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University of Destruction

Posted by truthtalklive on September 12, 2007

Can you go to college without abandoning your Christianity? Author David Wheaton www.davidwheaton.com talks about his book “University of Destruction- Your Game Plan for Spiritual Victory on Campus”.

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46 Responses to “University of Destruction”

  1. Stu,

    Enjoyed being on TruthTalkLive today discussing “University of Destruction” and how Christian students can be “Overcomers”.

    Remember, to be an Overomer, you must know the scouting report (“Pillars of Peril”) and execute the fundamental game plan (raise your “spiritual GPA”). You can get a signed and personalized copy (for the best price) of University of Destruction at my website, davidwheaton.com.

    His best and grace to you. Be an Overcomer in college!

    David Wheaton

  2. Tarheel Mama said

    While listening to the first 20 minutes of the show today I began to feel defeated. But as I listened (and I couldn’t finish due to dinner with family) I realized that it is perhaps a question of when and how to pursue a degree if at all. This will be a book for our shelves. Thank you for writing it and being on the show.

  3. kandace said

    To Tarheel Mama,
    Please don’t feel defeated. Fall in love with Jesus and prepare yourself for the battle. The battle is the Lord’s and is winnable!

    To truthtalklive,
    You should get with Josh McDowell since you both have similar ideas. God bless you in your ministry for His honor and glory.

  4. Anonymous said

    A former tennis pro lecturing our kids on the sciences? No sale.

  5. Jeff said

    Anonymous,

    What is there about being a former tennis player that disqualifies one from being able to prepare kids for the challenges they will face in college? One does not have to have a string of degrees after his name to be well informed in the area of apologetics. It seems that you are assuming that just because he was a professional tennis player he is not well informed. You would do better to show where he is wrong in his argumentation. Otherwise, statements like the one you made just make you look bad.

  6. Anonymous said

    OK, you’re right. I apologize to the former tennis pro.

    But advising our kids to attend schools that teach Creationism instead of science? Still no sale.

    Keep teaching religion and science, but let’s not confuse the two.

  7. Jeff said

    Again, a bald assertion with no argumentation to support it. You really must stop this if you want to be taken seriously. From my perspective you have committed the falacy of the false alternative by pitting creationism against science. You sound like an athiest (not an accusation, just an observation).

    In my opinion, the individual facts we encounter only make sense in light of a Creator. Certainly, blind chance could never bring forth such complexity (design). Both Christians and non-Christians can engage in science. Admittedly, both have their own presuppositions, but this does not disqualify either from examining the creation and coming to certain conclusions based on the evidence. Whether or not God exists cannot be conclusively proven by either side – certainly not by experimentation, the scientific method. When rightly viewed I believe that creation gives inescapably clear evidence of God’s existence and power (see Romans 1:18-23). To be rational about the subject, one amust admit that all of the complexity (design) we experience screams that there is a Creator (Ps. 19). It is highly irrational to believe that it all came about by “chance,” which in not even a thing – only a statement of probability. Creation Science deserves a hearing just as much as does the blind faith of evolutionary THEORY.

  8. John said

    But theories can be supported by evidence. And there’s a hell of a lot of it.I personally do not rule out the possibility of creator deities, but if the evolutionary sciences are a farce, one can’t help but wonder as to why sooooooooooooooooo many things were created to appear as if they had evolved.

  9. Moderator (not Stu) said

    John,

    It is great to have vigorous debate on these issues, but we would appreciate it if you wouldn’t use the “H” word in this fashion. We want this forum clean and free from any cursing or obscenities. Hell is a place. Not an adjective. This applies to everyone on this blog. We are not picking on anyone. Please understand that.

    Thank you,
    Moderator (not Stu)

  10. Anonymous said

    Wasn’t “Creation Science” an invention of fundamentalists to get the Bible back in the public schools? Stu and his guest blithely commenting that “evolution” is easily disproved is the epitome of pretentiousness. If it were the case then every Biology textbook in the USA would have the Creation Chapter. This is why universities have Religion departments and Science departments. Noah’s Ark is in the Religion department. Natural History is in the Science department.

    We can worship the false god of Creation Science, or we can admit that faith in God does not come from a science book.

  11. Jeff said

    OK Anonymous, I tried. You seem to just want to stir things up so I won’t take you seriously from now on.

    John, Personally I don’t see that there are soooooooo many things that appear to have evolved. I think that personal interpretation of evidence is driven by one’s presuppositions. Check out the Scriptures quoted above for my perspective. Also, read John 3:19-21. It is not that there is not enough light. The problem is that men reject the light because they desire to live independent of God’s rule in their lives. I can relate because I used to think the same way before God, by His grace, changed my heart (mind).

  12. Anonymous said

    Jeff, right back atcha!

  13. Jeff said

    Anonymous,

    Another chance. Define “science,” and show with evidence why it is scientific to present evidence for atheistic evolution and interpret facts according to atheistic presuppositions, but it is not scientific to present evidence for a Creator. It seems to me that if one was truly unbiased, he would present the best case for both options and leave it to the students to decide which case is supported by the facts. In my opinion, it takes much more faith to believe that all of the order and complexity we see around us happened by blind chance. I am open to your reasoning. It is the assertions that are absent any proof that get under my skin.

    no hard feelings.

  14. Anonymous said

    Jeff, I didn’t assert any of that. I do say that Creationism and Intelligent Design, as put forth by Stu and his host is not real science. It is the fundamentalist Christian attempt to shoehorn the Bible into science classes. Anyone familiar with the topic knows that. I refer you to the recent attempts in Kansas to incorporate Creationism into the statewide curriculum for an example.

    I do say that public schools should not endorse one religious belief over another, and that Creationism (as put forth here) is Christianity in disguise and should be taught in religion classes not science classes.

    Your side infers that there is a conspiracy amongst scientists and university science departments to exclude Creationism from the classroom. If the evidence is there then someone will submit a theory that will shake the foundations of the scientific world. Why hasn’t this happened? Is it secular humanists conspiring against Biblical Truth, or is it the consensus of the scientific community across the globe that keeps fundamentalist Christian “science” out of the science books?

    “Doubt is an uncomfortable condition, but certainty is absurd.” – (who said that? I forget.)

    I am a Christian. I am not a fundamentalist. That’s my main argument here. I argue against fundamentalism as put forth by Stu and his guests because I believe it misrepresents Christianity.

    later,
    A. Nonymous

  15. Jeff said

    Anonymous,

    Thanks for the reply. I think that it is possible to put forth the evidence for creation without promoting religion. I do not think that secular schools should be forced to promote Christianity, nor do I think they should hold back alternative explanations as to the origin of the universe. It seems to me that evolutionary theorists are afraid of the challenge, knowing that some students, when presented with solid evidence, would freely choose to adopt an intelligent design position. I’m not for forcing things either way. But I am for giving students a well reasoned choice on the matter. Simply teach the best evidence for both sides and let the chips fall where they may. Otherwise, you are being narrow minded and refusing to consider all the possibilities available to explain the amazing universe in which we live, and, in my opinion, you are providing a second rate education.

    You say that you are a Christian and not a fundamentalist. I know what I think when I hear those terms, but could you please explain what you mean by them. Are you rejecting legalism or the cardinal doctrines of the faith? I’m just trying to get a grip on where you are coming from.

    thanks

  16. ADB said

    It seems that the issue of higher education has evolved into a discussion of creation vs. evolution. To address the first, it is natural that at some point along the way kids will question and explore what they believe and why. Most of the time they will come back. Major universities don’t exist to turn out brain-washed atheists, but at the same time we can’t expect them (and shouldn’t want them) to be teaching the faith. Kids that are well rounded, who have a genuine love for the Lord will be alright. The trouble with the who creation vs. evolution debate is what is meant by creation. For me creation means that we are not here by accident. God created everything that ever was or will be. For some, with whom I vehemently disagree however, there can be only two schools of thought regarding our origins, complete Darwinism and young-earth six day creation. If by creation- science one means young earth creation, I am skeptical about it being taught in public institutions. This being said, even if the only thing presented is evolution, there should be some acknowledgement that it is “theory,” and that there are some pretty big holes in the fossil record. Much care needs to be taken in defining what are the core beliefs that are not negotiable. There is always a danger in making Christianity merely about intellectually agreeing to a laundry list of doctrinal tenets, and not about a true relationship with Jesus Christ.

  17. Anonymous said

    I understand where you guys are coming from, and I think that I explained myself well enough. I don’t take the Creation stories in the Bible literally. I am fond of listening to Stu present the fundamentalist perspective on his radio shows. I am also fond of taking exception to his perspective of “truth” here on this blog.

    I took exception this time to Stu and his guest remarking that “evolution” is “so easy’ to refute (and to the guest’s transparent salesmanship).

    I say OK, if it’s that easy to refute where is the widely accepted Theory of Creation that rewrites virtually every text book in every science department in the world?

    The fundamentalist can only then refer to the Bible.

    That’s actually cool with me, but it isn’t what should be taught in science class. And I say that young people can figure it out, just like you and I can. Some will favor religion, some science.

    I guess I am right in the middle. I say the universe was created. Did species evolve? Science says so. Fundamentalists say no. I am not a fundamentalist.

  18. Jeff said

    Anonymous,

    Thanks for the clarification.

    I do believe the Bible is true. I admit that. But the statement that fundamentalists (depending on what you mean by that) can only point to the Bible illustrates the misunderstanding. It is quite possible to have a rational conversation about evidence for creation without even referring to the Bible. In fact, when looking at something as complex as the human eye, it makes much more sense to understand that it was created by an intelligent designer than to say that it somehow evolved by chance. Or, take DNA for example. It seems incredible to me to believe that such obvious evidence for design, and therefore, a designer, came about by random chance combinations.

    I agree with you that the universe was created. I guess where we differ is that I believe that God not only created the universe, but that he also created everything else, including you and me. We were created for His glory, and we will never know deep seated joy and contentment apart from fulfilling our purpose – glorifying and enjoying our great, sovereign, creator. And this can only be done by trusting and living for His only Son, the Savior of the World, the Lord Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory! Amen

  19. Anonymous said

    “But the statement that fundamentalists (depending on what you mean by that) can only point to the Bible illustrates the misunderstanding.” – Jeff

    Perhaps it is you who has the misunderstanding then? I refer to Creationism as put forth by Stu on his radio show and other more well known advocates elsewhere. The Genesis account of Creation.
    Creation in the abstract we may agree about. But let’s not bore everyone.

    “In fact, when looking at something as complex as the human eye, it makes much more sense to understand that it was created by an intelligent designer than to say that it somehow evolved by chance.” – Jeff

    Nevertheless, the scientific community is virtually unanimous in disagreeing with you.

    Where is the Theory of Creation? Which independent authorities have reviewed it? (Ken Ham?) Are they writing new chapters for the science books? Do Einstein, Galileo, Copernicus, DaVinci, Newton have a new member to join their elite group of scientific thinkers in history?

    No. The Bible is where we get Creationism.

    I think we’ve run everyone else off, so I’ll quit now. You can have the last word for my part.

    P.S. I, too, have faith in Jesus, and that God created the universe and everything in it. But not because of what I learned in science classes.

  20. Jeff said

    OK, we’ll end this. Thanks for the discussion.

    There are thousands of scientists in the US who believe in creation instead of evolution. I go to church with some of them. Some are young earth and others are old earth. I think that progress is being made and I predict that you will see the day come when evolution is not the only theory taught in the schools.

    “No. The Bible is where we get Creationism.” – Anonymous

    Not entirely true. The Bible assumes the existence of God the creator. It never tries to prove that God exists. In fact, the Bible points outside of itself for proof that God is, and that He created everything. Permit me a couple of quotes:

    Psalm 19:1-3
    [1] “The heavens declare the glory of God,
    and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
    [2] Day to day pours out speech,
    and night to night reveals knowledge.
    [3] There is no speech, nor are there words,
    whose voice is not heard.”

    Romans 1:19-20
    “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. [20] For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.”

    Notice, the creation itself is the proof that the Creator exists, and the evidence is so clear that men are left without excuse for rejecting it. So, it is possible to study the creation alone and come to an understanding that God the Creator exists, without ever cracking open a Bible.

    The crowning proof that the Bible is true and that Jesus is who He said He was is the resurrection.

    Acts 17:30-31
    “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, [31] because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

    May God be glorified in our thinking about Him!

    Romans 11:33-36
    Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
    [34] “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
    or who has been his counselor?”
    [35] “Or who has given a gift to him
    that he might be repaid?”
    [36] For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

    Thanks for the last word.

  21. Jeff said

    http://christiananswers.net/creation/

  22. Anonymous said

    http://www.talkorigins.org/

  23. anonymous said

    I’m confused by this creation thing. I have never studied the Bible much, but why do people talk about a six day creation from Genesis 1 when Genesis 2 says God created everything in one day. We are supposed to take the first part of Genesis literally I’ve heard, but these two contradict each other. Can someone help?

  24. stu said

    A great question!
    Genesis 2 is simply a commentary on Genesis 1, not a contradiction—-and it gives us a closer glimpse into His creation of Man. Genesis 2:4 is a restatment of Gen 1:1, not a contradiction. Many skeptics make Gen 1 and 2 to look like they are 2 different accounts that contadict, but a simple reading and study shows that chapter 2 doesn’t give a different account or time table, but simply deeper look into Day 6 and God’s most prized creation…man—also see Psalm 8

    anyone else have any thoughts?

  25. Rene said

    Romans 1:20 as Jeff stated explains it all. How can anyone look at a butterfly, a giraffe, a zebra, a panda, a redwood tree, an octopus, a man and believe that we evolved from a single organism? Faith in God and His creation is very easy when you see all the creatures He created and how different we are from each other.
    By the way, David Wheaton came to Wilmington after his visit with Mr. Epperson and gave an outstanding presentation of his faith journey and the Gospel. I wish you could have been there.

  26. Anonymous said

    “How can anyone look at a butterfly, a giraffe, a zebra, a panda, a redwood tree, an octopus, a man and believe that we evolved from a single organism?” – Rene

    Because that is the best scientific explanation. It doesn’t infringe on my Christian belief.

    But I wonder how anyone can believe that the Bible creation stories are scientifically verifiable.

  27. John the Witch said

    For what it’s worth, I know of some Christians [that believe in the possibility of the evolutionary sciences] that view the story in Genesis of mans creation “out of the dust”, as a metaphor for evolution, but put in terms that the Christian God thought early mankind would be able to understand.I believe the term for this is “theistic evolution”, and many people including myself accept this view as it blends religious faith and the evolutionary sciences very well.There is no shame in having a primitive ancestry.The evolutionary sciences don’t degrade mankind into “a meer animal,lacking in personal responsibilities and good morals and ethics”, unless you choose to want it to.

  28. Jeff said

    “Have you not read, that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female,…” Matthew 19:4

    Jesus says that God created them male and female. Was He wrong?

    The reason I ask is that you claim to be a Cristian, yet all I see you do is deny Scripture when it relates to the miraculous. I am not trying to slam you, just trying to understand you. Do you discount all miracles? the bodily resurrection of Christ? Or, is it only the creation account that gives you trouble?

    Are you the same “Anonymous” who posted on another topic and claimed to be a Methodist minister?

  29. anonymous said

    Jeff,

    I think I’m the one to which you refer. I did not post #26.

    Best Wishes

  30. Anonymous said

    I do not believe that miracles occur today. Why should it be any different two thousand years ago? But my faith in Jesus is still there.

    I read the Biblical stories of creation, Noah’s Ark and the Flood, Jonah, etc. as allegorical. I believe in God. I believe the Bible is not God.

    I am a Christian for the same reason that most of the Christians in the world are: that is how I was raised. I have faith but not because of some phony apologetics “science”.

    Regardless of my skeptical bent I always have faith in Jesus.

    How’s that?

  31. Jeff said

    One of you guys needs a real name so we can keep you straight. 🙂

    Anonymous (the one from post #30),

    If you do not believe in miracles, you do not believe in the resurrection, right?

    According to the New Testament, one must believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ to be a true Christian:

    Romans 10:9
    “because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

    1 Cor. 15:1-5
    “Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, [2] and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain.
    [3] For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, [4] that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, [5] and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. …”

    1 Cor. 15:12-19
    Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? [13] But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. [14] And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. [15] We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. [16] For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. [17] And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. [18] Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. [19] If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

    Paul goes on to say that Christ has indeed been raised from the dead. Did you catch the message above? If Christ is not risen, our faith is in vain and we are still in our sins. I want to say this as lovingly and tenderly as I can, if you do not believe in the risen Lord, your faith is vain – not true, saving faith.

    Acts 17:30-31
    The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, [31] because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

    I encourage you to examine your heart by these Scriptures. God has given all the proof He is going to give in the bodily resurrection of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Again, I say this lovingly, desiring your good, if you are not trusting in the risen Lord as your Savior, you are not a Christian. Please don’t blow this off without due consideration. Someday we will all stand before God and give an account of ourselves. Flee from the wrath to come, and rest all your hope in the risen Savior who died for our sins and was raised from the dead.

    Matthew 11:28-30 (Jesus speaking)
    “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

  32. Anonymous said

    Jeff, thanks, but I am aware of what the Bible says. I understand that typing all those verses is reassuring to you, so go ahead if you feel the need.

    I just stopped pretending to believe the unbelievable parts. Why pretend? Did Noah actually build an Ark to escape the Flood as described in the Bible? Of course not. Why pretend to believe that? God knows you are pretending.

    Same for the New Testament. Did Jesus even exist? Did He change the water into wine? I don’t know. Why pretend to believe that he did? Why not be honest and admit that you don’t know? God knows what’s in your heart. Right?

    I say that most of us are Christians because we were raised that way. That’s our culture. But we don’t need to be teaching the Bible to kids in science class.

    Disagree?

  33. JR said

    Anonymous 32, what is your belief with regards to death, do you believe in life after death?

  34. Jeff said

    Anonymous,

    Thanks for you honesty. I now know where you are coming from and can pray for you more intelligently.

    But, you are dead wrong in your assumptions about me. I can honestly say that I do believe the miracles recorded in the Bible. I not only believe that Jesus exists; I believe that He rose from the dead just as the Word says – all because of God’s grace. Honestly, if you can accept Genesis 1:1, the other miracles are no problem. If God can speak the universe into existence, then He has no problem making an axe head float, or raising His Son from the dead… Many men have come to faith trying to disprove the resurrection -Josh McDowell is one example.

    I can also relate to you, since I spent the first 27 years of my life as an unbeliever. The truth of the matter is that I always knew that God existed, but I didn’t want to submit to Him. I wanted to live life my own way so I rationalized my unbelief. The truth is that all men, deep down in their hearts, know that God exists and that He created all things (Romans 1:18-21). They simply refuse to submit to Him because they love their sin.

    John 3:19-21 (Jesus speaking)
    “And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. [20] For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. [21] But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.”

    Be honest with yourself and everyone else. Don’t claim to be a Christian when you deny God’s existence, the reality of the resurrection, and even whether or not Jesus exists. You are not a Christian. I say that lovingly, based on your own admissions. I also pray that you may come to see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, and turn from your sin and trust in Christ alone for you eternal salvation. He receives all who come to Him in faith (John 6:37). Even if you don’t believe it, read the gospel of John and ask the Lord to reveal Himself to you. I pray that you take this seriously! This is not a game. If you reject Christ you will stand before God someday alone and answer for you willful rebellion against His grace.

    Again, I am not trying to belittle you, and I am not trying to “comfort myself.” I want you to know the joy and fulfillment that I experience in Christ in this life. And I want you to have confidence on the day of judgment because you are trusting in the perfect finished work of Christ.

    John 3:16-17
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
    [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

  35. Anonymous said

    Jeff, as to your assumptions regarding me? Maybe I wasn’t very clear in stating that I am a believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am a Christian despite my skepticism about the reality of miracles.

    Why do I have faith in Jesus? Because my parents were Christians and taught me to believe; because that is how I was raised. Not because I pretend to believe that somewhere in this world, perhaps on the top of some mountain lies the remains of a 400 foot long Noah’s Ark.

    I say that most of us are Christians because we were born into Christian families. If we had been born into Muslim families we would be Muslim.

    Disagree? OK, but the whole point of this thread is the ridiculous proposition that we will be better off as a nation teaching our kids some kind of fake fundamentalist pseudo-science, or at least that we need to counter any effects that secular science (and history, geography, etc.) classes have on our kids.

    Our kids will be Christians because that is their upbringing, not because a snake really did speak, or because axes float.

  36. Jeff said

    If you do not believe that Christ was literally, bodily raised from the dead you are not a true Christian. That’s not my opinion, it’s Scriptural doctrine. If you do believe in the resurrection, then I was mistaken about you.

    By the way, no one becomes a Christian merely because of their upbringing. True repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who gives us the new birth, enabling us to repent and believe the gospel. Many godly families have raised their children to follow Christ, only to see them reject Christ and live for the world. Conversely, many people who are believers now were raised by parents who had absolutely no interest in the gospel. Some were even raised by rabid athiests, and yet God brings them to faith in His Son. He gets all the glory for salvation.

    I do not want to rehash the things we have already discussed above regarding the evolution/creatiom debate.

    Just for the sake of clarification, do you believe that Christ was raised from the dead?

  37. Anonymous said

    “By the way, no one becomes a Christian merely because of their upbringing.” – Jeff

    I think we are disagreeing about the definition of what being a Christian entails. That is a good topic but is not germane to the thread.

    This thread, like so many others, begins with a post about the topic of the day’s TTL show. Then after a few opinions are expressed it devolves into a fundamentalist vs. liberal talking points match.

    I am not a fundamentatlist Christian. I am here to present the liberal Christian point of view. If other liberal Christians posted more frequently perhaps it would be better. I understand your point of view perfectly. And I think you understand mine.

    If you disagree with me that it is not a good thing to teach the Bible to our kids in secular science classes then pray, do tell us why you think so?

  38. Anonymous said

    “Be honest with yourself and everyone else.” – Jeff
    ” You are not a Christian.” – Jeff

    Jeff, I know you must feel bad about saying these things to someone you don’t know so I’ll go ahead and accept your apology.

    Shake it off, dude!

  39. Mike Sears said

    The ONLY way a person becomes a Christian is by believing the Gospel. Regardless of how anyone is raised, regardless of how sinful they are (or have been), and regardless of ANY effort of their own. The GIFT of salvation and eternal life comes solely from God and is granted to us upon realization and trusting that (in this sequence) 1. God is perfect, holy and just. 2. That we are not… we are sinful and undeserving of anything but God’s perfect justice which is death. 3. Then realizing this wonderful and merciful truth… But God demonstrates His love in this, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 4. We then trust that Christ’s death is completely sufficient payment for our debt of Sin, and accept the gift that is given to us based upon NONE of our own merits but solely on Christ. 5. Because of Christ’s victory over death (the resurrection) we too receive a new life by faith through which we are enabled to live by the power of Christ in us, the true miracle manifested in our hearts!! THAT is the ONLY way anyone becomes a Christian. And it is all a work of God alone.

    I pray that whoever reads this will be enabled to believe this truth and will receive this magnificent gift that will change your life forever like it did mine 7 years ago at age 38 after having beleived all of my life that I was a Christian because I was raised Christian.

  40. Jeff said

    Anonymous,

    I do not apologize for stating that unless you believe in the resurrection you are not a Christian as the Bible defines one. I humbly gave my reasons for saying this and I stand by them.

    The reason for the aside was your denial of the miraculous. I was simply trying to understand you better and present what the Bible says on the topic. When you belittle the creation account as myth, and deny the reality of the miraculous, surely you would expect a response if you are truly seeking dialogue. I simply pointed out that Jesus took the creation account as true history and moved on from there.

    Anyway, the most important thing to understand is the gospel. Once a person is truly converted he will have no problem believing in the miraculous, including the fact that God spoke the universe into existence.

  41. Anonymous said

    “He receives all who come to Him in faith (John 6:37)” – Jeff

    I concur.

    “Even if you don’t believe it, read the gospel of John and ask the Lord to reveal Himself to you.” – Jeff

    Again, I heartily concur!

    “I simply pointed out that Jesus took the creation account as true history and moved on from there.” – Jeff

    Good-O! Now I think I’ll move on as well.

    P.S. You have insinuated that I am not being honest for stating my skepticism of the reality of miracles while claiming to be a Christian. I retract my pro-active acceptance of any forthcoming apology from you, sir, until it cometh.

  42. Jeff said

    I applaud your honesty. It helps me, and everyone else, understand where you are coming from. Keep being honest. What I said was IF you do not believe in the resurrection, you are not a Christian as the Bible defines one. Here is a direct quote from my post (notice – it is an “if, then” statement):

    Jeff
    “If you do not believe that Christ was literally, bodily raised from the dead you are not a true Christian. That’s not my opinion, it’s Scriptural doctrine. If you do believe in the resurrection, then I was mistaken about you.”

    I thought you had taken a position that viewed the resurrection as miraculous, and, therefore, false. I asked you to clarify whether or not you did believe in the resurrection and never got a clear answer. Below was your response:

    Anonymous
    “I do not believe that miracles occur today. Why should it be any different two thousand years ago?”

    That sure sounds like you do not believe Christ was raised bodily from the grave. Do you? Did I misinterpret your response?

  43. Anonymous said

    Jeff, again we are disagreeing about what it means to be a Christian. Perhaps we can’t agree on that.

    I have faith despite my skepticism. Your faith seems to require a lack of it.

    Which is why the Bible should not be taught in science class which brings us back to the very first few posts on this thread.

  44. Jeff said

    OK, I get it. You don’t want to answer the question. I won’t press it any further. It’s not that I never have any doubts. We are all growing in our knowledge of God and His grace, and, therefore, our trust in Him. The crucial issue is whether of not we believe in His Son as He is presented in Scripture – risen, ascended, and returning someday. I do believe that Jesus rose from the grave, but I get no credit for that fact; it is entirely a work of His grace.

    Neither do I believe the Bible should be taught is Science class. But I do believe that honest evidence should be given for both sides of the debate – evolution and creation. Science is not the exclusive domain of the atheist. Some of the greatest scientists this world has ever seen have been believers.

    Check out the DVD entitled “The Privileged Planet.” In it you will find a scientific presentation of the evidence for design. There are some amazing admissions from Robert Jastrow, an unbelieving astronomer (in the question and answer section). It is also a book.

    OK, we’ll leave it at that.

  45. Anonymous said

    “Neither do I believe the Bible should be taught is Science class. But I do believe that honest evidence should be given for both sides of the debate – evolution and creation. Science is not the exclusive domain of the atheist. Some of the greatest scientists this world has ever seen have been believers.” – Jeff

    See, we agree after all!

  46. ADB said

    I can’t resist the urge to weigh in on this a little bit. I have enjoyed the back and forth between two folks who seem to be trying to understand each other’s position. Some of what people really argue about on here (creation, rapture business) aren’t worth the effort in my opinion. But the matter of resurrection is of far more importance. A purely spiritual resurrection really is no resurrection at all. That concept is much more in line with Greek philosophy of the 1st century and earlier than with Jewish/Christian thought. If Christ did not rise bodily from the grave, he did not really defeat death. He simply arranged a truce with it. The New Testament says that all things will be made new- including our physical bodies. To get into a scenario where the physical stuff just passes away gets one dangerously close to gnosticism. Unfortunately, some ministers today happily blather on about the soul escaping the prison of the body not realizing that the end game is resurrection at the last day. (By the way I do believe that the souls of believers are with the Lord awaiting resurrection day, but scripture doesn’t say much about this “intermediate state.”)If I seem argumentative I apologize in advance, but this is one of those issues of faith that I find necessary to argue about.

    A curmudgeonly pastor 🙂

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