I didn’t get an answer? Nope. I need only fear God and how He would feel about me, not to mention my future prospects with Him if I didn’t care enough or trust enough to ask, or worse, if I asked, got an answer, and didn’t follow through on it. But…as the Bible says, “The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.” And that’s quite a different thing from the fear of man which is foolish.

    The Book of Mormon didn’t say, pray for a feeling; it said “the power of the Holy Spirit will manifest it to you.” The Spirit works with different people in different ways. IN Ephesians, however, Paul talks about people who are “past feeling” and “have given themselves over unto lasciviousness”…In the BOM in 1 Ne. 17:45, we read…”and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but YE WERE PAST FEELING, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide assunder.” Elijah heard the still, small voice…1 Kings 19:12. The disciples on the road to Emmaus felt their “heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and …opened to us the scriptures?” So maybe the Spirit CAN work through feelings to a Bible believing Christian. Feelings are not always from us that are within us.

    The point is, how does the Spirit work with you, Brad. Which leads us to your other comment:

    About Acts 10:44-48:

    Brad rejoices: “Wait, what’s this? People actually received the Holy Spirit without hands from a Melchizedek priest being laid on them, and without being baptized first, as the LDS church prescribes? How can that be?”

    Every scripture is important to me because I love ALL of Bible, and this one truly is educational. First, let me say that the Spirit still works the same way now that it did then. If the Spirit hadn’t been poured out upon me as I HEARD the missionaries teach and READ the Book of Mormon alongside the Bible, I wouldn’t have been converted, much less baptized either. Without the Spirit, we cannot even know that Jesus is the Christ, according to the Bible. Without the manifestation of the Spirit upon him, Cornelius would never have been baptized either ushering in the dispensation of taking the gospel to the Gentiles.

    It is the “GIFT of the Holy Ghost” that is bestowed by the laying on of hands by the Elders after one is baptized. (And I hope you noticed that baptism was the next expected and required step after their conversions in the verses you quoted, just like it was with Paul after his vision was restored, and Cornelius after the Spirit manifested truth to him.) Let’s turn to Acts 8:12-24 to read about Simon’s experience:

    “And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hadns, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.” (Acts 8:18,19)
    When Paul instucted Timothy to “Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophey, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.” (1 Tim:4:14), Paul was referring to the same gift of the Holy Ghost that is given today by the Elders of the Church.
    “The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have , whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. More powerful than that which is available before baptism, it acts as a cleansing agent to purify a person adn sanctify him from all sin. Thus it is often spoken of as “fire.” (Matt. 3:11 and various BOM references.) Bible Dictionary, LDS edition.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterpday Saints is the same church that Jesus established in his day with the same gifts and powers. I hardly think this is in conflict with the Bible unless you choose to erase the passages I have shared with you.

    I love chocolate, and I love the Church. Both are sweet to me. As I’ve said before, how could it be that the Church of Cyanide could give me the same gifts and spiritual power that Jesus promises me in the Bible? I think I would have figured out if they were empty promises by now–or at least not seen witness after witness that other converts also have received the same gifts of the Spirit and spiritual power. I think I would have seen a lack of harmony and peace in a church founded upon lies, don’t you? Would Satan’s house be a house of order? And yet, there is no other organization I have seen that comes close in scope and vision and power and peace. Personal joy and peace should not be a fruit of cyanide. “Hatred” toward another’s denomination–now that may be a fruit of cyanide, but I’ll refrain from blaming it on your church, Brad.

  42. AAAaamanda said

    The one above is from Amanda, not Anonymous. I got spoiled when it automatically printed my name before…but not this time.

  43. John said

    You’re welcome Amanda. I’ve actually been hear from the start.See replies #3 and#5.I never claimed to be a good person.I’m like the ocean tide, I go both ways. Other people keep describing me as such though.I simply am what I am.
    Brad, did I ever tell you why I had 17 bibles?
    It’s because EACH ONE IS A LITTLE DIFFERINT THAN THE OTHERS.
    Do tell us all, which version of the “unchanging word of God” should we read to learn the “truth”? That last remark you made about Mormonism, it almost sounds as if you’re worried that I may become one.If this is so, then stop being silly.Reread reply #37.Blessed Be.[Hee!Hee!]

  44. Brad said

    John,

    There’s a difference between different TRANSLations of the Bible, and different INTERPRETations of the Bible. Mormons use basically the same Bible as many Christians (the old KJV), so they use much the same TRANSLation; but their INTERPRETations are much different. The translation is simply the original text (Greek/Hebrew) written in English, so we can understand it. The interpretation is what the verse means, in its original, historical, contextual sense. Many people confuse the difference between the 2. I myself have many different translations (KJV, NKJV, NAS, NIV, RSV; I even have the BOM and NWT, so I can refer to them when Mormons/JW’s come by), but there is only 1 correct interpretation of Scripture. It is what God meant for us to understand when He inspired the writers to put pen to paper.

    Amanda is lost, but not hopelessly so. If that were the case, then the Holy Spirit may as well pack up and leave, but there is always hope through prayer and the Holy Spirit’s work in a non-believer’s life. I continue to pray for her, and all other non-Christians (Mormon and otherwise), and I will pray for you as well, John!

  45. John said

    As it pleases you[yaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwn.]

  46. John said

    Amanda,surely you had to know that it would be this way,with some of the people here.Did you read what the Catholics went through? You’re in the same boat,unfortunately.

  47. Amanda said

    Brad said, “there is only 1 correct interpretation of Scripture. It is what God meant for us to understand when He inspired the writers to put pen to paper.”

    I’m happy to report that we Mormons agree with Brad heartily on this point. Unfortunately, due to 27 theological councils and Constantine’s influence in political expediency to solve the crisis in faith over the nature of the Godhead while accomodating the Greeek influence that had crept into the Church, traditional mainstream Christianity and Mormonism part ways over Biblical interpretation on subjects like the nature of the Godhead, the necessity of baptism, the Holy Ghost (who He is and what He does), the necessity of not just believing but repenting of sin and obeying God’s words and enduring to the end, the concept of damnation and heaven and hell, etc. I have found that more than not, the LDS interpretations are far more literal as to what the Bible actually says. We believe God himself has given anew the corrective lenses needed to understand the intent of the original writers in areas that had reached the point that they could no longer be understood properly in any other way. The Book of Mormon, the Church, and latter day prophets are the corrective lenses and the insurance that this human tendency to distort God’s word will never happen again. (The number of Christian churches alone plus the number of transations of the Bible are indicators that this Restoration and the Gathering are needful.) We are living in “the dispensation of the fulness of times” in which all things in heaven and on earth are being gathered together in one–all things in Christ. (Eph. 1:10) The Book of Mormon is the main gathering tool, and it has the power to gather from all areas of the world.

    John, I did go back to read your comments. They were true and insightful. While we do get some resistance from people who are not familiar with “real” Mormons nor the love and good will for all people within the Church, we have never been more accepted nor more able to work with other Christians in our communities than we are today. Genuine friendship and working together also tends to erase the fears out there and the feeling that we are a threat or a conspiracy that is still being promoted by churches who show anti-Mormon videos to “protect” their flocks. There are plenty of issues we can join hands with others to work on in this world.

    I actually love to write people like Brad for awhile to let them know how serious we are about our religion and that we’re not just “duped” into joining the Church. Much thought, prayer, answer to prayer, Bible reading under what I now recognize as the influence of the Holy Ghost (I didn’t know beans about this member of the Godhead when I was a punk), and proving the truth and wisdom of the teachings in both The Bible and The Book of Mormon for myself through obedience has gone into the formation of my continuing testimony of the truthfulness of the latter day work. “Where much is given, much is expected.” To Brad’s discontent, “I once was lost but now am found!”

  48. Brad said

    “And Joseph was a known fraud only to people who WANTED and insisted him to be a fraud so much that they were willing to slander him. (God have mercy upon their souls.) That’s why he was arrested over 25 times and released every time, and that’s why the cowardly mob of 150 people had to storm the jail to murder him. They couldn’t do it legally. Reminds me of ancient Jerusalem and…” (Amanda)

    Right, so nothing that history says he did wrong, he actually did wrong, it was all a big set-up, correct? He was never found guilty of anything, right? He was never jailed for a reason, right? And this is your first prophet and founder? And you have the audacity to compare Smith to Jesus in this instance? You just treaded dangerous ground there, Amanda.

    “I’m not sure the Bible says anything whatsoever about investigating it since it wasn’t even a complete entity when the individual books were written and most of them weren’t voted upon and approved as holy scripture by ecclesiastical council until several centuries later.” (Amanda)

    The Bible DOES say that the Bereans consulted the Scriptures, to see if what was being said was true. This means they consulted the Scriptures they had at that time (the OT); for Christians today, it means we consult the Scriptures we have (the OT & NT). It’s not a hard concept.

    “Moroni’s challenge goes like this on p.529: “Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.” (So far, you have been told that you should already know and ponder the things written in the Bible.)” (Amanda)

    But Amanda, Moroni’s challenge isn’t speaking of the Bible, is it? Isn’t it speaking of the BOM, and reading it?

    “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” (Amanda)

    Exactly my point. If you don’t find it to be true, it’s b/c you didn’t ask with a sincere heart, or with real intent, and you don’t have the faith in Christ necessary to get the answer. Humans don’t want to believe that, so they’ll say they receive the answer, which then confirms Mormonism. It’s manipulation, Amanda, to the highest degree. I didn’t say Smith wasn’t smart, I said he was a fraud and deceptive.

    “The Book of Mormon didn’t say, pray for a feeling; it said “the power of the Holy Spirit will manifest it to you.” (Amanda)

    But, to not consult the Bible to back this up, but rely solely on the feeling, is incorrect, according to the Bible. It leaves the door wide open to be misled, which many have been.

    “It is the “GIFT of the Holy Ghost” that is bestowed by the laying on of hands by the Elders after one is baptized. (And I hope you noticed that baptism was the next expected and required step after their conversions in the verses you quoted, just like it was with Paul after his vision was restored, and Cornelius after the Spirit manifested truth to him.)” (Amanda)

    He’s not given to us twice, Amanda. Scripture doesn’t say that. And you don’t need to do anything other than to receive salvation through faith in Christ to have Him live in you. And baptism was the next logical step, AFTER their salvation. But it is not a requirement FOR salvation. We’ve gone over that mistake a dozen times, Amanda.

    While the Bible does speak of laying on of hands in conjunction with the Holy Spirit, it is clear that that isn’t REQUIRED to receive it, b/c the Bible, as I just showed you, also speaks of receiving the Holy Spirit APART from the laying on of hands. Just b/c you found an example, doesn’t mean it is the only method.

    “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterpday Saints is the same church that Jesus established in his day with the same gifts and powers. I hardly think this is in conflict with the Bible unless you choose to erase the passages I have shared with you.” (Amanda)

    Absolutely not. And it is completely in conflict with the Bible, in numerous places, as we’ve hashed out over the last 6 months. You’re simply not correct on this one, Amanda.

    “I think I would have seen a lack of harmony and peace in a church founded upon lies, don’t you?” (Amanda)

    No, b/c Satan is the master deceiver, Amanda. You forget that. Couldn’t we say “I think Eve would not have been attracted to the fruit in the garden of Eden that wasn’t to be eaten, if it was a bad fruit and would lead to destruction?” No, b/c Satan tempted her, and she gave in. It’s the same principle.

    “And yet, there is no other organization I have seen that comes close in scope and vision and power and peace.” (Amanda)

    Another thing with Mormons – the high position that the “organization” is placed. Salvation has nothing to do with an “organization”, it has to do with Jesus. Nowhere does the LDS come into play for salvation, and more than the Baptists or the Methodists.

  49. Brad said

    “I’m happy to report that we Mormons agree with Brad heartily on this point. Unfortunately, due to 27 theological councils and Constantine’s influence in political expediency to solve the crisis in faith over the nature of the Godhead while accomodating the Greeek influence that had crept into the Church, traditional mainstream Christianity and Mormonism part ways over Biblical interpretation on subjects like the nature of the Godhead, the necessity of baptism, the Holy Ghost (who He is and what He does), the necessity of not just believing but repenting of sin and obeying God’s words and enduring to the end, the concept of damnation and heaven and hell, etc.” (Amanda)

    Gee, if mainstream Christianity and Mormonism are so different, especially on such essentials as what you note above, it’s pretty tough for Mormons who believe the LDS theology to call themselves Christians, isn’t it? Since they don’t believe at all what Christians believe? Thanks for helping illustrate that point. And while the LDS still continues to beat the Nicene Creed drum, I say again, the Trinity is demonstrated through the Bible, not through a creed.

    “I have found that more than not, the LDS interpretations are far more literal as to what the Bible actually says. We believe God himself has given anew the corrective lenses needed to understand the intent of the original writers in areas that had reached the point that they could no longer be understood properly in any other way. The Book of Mormon, the Church, and latter day prophets are the corrective lenses and the insurance that this human tendency to distort God’s word will never happen again.” (Amanda)

    Ah yes, more importance on the church and its texts and leaders. Just can’t get away from that.

    Amanda, I still continue to pray for you. I wish you could see the lies of Mormonism from my point of view.

  50. Amanda said

    I genuinely feel for you Brad….so much time, so little reading and understanding on that of which you speak.

    It is easy for us to get stuck in a rut of repetition, not even intentionally; but because we are not really listening to each other, we end up repeating ourselves in hopes that eventually one will understand and accept something/anything that has been offered with clarity. I feel your pain. We both know there are questions asked to believe and questions asked to fuel disbelief. You have only asked me the latter, and when I do answer them, from my perspective you do not acknowledge even the clearest points from the Bible that I give you. (You probably feel the same towards me from what you say.) That’s why you are not the one I am writing here. Some of your questions could still be helpful to sincere individuals.

    For instance, you say: “Ah yes, more importance on the church and its texts and leaders. Just can’t get away from that….”

    The all too obvious point to make about that comment would be that if you had a church, the origin of which was not of man but of God in its organization and authority (priesthood power), and you KNEW IT, you wouldn’t find stressing its importance objectionable.

    “Salvation has nothing to do with an “organization”, it has to do with Jesus.” (Brad)

    This is true, Brad, up to a point. Our prophets and apostles do not claim to have the authority to forgive sin or to save within themselves, but they can exercise “binding or sealing power” here and in heaven by the power of the priesthood Christ gave them and also waive penalties that would be given by the Church for sins that affect the Church and its membership.

    And what about the hand of the Master? Everything HE touches, organizes and commands is more than just something you can take or leave; it serves His purposes and is not just temporal but spiritual in nature. This is why receiving His gifts is essential if we claim to be Christians. If Jesus SAYS that baptism is necessary for salvation and that you cannot even see the kingdom of heaven without it, does it become necessary? When God told Moses to throw a tree into a bitter stream to make the water sweet, did that mean the tree was “essential” to their temporal salvation (meaning delivering their bodies from perishing)? Certainly not the tree in and of itself, but if they sought the blessing of clean water from the Lord and the tree was his chosen method, it mattered! When the Lord told Moses to lift up the brass serpent and tell the people that when they looked up to it after being bitten by poinsonous vipers they would be saved (their temporal lives, at least), did that mean that the brass serpent was “essential” for salvation? Actually, it did mean that if they wanted to continue to live in the flesh, they would have to look upon it. And because of the “simpleness of the way,” some just chose not to look and died. In our day, if we want to live spiritually, we must look up to the Savior’s great sacrifice on the cross in order to live a more abundant life here and be saved spiritually for all eternity. The means itself by which God chooses to bless us–even the cross itself– may not seem essential or even important, only in that He proclaimed that this would be His chosen way to execute His plan of salvation for mankind, and it fulfills scripture and prophecy. It is only important or essential because HE SAYS IT IS. Why? Because if we trulylove Him, we will exercise our faith in Him through obedience to His words. Else why should He prepare a means by which to bless His children–whether it be through washing ones’ self 7 times in a dirty river to cure leprosy because the Lord’s prophet said to or looking upon a brass serpent when one is in pain from a poisonous bite at the prophet’s word, or having the faith to drink from a river that Moses SAID is now sweet even though it was bitter before because one is “dying” of thirst. When something has been touched by the Master or organized or established by the Master, we are not His children if we are not obedient enough to receive His gift. We are blessed according to our faith, and faith precedes the miracle. Circumscision WAS essential at one time to a faithful Jew for salvation but only because God commanded it. It losts its essential nature after the Savior’s sacrifice. Then the required sacrifice became a “circumcised heart” that He required then and requires of us today.

    If we do not recognize the Holy Ghost when it witnesses to us after praying to know if the Bible or the Book of Mormon is true, if we do not even pray for discernment of truth through the Spirit to begin with, or we read about the Apostles giving the gift of the Holy Ghost but don’t care to know more or even believe there is a difference between just occasionally feeling or receiving His infulence (as you mentioned in scripture) or having Him as a constant companion, then how can we claim to be Christians after the pattern that Jesus set for us in the New Testament?

    My response to your comments about the Holy Ghost are Paul’s words in 1 Cor.2. Paul is talking to people who have been baptized and been bestowed with the gift of the Holy Ghost, members of the Church who are called simply “saints:”

    “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are feely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is JUDGED OF NO MAN. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

    Did Paul say here, Brad, that you will know spiritual things or the mind of Christ just and only by reading the Old Testament scriptures of the times? No. Is it possible to read the Bible and not have the presence of the Holy Ghost when you read it? Yes. We have the mind of Christ only when we have the Holy Ghost to help us understand and interpret. That is why there are so many churches and so many interpretations today. Which of them claim to interpret scripture according to the mind of God? Individuals truly can receive truth and inspiration for their own lives when they have the Spirit with them as they read, but not for the Lord’s Church. I would think that the Church with the Lord’s authority would be a Church who claims to have the gift of the Holy Ghost administered by God’s authority as it was in Christ’s original church. It remains God’s job, not man’s, to put the “backbone” or proof in the claim or declaration. Only the Holy Ghost can witness to you of the truthfulness of the claim made by such a church, and how has the Lord always established his truth–in the Old Testament and also the knew–by the mouths of two or more witnesses shall every truth be established.This is why the testimonies of others is important and tells me it is worth my while to find out about THIS church for myself and read the Book of Mormon with the Bible.

    All the reading you do in the Bible will not tell you if and which church today possesses a gift of such power and magnitude although ALL OF THE READING YOU OR I DO IN THE BIBLE WILL LAY THE FOUNDATION THROUGH WHICH THE SPIRIT CAN HELP WITNESS to such truth. (No one ever, especially me, told you not to read the Bible to help in your quest to receive a testimony of the work.) You have chosen to dismiss the myriad of times I have told you how important reading the Bible was in forming my own testimony of both the Book of Mormon and the Church itself.) But if you relegate the Holy Ghost to “just your own feelings” or think it foolishness to believe you may receive an answer from God through this fashion, you will never be able to say you “know,” only that you “think” or you “read,” and it will matter little which Christian church of the hundreds you join.

    In the Doctrine & Covenants 88:33, Joseph Smith was told by the Lord:
    “For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.”

    The Church is a gift from God just as is the Book of Mormon, and I rejoice in them both. Dare you try to interrupt my rejoicing? You can try, but once a spirit has been enlarged by the influence of God, it is counterproductive to look back or for an outside source to try to demean the source of my rejoicing since, in my opinion, when you unwittingly demean a gift of God, you are inadvertently demeaning God. Can you understand my reasoning?

    Brad says: “Couldn’t we say “I think Eve would not have been attracted to the fruit in the garden of Eden that wasn’t to be eaten, if it was a bad fruit and would lead to destruction?” No, b/c Satan tempted her, and she gave in. It’s the same principle.”

    Temptation was part of the plan for Adam and Eve just as it is for us, and none shall escape it. However, after Eve ate the forbidden fruit, do you think she felt inner peace? No, she feared her next interview with God because she now knew that she had chosen to die according to God’s words and also that she was naked. She wouldn’t feel appropriately comfortable in front of God in this state. As Jesus said, “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” (John 7:17) Did Eve do her Father’s will in a way that would let her continue in the status quo before Him when she ate the fruit? No, and this must have been unsettling. she knew there would be consequences. Did she have immediate peace as a result of her action? Not until she realized through revelation that she could eventually be reconciled with God. Satan cannot duplicate the peace that God gives us. When I joined the Church, if it had NOT been the will of the Father, I would not have KNOWN that it was of God, in the words of Jesus. I knew then, as I know now, that it IS of God.

    In fact, I knew nothing at that time of Joseph Smith, but because the Lord’s Spirit witnessed to me of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and of the Church, I knew that God would not sustain the work with His Spirit if Joseph were evil and not called of God. As I began to study his life too, I came to know the kind of man he was, and I do not hesitate to make comparisons between certain aspects of his life and the Savior’s. Every true prophet’s life in the Old Testament, and every Apostle’s in the New typifies in some ways the life of the Savior, and Joseph Smith of the Latter days is no exception. (Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son, Jonah and his 3 days in the belly of the big fish; Joseph of Egypt blessing with life sustaining food and forgiving all around him, even those brothers who cursed him and persecuted and sold him, even fallen men like Sampson, had he been faithful throughout his life, could have been compared to Christ in certain ways. King David, like Saul originally, both “fallen” kings, was a man “after the Lord’s own heart.” These were men called like Jeremiah and Job “before the world was” and fashioned by God in their lives to fulfill their prophetic callings and/or purposes. Even the greatest prophets were humble, mere mortals, and a few fell from grace, some repented, but God was able to use them as tools when and while they looked to Him for strength to administer His work on the earth.

    Joseph Smith was one who admitted his frailties, but those frailties were not the things he was arrested for. I do not hesitate to say that he is a prophet who has given us more scriptural knowledge and gifts of God through his administration upon the earth than any other mortal prophet except, of course, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, whose greatest gift to us, among an incomprehensible number of other incomparable and important gifts, beginning with our very bodies, the breath we take, and the earth we live on, is eternal life.

  51. Brad said

    “Joseph Smith was one who admitted his frailties, but those frailties were not the things he was arrested for. I do not hesitate to say that he is a prophet who has given us more scriptural knowledge and gifts of God through his administration upon the earth than any other mortal prophet except, of course, the Son of God, Jesus Christ.” (Amanda)

    The diatribe above can be summed up by this one paragraph. Look at the high importance you place on Smith. He has been shown to be a false prophet, not only by those who have studied Mormonism but never believed it or joined it, but also by those who have been Mormons, but have left after realizing it is built on a sham. The plates, the handshakes, the undergarments, the temple activities, the prophets, etc… – all of them based in quicksand! B/c it is all based on what Joseph Smith conjured up in his head! And prophets have believed it, b/c they have alluded to the importance, even the necessity, of Joseph Smith’s blessing to gain eternity in heaven (Joseph Fielding Smith, for example). You can say all you want that it’s based in Jesus Christ (at least the one you believe in), Amanda, but all the actions and words that not only you but other Mormons speak, says otherwise. Joseph Smith is the center of your religion.

  52. Amanda said

    Brad, does this mean you’ll be cancelling the new appointment I made for you with the missionaries? (Just kidding! Someone needs to lighten things up here.)

    There have been different dispensations of the gospel, or periods of time during which the Lord reveals or “dispenses” the doctrines of the gospel to men so that reliance need not be placed on past ages for this saving knowledge. Generally we have in mind those dispensations given to Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, the apostles in the meridian of time, and to Joseph Smith and his associates. Those souls who lived in each of these dispensations will be judged according to the heed they gave the words of truth which God had made available and known unto them personally, and we shall be “judged out of the books.” One could say that we’ll be our own judges before God, but Joseph’s blessing may be there as a witness for those who accepted God’s words from his mouth and translation, but it will not be he who determines our judgment nor our destiny. According to latter-day scripture,in D&C 76:51-55, we read that those who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just are…”They who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed, on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial…according to the commandment which he has given–That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith and are sealed by the Holy spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. they are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things–…who have received of his fulness, and of his glory.”

    That said, many who did not have knowledge or understanding or opportunity for all of the above here on earth will be there anyway. (I expect to see many, many, many valiant souls there from outside the church in our time, and of course, not everyone in the Church there by a long shot.) Provision has been made by our loving Father for the equity of each individual’s opportunities to hear and receive and overcome before the great and final Day of Judgment, for there are “many mansions” in Heaven.

    Joseph is a “central player” in the final dispensation, but he is most certainly NOT the center of our religion. It is Jesus Christ and His Atonement; all other things are appendages to that central teaching, as Joseph taught over and over.

  53. Amanda said

    PS Brad, if you had lived in Jesus’ time, would you refer to the gospel up to that time as a “sham”? I mean, the urim and thummim, the priesthood robes and Holy of Holies, chariots of fire, the wooden staff that turned into a snake when thrown down and was lifted over the Dead Sea to part the waters, the ARC full of animals, the bitter tree to sweeten the water, the manna and brass serpent, and bathing in the River Jordan, all that time Jesus spent in the temple which he called “his Father’s house,” all those baptisms and talk of the Holy Ghost! Because it seemed to be more complicated than the dispensation following the Apostolic one, should you dismiss the entire Old Testament as a farce? Some pretty weird stuff there.

    In the dispensation of the fulness of times and under which all things in heaven and earth are brought together under Christ, also called the times of the “restitution of all things,” one shouldn’t be surprised to see a few things reminiscent of times past–if God has a covenant people once more and is preparing them for the Second Coming of Christ–things like temples and food storage, family home evenings, and undergarments to remind us of our need to be modest and of the covenants we’ve made with Him in His holy House. It all depends upon whether or not one believes God can speak anew to us through revelation in these latter days.

    I am not asking you to accept the faith and become a Mormon, only to accept our sincerity and love for the Lord God and His Word and to dwell with us in peace wihtout malice. We have no malice toward you nor the beliefs you have that are based upon Christian tradition in addition to those of the Bible.

  54. Brad said

    “Brad, does this mean you’ll be cancelling the new appointment I made for you with the missionaries? (Just kidding! Someone needs to lighten things up here.)” (Amanda)

    No – feel free to send them my way, anytime. I love to talk to them 🙂

    I don’t need Joseph’s blessing, witness or anything to get to Heaven, nor anything at all related to the Mormon church, according to God Himself (through the Bible). All I need to do is believe that Christ is my Savior, through faith alone, and I have the free gift of salvation. Period.

  55. Brad said

    “PS Brad, if you had lived in Jesus’ time, would you refer to the gospel up to that time as a “sham”? I mean, the urim and thummim, the priesthood robes and Holy of Holies, chariots of fire, the wooden staff that turned into a snake when thrown down and was lifted over the Dead Sea to part the waters, the ARC full of animals, the bitter tree to sweeten the water, the manna and brass serpent, and bathing in the River Jordan, all that time Jesus spent in the temple which he called “his Father’s house,” all those baptisms and talk of the Holy Ghost! Because it seemed to be more complicated than the dispensation following the Apostolic one, should you dismiss the entire Old Testament as a farce? Some pretty weird stuff there.” (Amanda)

    No, I wouldn’t ever refer to the gospel, at any point in time, as a sham. Thing is, I don’t believe that Mormonism is based on the true gospel of Jesus Christ, Amanda, based on what the Bible teaches.

    “In the dispensation of the fulness of times and under which all things in heaven and earth are brought together under Christ, also called the times of the “restitution of all things,” one shouldn’t be surprised to see a few things reminiscent of times past–if God has a covenant people once more and is preparing them for the Second Coming of Christ–things like temples and food storage, family home evenings, and undergarments to remind us of our need to be modest and of the covenants we’ve made with Him in His holy House. It all depends upon whether or not one believes God can speak anew to us through revelation in these latter days.” (Amanda)

    I believe God COULD speak to us, if He wanted to (as He is omnipotent), but I don’t believe He does. I believe He has revealed everything necessary for our salvation and our relationship with Him in His Word, the Bible, and no other person or text is necessary to receive it. That is where Joseph Smith is wrong.

    “I am not asking you to accept the faith and become a Mormon, only to accept our sincerity and love for the Lord God and His Word and to dwell with us in peace wihtout malice. We have no malice toward you nor the beliefs you have that are based upon Christian tradition in addition to those of the Bible.” (Amanda)

    I’m glad you’re not after conversion, b/c (like you, I’m sure) conversion will never happen for me. I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, don’t get me wrong. You are hardcore. I just think your beliefs themselves are misplaced and erroneous. I have no malice towards you, or any Mormon. As I’ve said MANY times, I don’t hate Mormons, but I do hate Mormonism, b/c it is leading many people down the path away from God.

  56. Amanda said

    “I don’t need Joseph’s blessing, witness or anything to get to Heaven, nor anything at all related to the Mormon church, according to God Himself (through the Bible)” (Brad)

    Of course, you don’t, Brad. I didn’t mean to imply that you did. And neither do I, but I may get it anyway since I have made covenants with God and serve Him according to my faith in latter-day revelation as well as ancient. I expect to see Joseph standing as a witness of what God revealed to him as the prophet of the Restoration.

    Brad said: I believe God COULD speak to us, if He wanted to (as He is omnipotent), but I don’t believe He does.”

    And it is my duty to God, Brad, to testify to you that HAS, that I KNOW He has, and that He could do the same for you. This is news worth rejoicing over! I would much prefer to have “overwarned” and over shared with you that occurance than to stand before you in the life to come and have you ask me why I didn’t. THAT would be sad. Since I have most likely stirred the waters too much by doing it tenfold, I will cease and desist once more if it will help. Therefore, I would ask you not to feel compelled to respond to me if you ever read my posts on this website again. Repetition is good; it’s used often by the Lord, but enough is enough. Your thoughts were known to me before they were shared. They are easily found in the otherwise — Christian (usually Baptist) bookstores along with books against the Catholics and Moslems (Muslims) and Jehovah’s Witnesses. And since we are both at the point that the word “diatribe” describes what the other has to say, even when it is word for word from scripture, what’s the point?

    Just remember that hatred poisons the hater so much more than the object of his hate. The Church will continue to roll forth because the Lord has said “the field is white and ready to harvest.” (That’s true for Christian churches at large, and our membership is doubling every 10 years, so why not relax and trust God to do His own work through YOUR missiionaries as we do ours? If what you share meets all of one’s primary spiritual needs, then why should you fear people being pulled away? That way, no room will be made for the growing hatred in your heart, and it can more readily be submissive to God’s will. (You may not realize the bitterness and negativity that comes across in your communication.) No deception is practiced by the LDS Church or its members, and your concerns about my salvation are purely uninformed and subjective.

  57. Amanda said

    PS “Hardcore” comes from studying daily the Bible and Book of Mormon in addition to receiving the Holy Ghost and cultivating it in my life so that I will not be “tossed or turned by every wind or wave of doctrine.” (Eph.4)

  58. Brad said

    Amanda,

    We can stop at any time, that is fine. What I am doing is not primarily for your benefit, but for the benefit of anyone who may read, and get the (wrong) impression that Mormonism is OK, and just another Christian religion, which it is not. You have your beliefs, and I have mine, and they are based on 2 completely different views of Scripture, God, etc… I can’t change that, all I can do is pray. But when there’s a chance that others, who may not be well-informed, may read what is written here, I want to make sure my point is crystal clear. We are NOT all on the same path towards Heaven, and we will NOT all get there. Scripture is very clear on that.

    Amanda, you mistake what I say for hate for you, which I don’t have. I hate Mormonism (the religion), but not Mormons who practice it. What you view as “bitterness and negativity” is simply so b/c it goes against everything you say, b/c I don’t believe it is true. I’ll never believe it is true, b/c it isn’t, according to Scripture. I’m not bitter about it, I have no reason to be. But I do, and will continue to, try to warn others, before they fall in the trap of Mormonism. You are welcome to not heed anything I have to say, that is your right.

  59. Amanda said

    Brad said: “Amanda, you mistake what I say for hate for you, which I don’t have. I hate Mormonism (the religion), but not Mormons who practice it.”

    I was addressing the hate you have for my faith, not for me. It seems to be “eating you up.”

    Brad again: “What you view as “bitterness and negativity” is simply so b/c it goes against everything you say, b/c I don’t believe it is true. I’ll never believe it is true, b/c it isn’t, according to Scripture. I’m not bitter about it, I have no reason to be.”

    The bitterness and negativity is so NOT because of what you say; it is fine and only human to disagree with one witness (thus God’s law of two or more witnesses), and Satan can “wrest” the scriptures whenever he chooses; so I’m used to that. Remember the last “round” when I reminded you that while it is fine to disagree, it is NOT fine to be disagreeable? That is what I continue to address. You have trouble distinguishing the difference evidently, and habits are easy to get caught up in; but if you want to be more effective as a human being, not to mention in your work of attempting to prevent people from following the Good Spirit into Mormonism, you will have to drop the dripping sarcasm–at least for the ones already sensitive to the spirit of the Lord. It is not his way. Satan is the great mocker of that which is good. Jesus doesn’t have to mock that which isn’t. The truth melts it away.

    Finally, Brad said, “But I do, and will continue to, try to warn others, before they fall in the trap of Mormonism.”

    I guess I can’t expect you to do what I’m NOT willing to do myself (cease to warn others), so future conversations between us will be inevitable should I continue to stumble upon such exchanges about my faith again on the blog. It isn’t really often that I check it out. If the radio station would take my suggestion to have an “Ask the Mormons Directly!” show instead of going for a “Pro and Con” format and then having our people spend all of their remaining time playing “catch up” trying to hopelessly attempt to clarify all the serious misconceptions verbally thrown out like weed seeeds from the “cons” every time, we might actually make progress in audience understanding of what LDS members do believe, and you and I would not have to have the exact same discussions over and over.

    I would never recommend “debating” or talking on the air with someone who presumes to know a faith better than its own members nor with one who would have to admit he thinks the representatives of the Church are lying or trying to mislead people at every turn. (In short, someone who, as judge, held his own jury and reached a conviction while the Mormons were OUT of the building!) Charity and the Golden Rule dictate that our missionaries and members maintain a respectful countenance (Haven’t I done better this time?) and stick to the words of the Bible and message of the Restoration instead of telling others what THEY believe based upon the writings and flawed “research” of people who write “anti” books for a living.
    People can pray and read the Bible for themselves and scripture–search to see what Jesus actually says about His own Gospel, then ask if it is true–if they believe God answers prayers.

    Besides, I can unfortunately hear pretty much any day of the week in WTRU’s between show commercials that Mormon missionaries are out there “telling lies.” Red flag number one. Bearing such false witness ended any hope long ago for anything good to come of an on-air exchange with whomever they might approve. The station could not appear to be supporting the Mormons in any way lest they feel the heat from those who bring in the bread and butter to keep them on the air. And that’s the rest of the story!

  60. Brad said

    Amanda, TTL nor WTRU isn’t a Mormon station, and thus doesn’t support Mormons – did you really expect any different? I’m surprised that you’re shocked that you hear things like that on that particular radio program.

    “…if you want to be more effective as a human being, not to mention in your work of attempting to prevent people from following the Good Spirit into Mormonism, you will have to drop the dripping sarcasm–at least for the ones already sensitive to the spirit of the Lord.” (Amanda)

    Dripping sarcasm duly noted.

    Again, Amanda, my “hatred” (it’s really more dislike, hatred is pretty strong) is for Mormonism, not Mormons. It doesn’t “eat me up”, in other words, it’s not the only thing I focus on. But making sure others know the difference is important to me.

    I welcome the radio station to have a group of Mormons on there, all alone, if they wish. You’ll STILL get numerous calls from people who KNOW BETTER. You seem to think that the only people who know anything about Mormonism are current Mormons, that nobody else can have any (correct) knowledge about it. That’s just not true. And I LOVE the continued references to “anti” books – we’re just all out to get Mormons, just for fun! 🙂

    “People can pray and read the Bible for themselves and scripture–search to see what Jesus actually says about His own Gospel, then ask if it is true–if they believe God answers prayers.” (Amanda)

    Boy, ain’t this the truth. I would definitely encourage anyone who is seeking out the Lord in their life to do this – to read the Bible, search the Scripture, and pray that God reveal the truth to them through it. I think that’s a great idea, and it is what we’re commanded to do, according to the Bible.

  61. Amanda said

    I see that change IS possible for you, Brad. Thank you for making an effort to be less hostile in that last exchange.

    “Amanda, TTL nor WTRU isn’t a Mormon station, and thus doesn’t support Mormons – did you really expect any different?” (Brad)

    Of course, Brad. Where were you the time I shared with you my very positive and warm fuzzy experience appearing on a Raleigh radio station talk show with 4 other Mormons? It was a wonderful experience with excellent calls and people who actually treated us like real people with brains and without a sinister agenda! Believe it or not, you folks are the exception, and until I moved to the Winston-Salem area, I had never heard an openly accusatory commercial toward another church on a radio station. Most people and professionals, in particular, look for the best in people–especially a positive, peaceful, helpful, happy, caring people like the “Mormons.” (This would include the likelihood that such people are usually quite honest.)

    “It doesn’t “eat me up”,(your hatred for the Church which you’ve mentioned at least 10 times in the three times we’ve been writing)

    I dunno, Brad, you spend an inordinant amount of time writing with passion about something you have not OBJECTIVELY researched. I know you haven’t researched objectively because you have rarely responded to a single point I have made, particularly a scriptural point, objectively or even considered doing so. No one’s beliefs when taken directly from the Bible are wrong 98% of the time– or hilarious, or ridiculous, etc.

    “You’ll STILL get numerous calls from people who KNOW BETTER.” (Brad)
    You mean, I’ll still get calls from people who think they know better than ME! When 75% of the information in a book is flawed or slanted and there is an agenda from the beginning to the end (or at least from after the first chapter to the end) to denigrate, no matter how subtly, the book is usually written from a basis of fear, revenge, ignorance, intelligent smugness (pride) or laziness. There are perhaps two or three individuals, like Jan Shipps, who have made a career of writing about the Mormons from an intellectual approach, and while I respect her sane, respectful, more honest and more palatable approach, she still knows very little to nothing about the spiritual aspect of the Church. She has never experienced it, and until you eat salt, you don’t know what salt tastes like. I can’t determine absolutely, of course, whether or not the only resources you choose to read for your information about Mormons are from non-Mormon sources with negative, no–matter–what, agendas with excerpts taken self-servingly from genuine Mormon writings, but your writing is so obviously (surely not just to me) in that vein and so incorrect or misleading–even your supposed conversations with other “Mormons”, that it doesn’t even approach the word “objective.” I spent 9 months researching the Church, remember, before I joined, so I know what’s out there, and “antiMormon” literature is the honest but kind name for it–even in the libraries. Most of us woke up to the need in the 1980’s to officially contribute at least a few books on the library shelves concerning religion from the actual Mormon experience, including the Book of Mormon. Until then, I was unable to even find one in Raleigh libraries that WASN’T “anti.”

    “I would definitely encourage anyone who is seeking out the Lord in their life to do this – to read the Bible, search the Scripture, and pray that God reveal the truth to them through it.” (Brad)

    That’s a first, Brad. (Should I trust the new Brad?) 🙂
    If you can trust God to reveal truth in any form through prayer, why can you not trust Him to reveal if the Book of Mormon is true? It is a “thing,” and God has said in the Bible to “prove all things” and “hold fast that which is good.” Also, why do you instantly assume that if anyone, and I mean ANYone, gets a positive answer from God, even one who is reading the Bible as he does so and perhaps has been reading all of his or her life, he or she is deceived?

    You have some ‘splainin’ to do, Lucy!”

  62. Amanda said

    Important PS:

    To Brad or anyone who might refer to this topic at such a late date.

    Brad asked a question–a good one, and even gave me room to answer it by asking …”is it?” I appreciate that and had so much to say after on other topics that exchange that I forgot to address it!

    It was in Post #48: …”But Amanda, Moroni’s challenge isn’t speaking of the Bible, is it? Isn’t it speaking of the BOM, and reading it?”

    The challenge WAS talking about what we know today as “The Bible” since the Book of Mormon starts around 600BC, and all the words the prophets had brought with them from Jerusalem on their plates were the words of Old Testament Prophets. These prophets in the ancient Americas added to the plates from their experiences with God too, but when he referred to the things containing “how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of me, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things,” he was addressing people of his time and talking about God’s words from Genesis down to the present. Much of it would become the Bible, and the plates he used contained the Pentateuch and other writings of OT prophets, including many chapter of Isaiah which are almost directly with a few exceptions from the Bible.

    Today, when we read “Moroni’s challenge,” it also includes the experiences with God of these people led out of Jerusalem (which was about to be destroyed, The Book of Mormon as we know it today, which includes many portions of Isaiah (translated with only a few differences) directly as are found in the Bible today in addition to the words of other OT prophets. Moroni’s edited a great many plates to have only the most important messages to us spiritually. It was preserved especially for our day because the Nephites are to be paralleled to our society and their fate is a warning to us if we do not learn from their example. The “pride cycle” is their primary example by which God blesses them (even delivers them from captitivy) when they are humble; then they forget God as they are prospered in the land. They become prideful, forget to remember the poor, start being contentious and getting blood thirsty, and are either humbled or destroyed.
    Many, many other important lessons to be learned and knowledge about Christ.

  63. Brad said

    “I see that change IS possible for you, Brad. Thank you for making an effort to be less hostile in that last exchange.” (Amanda)

    Dripping sarcasm duly noted, as before.

    “Of course, Brad. Where were you the time I shared with you my very positive and warm fuzzy experience appearing on a Raleigh radio station talk show with 4 other Mormons? It was a wonderful experience with excellent calls and people who actually treated us like real people with brains and without a sinister agenda! Believe it or not, you folks are the exception, and until I moved to the Winston-Salem area, I had never heard an openly accusatory commercial toward another church on a radio station. Most people and professionals, in particular, look for the best in people–especially a positive, peaceful, helpful, happy, caring people like the “Mormons.” (This would include the likelihood that such people are usually quite honest.)” (Amanda)

    Amanda, at no point have you not been treated as a person. What has happened is that your views and opinions have been vehemently disagreed with. And they will continue to be, b/c they are misplaced in a religion that is not of God. WTRU, being a Christian radio station, though I can’t speak for them officially, I would assume has a similar take on Mormonism.

    “I dunno, Brad, you spend an inordinant amount of time writing with passion about something you have not OBJECTIVELY researched. I know you haven’t researched objectively because you have rarely responded to a single point I have made, particularly a scriptural point, objectively or even considered doing so. No one’s beliefs when taken directly from the Bible are wrong 98% of the time– or hilarious, or ridiculous, etc.” (Amanda)

    Amanda, I’ve responded to everything you’ve written. After nearly every post of yours is a post of mine, isn’t there?? Especially the Scriptural points. I haven’t, and won’t, respond to most of what you say from non-Biblical sources (BOM, POGP, D&C, etc…), b/c I don’t believe they are Scripture, and thus no more relevant to this conversation than any newspaper or magazine. And I would agree that if one’s beliefs are taken directly from the Bible (and IF that person’s understanding of the Bible is CORRECT), then they will be right. You, however, along with Mormonism, do not fit that description. You are still under the belief that b/c I don’t agree, I must not have objectively researched Mormonism. No, I know about it, but still don’t agree.

    “You mean, I’ll still get calls from people who think they know better than ME!” (Amanda)

    It has nothing to do with you, it has to do with your religion and your religion’s beliefs. That’s what people don’t agree with.

    “When 75% of the information in a book is flawed or slanted and there is an agenda from the beginning to the end (or at least from after the first chapter to the end) to denigrate, no matter how subtly, the book is usually written from a basis of fear, revenge, ignorance, intelligent smugness (pride) or laziness. There are perhaps two or three individuals, like Jan Shipps, who have made a career of writing about the Mormons from an intellectual approach, and while I respect her sane, respectful, more honest and more palatable approach, she still knows very little to nothing about the spiritual aspect of the Church.” (Amanda)

    Yes, it’s all one big conspiracy, propagated by un-intelligent people who know absolutely nothing about Mormonism. We’re all out to get the Mormons, just for the fun of it, and none of us know anything about which we speak. We’re all anti’s – I’ve got to get some bumper stickers made, so the world knows!! 🙂

    “She has never experienced it, and until you eat salt, you don’t know what salt tastes like.” (Amanda)

    Unless you eat poop, you don’t know what it tastes like either, but I do know what it looks and smells like, and that’s enough evidence for me to know I don’t WANT to know what it tastes like, and that it wouldn’t be good for me. There’s no difference with Mormonism. It doesn’t “taste” any different than what people assume it does, based on its “smell” or “sight.”

    “I can’t determine absolutely, of course, whether or not the only resources you choose to read for your information about Mormons are from non-Mormon sources with negative, no–matter–what, agendas with excerpts taken self-servingly from genuine Mormon writings, but your writing is so obviously (surely not just to me) in that vein and so incorrect or misleading–even your supposed conversations with other “Mormons”, that it doesn’t even approach the word “objective.” (Amanda)

    See comment above. Anti, anti, anti, anti…

    “I spent 9 months researching the Church, remember, before I joined, so I know what’s out there,” (Amanda)

    Is that 9 WHOLE months? And everything that you now believe to be “anti”, you’ve come to that conclusion all on your own, right, with no influence from other Mormons, the church, etc…?

    “If you can trust God to reveal truth in any form through prayer, why can you not trust Him to reveal if the Book of Mormon is true?” (Amanda)

    But that’s not what I said, Amanda. Look back at what I said, and you’ll see I said “to read the Bible, search the Scripture, and pray that God reveal the truth to them THROUGH it (meaning Scripture).” Not to just pray and not read the Bible and wait for a feeling, but to read God’s Word and ask God for the Holy Spirit to help you understand what His Word means. I stick to that. But at no point does this reference any OTHER book than the Bible.

    “Also, why do you instantly assume that if anyone, and I mean ANYone, gets a positive answer from God, even one who is reading the Bible as he does so and perhaps has been reading all of his or her life, he or she is deceived?” (Amanda)

    I don’t, and I never said that. I believe the deception comes in when the LDS church says the Bible isn’t good enough, that you also have to have these OTHER sources, or you’re not REALLY saved like you should be, b/c the Mormon church is the only “true” church, since everything else is based in apostasy. If someone reads the Bible, prays to God for help in determining an answer, and gets it, that’s Biblical answer to prayer. It’s when they go outside the Bible that it gets them into trouble.

  64. Brad said

    “Brad asked a question–a good one, and even gave me room to answer it by asking …”is it?” I appreciate that and had so much to say after on other topics that exchange that I forgot to address it!

    It was in Post #48: …”But Amanda, Moroni’s challenge isn’t speaking of the Bible, is it? Isn’t it speaking of the BOM, and reading it?”

    The challenge WAS talking about what we know today as “The Bible” since the Book of Mormon starts around 600BC, and all the words the prophets had brought with them from Jerusalem on their plates were the words of Old Testament Prophets. These prophets in the ancient Americas added to the plates from their experiences with God too, but when he referred to the things containing “how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of me, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things,” he was addressing people of his time and talking about God’s words from Genesis down to the present. Much of it would become the Bible, and the plates he used contained the Pentateuch and other writings of OT prophets, including many chapter of Isaiah which are almost directly with a few exceptions from the Bible.

    Today, when we read “Moroni’s challenge,” it also includes the experiences with God of these people led out of Jerusalem (which was about to be destroyed, The Book of Mormon as we know it today, which includes many portions of Isaiah (translated with only a few differences) directly as are found in the Bible today in addition to the words of other OT prophets. Moroni’s edited a great many plates to have only the most important messages to us spiritually. It was preserved especially for our day because the Nephites are to be paralleled to our society and their fate is a warning to us if we do not learn from their example. The “pride cycle” is their primary example by which God blesses them (even delivers them from captitivy) when they are humble; then they forget God as they are prospered in the land. They become prideful, forget to remember the poor, start being contentious and getting blood thirsty, and are either humbled or destroyed.
    Many, many other important lessons to be learned and knowledge about Christ.” (Amanda)

    I’ll just respond to this whole thing by saying one word – “bull.” Don’t let Mormons deceive you for a second, folks. If ALL they wanted you to do was to read the Bible, and pray to God and ask if it was true, and stick solely to the Bible, you wouldn’t have Mormonism. No, Mormonism goes much deeper, b/c it also asks you to give creedence to the BOM, the POGP, the D&C, Joseph Smith, the current prophet, the LDS church in general, the temple rituals, etc… There is MUCH more than simply reading the Bible and praying about it – don’t believe that line of crap for a second. Deceiving, is what it is.

  65. Summer said

    Back on the “Interview with a Wiccan” website the Moderater at one point came on and gave John this talk about how we all had to ” adhere to common courtesy”, and so on, and so forth,when adressing each other.
    Have the rules changed?It seems so after reading Brads statements to Amanda.

  66. Brad said

    Summer,

    I never complained to anyone about John’s comments – the moderators, whoever they are, saw fit to address them. Just wanted to make sure you knew that.

    However, since you feel the need to complain here, let me say that I believe on that blog what the moderators took exception to is the PERSONAL attacks that John made. Nowhere on this blog, at any time, have I PERSONALLY attacked Amanda, nor has she PERSONALLY attacked me. She and I disagree, vehemently, on this particular subject of Mormonism, but I do at least respect her ability to hold an interesting and candid argument, using whatever metaphors, examples or words she wishes to. I can’t say the same thing about John.

  67. John said

    My, my, how defensive we seem to be when criticized[big grin].
    You compared Amanda’s denomination to poop.That sounds rather personal to me.You respect her?It doesn’t come off that way.
    You did seem to be crossing that line,vehemently, or not.
    I found it cute,too,how you found a way to get my name in there.I guess you just couldn’t help yourself,eh? If I had made such replies to you, like you have made to Amanda, no doubt the gentle William would have had plenty to say about it.Why this big,roaring,fight to try and “prove”that everyone who’s not like you is wrong?
    I still think that you come off as a spiritually insecure nit-picker,which is most amusing.It has become one of my favorite things to get on my parents computer and read what you’re arguing about.Keep up the good work!

  68. Amanda said

    “Yes, it’s all one big conspiracy, propagated by un-intelligent people who know absolutely nothing about Mormonism.” (Brad)

    This is too “rich” a comment for me to take advantage of although I hope you won’t be offended if I enjoy it for just a moment. I just want YOU to read and ponder it one more time.(Far be it from me to disagree with EVERYthing you say, Brad. 😉

    Truthfully, I don’t think or claim that any of you are “un-intelligent,” only that you have bad information about the Church born of bias, fear, and sometimes malice by people with an agenda. There ARE som sincere individuals who are not intentionally misleading others about LDS beliefs–like James Dobson, but whose assumptions are still full of errors because of their errant resources and lack of firsthand knowledge.

    “There is MUCH more than simply reading the Bible and praying about it…Deceiving, is what it is.”
    (Brad)

    Yes, there is also reading the Book of Mormon along with it. And how would you know it is deceiving if you haven’t read it?

    “Amanda, at no point have you not been treated as a person.” (Brad)

    I believe the comment was “a person with a brain,” Brad. No one with a brain would join the “Church of Cyanide” you describe and love it and live it for 30 years. (John very eloquently addressed the “poop” issue.)

    “Is that 9 WHOLE months? And everything that you now believe to be “anti”, you’ve come to that conclusion all on your own,….” (Brad)

    No, all of the things we’ve mentioned–the Bible, The Book of Mormon, prayer, the good examples, testimonies, and spirit of the members of the Church as well as the wisdom in the organization of the Church–went into my research and opinions, but it was the witness of the Holy Ghost to a sincere seeker of God’s will that landed the conclusion. (Actually, I had it after one month, but my husband was much slower in caring enough to get involved, much less to get an answer from God. I kept on researching the whole time though, and we were finally baptized together.)

    “I believe the deception comes in when the LDS church says the Bible isn’t good enough, that you also have to have these OTHER sources, or you’re not REALLY saved like you should be, b/c the Mormon church is the only “true” church,” (Brad)

    This is probably a very common feeling among some Christians who know “a little but not enough” about the Church. I wish I could change that perception because this is definitely not the message of the Church. Please go to http://www.LDS.org and read the General Conference talks which took place last Sat. and Sunday–any of them. Elder Ballard’s (Sat. 4 pm session), Elder Holland’s and Elder Nelson’s in particular. Therein is the message of the Church. They speak God’s will for us today as leaders of His Church.

    It actually hurts to hear anyone say that we don’t think the Bible is “good enough.” How can the Word of God NOT be “good enough?” It is one absolute and truthful witness of God’s dealings with the Israelites, his chosen people, and also chronicles the coming of Christ, His life, and the establishment of His Church which became open to the Gentiles in the day of the Apostles. That church and authority to administer in it was withdrawn because of wickedness and the deaths of the Apostles at the hand of wicked men. Without the Apostles to keep writing and visiting the churches, error continued to creep into the church, the dark ages soon came, and God eventually prepared a country with enough freedom to restore His original church by the 1800’s. A second witness of the testament of Jesus Christ was needed to verify the first testament (The Bible) and renew the covenant that Jesus Christ makes with all willing people through the authority and foundation He had established. It re-establishes the gospel and doctrine of Jesus Christ which has been turned “every which way but loose” throughout generations by whoever wanted to establish his own agenda–some for money, some for fame and popularity, some for deceptive purposes. I actually trust that if you really love the Lord, Brad, you will find real value–even if you are not prepared to receive an answer from God about its origin–in the Book of Mormon.There will be no “evil” residue of thought from your reading it.

    “…you’re not REALLY saved like you should be, b/c the Mormon church is the only “true” church,” (the second part of Brad’s statement)

    This makes me sad too because who would say that James Dobson and other great Christians are not saved like they should be? Not me. These are men and women who have definitely in our opinion received the testimony of Jesus and given their lives to Him, who serve Him with all of their might, mind and strength–far more effectively than I and many other members of the LDS church do. I believe Dobson is right where the Lord wants him to be and is fulfilling his purpose on earth in a way that a Mormon might not be able to because of public opinion which might limit the ministry. God loves all of his children, and they need righteous leaders in whatever form they are prepared to receive them. I also believe that Dobson couldn’t BE more converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ as he knows it and as the Spirit has taught him through the Bible. I also believe that one day–maybe not in this life, he will learn about and receive the “marvelous work and a wonder” foretold in the Old and New Testaments with all the keys, powers and authority there are in the Church as he enters into eternal life. I know he’ll be there, and we will have the same knowledge of the Savior and His church by then.

    The church being the only “true and living church” just means that it contains the fulness of truth that God has restored to the earth. All churches have some truth, some more than others as they interpret and give heed to Biblical teachings. Non-Christian churches also have some truths in them through what we would call “the light of Christ” that comes with all of us into the world–our consciences. The Lord’s restored church is like the broken mirror that could not be fully pieced together but had to be restored by God Himself to be whole again. It would not have erroneous principles mixed in with the truth. It is “living” because Jesus stands at the head and inspires a living prophet to lead and direct the Church in the pattern He established Himself (Amos 3:7, Eph.2:19-21 and Eph. 4:11-14) and because we have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost, if we cultivate and use it properly, to guide us. I’m sure there are many outside the Church that live up to their potential and gifts more fully than some of us, but that does not diminish the genuine origin and nature of the gifts we receive in the Church.

  69. Brad said

    Amanda, you can attempt to sidestep around all the issues, but people know better. Despite what you say, I KNOW that what I say about the LDS church is true. It’s echoed by too many others, including ex-Mormons who have left the church, many for the very reasons we debate today.

    If the Bible IS good enough (as you say, and as you say the Church believes), then there is NO need for any other “books” to help us. Do you think the BOM is not necessary any longer? If you answer this question the way I know you believe, you have put yourself into a quandry, b/c to answer “yes” says you don’t need the BOM, and thus you wouldn’t need to be a Mormon. To answer “no” means that your statement about the Bible being good enough really isn’t true. That’s what Mormonism does with the tough questions – it sets up quandries that can’t be escaped from, no matter how hard you try.

    Do you believe that Dobson, who is not a Mormon, will reach the fullness of salvation (your so-called “celestial” kingdom) with ONLY the Bible, and no Mormon beliefs? B/c if the Bible is indeed “good enough”, as you say, he should be able to. Your beliefs, however, indicate otherwise.

  70. Amanda said

    Brad, my friend, does everything have to be a “quandry” or a “competition” or a “show down?” Surely you don’t need someone to oppose that badly. The answers to your questions have already been given before, and I must ask you a question in return:

    Was the Old Testament “good enough” for those who loved God in Old Testament times? Will they be in Heaven? I believe they will, but not just because they lived according to the Law of Moses (which was the only gospel they had at the time, a preparatory gospel according to the Book of Mormon to bring them unto Christ, but because The Law typified the sacrifice of the Christ to come. Will they have to know of and accept Jesus Christ, the actual Son of God, whom the Law of Moses typified before they receive celestial glory? I believe they will. They’ll have been taught what they–for whatever reason–didn’t have access to here– and will accept and be judged according to God in the spirit). According to 2 Peter 4:6, they will have the same knowledge I do. They, the obedient, faithful ones at that time, lived for the sacrifice of the Messiah to come while we today live for the sacrifice that already took place. It is important that we have personal knowledge of the Savior for ourselves before the day of judgment and assignment of glory.

    The New Testament was and is “enough and more” for the times of the Gentiles; the Law of Moses was “enough” for those in Moses’ day (only because they were not prepared to live the full gospel of Jesus Christ at that time, and God had mercy upon them), but the work of the Father includes the gathering of Israel, and the Book of Mormon is now needed to gather all things into one under Christ in the latter days as part of the “restitution of all things.” Since it is the same gospel, the true and living gospel of Jesus Christ, which does the gathering, it’s not like anyone is getting a different gospel from the one Jesus taught in his day–just the real thing, reiterated and unadulterated, as it was given from the mouth of the Lord originally through his apostles. If the Israelites had not been “ditching” everything Moses had taught them during the time he was on Mt. Sinai with God, they would have received the higher gospel instead of a law of carnal commandments–provisions, ceremonies, and prohibitions that became altered and burdensome and known as the “traditions of the elders.”.

    “Do you believe that Dobson, who is not a Mormon, will reach the fullness of salvation (your so-called “celestial” kingdom) with ONLY the Bible, and no Mormon beliefs? B/c if the Bible is indeed “good enough”, as you say, he should be able to. Your beliefs, however, indicate otherwise.” (Brad)

    I DO believe that Dobson will reach the fullness of salvation in God’s (not mine) celestial kingdom, AND I believe that after his death, he will learn of the restoration and the fulness of the same gospel (all I know and more) that was restored to the earth before he reaches his final assignment of of glory.) I’ll be learning a lot myself before my final assignment about principles I was resistant to learning here even though they were in the scriptures I held, proclaimed, and tried to live.

    In short, I believe we will all have the same knowledge of God in the celestial kingdom and that those who were most faithful to what they knew was true here will also be the most rewarded and faithful to what they are given there.

    PS This is not sidestepping; it’s doing the best I can to make it clear to you.

  71. Brad said

    “Was the Old Testament “good enough” for those who loved God in Old Testament times? Will they be in Heaven? I believe they will, but not just because they lived according to the Law of Moses (which was the only gospel they had at the time, a preparatory gospel according to the Book of Mormon to bring them unto Christ, but because The Law typified the sacrifice of the Christ to come. Will they have to know of and accept Jesus Christ, the actual Son of God, whom the Law of Moses typified before they receive celestial glory? I believe they will. They’ll have been taught what they–for whatever reason–didn’t have access to here– and will accept and be judged according to God in the spirit). According to 2 Peter 4:6, they will have the same knowledge I do. They, the obedient, faithful ones at that time, lived for the sacrifice of the Messiah to come while we today live for the sacrifice that already took place. It is important that we have personal knowledge of the Savior for ourselves before the day of judgment and assignment of glory.” (Amanda)

    At no point is our salvation based upon a book, but upon our faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior. For those in the OT, they were saved not based upon having seen Christ (since He hadn’t come yet) nor upon His death on the cross (which hadn’t happened yet), but upon their faithfulness to God and the promises He gave. As such, it wasn’t based upon the OT, per se, but upon faith in God. Do I believe that the OT saints had to do anything further for salvation, after they died (such as accept Christ)? No, b/c that would imply that something is necessary to effect salvation which is possible to do after death, which the Bible doesn’t teach. And I assume you mean 1st Peter, rather than 2nd Peter, in your above quoted verse. As we’ve hashed out before, I believe the LDS (and your) interpretation of that section of verses is completely wrong.

    “The New Testament was and is “enough and more” for the times of the Gentiles; the Law of Moses was “enough” for those in Moses’ day (only because they were not prepared to live the full gospel of Jesus Christ at that time, and God had mercy upon them), but the work of the Father includes the gathering of Israel, and the Book of Mormon is now needed to gather all things into one under Christ in the latter days as part of the “restitution of all things.” Since it is the same gospel, the true and living gospel of Jesus Christ, which does the gathering, it’s not like anyone is getting a different gospel from the one Jesus taught in his day–just the real thing, reiterated and unadulterated, as it was given from the mouth of the Lord originally through his apostles. If the Israelites had not been “ditching” everything Moses had taught them during the time he was on Mt. Sinai with God, they would have received the higher gospel instead of a law of carnal commandments–provisions, ceremonies, and prohibitions that became altered and burdensome and known as the “traditions of the elders.” (Amanda)

    See, so what you’re basically saying is “No, the Bible is not enough, b/c w/o the BOM, the full “gathering” wouldn’t take place.” So, Amanda, your REAL answer is “No”, though to those who don’t know better, you (and the LDS church) like to portray your answer as “Yes.” Deceptive.

    “I DO believe that Dobson will reach the fullness of salvation in God’s (not mine) celestial kingdom, AND I believe that after his death, he will learn of the restoration and the fulness of the same gospel (all I know and more) that was restored to the earth before he reaches his final assignment of of glory.) I’ll be learning a lot myself before my final assignment about principles I was resistant to learning here even though they were in the scriptures I held, proclaimed, and tried to live.” (Amanda)

    Again, Amanda, your REAL answer is “No, without further Mormon teachings, he isn’t there currently, but he’ll get there after death, but only with further Mormon teachings.” However, those teachings aren’t in the Bible, but in other LDS literature, thus the Bible itself (going back to my original question) isn’t enough to gain access to the celestial kingdom. Again, deceptive with the answers.

    “In short, I believe we will all have the same knowledge of God in the celestial kingdom and that those who were most faithful to what they knew was true here will also be the most rewarded and faithful to what they are given there.” (Amanda)

    And thus the apparent inclusivism of Mormonism shines through. “We’ll all make it somehow, but it really all happens after death, not before, but we’ll make it.” Yes, it’s a much easier pill to swallow, Amanda, for you as it was for Joseph Smith. But it’s not true, unfortunately. Nicer to think about, that’s for sure, but not realistic, according to the Bible.

  72. Amanda said

    Actually, Brad, my message is that we’ve already “made it,” but before God is finished with us and we are dwelling together in the celestial kingdom (who will you want to oppose then, Brad?), we will all have the same knowledge of his great plan of salvation and happiness. Now, isn’t that simple, Brad? You seem to want to complicate things so and still think you can teach me what I REALLY believe. In no response were your readings accurate, but I compliment you on sharing your personal opinions. It’s been fun, as usual.

    Amanda

  73. Amanda said

    PS We’ve “already “made it” here since we are bound to our God by His Spirit unless we sever that relationship ourselves along the way through our choices and desires.

    (I wanted to get that in before you try to restate in your own words and thoughts what I was saying.”

  74. Amanda said

    One more comment about Dobson and knowledge of the Lord:

    I don’t pretend to know exactly when all the “blanks” will be filled in for mankind regarding our knowledge of the Lord and his Church upon the earth, but just as the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord “as the waters cover the sea” during the Millennium (Isa. 11:9), I have no doubt (and latter day revelation confirms) that teaching continues in the next life, and those who were valiant in this life and humbly desired knowledge of the Lord in spirit and in truth will receive it in fulness-if not here, then there. It matters not to me whether it is before or after they receive their eternal inheritance, and we do not go around teaching either way. We know the importance of receiving truth here, and we also know that only God can judge hearts and opportunity, etc. God’s timing is all that counts, not our limited speculation and limited understanding of the fulness of the scriptures–such as in what year the Second Coming occurs!

  75. Brad said

    “Actually, Brad, my message is that we’ve already “made it,” but before God is finished with us and we are dwelling together in the celestial kingdom (who will you want to oppose then, Brad?), we will all have the same knowledge of his great plan of salvation and happiness. Now, isn’t that simple, Brad? You seem to want to complicate things so and still think you can teach me what I REALLY believe. In no response were your readings accurate, but I compliment you on sharing your personal opinions. It’s been fun, as usual.” (Amanda)

    Amanda, as I responded earlier to your comment, I believe my earlier response still fits as a response to what you wrote above: “And thus the apparent inclusivism of Mormonism shines through. ‘We’ll all make it somehow, but it really all happens after death, not before, but we’ll make it.’ Yes, it’s a much easier pill to swallow, Amanda, for you as it was for Joseph Smith. But it’s not true, unfortunately. Nicer to think about, that’s for sure, but not realistic, according to the Bible.”

    As I said, and as you illustrate, you believe (as I noted) that we’ll all make it eventually. It’s a nice thought, but not Scriptural in any sense, unfortunately.

  76. Brad said

    “We’ve ‘already made it’ here since we are bound to our God by His Spirit unless we sever that relationship ourselves along the way through our choices and desires.

    (I wanted to get that in before you try to restate in your own words and thoughts what I was saying.” (Amanda)

    Only problem with that is, is that different people/religious groups have much different takes on who Jesus is, what you need to do for salvation, etc… So it’s not as easy as saying “we’ve already made it”, b/c many people who think they’re OK eternally, in fact, are as far away from it as they could possibly be, unfortunately. This includes the LDS church.

  77. Brad said

    “One more comment about Dobson and knowledge of the Lord:

    I don’t pretend to know exactly when all the “blanks” will be filled in for mankind regarding our knowledge of the Lord and his Church upon the earth, but just as the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord “as the waters cover the sea” during the Millennium (Isa. 11:9), I have no doubt (and latter day revelation confirms) that teaching continues in the next life, and those who were valiant in this life and humbly desired knowledge of the Lord in spirit and in truth will receive it in fulness-if not here, then there. It matters not to me whether it is before or after they receive their eternal inheritance, and we do not go around teaching either way. We know the importance of receiving truth here, and we also know that only God can judge hearts and opportunity, etc. God’s timing is all that counts, not our limited speculation and limited understanding of the fulness of the scriptures–such as in what year the Second Coming occurs!” (Amanda)

    All that aside, Amanda, it still doesn’t negate the fact that you believe (incorrectly) that we’ll all eventually make it to the same place, just some of us come to the realization of what we need to know after death, rather than before. As you say, this is “confirmed” through latter-day revelation (which is what you believe, though what you believe is not of God); it definitely is not confirmed by the Bible, which doesn’t teach this at all.

  78. Amanda said

    “Only problem with that is, is that different people/religious groups have much different takes on who Jesus is, what you need to do for salvation, etc… So it’s not as easy as saying “we’ve already made it”, b/c many people who think they’re OK eternally, in fact, are as far away from it as they could possibly be, unfortunately. This includes the LDS church.” (Brad)

    Brad, are you suddenly making a statement that people “need to DO” something” for salvation? If so, this is a John Kerry -type flip! Unthinkable according to all you have said before. According to your original philosophy, if I understand it correctly, all we need to do is confess Jesus and believe the Bible–oh, and interpret it exactly like you do. Did I read you correctly?

    “you believe (incorrectly) that we’ll all eventually make it to the same place,” (Brad)

    How could you even pretend to think this when you have been exposed to the degrees of glory? (Also referenced in the Bible)

    While most Christians, I believe, see our final destination as either heaven or hell, latter day revelation puts forth the degrees of glory. How is this ” we’ll all be in the same place, Brad?” I was speaking only of the valiant ones who will live in the celestial kingdom with God the Father and Jesus Christ. They are the only ones who will have this privilege. The others will receive the degree of glory they were willing to receive–and many of them will be taught after death in order to receive even that.

    I guess there are 50 other ways to get it wrong–if you want to try for some more, Brad, but I think I’ll take my ball and go home.

  79. Brad said

    “Brad, are you suddenly making a statement that people “need to DO” something” for salvation? If so, this is a John Kerry -type flip! Unthinkable according to all you have said before. According to your original philosophy, if I understand it correctly, all we need to do is confess Jesus and believe the Bible–oh, and interpret it exactly like you do. Did I read you correctly?” (Amanda)

    No, you did not read me correctly, as usual. There’s no “flip” made, trust me. For salvation, according to the Bible, we must place our faith in Jesus Christ and accept His free gift of grace, and believe He died for our sins and is our Lord. I’ve said nothing different. What I said was that “different people have different takes on what you need to do for salvation”; I didn’t say that we must “do” anything, as some new change of mind I’ve made. That won’t happen. And you or anybody doesn’t have to interpret the Bible exactly like I do – I never said that, either, no matter how you wish to try and sensationalize it. But they must, at least for the doctrinal core basics, interpret it CORRECTLY, and many, including the LDS church, do not.

    “How could you even pretend to think this when you have been exposed to the degrees of glory? (Also referenced in the Bible)

    While most Christians, I believe, see our final destination as either heaven or hell, latter day revelation puts forth the degrees of glory. How is this ” we’ll all be in the same place, Brad?” I was speaking only of the valiant ones who will live in the celestial kingdom with God the Father and Jesus Christ. They are the only ones who will have this privilege. The others will receive the degree of glory they were willing to receive–and many of them will be taught after death in order to receive even that.” (Amanda)

    Exactly my point – “latter-day revelation” teaches different than what is in the Bible, a very sure sign that “latter-day revelation” is not from God. Gee, isn’t this what I’ve been saying all along, Amanda??? The LDS take on 3 “levels” of Heaven is ridiculous, and, again, based on an incorrect interpretation of Scripture, holding to neither the correct textual or contextual interpretation of what Paul says. We don’t get a second chance after we die to learn anything, or to “improve our position.” If we didn’t accept it in life, through faith, we don’t get a chance to accept it magically in eternity, through some additional teachings we might encounter. It’s comforting to think that, which is why many believe it, b/c it eliminates the consequences of hell for many. But it is NOT Biblical, unfortunately.

    “I guess there are 50 other ways to get it wrong–if you want to try for some more, Brad, but I think I’ll take my ball and go home.” (Amanda)

    You’ve already covered about 46 of the ways to get things wrong already, Amanda 🙂

    But I’ll be here.

  80. F.L.A. said

    AS WILL WE ALL.[grins with lots of sharp teeth]

  81. John said

    Cute, F.L.A..[It’s an inside joke.The F.L.A. has no lips on it’s “face”, so it can’t help BUT grin.Ha, ha, ha. I didn’t say it was a real knee-slapper of a joke.]

  82. Amanda said

    On a parting note of wisdom that could lead to your eventual reconcilliation with those you continually offend as well as your friends who want to say that I must assume you love the God of the past, Brad. (Else why would you spend time defending the Bible as you read it?) I also commend your taking those words that you are willing to receive of the ancient prophets seriously. Amos 3:7, then, must still be true; and when you come to accept it, you will come to love the God of the present and future as well because you will KNOW that He is fulfilling every prophecy made in Old Testament times in every detail.

    I look forward to the day that your writing demeanor to other children of God reflects that you have personal knowledge of both them and your Creator, that you understand and reflect His attributes as well as the presumed “book knowledge” you have acquired, showing that you love Him enough emulate Him in your words and demeanor.(2 Cor. 3:17,18, 1 Cor. 13:12, James 3:2)
    James 3:2, 5, 6-12 (Do not take these words as lightly as you have others I have given you.):

    “For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body….Even so the tongue is a little member, and BOASTETH great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth.”

    While you say you are just disagreeing with my beliefs and that you “only” hate my church for whatever reason you have conjured up, you have denied in “determined ignorance” of the faith of which you speak that the Savior can do and has done His own work in the hearts of those who love Him–and I love Him. You also have written in a way that I consider most bitter and disrespectful of not only things I hold sacred of but my intellect as a seeker of truth. Thankfully, our God IS a God of grace, for you would never want to reap what you have sown in the world of judging that of which you have so little actual knowledge.

    In order to legitimately comment upon that which you say we believe, you must READ that which we believe–The Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible…else your embracing every negative thing you have ever read or heard regarding our leaders and our faith will continue to reek of blind prejudice to those who know better.

    My words have represented only my understanding of my faith and my experience, and that is why I am not an official spokesperson for my faith. I can best point you to the prophet and apostles of today who speak for the Lord’s kingdom with authority, and they are easily found in the recent conference talks on http://www.lds.org.

  83. Amanda said

    “…your friends who conjured up a gnashing of teeth in my mind, I want to say…”

    I don’t know how that part got deleted!

  84. Brad said

    “On a parting note of wisdom that could lead to your eventual reconcilliation with those you continually offend as well as your friends who want to say that I must assume you love the God of the past, Brad. (Else why would you spend time defending the Bible as you read it?) I also commend your taking those words that you are willing to receive of the ancient prophets seriously. Amos 3:7, then, must still be true; and when you come to accept it, you will come to love the God of the present and future as well because you will KNOW that He is fulfilling every prophecy made in Old Testament times in every detail.” (Amanda)

    I have no idea what you mean by most of the first part here. I love GOD – who is the same yesterday, today and forever. Amos 3:7 is still true, as it will always be true. The difference between you and I, Amanda, lies in our interpretation of what it means (and not only that verse, but much of the rest of the Bible). This verse has nothing to do with Mormon prophets. If the LDS church would stop thinking that everything written about prophets pertains to them, they’d be a lot better off. I KNOW that all the prophecies written in the Bible either have been or will be fulfilled. I don’t need YOUR understanding of Amos or anything from the LDS church to realize that. I just KNOW they aren’t fulfilled the way the LDS church thinks they are or will be, though.

    “I look forward to the day that your writing demeanor to other children of God reflects that you have personal knowledge of both them and your Creator, that you understand and reflect His attributes as well as the presumed “book knowledge” you have acquired, showing that you love Him enough emulate Him in your words and demeanor.(2 Cor. 3:17,18, 1 Cor. 13:12, James 3:2)
    James 3:2, 5, 6-12 (Do not take these words as lightly as you have others I have given you.):” (Amanda)

    Here we have the pot calling the kettle black. I won’t comment any further except to say that while I appreciate that you believe you are a saved child of God, I don’t believe you are, according to the Bible.

    “While you say you are just disagreeing with my beliefs and that you “only” hate my church for whatever reason you have conjured up, you have denied in “determined ignorance” of the faith of which you speak that the Savior can do and has done His own work in the hearts of those who love Him–and I love Him.” (Amanda)

    For the record (again, for the umpteenth time) – I do disagree with your beliefs in the strongest way possible, and I do dislike the LDS church for its deceptiveness and the fact that it is not of God. I do NOT “hate” you, or any other LDS or non-LDS person, for that matter. I have no reason to. If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t have continued on this blog. I don’t deny for a second that Jesus can do mighty works, especially in the “hearts of those who love Him”; however, I don’t believe you love and worship the Jesus of the Bible. The LDS church has, to its ultimate demise, defined “it’s” Jesus to be different than what the Bible speaks of. Accordingly, if you worship the LDS “Jesus” and follow its prescribed path toward salvation, you truly have no relationship with the Jesus of the Bible, and no salvation to speak of. I fully believe that and will stand by it, regardless of anything you may say about me, Amanda. I realize you disagree with that, which I believe is the great deception of your church.

    “You also have written in a way that I consider most bitter and disrespectful of not only things I hold sacred of but my intellect as a seeker of truth. Thankfully, our God IS a God of grace, for you would never want to reap what you have sown in the world of judging that of which you have so little actual knowledge.” (Amanda)

    Again, pot meets kettle. Amanda, I’m an imperfect, sinful human, same as you. Do I always do everything, or say everything, in the correct manner? Nope. But the ultimate point I’ve been making all along, I stick to. You view my strong disagreement as “bitter and disrespectful” – that is your right. However, the fact that you do so, does not change my disagreement. I have in fact commended you, even to other bloggers, for your ability to go back and forth with me, and form cogent arguments, though I disagree with them. I too, thank God for His grace; and I am thankful that I have been saved from eternal jugdment to hell. I don’t, however, believe you have, and I have enough knowledge to speak affirmatively about that.

    “In order to legitimately comment upon that which you say we believe, you must READ that which we believe–The Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible…else your embracing every negative thing you have ever read or heard regarding our leaders and our faith will continue to reek of blind prejudice to those who know better.” (Amanda)

    Says you. For reasons I’ve already gone into before, I completely disagree. And while I haven’t read the whole BOM, I have read some of it. There’s no blind prejudice, Amanda. Based solely on what you’ve told me about your own beliefs (which I can only interpret as Mormon beliefs, correct?), then I can definitively say those do NOT match up with the Bible, which I most assuredly have read.

    “My words have represented only my understanding of my faith and my experience, and that is why I am not an official spokesperson for my faith. I can best point you to the prophet and apostles of today who speak for the Lord’s kingdom with authority, and they are easily found in the recent conference talks on http://www.lds.org.” (Amanda)

    Assuming you know what you believe, as you say you do, then your understanding of Mormonism should be no different than theirs, when it comes to the core doctrines of your faith. I am not an “official” spokesperson for any religion, either – nobody is. But I know what my beliefs are based upon (the Bible alone), and I know what you say your beliefs are based upon (your understanding of the Bible, plus various other texts, as well as any “revelation” from the Spirit and/or your prophet), and unfortunately, they just don’t mesh with each other.

  85. Amanda said

    “Assuming you know what you believe, as you say you do, then your understanding of Mormonism should be no different than theirs, when it comes to the core doctrines of your faith.” Brad

    Just as Jesus was able to accomplish through his advanced faith and knowledge of the scriptures what his apostles could not-even things like casting out demons–there are many in my church who could, in a Christlike way, show the futility and errancy of your arguments much more effectively than I. It’s true that a man “forced against his will is of the same opinion still,” and that is why you not being able to read the Book of Mormon with faith in God instead of faith in the poison you have ingested about the Church will always be a stumbling block to you and cause you to continue to stress the differences instead of the similarities of our beliefs, never fully knowing the God we (and you) worship as fully as you could. Unfortunately, you will never know whether our beliefs mesh with the Bible or not, and you will never know under those circumstances why our beliefs do differ–why if we had the same beliefs exactly, there would have indeed been no need for the Restoration of certain truths and the Lord’s Church.

    “I am thankful that I have been saved from eternal jugdment to hell. I don’t, however, believe you have, and I have enough knowledge to speak affirmatively about that.” (Brad, of course)

    Not only is this a brilliant example of the arrogance that comes across in your writing and thinking, Brad, but it couldn’t be more subjective, more opinionated, less founded in knowledge, and more erroneous. You’ll be doing well to revisit on the first part of your sentence, and you will be able to tell how you’re doing by giving yourself a heart check periodically. Just ask, “Do I have as much love for my Mormon neighbors as I do for myself?” (You told Peter and I both in an earlier exchange that we could not even be considered your friends because of our beliefs.)

    Question: Do you really think it matters to us or to God if YOU think we are not saved from eternal judgment and hell?

  86. John said

    “You told Peter and I both in an earlier exchange that we could not even be considered you’re friends because of our beliefs.”-Amanda

    Is this true Brad?
    If so,why,that’s so……..Jehovah’s Witness-y of you[smile, one raised eyebrow].

  87. Brad said

    “Just as Jesus was able to accomplish through his advanced faith and knowledge of the scriptures what his apostles could not-even things like casting out demons–there are many in my church who could, in a Christlike way, show the futility and errancy of your arguments much more effectively than I.” (Amanda)

    Jesus accomplished everything He did b/c He is God, without sin and perfect. He didn’t just have “advanced faith and knowledge”, like a man, but perfect faith and knowledge, b/c He is also God. The same cannot be said of any man, including Mormon prophets. Any arguments used by these other people you know would be no different than yours, b/c all the LDS arguments are the same. Further, if they can do it so easily, have them on this blog, and we’ll discuss it with them. Unless, of course, for some reason, they can’t come on the blog like everyone has been unable to come on the air for a discussion. 🙂

    “It’s true that a man ‘forced against his will is of the same opinion still,’ and that is why you not being able to read the Book of Mormon with faith in God instead of faith in the poison you have ingested about the Church will always be a stumbling block to you and cause you to continue to stress the differences instead of the similarities of our beliefs, never fully knowing the God we (and you) worship as fully as you could.” (Amanda)

    Me not reading the BOM is only b/c I have no interest in reading what I know to not be true. I’ve given a good example of that earlier. If it looks like and smells like something, I don’t need to taste it to be sure. There’s no stumbling block for me. But that’s the Mormon argument, isn’t it? To not accept Mormonism is b/c of something in one’s life that causes them to not see it for what it is. It’s that same old Moroni message to wait for the feeling. There are no doctrinal core similarities between us at all, Amanda. And we don’t worship the same God. What you believe to be God doesn’t even exist, as there is only one God, the God of the Bible, which you don’t worship, based on the nature of what you believe about Him.

    “Unfortunately, you will never know whether our beliefs mesh with the Bible or not, and you will never know under those circumstances why our beliefs do differ–why if we had the same beliefs exactly, there would have indeed been no need for the Restoration of certain truths and the Lord’s Church.” (Amanda)

    I already know your beliefs don’t mesh with the Bible. I’ve already shown this numerous times in our past discussions. There is no need for anything the LDS church has to offer – in fact, there is a great need for people to stay away from it, as far away as possible.

    “Not only is this a brilliant example of the arrogance that comes across in your writing and thinking, Brad, but it couldn’t be more subjective, more opinionated, less founded in knowledge, and more erroneous. You’ll be doing well to revisit on the first part of your sentence, and you will be able to tell how you’re doing by giving yourself a heart check periodically.” (Amanda)

    Says you, Amanda. I know otherwise. It is based on Scripture, based on my adequate knowledge of Mormonism, and my discussions with you about your beliefs. I am confident of my salvation.

    “Just ask, ‘Do I have as much love for my Mormon neighbors as I do for myself?’ (You told Peter and I both in an earlier exchange that we could not even be considered your friends because of our beliefs.)” (Amanda)

    I admit, I had to search our past blogs to try and find what you were referencing here, b/c I didn’t recall that. Here’s the only thing I found that I think could be what you’re referencing, which I said I believe on July 18 in one of the past TTL discussion topics:

    “It is possible to have ‘love’ for others, yet disagree with them. I love many people whom I disagree with vehemently (you being one of them), as I am called by God to love them as He loves them. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with them, or be their best friend. You’re missing the difference, here.” (Brad)

    I stand by that completely, and it is no different than anything else I’ve said regarding the subject. At no time did I say you (or Peter) COULDN’T be considered my friends. I just said that it is POSSIBLE for me to love you as I should, WITHOUT agreeing with you or being your BEST friend. I also pointed out that you’re missing the difference, something that is evidently still occurring today. In fact, you didn’t take issue or respond to this comment when I made it, so not sure why it’s suddenly an issue to you now?

    If this isn’t the statement you were referring to above, please give me the quote and date so I can look at it myself. I’d love to meet you and discuss things with you, Amanda, and in fact that opportunity was made available to us by Stu. It’s not me who didn’t agree to do it, remember.

    “Question: Do you really think it matters to us or to God if YOU think we are not saved from eternal judgment and hell?” (Amanda)

    I think it always matters to God when people aren’t saved. I believe He has called Christians to tell others, to warn them, and to offer them salvation through the gospel. At the end of the day, it’s not MY judgment that you have to worry about, it’s His. In fact, I have no “judgment”, per se, but I am able to “know” whether someone has salvation, based on their beliefs, and whether those beliefs coincide with the Bible or not.

  88. Amanda said

    Here was the classical exchange:

    Peter to Brad: “And in spite of your assertion that I am not your brother, physically or spiritually, I hope that you will someday recognize all of God’s children as your brothers and sisters, as I consider you to be mine.”

    Brad: “You can consider me anything you wish, according to what you believe. However, according to what I know to be true, and based on the Bible, you are neither my physical or spiritual brother. I pray that you were.”

    Okay, the word “friend” wasn’t mentioned, but you fail to exude the “warm fuzzies” that would attract any idea of friendship–not to mention a lack of scriptural knowledge that we are all spirit children, inside these physical bodies, who are loved by our Father in Heaven. It is only pointed out now for refelctive purposes of principles that are important to our Savior. (“It’s nice to be important; it’s more important to be nice.”) You can also substitute “right” for “important” in that sentence.

    Going over our exchanges in looking for the above quotes, made me feel quite foolish at even wasting my time in such a futile endeavor. The biblical examples (of Jesus and Paul alone) of when to be silent and take precious knowledge and testimony elsewhere should be something I follow better in my life.

    “I think it always matters to God when people aren’t saved.” (Brad)

    Yes, but as I’ve reminded you before, you are not God. You are one fallible man. You have been called of God to share the good news of Christ and “warn” people–those who haven’t received the news and warning. There is no way upon God’s green earth that He has called you to read the hearts and personal knowledge of those happy in their own religions. He has certainly not called you to bear false witness against your Mormon neighbors which you have done from the getgo! Arguing with people and telling them they haven’t received Christ if they say they have is not part of His plan nor His example (whether they have or not isn’t even the issue here–you cannot judge that), and how is it working for you with people who are seasoned members of the Church? You have seen and pointed out no evil fruits coming from this living vine. Your worst complaint is that we are too busy or complicate the gospel or believe things you don’t think are biblical from your interpretations. Even the people I know who have taken the discussions and not joined the Church are better people for having done so. They take God and their own religions, whatever they may be, more seriously.

    May I share with you an analogy that applies, at least to me, here? Suppose I am taking a trip of breathtaking splendor through the Grand Canyon, but there is a fly in the car. Instead of focusing on the beauty of the trip and the splendorous sights around me, I am focused on the annoying fly. Halfway through the journey, I realize that if I don’t let go of the fly, I will miss my purpose–to participate in the joy of my Creator’s purpose for me.

    So…I will cease trying to eliminate the “fly,” or dissident voices against the Church, around me. I have and will continue to allow them their turn to speak, for to deny them would not be Christ-like, and I am called to have charity, the pure love of Christ within me, only obtainable through the Spirit of the Lord. Charity loves all and accepts them as they are. I just don’t have to argue anymore. I can ignore their input. And so my inner peace is maintained, and my pride–which I should never have cultivated to begin with–is stripped away to help me emulate better my Savior. Inner peace can only be established and maintained when I see contention as He does.

    God accepts you the way you are, Brad, allows your attitudes and choices to be just as you want them, but He doesn’t pay any attention to the lies you may believe and speak. He recognizes them, as I do, for what they are, and goes on with His own work. I desire to be like Him in every way. I cannot bind your tongue or argue “tit for tat”, and to do so would only be a waste of precious time. Instead, I should be preparing to meet God and live in a state of peace and joy because we enter His rest here–we don’t have to wait until eternity–and I should not allow someone like you to interrupt my rejoicing.

    You and I both, Brad, when we feel our pride getting the better of us, should ask God for that mighty change of heart again wherein we no longer want to “fix” other people. It should go without saying that such a change of heart takes away any desire to do evil (separate ourselves from the Spirit of God) by slandering others or ignoring portions of the scriptures. About the latter, I can only say that the lens we look through is all important. I feel my lens is of God, and I grant you the privilege to feel the same. It is evil to take the privilege of judgment unto ourselves by making ourselves the judge, jury and executioner of justice toward other people. This makes our walk with others adversarial instead of peaceful. Accepting and understanding is an important part of our Christian calling if we plan to succeed in the teaching part. And if teaching is our goal, real teaching, we must accept knowledge from the “horse’s mouth” to be able to teach without the danger of judging falsely and blowing a foul wind which pushes people away. (Something both of us could work on.)

    Moroni in the BOM teaches about one way you may know those who have a “sufficient hope” and have entered into the “rest” of the Lord:
    “And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men. (Moroni 7:4)

    In other words, he is saying: “I can recognize those of you who have been born again in Christ, who have obtained sufficient hope for yourselves and others, because you KNOW His atonement is great enough to redeem all as soon as they are ready.” (Some never are, of course.)Have you asked yourself why Jesus taught in parables? Moroni is also saying, “I recognize you because you walk peaceably with others, loving them, accepting them as they are, and not judging them.” (We must judge righteous judgment of principles and actions from firsthand knowledge, but not people.)

    These principles of Christ are a basic part of my religion and describe the Mormon people although we are at different levels of living this prinicple effectively. (We all have this knowledge and are striving to live it.) As for myself, I must learn from our experience to be a “peacemaker” with all the “Brads” in the world because only then may I truly be called “a child of God.” (Matt. 5:9)

    Thank you for giving me another opportunity to learn these principles, Brad. I plan to start living them in the future!

  89. Amanda said

    PS We are told in the Bible that one of the purposes of Christ’s becoming mortal was to learn how to “succor” or comfort his children.

    Heb. 2:18 “For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.”

    Yes, He was God from the beginning and He was perfect and without sin, and yet He learned and grew (Luke 2:52) through the mortal experience from childhood on–at least until the age of accountability. He was placed in a faithful Jewish home which would insure his being taught the word of God from the beginning. He also had access to the mind, will and Spirit of His Father (having the Godhead within Him, Col 2:9), which made His knowledge perfect, but some things, He had to experience for Himself. Thus, “He took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.” (Heb. 2:16)

    Faith is an eternal principle of power in the universe as is addressed in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s “Lectures on Faith” regarding God Himself. It is part of His nature and attributes too, and He created all things by faith, but it’s fruitless to discuss that for our purposes here. (You’re right: that isn’t in the Bible, Brad. Again, God has spoken once more, and so you can’t expect a good Mormon to ignore what He has said.)

  90. Brad said

    “Here was the classical exchange:

    Peter to Brad: “And in spite of your assertion that I am not your brother, physically or spiritually, I hope that you will someday recognize all of God’s children as your brothers and sisters, as I consider you to be mine.”

    Brad: “You can consider me anything you wish, according to what you believe. However, according to what I know to be true, and based on the Bible, you are neither my physical or spiritual brother. I pray that you were.”

    Okay, the word “friend” wasn’t mentioned, but you fail to exude the “warm fuzzies” that would attract any idea of friendship–not to mention a lack of scriptural knowledge that we are all spirit children, inside these physical bodies, who are loved by our Father in Heaven. It is only pointed out now for refelctive purposes of principles that are important to our Savior. (”It’s nice to be important; it’s more important to be nice.”) You can also substitute “right” for “important” in that sentence.” (Amanda)

    Well, he’s definitely not my physical brother, so no problem there. And I stick to what I said – based upon what he (and you, for that matter) believes, you are NOT my spiritual brothers and sisters, b/c we don’t have the common bond of Christ – YOU WORSHIP A DIFFERENT ONE!! In fact, you managed to take a quote from me, and say it meant something that it didn’t even say (that we couldn’t be friends). Although, since the Mormon church is fairly good at doing this with the Bible, it doesn’t really surprise me that much. And the idea of “spirit children” is a decidedly Mormon idea, not a Christian one. We are not all “related” through Christ, b/c we haven’t all accepted Him. And we weren’t all “pre-existent” at some point, either. That’s not a lack of Scriptural knowledge, b/c it’s not in Scripture. That’s not buying in to the LDS line of thinking.

    “Going over our exchanges in looking for the above quotes, made me feel quite foolish at even wasting my time in such a futile endeavor. The biblical examples (of Jesus and Paul alone) of when to be silent and take precious knowledge and testimony elsewhere should be something I follow better in my life.” (Amanda)

    Yet you keep doing it…

    “Yes, but as I’ve reminded you before, you are not God. You are one fallible man.” (Amanda)

    I agree, and in fact said so a couple posts back. Thanks for re-emphasizing, though.

    “You have been called of God to share the good news of Christ and “warn” people–those who haven’t received the news and warning. There is no way upon God’s green earth that He has called you to read the hearts and personal knowledge of those happy in their own religions.” (Amanda)

    God doesn’t tell us not to talk to others who are otherwise “happy in their own religions.” That’s not a qualifying factor. People can be happy in their sin. I’m not reading anyone’s hearts – I’m listening to what I’ve been told from a Mormon about what she believes, comparing those statements to what the Bible says, and evaluating from there. Based on what you say vs. what the Bible says, it is abundantly clear that you worship a different God, and do not have Biblical salvation.

    “He has certainly not called you to bear false witness against your Mormon neighbors which you have done from the getgo!” (Amanda)

    I agree (about not being called to bear false witness) – and I haven’t done that. What I’ve said, about the LDS church, is completely true, and hasn’t been proven otherwise.

    “Arguing with people and telling them they haven’t received Christ if they say they have is not part of His plan nor His example (whether they have or not isn’t even the issue here–you cannot judge that), and how is it working for you with people who are seasoned members of the Church?” (Amanda)

    Thank you, pot.

    “You have seen and pointed out no evil fruits coming from this living vine. Your worst complaint is that we are too busy or complicate the gospel or believe things you don’t think are biblical from your interpretations.” (Amanda)

    Yes, my worst complaint is that you twist the gospel and don’t believe things which are in the Bible, b/c you interpret the Bible incorrectly. That’s a pretty large set of things to be wrong about.

    “May I share with you an analogy that applies, at least to me, here? Suppose I am taking a trip of breathtaking splendor through the Grand Canyon, but there is a fly in the car. Instead of focusing on the beauty of the trip and the splendorous sights around me, I am focused on the annoying fly. Halfway through the journey, I realize that if I don’t let go of the fly, I will miss my purpose–to participate in the joy of my Creator’s purpose for me.” (Amanda)

    Using your same example, suppose the Bible says the fly will kill you, if you don’t take it seriously. But someone else comes along and says he was told that the fly is harmless, and that you should focus on the Grand Canyon instead. Would you continue to not worry about the fly? B/c that’s what you’re doing currently.

    “So…I will cease trying to eliminate the “fly,” or dissident voices against the Church, around me. I have and will continue to allow them their turn to speak, for to deny them would not be Christ-like, and I am called to have charity, the pure love of Christ within me, only obtainable through the Spirit of the Lord. Charity loves all and accepts them as they are. I just don’t have to argue anymore. I can ignore their input. And so my inner peace is maintained, and my pride–which I should never have cultivated to begin with–is stripped away to help me emulate better my Savior. Inner peace can only be established and maintained when I see contention as He does.” (Amanda)

    Gee, how many times have you written this holier-than-thou excerpt in so many words, then come back to your normal posting ways, forgetting everything you’ve written before? This is at least the 3rd time. Please, Amanda, enough with the sanctimony.

    “God accepts you the way you are, Brad, allows your attitudes and choices to be just as you want them, but He doesn’t pay any attention to the lies you may believe and speak.” (Amanda)

    There’s no lies, Amanda, it’s all true. You just refuse to accept it, as you’ve been blinded by your own church’s deception.

    “He recognizes them, as I do, for what they are, and goes on with His own work. I desire to be like Him in every way. I cannot bind your tongue or argue “tit for tat”, and to do so would only be a waste of precious time.” (Amanda)

    Yet, you continue…

    “You and I both, Brad, when we feel our pride getting the better of us, should ask God for that mighty change of heart again wherein we no longer want to “fix” other people. It should go without saying that such a change of heart takes away any desire to do evil (separate ourselves from the Spirit of God) by slandering others or ignoring portions of the scriptures.” (Amanda)

    There’s been no ignoring of the Bible from my end, Amanda; only misinterpretation of it from your end.

    “About the latter, I can only say that the lens we look through is all important. I feel my lens is of God, and I grant you the privilege to feel the same.” (Amanda)

    However, since our lenses are very different, if we both believe they are of God, we CANNOT both be right, Amanda. It’s impossible. And you need to realize that based on the Bible, the LDS church is wrong about it’s beliefs. Dead wrong. Mis-interpreted Scripture, extra books, continuing revelation, temple ceremonies – it’s all a deception, Amanda, and you’ve fallen for all of it.

    “It is evil to take the privilege of judgment unto ourselves by making ourselves the judge, jury and executioner of justice toward other people.” (Amanda)

    Agreed – but I’m not saying I have the final authority, only God does. All I’m saying is that I can recognize that you’re wrong in your beliefs, and I have tried repeatedly to warn you of those, so you can make a change and be on the right path.

    “Moroni in the BOM teaches about one way you may know those who have a “sufficient hope” and have entered into the “rest” of the Lord:
    “And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men. (Moroni 7:4)” (Amanda)

    I could honestly care less about what a figment of Smith’s imagination supposedly has to say. Honestly.

    Bottom line – believing the Mormon lies will result in an eternity of separation from God in hell, Amanda, which neither God nor I wish you to experience. This is why I have continued to tell this to you. Look PAST your church for a second. Look to the Bible – not through the lens you’re accustomed to, but just read the Bible itself. Without knowing what you already know – would you really arrive at your Mormon beliefs through the Bible alone? If that answer is “Yes”, you’ve fooled yourself, b/c without Mormon background and Mormon teachings, no student of the Bible would arrive at Mormon conclusions, simply from reading the Bible. If that answer is “No”, then ask yourself this: “If you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, then if Mormon teachings were necessary, why aren’t they included in the Bible?

  91. Amanda said

    Welcome to America, land of the free! “He said, she said” is once again as boring as it is frustrating, and I plan to learn from my past mistakes in beating this dead horse. Continue on in that which brings you joy, Brad; just ask the God of my Bible and yours if it gives Him any joy–then let Him speak to your heart as well as your mind. My experience has been that it is only the prayer of faith, not the prayer of “prove it to me” that brings His response.

    Always,

    Amanda

  92. Brad said

    Amanda,

    Depends on what your faith is in, however. And faith misplaced is no better than no faith at all, when it comes to salvation. It gives God no joy to see people being misled in religion; however, it is incumbent on said people to realize their mistakes and follow the one true God, for enough light has been given to them to realize who God is. I pray you will one day realize this about the LDS religion.

    Sincerely,

    Brad

  93. Amanda said

    “Gee, how many times have you written this holier-than-thou excerpt in so many words, then come back to your normal posting ways, forgetting everything you’ve written before? ”

    I do owe you an apology, Brad. That quote which inspired your comment came almost directly from a book which I am reading to HELP me reach the goal espoused. It was the writer’s words, not mine. I didn’t mean to imply I was there already. The book is “Deliver Me From Bondage” and it is used by the Church welfare program and is based upon the Book of Mormon.

    I do plan to learn from my mistakes with the help of God and His Word.

    Amanda

  94. Brad said

    Amanda,

    I believe all the offers still stand. To come on TTL and discuss, to meet with me personally and discuss, to have those who can “explain it better” to me come on here and discuss.

    One of these days, it would be nice to see what you say you would like to have happen, actually happen.

  95. Amanda said

    No, because that wish on my part was confrontational too, just as yours is, and not a righteous wish, really. Confrontation is a waste of time when one seeks a more worthy result from an exchange–like genuine enlightenment and objective learning.

    You like to say that I have not proven “Mormonism” to be true, but you have not proven it to be false either and cannot (except to your own restricted, one-sided view of satisfaction). Why? God, who changes people and lives, one heart at a time is a worthy adversary on this issue, and He will continue to put testimonies in the hearts of those willing to read and humbly pray about The Book of Mormon. When one reads it and attends church and hears the teachings, there is nothing of evil, only good within.

  96. Brad said

    “You like to say that I have not proven “Mormonism” to be true, but you have not proven it to be false either and cannot (except to your own restricted, one-sided view of satisfaction). Why? God, who changes people and lives, one heart at a time is a worthy adversary on this issue, and He will continue to put testimonies in the hearts of those willing to read and humbly pray about The Book of Mormon. When one reads it and attends church and hears the teachings, there is nothing of evil, only good within.” (Amanda)

    Please. The very same argument you give for me NOT being able to prove it is false, is the very same argument I can make to say that you can NOT prove it to be true (except “to your own restricted, one-sided view of satisfaction”). Mormonism is most assuredly not true – it has been shown from numerous sources that it isn’t supported factually, textually, contextually, historically or archaeologically (personally, I would add logically, though that is more subjective). It is not God who is putting testimonies in the hearts of Mormons, it is Satan who is leading them to believe that. Look at your arguments, Amanda; they’re always based upon looking at the BOM or the wondrous LDS church. You’re not focused on the Bible. Mormonism at it’s finest.

    It’s a sham, folks, don’t let anyone fool or deceive you into thinking it’s not. It leads straight to hell.

    And for the record, I’m not sure what crystal ball you’re using to be able to say that my wish is confrontational. I think it could most assuredly be educational, for many different people.

  97. Moderator said

    We can arrange an in-studio discussion, which means we could do a Truth Talk Live episode with both Brad and Amanda in the studio together. Amanda indicated at one point that she felt like it would not be a fair and balanced discussion and that the TTL listeners may lash out at her. We would take every precautionary measure to prevent that from happening. Amanda – If you agreed to do this perhaps you could inform all your Mormon friends of the appearance. We could have discussion and also take calls. This would absolutely have to be contained to a diplomatic and civil discussion. Raising of the voice, condescending tones or comments and personal attacks will not be allowed. It would be great to have you both come in, shake hands, have a pleasant debate and then shake hands and leave.

  98. Anonymous said

    Let us know so we can tune out that day.

  99. Amanda said

    Moderator,

    I do appreciate your being willing to have such an event, but my goal is not to “prove” anything on the air since the Spirit of God is not likely to attend a debate loaded for contention, in its very purpose and choice of guests where there is malintent and misrepresentation. I truly do think it would be a waste of time. Has Brad said ANYTHING in our blog exchanges that WASN’T condescending? The indicator of future behavior is past behavior. If you want education to occur on a station which has taken a stand against the Mormons–even in its commercials, there has to be some sincerity shown by allowing the Mormons to speak unopposed before tackling something like this. Even then, I doubt any responsible Church members with the authority and knowedge to represent the Church would ever be interested in a pro and con scenario set up to be, with full intent anyway, a “win-lose” situation.

    And Brad,

    Repeating an error a thousand times–“Mormonism is most assuredly not true – it has been shown…” does not make it true. Anyone who has been really close to the Church or read actual Church history and current studies of archaelogical and textual–handwriting and style, Jewish poetic analysis, etc. research, who knows the history of the mainstream Christian tradition, and has read The Book of Mormon and the Bible knows better. My perspective does not center ONLY around the Bible (although it is supported by and verifies the Bible at the same time) because God has spoken once more in this dispensation of the Gospel. The “light and truth” quota resulting from both books of scripture together, used in God’s hand and our hands, gives the individual a fuller perspective of God’s truth which He Himself will attest to Divine witness, forming an unshakeable testimony akin to a finely woven cloth that cannot unravel.

    Anyone–even otherwise good, sold Christians–can refuse to make an “informed” judgement between God’s and Satan’s influence in the work as a result of selective knowledge and ingested DISinformation about “Mormonism.” On top of that, they can easily refuse to exercise the humble prayer of faith to the Author of ALL truth during sincere Bible and Book of Mormon reading presented by people authorized to teach about the Restoration. Add to that a determination NOT to understand what is presented or look at it objectively from the start, and we have a surefire, 100% effective, course of action that leads to continual misunderstanding and the not uncommon bearing of false witness by one Christian church or individual against another.

    Can’t we do better than this?

  100. Amanda said

    I agree with anonymous. Repeating an error 1,000 times does not make it true, and our exchange has put a bad taste in people’s mouths. I just wish people would go to the proper source to learn about the Church–and that would be the Church itself, its missionaries, or it’s website.

    Thanks, anyway.

  101. Brad said

    Amanda,

    As to condescension – once again, the pot is informing the kettle. You are the only one who ever brings it up.

    As to the other comments, again I say ridiculous. Mormons always like to talk about how we “don’t look objectively” at the “evidence”, or that we’ve been “misinformed”, or that we “bear a false witness” against them. It’s the age-old victim viewpoint – the Mormons are all victims of a poor perception, due to misinformation. It’s all in how WE are viewing them that makes us think they’re wrong, not that they’re actually wrong. The arguments haven’t changed since Smith’s time, Amanda, and I don’t see your church changing them now. They’re self-supporting arguments, but you know what? They’re really no different than the deception and circular logic used to try and draw people in. “Pray that it’s right, and if you believe it is and sincerely desire to know the truth, you’ll find it is the truth. If you don’t find it, you don’t really want to know, or you don’t truly believe it.” Same old same old.

    The only thing that “authorizes” a Christian to speak about that which they know is their relationship with God and their knowledge of the Bible. A clergy, regardless of position, has no more or less “authority” to speak about the Bible than anyone else. If your church has told you that you, as a lay person, don’t have the “authority”, right there warning sirens should be going off in your head. What about 1 Peter 3:15 “always be ready to give a defense”? You’re being given a prime opportunity, which you’re rejecting.

    There’s been no mis-information on here about anything to do with Mormonism, Amanda. I’ve went over your points with you a hundred times, and your “different views” boil down to misinterpretations of Scripture, use of books that are not inspired of God, but by men, and listening to the ever-changing opinions of your leaders and your church. A foundation built on sand, to be honest. And Amanda, the wave is getting ready to crash into the shore.

  102. The Wiccan Witch of the South said

    No, at least not here.Do you remember what I told you in reply #46?True as it ever was.The majority of the people here think that you belong to a CULT! And that I’m a Satanist.And remember why you told me in reply #47 that you love to write to people like Brad?I tried that once on the Interview with a Wiccan site, but gave up on Brad because I grew bored with repeating myself in differint ways, so it turned into an amusment instead.Sometimes you just have to accept people as they are.Use the “Brad-minded” people of the site to hone you’re skills for future encounters in the world.And should you accept the Moderators offer and go as a “sheep amongst the wolves”,then just think about how much better[tougher?] of an individual you will be when it’s over.
    Good luck either way.[smile]

  103. Donna said

    Our daughter was recruited by a Mormon in college and we almost lost her forever. It took almost two years before she finally realized what they were teaching was a false religion. No, Amanda, I am sorry, but Mormonism is not Christian. It is like all the other religions out there. Religion is manmade where the members strive to reach up to God based on their own merits. Christianity is the Good News that God reached down to establish a person relationship with me. Christianity is not a list of rules like don’t drink coffee. Islam has the Koran, Mormonism has the Book of Mormom and Pearl of Great Price, Scientology has its Reading Rooms, and on and on. Amanda, have your ever wondered why you are told not to read the “anti-Mormon” books -perhaps your leaders are afraid of what you might find. I pray that God will open your eyes to the truth – that Joseph Smith was just one of many, many other men throughout history that believed they could be a god. The true church is not a denomination, but rather is the people who have asked Jesus to be their personal Saviour and accept that He died for all their sins once and for all period – not just as “far as it is up to me.” Jesus loves you just as you are and He will perfect you if you will let Him alone be the Lord of your life. The Church of Latter Day Saints is an organization with rules that change with culture. Rather, I am the Church and you can be too.

  104. Ted said

    Amanda – you said “my goal is not to “prove” anything on the air”

    Well, isn’t that what you’re trying to do here online?

    What’s the difference whether you try to prove it on the air or online?

    You truly are a study in contradictions, Amanda. I think the on-air debate would be very interesting.

  105. Anonymous said

    Donna,

    So glad that your daughter was saved from the clutches of Mormonism. You stated things very well – I fear that Mormons don’t listen, though, as they have been so indoctrinated against the “antis” that they can’t see past the lies of their own church.

    Ted,

    True. Very true. Well said.

  106. Brad said

    Sorry, #105 was mine. Used a home computer, instead of one at work.

  107. Amanda said

    Ted, Brad, and Donna,

    I take my cues about who to talk with and when from my Savior’s example, and I take my truth from scriptures and the Holy Ghost. I too was a daughter whose parents thought she was lost at age 25 until they saw my six children growing in ways, strength and purity that few other Christian religions can boast of their teens and young people. They saw them marry outstanding young Mormons who brought gifts, talents and more goodness to the family. They also saw my love and respect for them, my dedication to family growing as well as my diligence in being the Christian daughter they always hoped I would become. No longer were they ashamed to introduce me as their “Mormon” daughter; they were proud to do so.

    The ones with authority to teach the gospel I was referring to, Bradster, were the missionaries, and anyone would do well to listen to their message and feel the spirit they bring into a home.

    I have always read anti-Mormon literature when I could stomach it (and no one in the Church tells me to do anything; truth is taught and I have my agency). I was warned it would be out there, and how true that warning was! Before I joined the Church, reading it was one of the things that pushed me toward the good spirit of the Church. That literature had the same bad spirit about it that your comments today do, and I knew from my first exposure that its origin was of the opposition to all things good.

    My own grown children are ashamed of the time I have wasted on this website with such people who are so happy to be ignorant of and malicious toward the Church. (I am ashamed too.) If anything you said was true, the Church would never be able to gain or hold its members. I’m just sorry Donna’s daughter couldn’t stand the pressure her parents exerted. I know how difficult that can be from firsthand experience.

    “The true church is not a denomination.” That was true until Jesus Christ restored the same church he organized during his ministry upon the earth. Each Christian church has truth, but if you read Acts, you will read about the church I have been defending –with all the authority and power that it had back then. I don’t think of it as a denomination; it is the true and living church of the true and living God. I have all the proof I could ever need and feel no need to do God’s job for Him by going on the wrong show with the wrong people. God’s power brings 230,000 plus people into the Church every year–with or without your blessing.

    You may “rain” on all the temporal parades you desire, but your words are like water off a duck’s back when compared with the sure testimony that God grants to those who humbly seek Him.

    The Wiccan’s is the only “Christ-like” voice I’ve read on this website, and even though I don’t agree with his advice about going on air, I wish him the freedom to enjoy and practice his beliefs as he feels so led to do. (Nor do I assume he is a half-wit as you folks self-righteously imply Mormons are with each breath you exhale.) I truly have “honed” my skills on Brad and others like him, and it makes me better able to help those who are seeking truth. What a joy it is to see someone who uses their brains to seek knowledge objectively and exercise faith as they do so. Even if they do not join the church, they accept the honesty and goodness of the Church and would never stoop to writing the lies I’ve read here today.

    This brand of Southern Hospitality shames the Bible belt and makes us look provincial and bitter!

  108. Amanda said

    “It’s the age-old victim viewpoint” (Brad)

    If Mormons had a victim mentality, we would today, like some minorities, be demanding “reparations” from the states of Missouri and Illinois for the unconstitutional treatment we received there long ago. Mormons are not only survivors but they are actively engaged in living their own religion instead of attacking other Christians and non-Christians for theirs.

    Brad, I think you have forgotten that our entire correspondence started because I called on you to be more responsible about spewing lies and falsehoods and misleadings about the Church. It is not I who am telling you that you are not denominationally Christian, not saved, worship a different God according to the Bible, and quickly throwing in every false assumption you can from twisting the meaning of what even I have said to you–whatever fits your agenda will do. In short, it is not I attacking your religion even though I believe you have mixed some of the philosophies of man with your interpretation of scripture. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt even about being a Christian until you display such unChristian behavior as you have on this blog. You have spent little time preaching any gospel I have not already received. The only gospel I have witness of in your heart is the gospel against Mormonism–and you haven’t even begun to get that right except according to anti-Mormon literature.

    I’m not surprised that in your mind you could convince yourself to believe that in the “hundreds” of times (cough, cough) you have “gone over scripture” with me it was not you who was interpreting or, more often, ignoring the word of God that didn’t support your interpretation. It is consistent with the rest of your attributes exhibited here.

    “The only thing that “authorizes” a Christian to speak about that which they know is their relationship with God and their knowledge of the Bible.” (Brad)

    Amen! And this is exactly what I have done with you, Brad. The fact that you do not accept my personal witness, my interpretation of the Bible, and my certain testimony by the Holy Ghost is not my problem but evidence that religious beliefs are subjective, indeed personal, and the root source of our individual choices and actions in life. If Jesus said He came not to judge the world but to save the world, can you do any less? How do you save the world? By preaching His gospel as you know it! Jesus continued to say his listeners should give heed to a more final judge at the last day, and you would do well to do the same and leave it at that. Are “judge not that ye be not judged and “Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee” totally lost on you?

    How about “Judge not according to the appearance (of all you think you know to be true about the Church), but judge righteous judgment” and “Doth our law judge any man (or an entire church) before it hear him?” He doesn’t say “before it hear ABOUT him from the Pharisees of the day.”

    Again, Brad, if you spoke the truth in any fashion from knowledge of any credible source, and if your intent was Christian and one of love EVIDENCED by your objectivity, your ability to listen and reflect, and your resources, I would NOT be writing you as your personal Jimminy Cricket. My primary goal here has been to call you to accountability before God as a professed Christian for your words. I realize that you are as willing to stake your salvation on your words as I am to stake my salvation on where God has led me to know Him more intimately than I did in the Protestant religion in which I was raised. All I ask is that you respect my right to do so and speak only of that which you know. If the “circular reasoning” of how to receive an answer from God to which you refer didn’t bring Heavenly results for millions of people, believe me, it would be dropped in a heartbeat. It is a far better cry to ask God, expecting to receive an answer one way or the other, which is biblical, than to blindly follow the approach that says “don’t ask God; there is no chance that the LDS Church can be of God,” even though we have its prototype in the Bible and a God who is all powerful and has said “the Lord God shall do nothing save He revealeth his secret to his servants the prophets,”and who has foretold the restitution of all things and a great gathering to take place in the latter days.

    I actually look forward to meeting you in the eternities–not to gloat but to find out how the Lord turned your heart around on this issue and to praise His Holy Name!

  109. Brad said

    Donna/Ted,

    See what I mean about being “blinded?”

    “I take my cues about who to talk with and when from my Savior’s example, and I take my truth from scriptures and the Holy Ghost.” (Amanda)

    You say Scriptures, plural, meaning more than the Bible. Right there is a conceptual problem with the Mormon church.

    “I too was a daughter whose parents thought she was lost at age 25 until they saw my six children growing in ways, strength and purity that few other Christian religions can boast of their teens and young people. They saw them marry outstanding young Mormons who brought gifts, talents and more goodness to the family. They also saw my love and respect for them, my dedication to family growing as well as my diligence in being the Christian daughter they always hoped I would become. No longer were they ashamed to introduce me as their “Mormon” daughter; they were proud to do so.” (Amanda)

    Pat yourself on the back, Amanda, one more time. As has been shown before, it’s all about how good and nice and loving the Mormons are, for them. It’s why they can say things that “few other Christian religions can boast of.” At least in their own eyes. I know happy families who are proud of each other, and exude love and respect, who aren’t at all religious. What does that say about them? They accomplished what you described, without Christianity or the Mormon church. How do you explain that?

    “The ones with authority to teach the gospel I was referring to, Bradster, were the missionaries, and anyone would do well to listen to their message and feel the spirit they bring into a home.” (Amanda)

    Missionaries have no more authority to teach the gospel than you do, Amanda. Doesn’t Scripture call us ALL to be missionaries in our own way, to tell others? There’s no hierarchial position they’ve attained, that makes them “authorized” to do anything special. If your church thinks so, it’s b/c your church has set it up that way, based on their preference, but not on Scripture. And you call me condescending (“Bradster”)? Not that it bothers me, Amanda; I actually find it amusing. But I do find it sad that you’re the first to complain of condescension, which you so freely dish out yourself.

    “I have always read anti-Mormon literature when I could stomach it (and no one in the Church tells me to do anything; truth is taught and I have my agency). I was warned it would be out there, and how true that warning was! Before I joined the Church, reading it was one of the things that pushed me toward the good spirit of the Church. That literature had the same bad spirit about it that your comments today do, and I knew from my first exposure that its origin was of the opposition to all things good.” (Amanda)

    But only b/c it disagrees with everything taught by your church. You always complain that nobody ever gives Mormonism its fair shake – that we all buy into the hype and misinformation everywhere about your religion. But what about the other way around? Have you given the information in all the “anti” books a fair shake? Have YOU, OBJECTIVELY, looked at the arguments against Mormonism, and thought of them outside of the Mormon mindset? If so, I’d love to know how you’ve been able to overcome, in your mind, the overwhelming evidence against Mormonism from numerous sources.

    “My own grown children are ashamed of the time I have wasted on this website with such people who are so happy to be ignorant of and malicious toward the Church. (I am ashamed too.) If anything you said was true, the Church would never be able to gain or hold its members.” (Amanda)

    The same tired argument – “if what I say is true, Mormonism would fold.” But you forget one word you’re very fond of, Amanda – “agency.” It’s what gives people the free will to do what they wish, even if they are being misled by Satan. It’s what led Eve to eat the fruit. God Himself told Eve not to eat the fruit, but she did it anyway. Why? Agency (or “free will”, for those of you outside Mormonism). “But if what God said was true, Satan would never have been able to fool her.” Didn’t happen that way, though, did it? Your argument is wrong, and invalid on its face. As to coming on here (which both you and your kids, evidently, are ashamed of), why do you continue to do it, when you believe you shouldn’t? Agency.

    “I’m just sorry Donna’s daughter couldn’t stand the pressure her parents exerted. I know how difficult that can be from firsthand experience.” (Amanda)

    God bless Donna and her husband for watching over and caring for their daughter so much, that they were able to keep her from Mormonism! Thank God for the pressure they did exert, to help lead their daughter away from destruction and continue on in eternal life!

    “The true church is not a denomination.” That was true until Jesus Christ restored the same church he organized during his ministry upon the earth. Each Christian church has truth, but if you read Acts, you will read about the church I have been defending –with all the authority and power that it had back then. I don’t think of it as a denomination; it is the true and living church of the true and living God.” (Amanda)

    Scary, how you have bought into the Kool-Aid, Amanda. I have read Acts, which describes IN NO WAY anything at all about the Mormon church. The Acts church worshiped a different God than the Mormon church does (the Mormon church worshiping an incorrect, Smithian version). I’m truly sorry you have been so misled. I never said the Mormons weren’t smart – they’re just misled.

    “I have all the proof I could ever need and feel no need to do God’s job for Him by going on the wrong show with the wrong people. God’s power brings 230,000 plus people into the Church every year–with or without your blessing.” (Amanda)

    But Amanda, your proof doesn’t come from anything tangible, it’s from a feeling from a spirit that isn’t even of the same nature as the Holy Spirit of the Bible! You have baseless faith!

    “The Wiccan’s is the only “Christ-like” voice I’ve read on this website, and even though I don’t agree with his advice about going on air, I wish him the freedom to enjoy and practice his beliefs as he feels so led to do. (Nor do I assume he is a half-wit as you folks self-righteously imply Mormons are with each breath you exhale.)” (Amanda)

    I’m ignoring anything from John in the future. The very fact that you think he’s the one sensible person you’ve talked with, is proof enough for many on here to now form a solid conclusion about your beliefs and the rationale for them, Amanda.

    “I truly have “honed” my skills on Brad and others like him, and it makes me better able to help those who are seeking truth. What a joy it is to see someone who uses their brains to seek knowledge objectively and exercise faith as they do so. Even if they do not join the church, they accept the honesty and goodness of the Church and would never stoop to writing the lies I’ve read here today.” (Amanda)

    What lies, Amanda? What lies? Disprove anything said here, using the Bible alone. I challenge you to do so.

    “This brand of Southern Hospitality shames the Bible belt and makes us look provincial and bitter!” (Amanda)

    The Bible doesn’t speak to “southern hospitality”. It does, however, speak to making sure others know the truth, which is what I’m doing.

  110. Brad said

    “If Mormons had a victim mentality, we would today, like some minorities, be demanding “reparations” from the states of Missouri and Illinois for the unconstitutional treatment we received there long ago. Mormons are not only survivors but they are actively engaged in living their own religion instead of attacking other Christians and non-Christians for theirs.” (Amanda)

    Just b/c you don’t demand “reparations” (the very idea is ludicrous), doesn’t mean you don’t have the mentality. Look at all you say about the “antis”, how the church is always misrepresented, the bad name you get, blah, blah, blah… It’s always about how everyone is out to get the Mormons.

    “Brad, I think you have forgotten that our entire correspondence started because I called on you to be more responsible about spewing lies and falsehoods and misleadings about the Church.” (Amanda)

    There’s nothing to be more responsible about. I stand by everything I said, which is all true.

    “It is not I who am telling you that you are not denominationally Christian, not saved, worship a different God according to the Bible, and quickly throwing in every false assumption you can from twisting the meaning of what even I have said to you–whatever fits your agenda will do.” (Amanda)

    Good – b/c I know I am. You would have no basis to make those claims, b/c what I believe is founded solely in the Bible, not upon some man’s imagination backed up by smoke and mirrors like another religion I know.

    “In short, it is not I attacking your religion even though I believe you have mixed some of the philosophies of man with your interpretation of scripture.” (Amanda)

    You are welcome to attack whatever you wish, Amanda. I’m a big boy, and I don’t complain when I get attacked, like others do. I have completely backed up all the interpretations I have offered, using Scripture, while your arguments require that you step outside of Scripture to gain the Mormon interpretation. Different as night and day.

    “I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt even about being a Christian until you display such unChristian behavior as you have on this blog.” (Amanda)

    Pot, meet kettle (again). I have, and will continue to, disagree with what you right, not only about your own church but about Christianity, b/c you are incorrect in your beliefs. Whether you derive anything from it or not, my hope is that others will see it, and know to stay away from the deadly trap of Mormonism.

    “You have spent little time preaching any gospel I have not already received. The only gospel I have witness of in your heart is the gospel against Mormonism–and you haven’t even begun to get that right except according to anti-Mormon literature.” (Amanda)

    I never said this was the first time you’ve heard it. The gospel of Christianity IS inherently a gospel “against” Mormonism, b/c the 2 do not mesh together, as they are based on different things, different texts, and different gods. I wouldn’t expect them to mesh.

    “I’m not surprised that in your mind you could convince yourself to believe that in the “hundreds” of times (cough, cough) you have “gone over scripture” with me it was not you who was interpreting or, more often, ignoring the word of God that didn’t support your interpretation. It is consistent with the rest of your attributes exhibited here.” (Amanda)

    A lot of smoke. Hard evidence, please. I have backed up all our previous discussions concerning doctrine with evidence from the Bible alone. Interpretations are inherently personal, b/c it is people who make the interpretations. Not rocket science there. Whether they are correct or not, depends on how those interpretations fit in with the whole of Scripture. There’s not one interpretation I’ve given that doesn’t.

    “And this is exactly what I have done with you, Brad. The fact that you do not accept my personal witness, my interpretation of the Bible, and my certain testimony by the Holy Ghost is not my problem but evidence that religious beliefs are subjective, indeed personal, and the root source of our individual choices and actions in life.” (Amanda)

    Wrong. You use your personal witness (not in or of the Bible), your interpretation of the Bible (which I’ve shown to be incorrect), and your testimony of the Holy Ghost (which can’t be proven anyway). What I referenced is your continued excuse that you can’t come on air, b/c you’re not authorized to speak for the church. If you agree that you’re “authorized”, that excuse is now out the window, isn’t it? I’ve never said religious beliefs aren’t subjective or personal – I do believe they are. But just b/c you’ve made a subjective, personal choice, doesn’t automatically make it the correct one. People make subjective, personal choices every day to murder other people – doesn’t make them right.

    “If Jesus said He came not to judge the world but to save the world, can you do any less? How do you save the world? By preaching His gospel as you know it!” (Amanda)

    That’s what I’m doing – saying it as I know it.

    “Jesus continued to say his listeners should give heed to a more final judge at the last day, and you would do well to do the same and leave it at that. Are “judge not that ye be not judged and “Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee” totally lost on you?” (Amanda)

    I know those verses – do you know what they mean, in their proper context? Based upon the fact that you even used them to support your statement, I’ll assume “no”, so let me help you. This means that don’t judge others unless you are willing to be judged in the same manner as them. I am willing to be judged for my beliefs in Christ, as I know they are correct. As such, I am willing to be judged in that manner, same as everyone else, so I have no problem decrying false religion, b/c I know it is untrue and is leading others away from Christ. It’s not lost on me, it’s actually very real for me.

    “How about “Judge not according to the appearance (of all you think you know to be true about the Church), but judge righteous judgment” and “Doth our law judge any man (or an entire church) before it hear him?” He doesn’t say “before it hear ABOUT him from the Pharisees of the day.” (Amanda)

    Again, Amanda, you’re assuming that nobody who speaks out about the Mormon church being false is properly informed, that if they were properly informed, they wouldn’t speak out. Again, more circular reasoning that is used for self-assurance within your church. I “judge” according to what I know based on Scripture, and what I know about the Mormon church based on my studies about it, and I know that it is FALSE, totally and completely false.

    “Again, Brad, if you spoke the truth in any fashion from knowledge of any credible source, and if your intent was Christian and one of love EVIDENCED by your objectivity, your ability to listen and reflect, and your resources, I would NOT be writing you as your personal Jimminy Cricket.” (Amanda)

    Circular reasoning again, folks. It’s all the Mormons fall back on. See it here in action. And then notice the “if you truly loved, you’d be objective.” Nice touch – that’s a good one. I’ll have to write that one down 🙂

    “My primary goal here has been to call you to accountability before God as a professed Christian for your words.” (Amanda)

    So called – and I stand proudly behind all I’ve said, as true and accurate concerning both Christianity and Mormonism. No problem there, Amanda.

    “I realize that you are as willing to stake your salvation on your words as I am to stake my salvation on where God has led me to know Him more intimately than I did in the Protestant religion in which I was raised.” (Amanda)

    Finally, a true statement.

    “All I ask is that you respect my right to do so and speak only of that which you know.” (Amanda)

    I’ve never disrespected your right to do so – I’ve always said “it’s your choice”, and it is. No issues there. But I do speak of what I know. You are under the misconception that only Mormons can know about Mormonism. Many, many non-Mormons know about it as well, and what they know is accurate. No problems there, either.

    “If the “circular reasoning” of how to receive an answer from God to which you refer didn’t bring Heavenly results for millions of people, believe me, it would be dropped in a heartbeat.” (Amanda)

    Wait, now we’re using circular reasoning to back up circular reasoning? The argument is reaching the point of utter hilarity, Amanda. Stop while you’re only this far behind.

    “It is a far better cry to ask God, expecting to receive an answer one way or the other, which is biblical, than to blindly follow the approach that says “don’t ask God; there is no chance that the LDS Church can be of God,” even though we have its prototype in the Bible and a God who is all powerful and has said “the Lord God shall do nothing save He revealeth his secret to his servants the prophets,”and who has foretold the restitution of all things and a great gathering to take place in the latter days.” (Amanda)

    Please. What I’ve said is that you test all things through Scripture (meaning the Bible) to see if what is being said is true. If it holds to what the Bible teaches perfectly, then it is of God. If it doesn’t, then it’s not. Just so happens Mormonism doesn’t, so it’s not of God. All the cries to God to ask Him if that’s the case are irrelevant at that point, b/c we can ALREADY KNOW the answer through Scripture. And no, Amanda, Scripture doesn’t speak at all about the Mormon church, not in the verses you give above, nor anywhere else, for that matter.

    “I actually look forward to meeting you in the eternities–not to gloat but to find out how the Lord turned your heart around on this issue and to praise His Holy Name!” (Amanda)

    I wish we would meet in eternity, Amanda. But given our beliefs, if we each stay on the path we’re currently on, we will not. We’ll each go into eternity, but it will be to different destinations. And I think you know where I believe each of us is going, but just to be sure: my beliefs have already ensured that I will be in Heaven, and yours are currently leading you towards hell. It’s unfortunate, but true. You can view that as self-righteous, arrogant, whatever. I view it as having duly warned you of the error of your ways, Amanda. And I can go into eternity confident that I said what I could, and warned as much as possible, for you to have the opportunity to come to true salvation.

  111. Amanda said

    “Stop…” (Brad)

    This is the one pearl of wisdom I pulled from your responses this time, and “Bradster” is actually a term of endearment always used in a positive way these days, not one of condescension–although for me and in this situation, I’m sure it could seem to have had no other interpretation. (Sorry if it offended anyone. Sometimes my sense of humor wins out when it shouldn’t.)

    “I know happy families who are proud of each other, and exude love and respect, who aren’t at all religious. What does that say about them? They accomplished what you described, without Christianity or the Mormon church. How do you explain that?” (Brad)

    It says they are doing some important things right. Truth is composed of many good and true principles–no matter what religion or lack of it they stem from. ( The Bible doesn’t contain all known truth–not even all known truth about God; hence, the Book of Mormon.) One day, mankind will realize that all truth in the universe is part of the gospel.

    ” There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of the world, upon which all blessings are predicated–And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” (Doctrine and Covenants 130:20-21) Love begets love, respect begets respect, obedience to parents brings blessings, unselfishness begets unselfishness, etc., no matter one’s belief system.

    “You always complain that nobody ever gives Mormonism its fair shake -” (Brad)

    I have said no such thing–you and people like you are fortunately the exception. (What’s the point of repeating what is never heard?) When I see or hear slander and lies being told about my faith, it is my duty to God to bear my witness of the error, so lets limit comments to present company. Mission completed.

    “Have YOU, OBJECTIVELY, looked at the arguments against Mormonism…?” (Brad)

    Of course, Brad, as part of my search for truth. How could I have asked God for the gift of discernment if I closed my eyes to one side? That was part of my 9 months investigation. I visited other churches and read anything anyone sent me, including a visit by a Pentecostal couple who were quite anti-Mormon, letters from friends who had gotten bad material–even visited with my preacher. There was no one-sided investigation here. I valued my parents and their opinion and love too much. The thing you haven’t recognized is that when one is seeking truth at God’s hand, he or she can easily recognize a bad spirit. Even though I barely knew anything about the Church, I knew instantly from my limited experience and exposure that much of what was being said was untrue and smacked of yelllow journalism. Finally, once God answered me with the witness of the Holy Ghost, there remained only to read occasional “anti”-lit so I wouldn’t be surprised by all the pot shots and would be able to respond to MY OWN satisfaction.

    About the people in the Church being loving and nice…Again, I can only bear witness to my own experience and plug that into Jesus’ words…”by this shall men know ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” And “by their fruits ye shall know them.” It was one of the fruits.

    Brad said: “What I referenced is your continued excuse that you can’t come on air, b/c you’re not authorized to speak for the church. If you agree that you’re “authorized”, that excuse is now out the window, isn’t it?”

    Let’s look at the puropse of such an on-air meeting. Will it bring people to Christ? (No, most listeners are already converted to Christ. Mormons, most certainly, and one doesn’t have to be a Mormon to receive the Christ of the Bible.) Then what is my purpose? To educate people about the Church? (No, as I have mentioned, by the time you threw out your “50 reasons the Church isn’t true, we spend the rest of our time catching up and responding to every sensational accusation you could care to make). Is the purpose to prove that Mormonism is true or false? (Certainly, the radio station’s purpose HAS to be this since they cannot be seen as befriending what they consider to be false doctrine or giving us a platform from which to espouse it. No doubt that this is your purpose according to this blog.

    As for Mormons, we know that it is not the individual but the Spirit of the Lord who “proves” to an individual that the work is true, and they have to actually pray and pick up and read the Book of Mormon, plus visit the Church to have the Spirit work in their minds and hearts. The Spirit will not be in a contentious atmosphere. Since my entire purpose would be for individuals to sense the spirit of the Lord, I’m afraid the Brad/Amanda combination is what flies out the window. I can easily get people with authority–and by that I mean the Priesthood of God–to be there with people like myself who also have the testimony of the Restoration, so that isn’t the bottom line issue. I wouldn’t do it by myself because judging from our exchange, regardless of what is said and by whom, you would no doubt walk away with the idea that you had just “debunked” Mormonism, and, bless your heart (now THAT’S condescending!), it just wouldn’t be true– even if it appeared to everyone who heard the show that it WAS true. End of pros and cons. That’s a chance I would never take, not for your spiritual future nor my own.

  112. John said

    “I’m ignoring anything from John in the future.”-Brad
    But I bet you read this.
    Has a nerve been struck?
    As if I would care?If I were you, I would have been ignoring me for MONTHS now. After all, why should you give a darn what I think about anything, anyway?Remember, I once told you that I WANT you to disagree with me, because it makes you all the more interesting[amusing] to me.And you chose not to believe me[Big toothy smile].

  113. Brad said

    “I have said no such thing–you and people like you are fortunately the exception. (What’s the point of repeating what is never heard?) When I see or hear slander and lies being told about my faith, it is my duty to God to bear my witness of the error, so lets limit comments to present company. Mission completed.” (Amanda)

    What lies? There have been no lies told about your faith, Amanda.

    “Of course, Brad, as part of my search for truth. How could I have asked God for the gift of discernment if I closed my eyes to one side? That was part of my 9 months investigation. I visited other churches and read anything anyone sent me, including a visit by a Pentecostal couple who were quite anti-Mormon, letters from friends who had gotten bad material–even visited with my preacher. There was no one-sided investigation here. I valued my parents and their opinion and love too much. The thing you haven’t recognized is that when one is seeking truth at God’s hand, he or she can easily recognize a bad spirit. Even though I barely knew anything about the Church, I knew instantly from my limited experience and exposure that much of what was being said was untrue and smacked of yelllow journalism. Finally, once God answered me with the witness of the Holy Ghost, there remained only to read occasional “anti”-lit so I wouldn’t be surprised by all the pot shots and would be able to respond to MY OWN satisfaction.” (Amanda)

    And you call this “objective”? Did you truly research the religion, apart from just what you were sent or visiting with the Pentecostals? Did you truly investigate the claims as to archaeology, history, etc… not supporting what is written? The Book of Abraham? Numerous other things that all point to Smith being a fraud? Did you TRULY do it, or do you just SAY you did it objectively. From what you write above, it doesn’t appear so.

    “Let’s look at the puropse of such an on-air meeting. Will it bring people to Christ? (No, most listeners are already converted to Christ. Mormons, most certainly, and one doesn’t have to be a Mormon to receive the Christ of the Bible.)” (Amanda)

    Presuppose much? How do you know it wouldn’t, for sure, Amanda? How do you know most listeners are already converted to Christ? Mormons aren’t, though you claim they are, b/c they follow a different Christ. That could be the case for many others, we don’t know for sure.

    Then what is my purpose? To educate people about the Church? (No, as I have mentioned, by the time you threw out your “50 reasons the Church isn’t true, we spend the rest of our time catching up and responding to every sensational accusation you could care to make).” (Amanda)

    If you choose to pass up the opportunity to defend your faith, as 1 Peter 3:15 says we should always be ready to do, that is your business. I never miss the opportunity to defend mine. The reason that it might be possible that we would spend much of the time talking about the reasons the church isn’t true, is b/c there’s a lot of reasons the church isn’t true. That’s easy.

    “Is the purpose to prove that Mormonism is true or false? (Certainly, the radio station’s purpose HAS to be this since they cannot be seen as befriending what they consider to be false doctrine or giving us a platform from which to espouse it. No doubt that this is your purpose according to this blog.” (Amanda)

    Absolutely, I would want to show others, as I have done on these many blogs, that Mormonism is completely false, a fabrication in Smith’s mind, and that it does not and cannot offer salvation for anyone, anytime.

    As for Mormons, we know that it is not the individual but the Spirit of the Lord who “proves” to an individual that the work is true…” (Amanda)

    I agree, it is the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin and guilt, the Bible is clear on that. However, do you not agree that the Holy Spirit often works through other Christians to accomplish His mission? So while it may not be the “individual” who does the “proving”, it can most certainly be an “individual” who does the “telling.”

    “…and they have to actually pray and pick up and read the Book of Mormon, plus visit the Church to have the Spirit work in their minds and hearts.” (Amanda)

    And here is where I, and many others, have one of the biggest points of contention with the LDS church. You can say all you want, as you have, that you believe the Bible is important, that you are focused on Jesus, etc… However, at the end of the day, your argument always boils down to what you say above – that you need the BOM and the LDS church to truly have the Spirit come and work. That is not Biblical at all, and is elevating your religion to a place it does not have. You can pay all the lip service you want to the Bible, Amanda, but at the end of the day, we can see by your writings, what you say, that the church’s real basis for truth is the writings of Smith and itself, the church. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…

    “I can easily get people with authority–and by that I mean the Priesthood of God–to be there with people like myself who also have the testimony of the Restoration, so that isn’t the bottom line issue.” (Amanda)

    Heck, Amanda, I’m part of the royal priesthood, according to the Bible. Does it not say that believers will be a “royal priesthood, a holy nation”? It doesn’t take any special ceremony or anything to receive that, according to the Bible. Once again, the Mormon church has it wrong.

    “I wouldn’t do it by myself because judging from our exchange, regardless of what is said and by whom, you would no doubt walk away with the idea that you had just “debunked” Mormonism, and, bless your heart (now THAT’S condescending!), it just wouldn’t be true– even if it appeared to everyone who heard the show that it WAS true.” (Amanda)

    Amanda, just b/c you choose to not believe it, doesn’t make it not true. Mormonism has been shown by many (both people who’ve never been Mormon as well as former Mormons) to be a complete sham. There’s countless sources, countless logical arguments given, numerous inconsistencies pointed out in the LDS belief system and its texts, and on and on. And you could have Hinckley on the show – he is no more able to convince anyone of Mormonism’s truthfulness than you are, b/c all your arguments and defenses are built on nothing – no facts, nothing. Denial is not just a river in Egypt, Amanda.

  114. Amanda said

    Lies: We could begin with your statements that we are not Christian, that we do not believe the Bible nor translate it correctly, that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, that we do not worship the God or Christ of the Bible, to name just a few “minors.” You have also misinterpreted every point I have made to try to invent some new ones along the way.

    “And you call this “objective”?” (Brad) Absolutely. I just did not rule out God Himself as the ultimate resource in my research (after all I could do)–which seems to automatically disqualify objectivity in your opinion since you do not accept the witness of the Holy Ghost as absolute proof–at least when I rely upon Him.

    ” How do you know most listeners are already converted to Christ? Mormons aren’t,” (Brad) Repetitive lie number one.
    Your purpose would not be–has not been on this blog–to bring people to Christ–which is good, Brad, in this case. You would spend all your time railing against Mormonism since that is your passion.

    Going to a radio station against the faith and talking pro and con with a person against the faith in front of an audience pretty much on board with the radio station is not the most productive use of “missionary” time. In fact, intentionally going anywhere that something I hold sacred is going to be debated and held up to ridicule is not the prescribed example of missionary work in either the Bible or Book of Mormon. If it happens along the way of obtaining a higher goal, then the Lord would help me deal with it, but He also expects me to use the brain He gave me.

    About the individual doing the “telling,” you are correct. The Spirit works through the individual, but a lot depends upon the “Christianity” of the individual as to whether the Spirit will be felt, and the Lord doesn’t usually witness to the intent of one teaching negatively what another believes from incorrect sources–even if he uses the Bible to do it.

    “You can pay all the lip service you want to the Bible, Amanda, but at the end of the day, we can see by your writings, what you say, that the church’s real basis for truth is the writings of Smith and itself, the church.” (Brad)

    This is classic Brad and exactly why I will never appear with you anywhere. You’re so anxious to jump to your preformed conclusions that you ignore everything I do wrtie or say to reaffirm your point. Obviously, one must read the Bible to know that it is the word of God. Can you expect any less of the Book of Mormon? My conversion took place reading quotes from the Bible and quotes from the Book of Mormon side by side with same familiar spirit of truth. The Spirit works on your mind and heart while you’re reading the Bible, and it works the same way with the Book of Mormon. Yes, you have to put some intelligence (light and truth) in the brain to enable the Spirit to witness to its truthfulness, Brad. Try it–you might like it. 🙂

    Ducks? That’s a good analogy for people who “parrot” anti- Mormon literature. Oh yes, “parrot” is even better.

    Does it not say that believers will be a “royal priesthood, a holy nation”? (Brad)

    Actually, the “royal priesthood” comment as I read it was addressed to members of the Lord’s official church, established under apostles and prophets–already baptized, alreay ordained to the priesthood members. Last I checked in the Bible, that authority was given by the Lord himself and soon, by those he had given it to. (The idea that we are all missionaries we agree upon.) Since you don’t believe in the Lord’s Priesthood, we needn’t go there either.

    “Mormonism has been shown by many (both people who’ve never been Mormon as well as former Mormons) to be a complete sham.” (Brad)

    Again, Brad, repeating an error over and over doesn’t make it true. As I’ve said before, when God stops giving His own witness to His truth and His peace and His spiritual “rest” to honest seekers of truth,” people will stop joining this “sham.” If it is a sham, and if it has been “proven” a sham by all the means you have denoted, don’t you think its membership will stop doubling every 10 years? I’ll be happy to talk to you again then if you like.

  115. John said

    Amanda, you flatter me.It is sad that, on a blog full of Christians, I was the one to get this great compliment,[expecially being a Wiccan,and after admitting that I’m sometimes bad and so on] but thank you anyway.Surely you knew that the “Brad-minded people” here would hold this against you[“See!? See!?Bad judgement!Crappy ethics!Birds of a feather!!!”]as a confirmation of their opinions.But……who cares?
    Not me.But then,I’m weird[smile].
    I can hardly wait for the “Interview with a Jehovah’s Witness” show, or if Stu actually finds a real Satanist to interview[Or do they think that was me?It would figure].Good luck to you.

  116. Amanda said

    John,

    I really DO believe you are a good person with the discernment given to each of us to help us sort out what is right and true–and that includes what FEELS right and true. We’re all seeking truth here during our mortality, and we will “prove” the things and the people that come into our lives way along the way. Yours was the only really truthful and comforting voice I heard when I could most appreciate it on this blog, and by in making your presence known, you were answering our Savior’s call for us to “comfort a stranger in a ‘foreign’ land.” You knew what I was feeling and experiencing, and I appreciated that.

    I have every confidence that you will continue to receive inspiration, guidance, truth, and all the blessings you are ready to receive as you seek them sincerely. And you’re right: we shouldn’t care what the “naysayers” say–especially the ones who don’t even care to know or see who we really are on the inside–children of God.(Also, please note that there are many wonderful Christians out there who are not Mormon and whose words you will never read on this blog too!)

    I’ll always remember you,

    Amanda

  117. John said

    Thank you.I appreciate being appreciated.[Brad! Are you peeking?Heh!Heh!Heh!]
    I’m really not as evil as I let on[well, more good than evil, anyway]but I do have my moments.I am an old crocodile in the river of life.I’m related to some of those Christians, you know, although some might disagree as to how “Christian” they are.
    Fare you well,Amanda.

  118. Brad said

    “Lies: We could begin with your statements that we are not Christian, that we do not believe the Bible nor translate it correctly, that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, that we do not worship the God or Christ of the Bible, to name just a few “minors.” You have also misinterpreted every point I have made to try to invent some new ones along the way.” (Amanda)

    I asked for the lies, Amanda; everything you referenced above is true about Mormonism. Do you have any LIES to talk about? I’ve gone over and over and over this with you. Nobody would read the Bible and come to the intepretations you do about verses you say point to Mormonism, UNLESS they had already been pre-disposed to Mormonism. It’s just not there.

    “I just did not rule out God Himself as the ultimate resource in my research (after all I could do)–which seems to automatically disqualify objectivity in your opinion since you do not accept the witness of the Holy Ghost as absolute proof–at least when I rely upon Him.” (Amanda)

    I don’t accept you saying that the Holy Spirit witnessed to you that Mormonism is true. Not for a second. The Spirit won’t witness to something to be true that runs contrary to Scripture.

    “Repetitive lie number one. [about Mormons not being Christian]” (Amanda)

    Nope. It’s true, Amanda. Sorry

    “Your purpose would not be–has not been on this blog–to bring people to Christ–which is good, Brad, in this case. You would spend all your time railing against Mormonism since that is your passion.” (Amanda)

    I have many passions – exposing and debating false religions is one of them. Mormonism fits into that definition. If people come to Christ, great. If, at the least, they DON’T come to Mormonism, still a victory.

    “Going to a radio station against the faith and talking pro and con with a person against the faith in front of an audience pretty much on board with the radio station is not the most productive use of “missionary” time. In fact, intentionally going anywhere that something I hold sacred is going to be debated and held up to ridicule is not the prescribed example of missionary work in either the Bible or Book of Mormon. If it happens along the way of obtaining a higher goal, then the Lord would help me deal with it, but He also expects me to use the brain He gave me.” (Amanda)

    Whatever suits you, Amanda. The offer still stands.

    “About the individual doing the “telling,” you are correct. The Spirit works through the individual, but a lot depends upon the “Christianity” of the individual as to whether the Spirit will be felt, and the Lord doesn’t usually witness to the intent of one teaching negatively what another believes from incorrect sources–even if he uses the Bible to do it.” (Amanda)

    There’s no incorrect teaching, Amanda. Everything I said from the Bible is true. And Mormonism is false.

    “This is classic Brad and exactly why I will never appear with you anywhere. You’re so anxious to jump to your preformed conclusions that you ignore everything I do wrtie or say to reaffirm your point. Obviously, one must read the Bible to know that it is the word of God. Can you expect any less of the Book of Mormon? My conversion took place reading quotes from the Bible and quotes from the Book of Mormon side by side with same familiar spirit of truth. The Spirit works on your mind and heart while you’re reading the Bible, and it works the same way with the Book of Mormon. Yes, you have to put some intelligence (light and truth) in the brain to enable the Spirit to witness to its truthfulness, Brad. Try it–you might like it.” (Amanda)

    You still equate the Bible and BOM, yet you refer much more often to “the BOM says” or “the church says” or “the prophet says”, rather than the Bible says. It’s unmistakable, Amanda.

    “Actually, the “royal priesthood” comment as I read it was addressed to members of the Lord’s official church, established under apostles and prophets–already baptized, alreay ordained to the priesthood members. Last I checked in the Bible, that authority was given by the Lord himself and soon, by those he had given it to. (The idea that we are all missionaries we agree upon.) Since you don’t believe in the Lord’s Priesthood, we needn’t go there either.” (Amanda)

    1 Peter 2:9 says “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” This in no way is applied only to Mormons, or only to certain people called to a higher position; this is written to Peter’s entire audience, which would be Christians.

    “Again, Brad, repeating an error over and over doesn’t make it true. As I’ve said before, when God stops giving His own witness to His truth and His peace and His spiritual “rest” to honest seekers of truth,” people will stop joining this “sham.” If it is a sham, and if it has been “proven” a sham by all the means you have denoted, don’t you think its membership will stop doubling every 10 years? I’ll be happy to talk to you again then if you like.” (Amanda)

    Again, Amanda, repeating an illogical statement doesn’t make it true. Your logic is faulty, as I’ve explained to you before; but even if it weren’t, God isn’t drawing anyone into Mormonism. Satan is, b/c it’s drawing people away from God, his ultimate goal.

  119. Amanda said

    “You still equate the Bible and BOM, yet you refer much more often to “the BOM says” or “the church says” or “the prophet says”, rather than the Bible says. It’s unmistakable, Amanda.” (Brad)

    The reason I do that, Brad, is because it may be the only unbiased exposure to the Book of Mormon and Church doctrine that you will ever have, and I want you to see that nothing there is unChristian. In fact, it smacks of truth, each verse in and of itself. Also, I rather think we’re both extremely familiar with the Bible, and my time is valuable just as your is. Besides, you either ignored or insulted any quote from the Bible I shared with you.

    (The royal priesthood comment: “This in no way is applied only to Mormons, or only to certain people called to a higher position; this is written to Peter’s entire audience, which would be Christians.” (Brad)

    Again, Brad, the only Christians Peter was addressing at the time were baptized, ordained, full-fledged members of the Lord’s authoritative Church, which had become a worldwide church just as it is now, established upon prophets and apostles. It’s true that we should read the Bible as if every word is aimed at us when possible, but it helps to understand the audience designated at the time to further understand the Bible itself. We rather flatter ourselves if we assume that we have the same authority without the restoration of prophets and apostles and the priesthood which gives its administrators the power to “bind on earth and in heaven,” don’t you think? Martin Luther, John Wesley, and Roger Smith did.

    “If, at the least, they DON’T come to Mormonism, still a victory.” (Brad)

    For you, yes; for God, no.

    “Do you have any LIES to talk about?” (Brad)

    Pick ANY statement you have “authoritatively” made about the Church (leave out the scriptural interpretations because many other Christians outside the LDS Church don’t agree with your every interpretation–they’re not all Baptists) and it pretty much qualifies, Brad. Just reread your blog posts.

    I just want you to know, Brad, that though you are woefully wrong in your accusations against the Church, I hold no malice towards you, and I wouldn’t be opposed to speaking with you on the street. There is just no room for further discussion on this subject since life is so short!

    I have fillings in my teeth, and if you were to tell me repeatedly that I didn’t, it would have the same effect as your telling me repeatedly that I am not saved, do not know my Savior, and that the Church is not what it claims to be. To insist that you know more about my church than I do will always be offensive and arrogant–to me and also to any other real Mormon.

  120. Ted said

    At least the wiccan had the guts to go on the air and face down Stu and his listeners. What say you, Amanda?

  121. Amanda said

    Ted,

    I would say that you and others on this blog are the “goadingest” people I know! I admire John for doing what he did and wish I’d heard the show. Again, I could never willingly allow someone to hold my religion up to public ridicule. Wrong audience, wrong format, wrong intent by those in charge and participating=waste of time and lack of intelligence on my part to do so. I’ll save my courage for when the Spirit says “Go!” 🙂

  122. Brad said

    “The reason I do that, Brad, is because it may be the only unbiased exposure to the Book of Mormon and Church doctrine that you will ever have, and I want you to see that nothing there is unChristian.” (Amanda)

    Wow – unbiased? No, you’re not biased towards it in any way, are you? It’s not that I’ve not been exposed to it, Amanda – it’s that I don’t BELIEVE it!!

    “Again, Brad, the only Christians Peter was addressing at the time were baptized, ordained, full-fledged members of the Lord’s authoritative Church, which had become a worldwide church just as it is now, established upon prophets and apostles.” (Amanda)

    You make this more difficult than it truly is. Peter was addressing early Christians. They had most likely been baptized. Not sure why you think they were necessarily “ordained”, and not sure what a “full-fledged” member means, exactly, but they were Christians, and thus part of the early church. The church wasn’t established upon ANY man, but upon Christ. If you think the church was established upon any man, you are gravely mistaken, and Scripture does not support that line of thinking, at all.

    “It’s true that we should read the Bible as if every word is aimed at us when possible, but it helps to understand the audience designated at the time to further understand the Bible itself.” (Amanda)

    Every word IS aimed at us. I agree that it is helpful to understand the audience – that’s why I’m telling you this, b/c you have a misunderstanding, currently.

    “We rather flatter ourselves if we assume that we have the same authority without the restoration of prophets and apostles and the priesthood which gives its administrators the power to “bind on earth and in heaven,” don’t you think? Martin Luther, John Wesley, and Roger Smith did.” (Amanda)

    Again, Amanda, I’ve addressed this before with you. You COMPLETELY misinterpret Scripture, when Jesus is talking to Peter. Don’t feel bad, many others do as well, including the Catholic Church, as one good example. Christians who believe in Christ (of the Bible, not of Mormonism) are ALL part of a royal priesthood, as shown in 1 Peter 2:9. You can’t get around that, using proper interpretation of Scripture. What the Mormon church has done is seek to elevate some members to a more authoritative status, something that Scripture doesn’t support. It’s a very hierarchial religion.

    “For you, yes; for God, no.” (Amanda)

    For God, yes as well, as He doesn’t want anyone to perish – Mormons are perishing.

    “Pick ANY statement you have “authoritatively” made about the Church (leave out the scriptural interpretations because many other Christians outside the LDS Church don’t agree with your every interpretation–they’re not all Baptists) and it pretty much qualifies, Brad. Just reread your blog posts.” (Amanda)

    I’ve read them, Amanda – I wrote them. NOTHING is a lie – everything I said is true, and I have backed it up with Scripture and logic. You choose to believe differently, that is your right. But it doesn’t make these lies.

    “I just want you to know, Brad, that though you are woefully wrong in your accusations against the Church, I hold no malice towards you, and I wouldn’t be opposed to speaking with you on the street. There is just no room for further discussion on this subject since life is so short!” (Amanda)

    That’s good, though I’m not the one who’s woefully wrong, unfortunately.

    “I have fillings in my teeth, and if you were to tell me repeatedly that I didn’t, it would have the same effect as your telling me repeatedly that I am not saved, do not know my Savior, and that the Church is not what it claims to be.” (Amanda)

    Except for we can SEE your fillings, and have EVIDENCE that a dentist placed them in your mouth. That’s a LONG way from being applicable to this, Amanda. There is no EVIDENCE for your beliefs, only feelings. It would be like you saying you feel you have fillings in, when they’re really not in your mouth at all. Big difference.

    “To insist that you know more about my church than I do will always be offensive and arrogant–to me and also to any other real Mormon.” (Amanda)

    I never insisted I know MORE about the church than you, I only insisted that what I know about LDS is correct. And it is. Amanda, the evidence is absolutely overwhelming, but you have been so indoctrinated against believing anything else, that you can’t see it. I truly feel sorry for you about that.

  123. Amanda said

    An important conclusion:

    Brad and others like to quote 1 Peter 3:15 because deep down they know that I believe the Bible quite literally and want to live up to its teachings. (Any devout “Mormon” does.) The Bible says:

    “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear (reverence, awe).”

    I would ask you, readers, if Brad EVER asked me a question he didn’t either tell me the answer to or reject my answer to? Did he ask me the “reason” I believe I have hope or knowledge within me as to being saved or the reason I joined the Church or think I am a Christian? The reason I know that I worship the God of the Bible? Did he ask me ANY question because he wanted to KNOW something? Or did I ever give him an anwer to the pre-planned questions he asked that he received or even believed? Either I am a habitual liar or he is impenetrable as to his agenda against what he feels is the “Mormon” church.

    This blog exchange is a forerunner of what he hopes would occur during an on-air exchange, so neither he–nor the “Truth Talk Live” show–qualify as a member of the “every man that asketh you a reason” set, and that also covers the majority of their audience. (It’s those who would tune out to such a show that I respect.)

    Enough said.

  124. Ted said

    Re: post #121

    nevertheless…

  125. Amanda said

    When I said the scriptures I gave you were unbiased, it is because any scripture is unbiased until YOU put an interpretation or spin on it.

    The Priesthood is available to any worthy male member of the Church, and the priesthood contains many different callings. The Priesthood is given for organizational purposes and includes keys of authority involving proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, and edifying the body of Christ. (Eph. 4:11-13, again)Also, there are seventies, apostles and prophets, elders. If one reads the Bible, it’s all there. It’s not an exclusive club which elevates certain people since callings are issued by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost and not bought or sought after. (How do I know? Faith, knowledge, observation and the witness of the Holy Ghost at work in the church from the bottom up.)

    “The church wasn’t established upon ANY man, but upon Christ.” (Brad)

    Again, I’m trying not to give you back your own medicine about scriptural knowledge and interpretation, but do you remember the verse in Eph. 2:20, about …”the household of God… (which is) built upon the FOUNDATION of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone?”

    If it didn’t describe my church, I probably wouldn’t pay it any attention either–nor the verses about the priesthood except as I could apply it to myself generically. But since I had to seek out from God knoweldge as to whether or not it applied to a church restored in these latter days, the Spirit impressed my soul with it indelibly.

    Again, Martin Luther, John Wesley, and Roger Smith all confessed that until God retored apostles once more, there was no ultimate authority on church matters. We could all learn from their humility in acknowledging this truth. Then, if someone should claim that authority who also claimed to have something, like angelic ministering, the Book of Mormon and The Doctrines and Covenants, brought for by the power of God, to explain how to do it, wouldn’t it be natural to ask God in faith and then study and observe such an organization IF you felt led to as I did in order to receive the witness of the Holy Ghost about it? No one is asking anyone to divorce their brain from the process or their knowledge of the Bible–both are needed. If for any other reason, one does not receive a witness, he or she would still be considered a “brother or sister in Christ” insofar as he/she accepts the Bible and the Christ of the Bible. If I didn’t accept the Christ of the Bible (although not the Christian historical decisions handed down about His being of “one substance” with the Father in any way but in Spirit), would I even need to consider such a person a “brother” in Christ?

    About my fillings, Brad: It doesn’t matter if you see them or not, just as it doesn’t matter if you see Christ face to face or not or if you believe the Bible or not. His witness is still there, and so are my fillings.

  126. Amanda said

    “I never insisted I know MORE about the church than you, I only insisted that what I know about LDS is correct.” (Brad)

    That you insist that what you know about the LDS church is MORE CORRECT than what I know about it will always be offensive and arrogant to me and other devout “Mormons.”

  127. Brad said

    “An important conclusion:” (Amanda)

    A false one, but what’s new?

    “Brad and others like to quote 1 Peter 3:15 because deep down they know that I believe the Bible quite literally and want to live up to its teachings. (Any devout “Mormon” does.)” (Amanda)

    I quote it b/c it’s true.

    “I would ask you, readers, if Brad EVER asked me a question he didn’t either tell me the answer to or reject my answer to?” (Amanda)

    Very few times – b/c I already knew the answer, and b/c the answer you gave was wrong.

    “Did he ask me the “reason” I believe I have hope or knowledge within me as to being saved or the reason I joined the Church or think I am a Christian? The reason I know that I worship the God of the Bible?” (Amanda)

    Yes, numerous times I’ve asked you this. “What’s your proof?” “Why do you believe that?” “What’s your basis?” Everytime I’ve asked those, I gave you the basis to implement a 1 Peter 3:15 action.

    “Did he ask me ANY question because he wanted to KNOW something? Or did I ever give him an anwer to the pre-planned questions he asked that he received or even believed?” (Amanda)

    The only thing I ever wanted to know (which is what I didn’t already know about Mormonism) was how you could believe in it, when all the evidence is overwhelmingly against it. Didn’t make sense to me before, doesn’t make sense to me now.

    “Either I am a habitual liar or he is impenetrable as to his agenda against what he feels is the “Mormon” church.” (Amanda)

    Of course, let’s not forget the 3rd option – you’re actually wrong about what you believe. This is what I, and those who know better, go with.

    “This blog exchange is a forerunner of what he hopes would occur during an on-air exchange, so neither he–nor the “Truth Talk Live” show–qualify as a member of the “every man that asketh you a reason” set, and that also covers the majority of their audience. (It’s those who would tune out to such a show that I respect.)” (Amanda)

    Yet she keeps coming back for more, and more, and more, and more… but then again, it’s easy to do when you’re online with only a name and email address, and not live taking calls, isn’t it? The people who would call in would also want to know your “reason”, Amanda – why you can continue to believe in a religion where the evidential deck is clearly stacked against you. It boggles the Christian mind, believe us.

    Readers, don’t let Amanda fool you. It’s all smoke and mirrors, lies and deceptions, a product of Joseph Smith’s confused mind. He has realized his mistake by now, as have all the Mormons who have already died and are awaiting their final judgment. Any who are alive still have the opportunity to repent and come to a real Savior, Jesus Christ of the Bible, not a created being, but triune God. Don’t be confused, or misled.

  128. Brad said

    “The Priesthood is available to any worthy male member of the Church, and the priesthood contains many different callings.” (Amanda)

    Ladies, don’t worry about applying, you’re not eligible. Another nice Mormon touch, I think. Still goes against what is written in 1st Peter, since that wasn’t addressed specifically to male church members, but I guess that’s irrelevant?

    “The Priesthood is given for organizational purposes and includes keys of authority involving proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, and edifying the body of Christ. (Eph. 4:11-13, again)Also, there are seventies, apostles and prophets, elders. If one reads the Bible, it’s all there. It’s not an exclusive club which elevates certain people since callings are issued by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost and not bought or sought after. (How do I know? Faith, knowledge, observation and the witness of the Holy Ghost at work in the church from the bottom up.)” (Amanda)

    There are biblical offices, yes. I’m not disputing that. What I’m saying, in regards to your priesthood, is that scripture makes it clear that once we’re saved, we’re all part of a royal priesthood. Read Peter, read Hebrews.

    “Again, I’m trying not to give you back your own medicine about scriptural knowledge and interpretation, but do you remember the verse in Eph. 2:20, about …”the household of God… (which is) built upon the FOUNDATION of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone?” (Amanda)

    Who is the the cornerstone? Jesus. Let’s also not forget v. 21-22 “In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.” In WHO? Christ. Were the apostles with Him on Earth, assisting Him? Yes. But were they what the church was built upon? No. It was Christ. You place too much importance on your apostles and prophet, Amanda.

    “If it didn’t describe my church, I probably wouldn’t pay it any attention either–nor the verses about the priesthood except as I could apply it to myself generically. But since I had to seek out from God knoweldge as to whether or not it applied to a church restored in these latter days, the Spirit impressed my soul with it indelibly.” (Amanda)

    Of course, never mind that it doesn’t describe YOUR church specifically, but Christ’s church. Minor detail you may want to get right.

    “Again, Martin Luther, John Wesley, and Roger Smith all confessed that until God retored apostles once more, there was no ultimate authority on church matters. We could all learn from their humility in acknowledging this truth.” (Amanda)

    Well heck, since THEY said so… Not to diminish the importance of these men, but just b/c they said something, doesn’t make it patently true. What does Scripture say (the whole of Scripture, not just single verses)? That’s where we look.

    “Then, if someone should claim that authority who also claimed to have something, like angelic ministering, the Book of Mormon and The Doctrines and Covenants, brought for by the power of God, to explain how to do it, wouldn’t it be natural to ask God in faith and then study and observe such an organization IF you felt led to as I did in order to receive the witness of the Holy Ghost about it? No one is asking anyone to divorce their brain from the process or their knowledge of the Bible–both are needed. If for any other reason, one does not receive a witness, he or she would still be considered a “brother or sister in Christ” insofar as he/she accepts the Bible and the Christ of the Bible. If I didn’t accept the Christ of the Bible (although not the Christian historical decisions handed down about His being of “one substance” with the Father in any way but in Spirit), would I even need to consider such a person a “brother” in Christ?” (Amanda)

    Blah, blah, blah, more of the same, Amanda. We’re not brothers and sisters in Christ, b/c we don’t believe in the same Christ. Period.

    “About my fillings, Brad: It doesn’t matter if you see them or not, just as it doesn’t matter if you see Christ face to face or not or if you believe the Bible or not. His witness is still there, and so are my fillings.” (Amanda)

    You can SEE the fillings, and the dentist who put them in, but not the “witness” you supposedly received. BIG difference.

  129. Brad said

    “That you insist that what you know about the LDS church is MORE CORRECT than what I know about it will always be offensive and arrogant to me and other devout “Mormons.” (Amanda)

    So be it. The gospel is offensive.

  130. Amanda said

    Highlight everything Brad said in his last responses, factor in my responses, and my reply is:

    I rest my case.

  131. Mike Sears said

    Amanda
    Regarding Post #121. What do you think Paul did by going to the Synagogue and then to the Areopagus in Acts 17:16-? Most of them thought he was a fool, (Imagine that John!) but a few came to trust Christ.

  132. John said

    Imagine this,I could care less.Even if the story was true, and if Paul wasn’t actually a fool, it matters not to me at all.Why should it?Hmmmmmmmm?
    Remember, I never said that Christianity was a “false” religion with a “false” God,[that’s the hobby of people like you] and that I found no merits within the religion.Simply that it was not MY religion or deity of choice,and that I believed in “more”.You make me smile, Mr.Sears.How’s that achey-breaky heart of you’res doing?Have you traded in you’re sandles for a pair of good boots?

  133. Mike Sears said

    You have a good sense of humor John! 🙂 A little skewed but funny. I bet you used to love Far Side!

  134. Mike Sears said

    I figured you got the touch of sarcasm, as I know you think us to be fools. Right there along with Paul.

  135. John said

    Amanda, the “interview” that I was on was nothing really to be proud of.The period of time that I spent talking was very, very short.You see, it was easy for me because A:Nobody knew anything about Wicca, and B:Nobody wanted to know anything about Wicca.The callers, almost everyone, were too busy trying to convert me or think of ways to “prove” me wronge to ask or learn anything about my faith.The “Interview with a Wiccan” site was more helpful [for them],along with any little reply I’ve made since then, but they really only know what I let them know about my denomination of the religion.It would be more difficult for you,because you’re denomination is so well known.There is a common ground to work with[the Bible]and they have more “fule” for an argument, as they can try to use you’re own scripture against you [as you’ve seen on this blog].Some thing that isn’t possible with someone like me.You’re most likly right about what it would be like, but if it’s anything like what mine was, then you would end it thinking “Is that it?”I think that I only talked for about 10 minutes, tops, during the whole 60 minute show [“The FASTEST hour in radio!”].There were soooooo many interuptions[breaks,pre-recorded testimonials,ect.]and Stu seemed to want 10 second answers.It was a cinch, although an uninlightening cinch.

  136. John said

    Mr. Sears, I don’t think of you [well, not ALL of you] as fools.A little crazy, maybe, but then almost everybody is.You’re intitled. And yes,I loved the Far Side comics.I have every one of the books.

  137. Amanda said

    Who doesn’t like the Far Side comics? Great stuff, usually! Some feeble ones in with the good stuff if you got the big books as my family did.

    Mike asked a good question, and again we have to look at the whole picture. Paul, remember, held the cloaks of those who stoned Stephen and consented to his death, plus committed many other sins against the Christians. He was taught directly by God what to share and committed himself to preach Christ everywhere and anywhere possible as part of his repentance (“For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.” Acts 9:16) and out of gratitude for God’s forgiveness of his sins. (He considered himself the least of the disciples because of his past.) To relate: The purpose of my being asked on the show would not be to preach Christ (nor would Brad’s) but to try to prove that I worship a DIFFERENT CHRIST as well as Mormonism in general. What a foolish goal and how foolish to even dignify it on my part. Everything I said, as has been shown here on the blog, would be denied, called a lie, or misguided, and the very best we could hope for is a stalemate. Period. I could refer listeners to the Church website and get better results.

    Secondly, wherever Paul went, he was led by the Spirit. See Acts 16:6&7. He would not go where the Spirit forbade, and I try to do likewise. The Spirit does NOT condone this contentious adventure under THESE circumstances. It would be based upon argument (see 1 Cor.11:16 again) balanced along with the other obstacles John mentioned. Not a good use of the Lord’s time or mine, that’s for sure. Besides, it would take Brad more than one hour uninterrupted to understand ONE statement we or I made by the time he finished resisting it–as if that could even happen.(Throw in Acts 12:27-31 in reference to Brad’s complaining about the foundation of the Church. Very good reference.) Brad, save your time and don’t bother to tell me that I don’t get inspiration from the Spirit; it’s getting old hearing you refute that Mormons can exercise faith and receive answers to prayer, both before and/or after they join the Church. Isn’t it enough that you short sell the Holy Ghost, His existence and purpose, in practicality to begin with? Although I haven’t seen evidence of it on this blog, I would even grant you that privilege and not stick my neck out before God to say that thus far, when it comes to Mormonism, you only take cues from Satan. (Nor could I deny it.)

    I have no apostolic calling as Paul did to address every person who might think I am a fool unless I meet them one on one and they are sincere in their questions. No need to be like the clown over the water at the fair and let someone like Brad take all the pot shots he wants without ADEQUATE rebuttle time (I said this more eloquently in a former post 🙂 ), and since there ARE answers to be shared, and there is much to be taught, I will hold out for a more promising opportunity like I had in Raleigh. I rejoice in questions when talking to an honest and genuinely curious heart. My spiritual purpose on this blog has already been explained, and I have done more than I perhaps should have to fulfill it.

    John,

    Thanks for the update! You are a patient man and good-humored at that. Understand, though, that I could not represent what I know to be the Lord’s restored church on earth without a level playing court and a station and audience that at least pretended convincingly to be objective. The word games these guys would be playing do not justify such effort and preparation. I’ve told the Moderator many times my conditions for appearing on this radio station. I would walk away apologizing to God under the circumstances you described for getting sucked into it. I will not be publicly responsible for anyone’s learning all the trash circulated about the Church by people like Brad. “By their fruits ye shall know them,” Jesus said, and people like Brad have but one agenda–to prevent peopleand freely makes available.

  138. Amanda said

    People like Brad have but one agenda–to prevent people from examining or tasting the fruit that God so readily and freely makes available. ” Amanda

    I’m not sure why a chunck of my statement was cut off when I pressed “send.”

  139. John said

    Amanda,
    I agreed to the interview because:
    A.Amusement and sadistic curiosity.I wanted to see what they might ask a real Witch about.
    B.Because I knew that it would lead to a place like this, where I could study the thoughts of my opposites.
    C.To clear up misconceptions [if possible]about my religion,to an entire nation of Christians that may be listening.
    Mainly A. and B.
    I knew that C. was likely a lost cause, but, why not try anyway?There was nothing to lose,really.
    The results have been interesting.I’ll shut up about it from now on[grin].

  140. Amanda said

    John, I responded to your last remarks last night, but somehow my response is gone this morning. Anyway, I’ve enjoyed hearing everything you have to share about your experience, and you confirmed a lot of my suspicions about how things would go. Your C is the only justifiable reason I could go on the air, and even to do that, the “Mormon” side should be unopposed in order to have sufficient time to respond to the wild cards people have in their decks about the Church. Phone calls would provide enough fuel for discussion, and we don’t need a “Brad” there to prevent the hope of any clarity taking place.(Does the station and he think his thoughts are the only ones that matter?) Anyone supporting HIS brand of “sharing” information is not interested in the Christian way.

  141. Moderator (not Stu) said

    Hi everyone – We’ve been having some issues with the site “timing out” too soon. What that means is that if you log in and spend time on the site, it logs you out before you can finish what you’re doing. We’re working on the problem and confident everything will be fine.

    Just a note…We would never, ever, ever delete comments and posts or portions of them unless they are deemed offensive, inappropriate or if they attack people personally, such as name calling, etc. It’s OK to argue and debate vigorously to the point of calling people out based on your beliefs, which is what we believe is taking place here on this thread between Amanda, Brad and John. It’s not OK to threaten or attack someone personally, etc. Hope that makes sense.

    Amanda – If you were to come on the show we would make 100% sure that you were able to debate and express yourself without fear of being talked over or down to. But, it’s up to you. We respect your position either way.

    I think it would be interesting to have Brad, Amanda and John in the studio to debate. Again, we would encourage Christians, Mormons and Wiccans to call in with questions and comments. We would want it to be a diplomatic discussion and debate, not a battle royale. We would want it to be a positive experience for everyone. Perhaps we could block out 2 hours for this one since we are advertising supported and we do have to cut away for those breaks.

    Your serve.

    Thanks,
    Moderator (not Stu)

  142. Amanda said

    Thanks once more, and if “debating” were my goal, I would surely take you up on it. Hannity and Colmes has its appeal, but not for the promoting of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

  143. Moderator (not Stu) said

    That’s fine, Amanda. We completely understand. However, perhaps “debate” is too strong a word. “Discuss” may be the term I should be using.

    Moderator (not Stu)

  144. John said

    IN the studio? Is not the studio in North Carolina?I live in the swamps of Florida and wouldn’t be able to make the drive any time soon.One day I will move to Tennessee, and then,maybe.Or did you mean via phone line, like last time?
    And if this were to happen,what exactly would the three of us “discuss”?And why me in particular? For a dash of”spice”?
    I’m keenly interested.

  145. Brad said

    “The purpose of my being asked on the show would not be to preach Christ (nor would Brad’s) but to try to prove that I worship a DIFFERENT CHRIST as well as Mormonism in general.” (Amanda)

    By showing that the Christ of Mormonism is NOT the Christ of the Bible, and explaining why, I would be inherently preaching Christ, Amanda – the correct Christ.

    “What a foolish goal and how foolish to even dignify it on my part. Everything I said, as has been shown here on the blog, would be denied, called a lie, or misguided, and the very best we could hope for is a stalemate. Period. I could refer listeners to the Church website and get better results.” (Amanda)

    Given your beliefs on hell and heaven, Amanda, I understand the lack of urgency and the need to not feel as if you need to share your beliefs. If Christians believed that way (including myself), I would also have no reason to share, b/c why would it matter? We’ll all make it to some level of Heaven anyway, right? But the Bible does not hold that opinion. The Bible says that many will not be in Heaven, but in hell, based on their beliefs, and that Christ could return at any time, so we must be ready, and we must tell others, so they can be ready. That is the urgency of which I speak, and why I do what I do. If there were a chance after death, though, and the chances of going to hell were slim, I can see why urgency wouldn’t be there.

    “Secondly, wherever Paul went, he was led by the Spirit. See Acts 16:6&7. He would not go where the Spirit forbade, and I try to do likewise. The Spirit does NOT condone this contentious adventure under THESE circumstances. It would be based upon argument (see 1 Cor.11:16 again) balanced along with the other obstacles John mentioned. Not a good use of the Lord’s time or mine, that’s for sure.” (Amanda)

    I don’t deny that the Holy Spirit led Paul, to go (or not go) to certain places. If this is your reasoning for not going on the show, that’s your choice. I do find it hard, however, to believe that the Spirit is OK with you coming HERE (to do the same arguing you find to not be a good use of the Lord’s time), but not OK with you coming on the show to do it.

    “Besides, it would take Brad more than one hour uninterrupted to understand ONE statement we or I made by the time he finished resisting it–as if that could even happen.(Throw in Acts 12:27-31 in reference to Brad’s complaining about the foundation of the Church. Very good reference.)” (Amanda)

    I understand your statements – I just don’t agree with them, as they are not supported by the whole of the Bible. Therefore, yes, I resist them. As to your Bible reference, no such passages exist.

    “Brad, save your time and don’t bother to tell me that I don’t get inspiration from the Spirit; it’s getting old hearing you refute that Mormons can exercise faith and receive answers to prayer, both before and/or after they join the Church. Isn’t it enough that you short sell the Holy Ghost, His existence and purpose, in practicality to begin with?” (Amanda)

    I don’t “short sell” the Holy Spirit at all – I just don’t believe that what you believe is the Holy Spirit’s guiding, is really of the Spirit, that’s all.

    “Although I haven’t seen evidence of it on this blog, I would even grant you that privilege and not stick my neck out before God to say that thus far, when it comes to Mormonism, you only take cues from Satan. (Nor could I deny it.)” (Amanda)

    Your viewpoint to hold, as is your right. I know better.

    “I have no apostolic calling as Paul did to address every person who might think I am a fool unless I meet them one on one and they are sincere in their questions.” (Amanda)

    I’ve already said I’d like to talk to you, and I do have sincere questions. How do you believe what you believe, when the evidence AGAINST Smith, his vision, the BOM, etc… is so overwhelmingly against it? That would probably be number 1. Of course, your answer would be that the Holy Spirit witnessed to you that it’s true. But, of course, since your beliefs and mine can’t both be correct concurrently, one of us is wrong.

    “Understand, though, that I could not represent what I know to be the Lord’s restored church on earth without a level playing court and a station and audience that at least pretended convincingly to be objective.” (Amanda)

    By “objective”, Amanda, what you’re really meaning is “not saying what they believe about Mormonism.” Everyone has opinions, and everyone is entitled to them, and entitled to share them with others. You have done so on here, as have I. No harm, no foul. All the show is doing is continuing to let you express the views you have on here, to a wider audience. Not much difference, other than you believe you will encounter more resistance to your incorrect beliefs. It’s to be expected, b/c people see through Mormonism to know that it’s not true, and they are willing to say so. Heck, if I take a line of logic that you like to use and turn it around: if Mormonism IS true beyond question, wouldn’t EVERYONE convert to it?

    “I will not be publicly responsible for anyone’s learning all the trash circulated about the Church by people like Brad.” (Amanda)

    You already are.

    “People like Brad have but one agenda–to prevent people from examining or tasting the fruit that God so readily and freely makes available.” (Amanda)

    No, that actually IS something I want people to do. My goal is to make sure they know that Mormonism doesn’t have that fruit, as you think it does. Big difference.

  146. John said

    I’m still awaiting you’re answers to my questions, Moderator.
    Topic of discussion?
    Why me?

  147. Amanda said

    “I understand your statements – I just don’t agree with them, as they are not supported by the whole of the Bible. Therefore, yes, I resist them. As to your Bible reference, no such passages exist.” (Brad)

    Of course, we disagree on this statement. As much as I read and love the Bible, I think I would notice any conflicts of doctrine. I must have been researching in Acts too, along with other writings of Paul since I will be teaching his words Sunday in Gospel Doctrine class. The scripture I thought I was referring to ended up being 1 Cor. 12:28-31. Put that with the two quotes in Ephesians 2:20 and 4:11), and it’s hard NOT to acknowledge that God’s church which He established included prophets and apostles in the foundation of the organization. Add Amos 3:7 to that, and you’ll have your sure biblical “proof” that God has always worked through prophets when He had something to say to mankind. I’m personally glad that He loves His children now as much as He did in different dispensations. It took awhile for Him to establish a country free enough for His Church to survive in its fulness once more and take the gospel out into all the world.

    My intention has never been to turn this whole “debate” into a “my church is better than your church” routine. That is missing the entire point. The Lord’s Church is the Church of all mankind, and we are simply here to share it. I do have a need to share my beliefs–and especially my beliefs about Heaven and Hell. You have either distorted what I said mightily, or I didn’t say it very clearly. The Lord has seen fit to fill in a few blanks about what hell is and how His reward system works. You’d better believe there is a hell. I would share with you from our Bible Dictionary what it says about hell, but I have shared things before and your responses are so predictable I needn’t trouble myself.

    My point is that, as you like to say, in response to every claim you have made about the LDS faith and its doctrine, “We know better!” Any active, serious Mormon knows better than you not only what we believe but that the truth is not in you regarding this faith you know so little about. Your lack of knowledge is self imposed, lacking authority, and yet you expect to be taken seriously. That only works with other like-minded people, not people who realize that education means taking in information or spiritually-minded people who believe that during and after the research, we ask of God (in all things).

    I cannot argue that you have the right to disagree with anything I say or anything you might accidentally read from a valid source. I don’t care if you agree or not. As I’ve said before, I DO care when you spread lies about my church, and I DO care when you say my beliefs are not supported by the Bible. I DO care that you do not acknowledge my or anyone’s right to study, pray and receive answers from God without your telling us we didn’t and we can’t because it could never be true. (According to your knowledge, maybe it can’t, but as has been established, your knowledge is extremely limited as is your experience with the Church.) Knowledge can be a powerful thing. A little bit of supposed knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

    Going on this blog to “check” you as you are spreading falsehoods about my religion is a bit different in my opinion than going on a radio show and giving you a platform to “perform.” I came on the blog only because I read what you had to say, and someone had to call attention to the errors of fact and judgment you were throwing out there. (I KNEW BETTER) My quarrel is with you, not with mainstream Christianity or traditional Christianity. My quarrel is not with the Bible or even your or anyone else’s interpretation of the Bible. (You have the right to interpret it any way you please.) I believe God will hold you accountable for only what you KNOW is right from your studies. I expect the same respect from you–whether I get it or not, and I judge your Christianity by the way you treat man’s agency. (It tells me how much you know about God.)

    Brad said: “I’ve already said I’d like to talk to you, and I do have sincere questions. How do you believe what you believe, when the evidence AGAINST Smith, his vision, the BOM, etc… is so overwhelmingly against it? That would probably be number 1. Of course, your answer would be that the Holy Spirit witnessed to you that it’s true. But, of course, since your beliefs and mine can’t both be correct concurrently, one of us is wrong.”

    This is easy to address: First, you cannot even say you’d like to talk “with me,” can you? Talk “to,” yes, but more like talk “AT” me; and “sincerity” is not a word I would use to describe even ONE of your blog posts, much less your questions. Sorry, not believable.

    As far as how do I believe what I believe considering the “evidence AGAINST Smith, his vision, the BOM, ect.?” This is one I would love to answer IF you were a rational, objective person really wanting to know. I would begin by saying that you’ve been looking at what purports to be evidence but is in fact bigotry and shoddy speculation, and at best guesswork, by people who could know better but don’t simply because they don’t have a mustard seed’s worth of faith that God would or could do such a thing in this day and age. (Yet they will say they believe in the Second Coming!) If we think something is not possible in God’s plan, it isn’t, for us. I would also say that there is far more evidence–unshakeable evidence, even that given by God, in SUPPORT of Smith, his vision, the BOM. I would tell you that the largest piece of tangible evidence is the Book of Mormon itself and the change it effects in people’s hearts and lives. I would tell you that the Church itself–its organization and operation–is an awesome work of wonderous evidence that has Jesus Christ’s fingerprints all over it, and lastly, I would tell you that seeing and feeling the “image of God” in people’s faces and hearts and hearing them bear testimonies that are, I believe, “recorded in heaven” with the words of angels (meaning, of the Spirit) once every month is another huge body of evidence. Then I might get to the archelogical stuff which barely interests me. The spiritual and intellectual evidence in ALL of the scriptures, Bible included are far more important and convincing to me.

    “My goal is to make sure they know that Mormonism doesn’t have that fruit, as you think it does.” (Brad)

    “They” can never know anything about Mormonism, pro or con, until they learn from “the horses mouth” and at the feet of the Master. I can only testify to them and you that it does–in every single way mentioned by Jesus Christ and his prophets and apostles in the Bible.

  148. Amanda said

    John,

    I think –and this is only my best guess–the reason they suggested you come on the air with Brad and I is that they see that I like you as an individual based upon what you have said in your posts, and they are thinking I might feel more comfortable if you were there too. (I could be wrong; perhaps the Moderator will respond to your question.) I had no idea you lived so far away myself! 🙂

    Also, it does have a sensational, crowd–pleasing ring to it–a “Christian,” a Wiccan, and a “Mormon!”

    Amanda

  149. John said

    That it does,Amanda.I considered the shock value of such a meeting.Or perhaps it just that they think, since we both belong to “non-Christian cults”, it would be a conveniant time to denounce to two of us at once.???
    This is why I was wondering about the topic of “discussion”,as it would have helped make things a little[Brad! Are you reading this?!Well go ahead.Nobody has to know that you’re not ignoring my replies,right? It’ll just be our little secret,heh,heh,heh!]more clear.You and Brad at least have a common ground to argue[I mean discuss]about,you’re theological views.But my form of Wicca is so alien compaired to Christianity that about the only thing we have in common is the “GOLDEN RULE”.I don’t know what reason I would have to even be there in a debate about Christian theology, unless it was simply to help you feel more at ease.Somehow.
    I personally think it would have been better for them to have picked someone like Anonymous instead of me because he’s[?]a Christian that “goes against the grain” with a lot of the replies here,and could have thus balanced things out in the discussion,perhaps.
    Time may tell.

  150. Amanda said

    Yes, John, on the surface, trying to “debunk” two systems in one “swell foop,” (fell swoop, of course) would have its appeal and consolidate the number of shows required to do it.
    AKB

    Fortunately for me, I do not need drama in my life. This blog has been filled with enough of that!

  151. John said

    Personally, I just looooooovvvee a little conflict every once in awhile.Even my Heaven has some conflict in it.It helps me to keep things in perspective.
    Blessed Be.

  152. Amanda said

    Blessed be…”the tie that binds.” Have you ever pondered THAT one? 🙂

    Take care,

    amanda

  153. John said

    The tie that binds?Hmmmmmmmmm.
    In Wicca, the phrase “Blessed Be” is a common greeting/farewell term.”Merry Meet” is also a common greeting among Wiccans.And if we want to be REALLY proper, we say “Merry Meet and Merry Part, and Merry Meet Again!”
    Yes,I’m a virtual treasure-trove of “useless” information.Ha.Ha.

  154. Moderator (not Stu) said

    We could get all 3 of you on the phone, if you wanted to do it that way. John – I suggested you, Amanda and Brad so we could get 3 different perspectives from 3 different belief systems. Perhaps the topic of discussion could revolve around some of the posts on the blog, such as the discussion concerning what Mormons and Christians believe and how those beliefs contrast and parallel with your Wiccan beliefs. I’m making this up as I type, but I believe it could be an interesting discussion.

  155. John said

    Indeed.
    Alright,I’ll bite.But it’s all up to Amanda now,and you already know how she feels.
    Thank you,Moderator.

  156. Anonymous said

    Amanda says, “NO, but I’ll listen if John and Brad go on.”

    “Blessed be” and “Merry Meet,” “Merry Part” or “Merry Meet Again”
    are very pleasant greetings that promote goodwill. Goodwill is something the world seems short on these days politically, and sometimes religiously.

    I appreciate that you do not condemn others, John, for having different beliefs than yourself. I think you realize intuitively that we are not called as judges but to promote unity and understanding–even through education.

    “Blessed be the tie that binds our hearts in Christian love” is an old Presybterian Christian song I love to sing. It promotes the oneness that we, as lovers of God and receivers of His Grace, should have, especially toward one another. I have found that most sincere Christians of all denominations, including the LDS faith, can have that oneness for each other no matter the denomination and be happy without condemning each other. (It’s called being a peacemaker too.) Paul said that we should have our hearts “knit together in love.” That pretty much describes the miraculous work of the Holy Ghost too.

    I commend you for being one of the peacemaker group, John. Rock on!

    Amanda

  157. John said

    Thank you Amanda,although in all honesty I can be rather war-like at times, depending on the circumstances.I always thought of myself as too aggressive,too predatory, to be a very good peacemaker.I am peaceful to strangers and those who please or interest me, but standoffish,apathetic,or wary to most others.
    “Only a peace between equals can last.Only a peace
    the very principle of which is equality and a
    common participation to a common benefit.”-Woodrow
    Wilson.
    But I give it a try, at least.
    Moderator once made Brad and I an offer to debate[On what topic I can only imagine.It would have most likely turned into something that I call the “My God is Better than You’re God Game”.Amusing, but pointless.]each other on the radio show, but Brad didn’t want to.

  158. Anonymous said

    To John: Woodrow Wilson hit on something profound there.

    The way I see it, “the truth shall make us free” also means free to reach out the hand of fellowship, unthreatened, and look for common ground as people who, by our own human nature, share certain common goals. We can learn from each other along the way, and if we humbly (that’s the key) ask God for assistance in that process, so much the better. Don’t get me wrong though–politically, I’m a Reagonite who believes in “peace through strength” as a reality of the human condition and the existence of evil in the world; but if I am strong within myself spiritually, and put on “the armor of Christ,” another’s belief system shouldn’t make me feel threatened and put up an impenetrable wall between us. It is only when those beliefs threaten life and limb, personal freedoms, and agency that I see fighting and verbal attacks as necessary. Remember Dobson’s book on the “battle for the minds of our children” going on in public school? There is a battle for a mindset against “Mormons” going on–here at least, and that’s why I got involved.

    I remind myself that some good people really do think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints practices deception and “lures” people in, and that’s why they act and talk so disrespectfully, not checking their facts with reality. The convenience of “otherwise–Christian literature” precludes learning in a rational, objective way. The valiant appeal of the “I’ll-save-the-world-from-‘Mormonism'” factor kicks in, and paranoia inspires a rewriting of who “Mormons” really are–not terribly unlike Hitler’s description and labeling of the Jews which made genocide seem justifiable. It’s the same spirit of manipulation through fear at work, and it’s not a pretty one. Some might call that a “victim mentality on my part;” others might call it learning from history so that history doesn’t repeat itself.

    I didn’t mean to go on like this, but as Brad and his friends would say,…”blah, blah, blah.” It’s the gift of gab (one that he also has, but women have about 3,000 more words to share a day than men!), and one that should be kept under check! 🙂

    Have a great week!

  159. Anonymous said

    You may have recognized that the above post #158 was from me, Amanda.

  160. John said

    Yes,I did.Thank you, and have a good week yourself Amanda.It,s work,work,work out here in the swamp,what with getting ready for the holidays and Winter and all. Blessed Be.

  161. Brad said

    “Of course, we disagree on this statement. As much as I read and love the Bible, I think I would notice any conflicts of doctrine.” (Amanda)

    Not necessarily, only if YOU perceived them as a conflict. If you justified your way around them, you wouldn’t think anything of it.

    “I must have been researching in Acts too, along with other writings of Paul since I will be teaching his words Sunday in Gospel Doctrine class. The scripture I thought I was referring to ended up being 1 Cor. 12:28-31. Put that with the two quotes in Ephesians 2:20 and 4:11), and it’s hard NOT to acknowledge that God’s church which He established included prophets and apostles in the foundation of the organization. Add Amos 3:7 to that, and you’ll have your sure biblical “proof” that God has always worked through prophets when He had something to say to mankind.” (Amanda)

    I don’t discount that prophets and/or apostles could be a part of the church, but the foundation is Christ. Again, you shouldn’t make too much of them. Nor do I discount that God has worked through prophets when He had something to “say”; I just dispute that any of the Mormons, past or present, are prophets.

    “I’m personally glad that He loves His children now as much as He did in different dispensations. It took awhile for Him to establish a country free enough for His Church to survive in its fulness once more and take the gospel out into all the world.” (Amanda)

    Pure conjecture, based on your opinion of your church.

    “I do have a need to share my beliefs–and especially my beliefs about Heaven and Hell. You have either distorted what I said mightily, or I didn’t say it very clearly.” (Amanda)

    I have distorted nothing of what you said. I have disagreed wholeheartedly with it, and will continue to do so, as you are wrong in your beliefs.

    “I would share with you from our Bible Dictionary what it says about hell, but I have shared things before and your responses are so predictable I needn’t trouble myself.” (Amanda)

    That’s b/c I don’t believe what you interpret hell to be.

    “My point is that, as you like to say, in response to every claim you have made about the LDS faith and its doctrine, “We know better!” Any active, serious Mormon knows better than you not only what we believe but that the truth is not in you regarding this faith you know so little about. Your lack of knowledge is self imposed, lacking authority, and yet you expect to be taken seriously. That only works with other like-minded people, not people who realize that education means taking in information or spiritually-minded people who believe that during and after the research, we ask of God (in all things).” (Amanda)

    Amanda, by the time you realize how wrong you are, it will be too late. For that you have been warned, and for that I am truly sorry for you.

    “I cannot argue that you have the right to disagree with anything I say or anything you might accidentally read from a valid source. I don’t care if you agree or not. As I’ve said before, I DO care when you spread lies about my church, and I DO care when you say my beliefs are not supported by the Bible. I DO care that you do not acknowledge my or anyone’s right to study, pray and receive answers from God without your telling us we didn’t and we can’t because it could never be true. (According to your knowledge, maybe it can’t, but as has been established, your knowledge is extremely limited as is your experience with the Church.) Knowledge can be a powerful thing. A little bit of supposed knowledge can be a dangerous thing.” (Amanda)

    I support everyone’s right to search. I don’t buy that Mormons have “received” anything except a misleading feeling that their church is right, not for a second. B/c it is all based on the word of one man who started it, who himself has been proven to be a liar and a fraud. It still amazes me that people believe it so deeply, when the evidence is right there for them to see.

    “Going on this blog to “check” you as you are spreading falsehoods about my religion is a bit different in my opinion than going on a radio show and giving you a platform to “perform.” (Amanda)

    I knew you’d justify it somehow. You always do.

    “I came on the blog only because I read what you had to say, and someone had to call attention to the errors of fact and judgment you were throwing out there. (I KNEW BETTER) My quarrel is with you, not with mainstream Christianity or traditional Christianity. My quarrel is not with the Bible or even your or anyone else’s interpretation of the Bible. (You have the right to interpret it any way you please.) I believe God will hold you accountable for only what you KNOW is right from your studies. I expect the same respect from you–whether I get it or not, and I judge your Christianity by the way you treat man’s agency. (It tells me how much you know about God.)” (Amanda)

    You’re welcome to think what you want. I’ve told you what I know is true from the Bible, which is opposite of what you believe.

    “This is easy to address: First, you cannot even say you’d like to talk “with me,” can you? Talk “to,” yes, but more like talk “AT” me; and “sincerity” is not a word I would use to describe even ONE of your blog posts, much less your questions. Sorry, not believable.” (Amanda)

    Your right to have that opinion.

    “As far as how do I believe what I believe considering the “evidence AGAINST Smith, his vision, the BOM, ect.?” This is one I would love to answer IF you were a rational, objective person really wanting to know.” (Amanda)

    Let the excuses begin…

    “I would begin by saying that you’ve been looking at what purports to be evidence but is in fact bigotry and shoddy speculation, and at best guesswork, by people who could know better but don’t simply because they don’t have a mustard seed’s worth of faith that God would or could do such a thing in this day and age. (Yet they will say they believe in the Second Coming!)” (Amanda)

    Yep, it’s the old “all the antis are idiots who just don’t understand the facts” argument. Boy, if I had a nickel…

    “I would also say that there is far more evidence–unshakeable evidence, even that given by God, in SUPPORT of Smith, his vision, the BOM.” (Amanda)

    Well, please share it with the rest of the civilized world, since we’re all waiting for this certain evidence that nobody has seemed to have found yet. Please show us how “unshakeable” it really is…

    “I would tell you that the largest piece of tangible evidence is the Book of Mormon itself and the change it effects in people’s hearts and lives.” (Amanda)

    Yep, heard this one before too, folks. The best evidence of their beliefs, is the book their beliefs are based upon. That’s nice and circular.

    “I would tell you that the Church itself–its organization and operation–is an awesome work of wonderous evidence that has Jesus Christ’s fingerprints all over it” (Amanda)

    Another one – more evidence is the church, which is based upon the beliefs and the book. Circle number 2…

    “…and lastly, I would tell you that seeing and feeling the “image of God” in people’s faces and hearts and hearing them bear testimonies that are, I believe, “recorded in heaven” with the words of angels (meaning, of the Spirit) once every month is another huge body of evidence.” (Amanda)

    Oh yes, boy oh boy, nothing is quite so tangible as feeling God in people’s faces, right? Circle number 3…

    “Then I might get to the archelogical stuff which barely interests me. The spiritual and intellectual evidence in ALL of the scriptures, Bible included are far more important and convincing to me.” (Amanda)

    Sure they are, b/c all the other “tangible” stuff, completely debunks Mormonism. If I were a Mormon, I’d be in denial about…er, I mean, “ignore” it too.

    ““They” can never know anything about Mormonism, pro or con, until they learn from “the horses mouth” and at the feet of the Master. I can only testify to them and you that it does–in every single way mentioned by Jesus Christ and his prophets and apostles in the Bible.” (Amanda)

    Lies and deceipt, straight from the pits of hell, Amanda. That’s it.

  162. John said

    “Faith is to believe what you do not see;the reward for this faith is to see what you believe.”-Saint Augustine,Sermons

    Aren’t you tired of reinforcing those walls,Brad? No,of course not.
    They make people like you feel “safe”.
    I think the two of you are “feeding” off each other.A bitter/sweet snack of vanity and criticism.

  163. Brad said

    “It promotes the oneness that we, as lovers of God and receivers of His Grace, should have, especially toward one another. I have found that most sincere Christians of all denominations, including the LDS faith, can have that oneness for each other no matter the denomination and be happy without condemning each other. (It’s called being a peacemaker too.) Paul said that we should have our hearts “knit together in love.” That pretty much describes the miraculous work of the Holy Ghost too.” (Amanda)

    I agree – those of us who are truly Christians, and have Jesus Christ of the Bible living as Lord and Savior in their hearts, DO have the “tie that binds”, in that they are part of a Christian fellowship. However, there is no fellowship if you do not have that tie. And Mormonism and Christianity DOES NOT have that tie, b/c Mormonism believes in a different Jesus than Christianity. I can’t say we’re equal, and can’t say we have oneness, b/c we don’t. Shame on any Christian denomination (or any Christian, for that matter), that says we are. To say that is to not truly understand what Mormons believe, vs. what Christians believe.

  164. Anonymous said

    We’ve already “agreed to disagree,” Brad. Nothing new will be said on this blog, so why respond?

    No one has said on this blog that all religions are “equal”; I have said that we can be equal in our acknowledgment of all things human which we share. One of those “things” is a heart. There is also the ability to honor another’s agency without name calling playing “The Judge.”

  165. Anonymous said

    Ravi Zacharias says, “How do you present the sweet savor of the person of Christ, when the method you use cuts them down to the knees? How do you present the love of God if your method is not loving? Conviction that is not ungirded by love, makes the possessor of that conviction obnoxious and the dogma possessed becomes repulsive.”

  166. ADB said

    Well put anonymous. This one should be put to rest. Nothing is being gained here.

  167. Amanda said

    I love the Zacharias quote– although there is no way a Brad could turn me against the Biblical message of the Jesus Christ he claims to worship. It’s particularly sad when we use such methods not realizing how much we really have in common, a discussion those methods prevent ever taking place. If we who consider ourselves “Christians” could stick to the dictionary definition of what we profess to be, and practice the first two great commandments that Jesus espoused, there would be no debates such as the one that has taken place here.

    I agree with ADB as well and will sign off now.

  168. Brad said

    While I respect RZ and understand what he is saying – he isn’t talking with you, I am.

    With respect to religion, we don’t have anything in common, Amanda, b/c our beliefs are totally different. I know you (and other Mormons) always want to emphasize the commonality of your beliefs with Christians, it simply isn’t so.

    It really doesn’t matter what the dictionary defines “Christian” to be, it matters what the Bible says on the subject of salvation and following Christ. And that, Amanda, is where you have things wrong, as you don’t adhere to what the Bible teaches about Christ or salvation, unfortunately. Practicing the 2 commandments given by Christ doesn’t in any way mean we must have a blanket affirmation of what everyone else believes. Not by a long shot.

    The debate such as we’ve been having on here is needed, if only to show others that there are real differences between Christianity and Mormonism, and that we don’t follow the same Christ.

  169. Amanda said

    TO ANYONE OTHER THAN BRAD:

    I have signed off talking to Brad and even off of this public reading place on this topic. Since there has been precious little discussion between Brad and I about our Savior, Jesus Christ, which is the most important issue to any true Christian, I want to leave you with this opportunity:

    Please list anything you know of that the Bible actually SAYS about Christ that you strongly feel “MORMONS” do NOT believe, along with scripture and verse, and I will be happy to address it in a respectful, polite, two-way conversation, using only valid church resources (to establish our beliefs) and the Bible.

    I can imagine only 3 things you might say that we believe about Him (and you do not)that come from later-day revelation, but let’s stick to what the Bible actually teaches about Jesus. Please send this and any other inquiries you might have to the following email address: ackbunton@hotmail.com. Railing accusations will not be addressed. Only sincere individuals need respond.

    I would appreciate the opportunity to speak about what our actual beliefs are instead of what Brad decided long ago our beiefs to be.

  170. Brad said

    “I have signed off talking to Brad and even off of this public reading place on this topic.” (Amanda)

    To those of you who may be reading this blog for the first time – this is about the 6th time she has said this. She keeps coming back. If she were REALLY done, she wouldn’t have continued posting after making that statement. But she always does.

    “Since there has been precious little discussion between Brad and I about our Savior, Jesus Christ, which is the most important issue to any true Christian, I want to leave you with this opportunity:” (Amanda)

    There’s been PLENTY of discussion concerning Christ, His nature, His role in salvation, etc… PLENTY. It’s not the discussion Amanda wishes to have taken place, but it has nonetheless happened. Onward…

    “Please list anything you know of that the Bible actually SAYS about Christ that you strongly feel “MORMONS” do NOT believe, along with scripture and verse, and I will be happy to address it in a respectful, polite, two-way conversation, using only valid church resources (to establish our beliefs) and the Bible.” (Amanda)

    A few important things to point out, readers. I have been discussing the differences between Mormonism and Christianity (including the differences on Christ) for many months now, not just a few messages back and forth, but probably one of the longest-running subjects on this blog. I have, numerous times, shown the differences to her, given her Bible references to back up the point(s), and shown the clear correct interpretation based on text and context. What Amanda says she will do above, is not what will really happen. What she will do is grossly misinterpret Scripture to back up the Mormon viewpoint, and then use “valid church resources” (i.e. the BOM, POGP, D&C, etc…) to also back up her point. Never mind that Christians don’t recognize the authenticity of Mormon “resources.” Never mind that they contradict the Bible in key areas (something I’ve also pointed out to her, many times. And if you really continue to press the point with her, she will turn to labeling you an “anti”, the common word that Mormons use for those of us who know better than to believe their sham religion, to make it seem as if it’s our life mission to prove them wrong. But give her a chance – maybe the months of history of doing what I wrote above will be different with you. I doubt it, but you can try.

    “I can imagine only 3 things you might say that we believe about Him (and you do not)that come from later-day revelation, but let’s stick to what the Bible actually teaches about Jesus.” (Amanda)

    I agree, and always have – “let’s stick to what the Bible actually teaches about Jesus.” But you don’t – you insert your misguided opinions from the bent of Mormonism, misinterpret the Bible, add in the incorrect writings from Mormon resources, all to show what you believe about Jesus. Doesn’t really sound like sticking to the Bible, to me, readers.

    “Please send this and any other inquiries you might have to the following email address: ackbunton@hotmail.com. Railing accusations will not be addressed. Only sincere individuals need respond.” (Amanda)

    Readers, do what you want. Amanda wishes you to write her privately, so she can write and respond to you out of the public spotlight, where nobody can refute what she is saying. If you do that, you better know your theology and why you believe it, and be able to back it up. In private email, she can tell you whatever she wants, package it as if it’s truth with Bible verses and Mormon resources, and try to sell it to you. If you’re TRULY interested, ask the question on here, and let’s see her answer on here, not in private. Make sure her answer REALLY stands up to the test of Scripture, for all the world to see.

    “I would appreciate the opportunity to speak about what our actual beliefs are instead of what Brad decided long ago our beiefs to be.” (Amanda)

    You have spoken as to what your beliefs are, over the past few months, and also to what Mormon beliefs are, as well. I didn’t decide what your beliefs are (individually or Mormons as a group); I simply stated what I know Mormons believe. How do I know what Mormons believe? The Holy Spirit has confirmed to me that I am right, and that what I have said about them is true.

  171. Daniel said

    Hi Brad,

    Remember me? I was reading during the first blog between you and Amanda, and it was several different topics about Mormons that she “signed” off on. New show, new topic. New opportunity, from her end.

    I’m not sure how you sleep at night, my friend, and your last comment is between you and God.(It sounds like you’re tryinng to sound like a Mormon there since it’s the first time you’ve mentioned knowing anything by the Holy Ghost.)

    I leave you both, you and Amanda, with a quote from Timothy 2:23-26

    “But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

    And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gently unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

    In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the thuth; And that tahey may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”

    Do not be hasty to assume that it is always the Mormon who needs to repent, Brad. All of your questions put to them seem “foolish” and “unlearned” to me since I have had Mormon neighbors.

  172. Anonymous said

    About Brad’s last post. As a Christian, I would say to him “Almost thou persuadest me to be a Mormon.”

  173. Brad said

    Daniel,

    If you don’t think the Mormons truly need to repent and recognize the Jesus of the Bible as Lord, rather than the Jesus they believe in, then you ought to continue to study exactly what it is they believe.

    I’m really not concerned about who your neighbors are. The questions I’ve asked of Amanda (or any Mormon) are based in Scriptural beliefs, and show that her Mormon beliefs do not follow the Bible. If you believe different, or find the discussion unprofitable, please feel free to not join in. I didn’t ask, or force, anyone to read or join in. Only those who wish to read.

  174. Brad said

    As to my last statement in #170, yes, it was designed to sound that way. Sounds odd, doesn’t it? But that’s exactly what Mormons hold as the basis for what they believe, the “witness” of the Holy Spirit. Problem is, the “witness” they’re getting doesn’t align with the Bible, and is therefore false. Just wanted to show how ridiculous of a statement it truly is, so people can truly recognize how wrong their beliefs are.

    Be very careful.

  175. Anonymous said

    Whatever….

  176. ADB said

    Brad,

    I respect how stridently you have defended orthodox Christian faith here, but think you should consider your tone. If you had two young men in neatly pressed dress shirts come to your door and ask to speak with you about Jesus Christ, and it is clear that they are Mormons, which would be the most Christian response? A) to tell them that they are going straight to Hell without Passing Go, or B) to ask them if you can get them something to drink and sit down with them about Jesus Christ.

  177. Anonymous said

    Matt.12:31-36

    “…but the blasphemy against the Holy ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit….for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh…

    every idle word that mena shall speak, they shall give account therof in the day of judgment.”

  178. John said

    I wonder……are you still praying for Amanda’s soul,Brad? Mine?
    Or was that a one-time shot, over and done with kinda thing?
    Or are there soooooo many of us that your prayer includes a phrase like “…and alllllllllllll those sinners…” in it?

    {O}\ /{O}
    U
    VvvvvvV

  179. Brad said

    “I respect how stridently you have defended orthodox Christian faith here, but think you should consider your tone. If you had two young men in neatly pressed dress shirts come to your door and ask to speak with you about Jesus Christ, and it is clear that they are Mormons, which would be the most Christian response? A) to tell them that they are going straight to Hell without Passing Go, or B) to ask them if you can get them something to drink and sit down with them about Jesus Christ.” (ADB)

    ADB, I handle each situation differently. Don’t know if you’ve been around from the beginning of my conversations with Amanda or not, but these have been going on for quite a while now. She is not a rookie missionary going door-to-door, she came willingly on these blogs. I have talked with Amanda, at length, about numerous different issues, including Christ. I completely disagree not only with her take on these issues, but with the general Mormon consensus on them, as well. And I hope that that has been made very plain and clear, b/c it was meant to be. I have volunteered to go on air with her, and I have told her that I would like to meet her to discuss in person. How many of these have happened, ADB? None – but not b/c I didn’t offer, but b/c Amanda didn’t accept, for whatever reason she gives.

    You, of course, are free to agree or disagree with what is said or how it is said – that is your right, which I defend, as I would defend Amanda’s right to say what she believes. What I have done is to call into question what she believes, b/c according to what the Bible teaches, it is flat wrong, and it is leading her down a path she doesn’t think she’s on, and doesn’t wish to go. This has been made expressly clear to her. The gospel is offensive by nature, to those who don’t believe it.

  180. ADB said

    Brad,
    Thanks for the reply. I certainly knew of the running debate you were having, and had read some of the posts, but apparently had not read everything. I haven’t been called upon by missionaries- Mormons, but also Jehovah’s Witnesses in quite some time, but have been under conviction that the times I have encountered them I may not have been hospitable. So I guess next time someone comes to the door I’ll get them a drink sit on the front porch and talk some theology with them. I doubt that conversation will convert anyone, but hopefully I can- by charity, hospitality, and the plain truth plant a few questions/doubts.

  181. Brad said

    ADB,

    I’ve done that, with Mormons before, and most recently with JW’s. I always welcome the opportunity to talk with them – they’re already wanting to discuss it, so I just piggy-back on that opportunity (it’s especially interesting to see the look on their faces when I pull out my own version of the NWT of the Bible, and we go through the questions/answers in that version – they usually assume people don’t have a copy of that).

    Will it convert them? Usually not, at least not on the spot, and maybe never. But that’s not my responsibility – that’s the Holy Spirit’s job. My responsibility is to make the truth known. And when Mormons, who are deeply espoused to what they believe is truth, are told that what they believe is not true, given factual evidence for that from Scripture, presented with historical and archaeological and linguistic evidence against their faith, and STILL choose to not believe, that is spiritual stubborness that is spoken of in Scripture. I feel sorry for them, but at the end of the day, I have to be sure that I have laid out the plan of salvation clearly.

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