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Interview with a Wiccan

Posted by truthtalklive on July 27, 2007

How could a fomer professing Christian become a witch?

Your thoughts or comments for Stu as he talks with John the wiccan? 

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155 Responses to “Interview with a Wiccan”

  1. kandace said

    The question is whether John truly possessed the Holy Spirit of God. In other words, Did John ever come to the point in his life where he recognized his utter depravity before God, appropriated for himself the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ for his sinful nature, and determined in his heart to follow the leadership of the Holy Spirit of God. If this is true, I don’t see how Wiccan can also be Christians. The Word of God is full of examples of people who wandered away from the faith – possessing head knowledge but not possessing the experiential knowledge that changes their lives for eternity.

    We are commanded to make our calling and election sure by following the revealed Word of God. The Holy Spirit is our teacher, but we are continuously commanded to follow His leadership through the written Word of God, the Bible.

    Many movements claim to be of God but violate the principles revealed in His Word. I pray that John has not been deceived into thinking he met Jesus Christ when he truly has not fallen under His Lordship.

  2. Kenneth J said

    I agree with the first comment – Was John truly converted to begin with? With so many churches preaching easy believism, it is very likely he made a profession at some point yet he was never a possessor of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

    The core belief of Wicca is an evolutionary understanding of God’s creation. They, as Romans 1 says, worship the creation rather than the Creator. Wiccan’s are much like the Athenians at Mars hill n Acts 17 – we as believers in Jesus Christ must preach Christ as Creator who is separate from His creation.

    I would encourage John to visit: AnswersInGenesis.org for more details.

  3. Anonymous said

    what are you hoping to accomplish by having your guest on the air? next weel perhaps you could get a porn star on with you!

  4. Rob said

    I’d like to hear more about the “magic” that John performs. Are these “miracles”, “ceremonies”, “worship”, etc?

  5. Brian said

    I wonder where John gets his notion of right & wrong?
    Does he believe in a moral law and if so who is the moral law giver?

  6. Josh said

    John is obviously very open minded in his beliefs, and we’ll educated. As John said, he would appreciate us not tyring to constantly convert him. I’d simply ask John, with his objectivity, to look at all the world religions in one aspect. In each of these, what must the person do to have their soul go on to that religion’s desirable afterlife? I believe you’ll find two answers. All but one religion believes that the person themselves must do something. In Christian talk, they must have “good works”. John, as you said, you belive the good or the bad comes back to you in the afterlife. To what level of good or bad done will be a determination of your final destination after death? If God (or the Gods as you belive) is going to pass a judgement (or allow judgement), would we not have a guide to tell us exactly what must be done to go to “heaven”? I’m not asking these criticaly, I’m posing these with the hope that you’ll consider these points if you do infact research this topic. Apply these questions to each religions.

    I belive that only with Christinity will you find that God himself is the only one that can bring you to that good place in the afterlife. The Christian God tells us that none of us are worthy as he is perfect. Only with his grace can we be delivered to heaven. Obviously that’s my opinion, but I challenge you to look at this with an open mind and open eyes.

    I’ve looked at this before with confusion, actually wanting Christianity to fail this challenge. It did not, only all the others studied.

    I say these things with great love and hope that you’ll simply consider the comments. That’s all I can do.

    You said your not intersted in Christianity, but you’ve also said you take parts of different religions and use them as they suit your lifestyle (yes I’m paraphrasing and I hope I didn’t mis-represent that). I’m sure you’ve seen the theme of love throughout all these religions.

  7. stu said

    Our goal with any guest is to share Christ—And we tell them this ahead of time.
    However, we’re learning and constantly seeking to improve in this area. You’re feedback and calls are very helpful here, and I trust you will pray for John and reach out to him more through this on-line forum.

    We also hope that this show challenged listeners to get seriuos about getting in the Word, and learn how to better equip themselves to reach folks like John for Christ.

    But remember to ‘speak the truth in love’–Eph 4:15
    stu

  8. Mercy said

    I just want John to know that as I was driving home listening to the program and my heart just broke and tears just ran from my face uncontrollably. I immediately said a prayer for him. I want him to know that true Christians do love but hate the behavior or choice that his has made to be wiccan. God can save him because he does not know that he lost and he would deny that he was if asked the question.
    Listeners of Truth Talk Live
    God, please remove the blinders off this soul. God we pray that the bonds of satan are broken as your people do pray for John. It breaks our hearts to have someone that has such intelligence of man but lack the knowledge and wisdom of having a relationship with you God. Lord, you are the only One who can reach him and you are the One who is all-powerful. Lord we praise You and glorify Your holy name. Thank you Father for answering our prayer and it is in Jesus name that we ask these things. Your word says to ask and you shall receive. Lord we believe in your truth and your word is truth. Thank you for giving us tools to pray on the behalf of the lost.
    Amen.

  9. Anonymous said

    Their true goal in having these kind of confrontational shows is probably to please their advertisers.

  10. John said

    To Kandace: A Wiccan can’t be a Christian at the same time, because they’re pagan.I left the Christian faith when I became old enough to make my own decisions about religion.As I said during the {horribly short} show, I feel that I’ve always been pagan, it just took me awhile to decide what kind I wanted to be. And after years of study this is what I have happily become.Is this what you wanted to know, or did I misunderstand you? If so then sorry.Kenneth J. is a little confused about our worship practices. We also have our creator deities, we just revier nature as well.Our deities are revealed through Nature.I have been to Ken Ham’s website, and I’ve found it to be….most amusing.For ROB: These were the type of questions I was expecting to answer, but nobody seemed interested in actually LEARNING anything about my religion.Pity for them.If I understand you’re question, then simply put the answer is “Yes”.To fully satisfy you’re curiosity would take more time and space than I have.For Brian:I do have a moral code that I live and worship by, but it is my own.I don’t have time to share it with you,but I have 28 commandments to you’re 10.To JOSH:I have.To MERCY:Please don’t cry.I pity YOU.Save you’re sadness and Christian magick for someone who wants it.I will return to this site soon,for I an interested in you’re comments and opinions on this topic,and on me.So until the next time,Merry Meet and Merry Part and Merry Meet Again.

  11. Ted said

    The shows are confrontational because Stu stands up for what he believes. His passion for the Truth is infectious. It has nothing to do with pleasing the advertisers. Did you know that without the advertisers there would be no show and hense no truthtalklive.com where we can discuss these important issues? Stick to the issues and let the salespeople worry about the advertisers.

  12. anonymous said

    John may well have truly believed at some point, I’m not in a position to know. I’ll be in the minority on this point, but I think that if we have the freedom of the will to believe, we also have the freedom of the will to walk into apostasy. It doesn’t do any good to try to figure out what he may have believed in the past, but as of now he is lost. Because he’s already read the Bible and discounted large parts of it, quoting verses is like spitting into the wind. We can all take comfort in the knowledge that our God (the real One) is still reaching out to John. I would agree with John that Ken Ham’s stuff is amusing, actually pretty silly I think! (By the way I’m no evolutionist!!!)

  13. Me said

    I did listen this afternoon and I think what the callers were missing is the fact that John is not a christian, i.e. therefore he is not a believer. I heard him say this several times. The conversion to or back to christianity is not by people quoting the bible. He obviously knows the bible whether he has 1 or 17 is inmaterial. OK people here’s the plain and simple truth, he doesn’t practice christianity!! It’s no different than a Jewish person not practicing christianity or a muslim, etc. I would have liked to known what is wiccan, what do they believe in or who do they worship, what do they stand for? If it isn’t Jesus and God then what or who is it? Do they really believe in magic and do they perform magic and what kind? Do they cast spells or what? Is this really a religion or just a cult? What and how did his family react to his decision to be a wiccan and are they still Baptist or did they convert also? Does he associates/friends know that he is a wiccan and if so do they treat him different? Do wiccan’s have services on sundays, saturdays, or do they even congregate together at all? Do they have wiccan studies instead of bible studies? If they don’t have a wiccan book what do they have? What is wiccan? He mentioned he gardens, and hunts, and fishes, etc. Just about everyone I know does that at some point, what does that suppose mean, living off the land and being at one with nature?
    I was dissappointed in the callers I guess, everyone was asking and quoting the bible. My prayer for John is that God will reveal himself to him and bring him back the the truth!!, that would be an awesome miracle which supercedes magic anytime!!

  14. Me said

    Oh, I forgot to ask how old you are and how long you have been a practicing wiccan and when did you first start?

  15. Tom said

    Re the comment, “what are you hoping to accomplish…” yes, why not a porn star? How would she differ from the woman at the well? What K wants – and all of you really – is complete agreement. Please, please, grow up. Complete agreement is not possible in this world. After hours of drugery Stu finally introduces a guest with a truly foreign perspective and you callers pound him with mind-numbing dogma. “be like us, be like us…” You even subjected the poor man to that tired, weird, “good person” test. Come on, folks, you can do better.

    re the 500 eyewitnesses remark. There are NOT 500 eyewitness testimonies on record somewhere. There is only one man reporting that five hundred witnessed the resurrection. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE! If that one man is somehow wrong, the five hundred go away. Get it? You’re intentionally shoring up that one person’s testimony by increasing the numbers. Is Christianity so fragile that it has to be helped along with half-truths?

    Finally, hats off the John for his intelligent, eloquent remarks. I don’t agree with his philosophy, but at least he has one.

  16. Heather said

    It seemed like all the callers today were trying to push Christianity onto John and you just can’t push your religion onto somebody. They have to willing want to accpect it. John does not want to be a Christian and the only thing other Christians can do about that is pray that he will one day change his mind. As Christians we have to keep our faith strong and tell people why we have that faith but we can’t say to them “I’m right and your wrong” that isn’t going to help them see the point you are trying to make when you are telling them about how God is good to you. We all have our own beliefs and we need to rememeber that

  17. Me said

    John, or anyone out there, what is the difference between being a pagan and a wiccan or is there a difference?

  18. Anonymous said

    Ted stated: “It has nothing to do with pleasing the advertisers. Did you know that without the advertisers there would be no show..”

    So, will displeased advertisers be better?

    Stu is an entertainer. The show is entertainment for us on the drive home. I like the show and am always entertained and frequently I learn things. But the sponsors pay the rent.

  19. Jennifer said

    Gosh, I wish Stu spent more time listening to John during that interview so the rest of us could learn something.

    John retained a remarkable sense of composure, despite all the proselytizing and judgement day threats.

    Now there’s nothing wrong with clarifying a philosophical or bibilical perspective for listeners, but let’s not forget the love, people!

    Poeple are drawn to light, warmth, beauty, and love.
    Gathering around a campfire sharing smores and stories.
    Going to beautiful locations to silence the world’s noise and find God, a very creative being, indeed.
    Chidren chasing fireflies at night.
    Freshly baked bread.
    Premature babies are more likely to live when cuddled often.
    How many times have we seen the imprint of justice in a child’s
    mind when they say “That’s not fair!”

    Those who are secure in their Christianity don’t feel the need to use force with others. They trust that God in His all-knowingness will lead those who are called according to His purpose, in His own time and His own way. They know their words can be sharp and divisive as a sword, or sweet as the honeycomb, and they choose to speak with wisdom, seeking understanding and knowledge.

    You have to know where the two end points are in order to build a bridge and meet in the middle!

    Jesus was kinda radical compared with His contemporaries.
    He hung out with tax collectors and other societal outsiders. Women, of ill-repute, no less, had conversations with Him.
    If Jesus were here today, He might be heard telling a transsexual
    of the godly qualities within him or her, encouraging them to live a forgiven, joyous life. He never beat anyone over the head with a club. In fact, Jesus came from the line of David, whose lineage can be traced back to Rahab, a former prostitute who protected the spies. Later she married into God’s people, and lived a new life. So, Christians take heart in a God who shows the value of humility, redemption, and understanding in so many ways!

    Let’s give John a break, but challenge him a bit.

    John, when you’re in nature, enjoying the beauty around you, what goes through your mind?

    When I’m in a beautiful place, or when I study science, I am amazed at the logic and order I find in creation.

    Like the Fibonacci Sequence, for instance.

    Or the way actin-myosin filaments slide across each other when a muscle fiber contracts, while the atoms making up that structure are vibrating.

    In yoga, I learned that all the various types of tissues that compose each of us have corresponding frequencies at which they vibrate, much like making a crystal glass “sing” with a wet fingertip. Hence the chanting of mantras acting like organic ultrasound to heal the body.

    Then there’s the use of musical patterns to balance brainwaves.
    This can be documented using EEGs.

    In music alone, there is the Rule of Eight. For more,
    read Goedel Escher Bach.

    In reading Molecules of Emotion, I am fascinated by how our thoughts literally create chemical reactions within our bodies, which can then become reality. “As a man thinketh, so is he”.

    I guess what I’m saying is, the more I learn about science, emotions, handling people, and the complexities of life, the more
    relevant God becomes for me. I want to understand John’s beliefs
    because God loves John. If I profess to know God, I must love.
    People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.
    This is how the world knows who the modern-day disciples are.

    Bless you all!

  20. wade said

    As a Christian, I appreciate the topic being discussed on truth talk live. My brother, who was raised in the same church that I was, has turned to Wicca along with his wife and teenage son. Due to the extreme proliferation of this misguided “religion” I am sure that many of Stu’s listeners are in the same boat. I encourage Christians to learn more about this deception that is spreading quite rapidly amongst our youth. I applaud everyone’s efforts to reach out to this obviously intelligent, articulate and patient young man. That is what we should do, just as scripture says. John is very bright and needs to hear the truth. However, we need to respect his choice to reject the gospel, which is something that all people who choose Wicca do. I hope John understands that this is not a matter of Christians being judgmental because it is up to God to judge ALL–our responsibility is just to speak the truth in love. The encouraging news is that God will continue to pursue a relationship with His people, even when His people reject Him. When I was a young man, I rejected God as well. Not for Wicca, but for the same reason–selfishness. I wanted to please myself, sow to myself and create my own universe. Essentially, I wanted to be my own god and be seemingly in control of my own existence. I thank God that He did not leave me or forsake me, even when I had forsaken Him.
    The major flaw in Wicca is that it is self centered and not God centered. It is a fully customizable, make it up as you go along, do whatever feels good, no right or wrong religion. Wiccans do not believe in absolute truth–they believe that truth is relative and subjective. In other words your truth is different than mine. I am a subject of the almighty, sovereign creator of the universe–an infinite God. It is HIS prerogative to make requirements of me, not the other way around. I have no right and no authority to make up my own rules. It is a ridiculous and extremely arrogant premise to believe that I should be determining the rules instead of God. However, this simple belief is very appealing to the people that are attracted to Wicca. They get to do whatever they want, operate within relative truth and do so without any guilt or true responsibility. If something does not fit their belief system, they just throw it out.
    Another key issue where Wiccans get off track is that they do not accept the Bible as the complete and inerrant word of God. Therefore, I agree with the poster who commented that quoting scripture may seem futile. (remember the parable of the seeds and the soil they fall on) Quoting scripture to me when I was wallowed in unbelief was futile. But when I look back at the people in my life that did it, I can easily see that they did so out of love, not judgment. And remember that we are supposed to continue to spread the seed of the word, regardless of the condition of the soil. It was not until I experienced a heart change that scripture began to have meaning to me though. That means even the hardest concrete can eventually be softened by our wonderful Lord. Let’s continue to pray for John, my brother David, and all Wiccans–not out of sadness but out of love.

  21. Terry said

    I listened to the whole show friday. It was interesting and informant. I was disturbed, as I believe any Christian should be by Johns denouncing of the Truth. I commend the radio station and Stu for having him on. Who knows, maybe something that was said planted a seed. Or maybe the information we got will be used to reach another Wiccan, sometime. Thank you Stu.

  22. John said

    Hello everyone,and good evening.I enjoyed you’re replies.To ME:It will be difficult to give the full answers to you’re questions in the alloted space but I’ll try.The Wiccans originated in western Europe,mainly in Scotland, Ireland,all the way to France and Spain.They were known as the Celts.Learn about them and you learn about us.We are related to the Druids.My ancestors were Picts.We have been around since the Paleolithic,about 30,ooo years ago.Our religion is called an “organic” religion because different Wiccans worship in different ways so they can get the most out of they’re religion .There are many denominations, and then there are Solitaries like me who are alone.Because of the complex nature of Wicca I can’t really speak for all Wiccans to much,so I’ll just tell you about me,but for a better lesson on Wicca I advise you to go to a Barns and Nobels bookstore, go to the “New Age” section and just start reading books. Read books written BY pagans FOR pagans, BY witches FOR witches. That’s much better than going to the Christian sections, because Christians who write about us give information that is either false or so used out of context that it is rendered practically useless. It’s like trying to learn about Judaism from a Nazi. If you would like to learn more about my religious practices personally, you can write me at ferox1012@yahoo.com If only I had you’re mailing adress.I write great letters! But for those who write,don’t waste you’re time and mine trying to convert me.Christians never realize just how rude that is.To briefly answer some of you’re questions before I run out of room,I do work magick {I’m A Witch,after all.}and do a lot of work with nature spirits.I manipulate energy too.Wiccans never proslytise.The people in my life know that I’m Wiccan,and it’s O.K. I’m not shy about it to anyone,the copper pentacle I wear is obvious.I feel I’ve always been pagan, but I’ve only been a Wiccan for about 22 years.I’ll be 32 years old if I live past October.I live very rustic by todays standards,by choice,and love it.No T.V.,phone or phone lines,or A.C.Had to come to my parents to type this.Almost every wall in my home is covered with books.The swamp is my “church”and I worship and celebrate the 8 Wiccan holidays alone,although I have visited with covens before.Also,to answer you’re other question,Wiccans are pagans,but not all pagans are Wiccans. To Tom,Jennifer, and Heather,:Thanks.To Wade:You’re A dope.Believe whatever helps you get to sleep at night. I may not return to this site for some time unless Stu has me on his show again{Stu,if you’re reading,it was kind of fun.I’d be happy to do it again.You need but call and ask.}so perhaps I’ll hear from some of you at my Email address,and we can discuss things farther.Blessed Be.

  23. Ted said

    Sounds like a sad life to me with no hope at all in the future and after death. With all those books you’d think you would know some spelling and grammar. God help you.

  24. Karen said

    I just wanted to say something. I am John’s mother. I didn’t raise John to believe what he believes, but I can say that I know him better than anyone and I think if you met John in person you would agree with me when I say that John is the most honest,polite, spiritual, hard working, loving and happy people I have ever seen. He is completely satisfied with everything he has and never asked anyone for anything, but would be there in a minute if you needed him. I am extremely proud of the adult that he has become and he has never given me one ounce of trouble as he was growing up. No, I don’t understand completely everything that he believes in, but it would really be no different if he had decided to be muslim, buddist or any other religion different than mine. Yes, I pray for John, just like I pray for my other three children. I pray that he stay happy, healthy and loving and he is all three. I think he was very brave to come on your show and after reading some of the comments and I think some are very one-sided and very un-Christian-like in my opinion. As a Christian, are we suppose to judge people because they are different than we are and think different than we do? I don’t think so. Maybe the world would be a better place if we just tried to love each other, listen to each other and learn from each other and not be so quick to judge.

  25. Kenneth J said

    We can only judge – righteously – meaning, we can only go by the Word of God in our understanding of any religion. Wicca is a false hope of deceit. John said it’s been around for 30,000 years, yet there are many well qualified and well educated scientists that would dispute this using the fossil record and the latest scientific dating methods. And just because a religion is old, doesn’t mean it is true. Wiccans do worship the creation – it is a nature religion. The book of Roman’s addresses people such as John and also Acts 17 address such folk. Religion saves no one, nor does it bring true satisfaction in someones life – only a relationship with the One True God Jesus Christ brings fulfillment and satisfaction.

    To John’s mother – we can love, listen and learn from each other, but there is only One True Way – That is Jesus Christ. You say you are a Christian – Then you MUST, according to Scripture, understand that John is hellbound – John 3:16-18. That is hard to swallow, yet will we believe the Word or will we believe our feelings?

    As for Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis – http://www.AnswersInGenesis.org
    The message he proclaims and the message AiG stands for has yet to be disproved or discredited. I was an evolutionist for most of my life. Yet, there is no scientific evidence for evolution – no transitional fossils, no modern evolution from one kind to another kind, the staple dating methods of evolution have been found to be inconsistent. Many scientist no longer accept Darwin’s theory of evolution. As a Christian, we cannot accept evolution – the Bible totally disagrees with it. I encourage all believers to visit AiG’s website and also take a vacation to the new creation museum in Ohio. The core belief of every pagan religion, including wicca, is an evolutionary mindset and supposedly relieves the adherent of all guilt and shame. Without original sin inheritted from Adam, we can now live any way we want and worship whatever we want, we in essence become our own gods. No wonder so many want to believe in evolution – no accountability to your Creator.

  26. Anonymous said

    Kenneth J. states:
    “As for Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis – http://www.AnswersInGenesis.org. The message he proclaims and the message AiG stands for has yet to be disproved or discredited. ”

    You’re kidding, right? I could say that Kenneth J. has never disproved the existence of unicorns and be just as smart.

  27. kandace said

    John, I pray for you that you will meet Jesus Christ Himself. Christianity is not a religion. It is a relationship with Jesus Christ. The Bible is the way I meet with Jesus because the Bible is God’s Word – a love letter to me from the God who gave Himself for me. To John’s mom: I know you love John and did the best that you knew how to raise John in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. John needs to be among people who love him for himself and loving without words lead him to know Jesus Christ as a friend.

  28. Karen said

    To Kandace: Amen!

  29. Kenneth J said

    To “anonymous” # 26 – Unicorns are mentioned in the Holy Bible. Yet, not mystical fairytale horses with horns. They were literal animals that walked this earth yet went extinct.

    Evolution is a lie. Name one transitional fossil. All of the so-called ancester fossils of human beings have been proven to either be human, ape, or a hoax – no transitional fossils.

    Feel free to send AiG emails disputing their claims, they will address each one. You can also visit http://www.ICR.org and send them emails to dispute their claims, again, they will address each one.

  30. Anonymous said

    Kenneth J, save it. I could care less about unicorns. If you want to study science go to any public library and look up biology, geology, chemistry, etc.

    If you want the refutation of Answers In Genesis go here:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/

  31. Kenneth J said

    Anonymous #29 – been to the site, the refutations are lacking at best.

    Like I said, I was an evolutionist for most of my life. THank God my Creator, that I am no longer.

    askjohnson@triad.rr.com

  32. anonymous said

    Perhaps a show on creation would be in order. I cannot believe the notion that in order to believe the Bible you have to buy into the notion that the earth is only 6,000 years old. What is at issue is not belief in the Bible, but proper interpretation of it. Ken Ham has lots of volume and emotion that persuades a lot of people, but he simply doesn’t know how to make a valid logical argument or know what he’s talking about when it to dating techniques and Hebrew language. Misuse of scripture is almsot as bad as disbelief in it.

  33. Kenneth J said

    Anonymous #32 – the burden of proof is on you.

    The heart of evolution is that there has always been death suffering and disease since the first “simple celled organism” exploded into existence.

    The heart of the Scriptures is death is the wage or result of Adam’s sin.

    This great difference in interpretation of death is what causes the division. Either death has always existed and is good for the evoluton of the species, or death came into place when Adam sinned against his Creator and his Creator became his Judge.

    True interpretation of the Scriptures, including the New Testament will result in a literal interpretation of Genesis.

    http://www.AnswersInGenesis.org
    http://www.ICR.org
    http://www.ChristianAnswers.net

    To take a stand against a literal interpretation of Genesis chatpers 1 & 2 is to mock the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ – “As by one man, sin entered the earth and death by sin…” Was Adam a literal person? Was the flood local or worldwide? Explain the red blood cells in dinosaur fossils. Where are those transitional fossils?

    askjohnson@triad.rr.com

  34. anonymous said

    Kenneth, you miss the point entirely. One does NOT have to believe that Genesis 1 refers to six 24 hour days in order to believe in creation. Of course the wages of sin is death, of course sin and disease entered as a result of Adam’s sin. We don’t disagree on that. To say that I don’t take the death and resurrection of Christ seriously because I don’t interpret Genesis 1 as you do is nuts. AGAIN I SAY, NOT EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH SIX TWENTY FOUR HOUR DAYS IS AN ATHEIST HUMANIST!!Clearly you have been sold a bill of goods and have bought into it lock stock and barrel. I regret that this becomes an issue over which we Christians are so divided.

  35. Kenneth J said

    Just believe the BIble and there won’t be any divisions. You can’t uphold original sin if you say the earth is millions of years old and the fossil record is accurate. It just doesn’t fit.

  36. anonymous said

    I do believe the Bible. Our little debate is not about believing the Bible, or even about the authority and infallibility of it. It is about interpretation of it. In my opinion, the plain reading of the first few verses of Genesis leads me to think that 24 hour solar days are not what was intended. The sun wasn’t created until the fourth day and you can’t have a 24 hour day without it. Anyway, I agree that the fossil record is very incomplete, particularly with regard to human origins. I also think that to hold to a purely evolutionary perspective would undermine original sin. An old earth does not have anything to do with original sin, however. The doctrine of original requires one to believe that the first humans rebelled against God. It does not matter whether the earth was 5 minutes old or 5 trillion years old at the time this first sin happened. You may interpret these verses however you wish, but I would ask that you not question the Christianity of someone who does not interpret it as you do. This is simply one of those things over which reasonable people can disagree.

  37. Kenneth J said

    Anonymous # 36 – I disagree with you. If the earth is 5 trillion years old, then the dating methods for the fossils are correct and therefore death is not the wage of sin – thus you in essence destroy the need for a Savior – Read some of G.Richard Bozarth’s quotes, he was an atheist who knew the battle between evolution and creation well.

    And you don’t need the sun for it to be a 24 hour day – you need light and darkness and a rotating earth. Explain the book of Revelation – where there will be no sun, yet Light.

    An old earth interpretation of the Scriptures is an attempt to reconcile evolutionary “science” with Scripture. Hugh Ross is a proponent of this teaching and he is in error.

    Christians held to a young earth understanding of the Scriptures until humanistic philosophers came on the scene in the 1700-1800’s.

    Do your research. Like I said, I was an evolutionist for most of my life.

  38. anonymous said

    One last set of comments. I am grateful for your conversion and faith. The Revelation statement actually undermines your argument. The light in Rev. 22 is the Lamb, not the sun or the moon. The light/dark came from God, not the sun so a solar 24 hour day is not necessary. The light of Genesis could just as easily come from God or any other source God chose to use, but it wasn’t the sun. The Hebrew “yom” for day is used variously to refer to a calendar day, a general period of time, a lifetime, etc., (according to Brown,Driver and Briggs, the “gold standard” of Hebrew lexicons for a century). Second day of Old Testament in seminary the professor went on at length about how these creation accounts are theological in nature, that Moses (or whoever) wrote the Pentateuch was not trying to write a science or history text as we know it. That because of the nature of the literature that people could hold a wide variety of opinions regarding creation and all have very high regard for scripture (by the way it was at a seminary universally regarded as conservative.) I pretty much choose not to argue about creation, because it is not worth it. (I’ll argue about virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement, etc.) I’ve taken the time to debate a little here simply because, as one charged with proclaiming the Word weekly I do take it very seriously and don’t take lightly having my faith questioned over what is simply a matter of interpretation. In your opinion what can people of good will reasonably disagree about, or in other words what must a Christian believe in order to be a Christian?

  39. Kenneth J said

    Anonymous, your last post has explained alot to me. Again, the burden of proof is on you. When in Scripture does day mean a literal 24 hour day? How do you interpret the context to justify it being a literal 24 hour day? “Yom” can also , in context, depending on usage, can mean a literal 24 hour day. The Creator and Author of the Scriptures made it clear what He was referring to in Genesis, when in Exodus He proclaimed that in 6 days He created and on the seventh(the Sabbath) He rested and the Sabbath the Jews understood was a literal 24hr day – what we call Saturday, or to be correct, Friday evening to Saturday evening.

    In Genesis 1, it says that God created the light to separate the darkness. So, how many years later did He wait to create plantlife? And how many years later before He created the sun? Using your interpretation of “yom” in Genesis 1, how many years was Jonah in the belly of the fish/whale?

    You say creation is not worth arguing over. I was raised in 12 years of public education, indoctrinated with evolutionary teaching. NOw, I am a Christian. I know fully well that this issue is very much worth “arguing” over. Look at American society and popular belief and tell me that Biblical creation is not worth defending. I’m there in the frontlines, seeing these youth act as animals act, because they are being taught evolution is fact and they’re nothing but evolved animals.

    Then to have a Christian tell me that creation isn’t worth arguing over, that we can believe in long ages, gap theories, and millions of years and it doesn’t conflict with the inerrancy of Scripture? Seminary did you no good at all.

    Let a young man who grew up seeing compromising Christians and influenced by evolution give you a word of caution: Your belief in millions of years/denial of literal 24hr creation may not affect your salvation – but it will hinder/harm and cause the next generation to denounce the Scriptures and Christ Himself. I am living proof of that. And I thank God for ministries such as Answers in Genesis and Institute for Creation Research.

    And there are many other highly recommended “hebrew” lexicons out there that support a young earth interpretation of Genesis. And the majority, if not all of the church fathers believed in a young earth.

  40. Anonymous said

    Actually the “burden of proof” is on the young earthers to prove the global flood theory. The creation science websites are there to sell their wares to gullible fundamentalists like…Kenneth J.

    “You can’t teach a Sneetch.” -Doctor Suess

  41. Kenneth J said

    Anonymous # 40 – years of seminary training and all you can say is “gullible fundamentalists”.

    Thanks for the dialogue, it just reinforces my faith in the Word of God. Lets see – worldwide flood – “billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.” Yep, that’s what we see in the earths layers. Don’t tell me you go for the geologic time table? The evolutionary scientists can’t even explain why they can’t find the same layers throughout the earth………..

    Sincerely,
    Kenneth J.
    young-earth creationist

  42. John said

    Hi folks. I have enjoyed watching you bicker.Dearest Kenneth,I hope you live forever.It is because of Christians like you that I have become everything that I am today.Were it not for people like you, people like me might not fully realize just how very special we are.Truly, from the bottom of my heart,you have my deepest gratitude.Thank you Kenneth J.

    Anonymous:I’m not sure how you’ll take this, but for better or for worse,me and my family like you.That was great,quoting Doctor Suess.

  43. Kenneth J said

    “On Christ the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.”

    “Having eyes to see, yet not seeing. Having ears to hear, yet not hearing.”

    Don’t give any praise to me, it is the Creator with which you have to do with. Honestly, my dialogue with “anonymous” had really nothing to do with you John. We sort of got off topic.

    You said you were 32 and been a wiccan for 22 years – that makes you 10 when you became a wiccan. At 10, I was a theistic evolutionist – at age 15 I was an evolutionist who only called on my [g]od when I needed something or to complain about him not doing what I wanted. At 17, I had a girl pregnant – August of 1995 we were told by the doctor that the baby was not breathing and no heart beat(yes baby in the womb, not fetus), this 2 weeks before my 18th birthday. At that point I went from theistic evolutionist to atheistic evolutionist and hated the Christian God with a passion. At 21, He showed me who He was and who I was – He showed me inspite of me being who I was, He still desired a relationship with me. I realized how desperately I needed a relationship with Him. Here I am 8 years later and so thankful that Jesus Christ is real and very much alive. All other [g]ods can never compare to Him.

    Call me what you want – fanatic, fundamentalist, freak, fool – In Christ I live and move and have my being. May His name be forever on my heart, mind, and lips till my last breath.

    – Kenneth

  44. anonymous said

    Kenneth,

    Anonymous #40 is someone else. I’m the one who’s had the running debate with you. Enjoyed the debate, but speaking from a pastoral perspective if I may, I still suggest you grow beyond what Ken Ham says.

    Anonymous #32, 34, 36, 38.

  45. John said

    I like…”Speak to the earth,and it shall teach thee.” Job 12:8

  46. Kenneth J said

    Thanks Anonymous #44,

    I also suggest you don’t believe everything you were taught in Seminary. I’ve looked at all sides of this issue – gap theory, theistic evolution, day-age theory, progressive creationism, frame-work hypothesis, literal young earth creation, and only a young earth creation is in harmony with all the Scriptures and in harmony with true observational science.

    Take care,
    Kenneth

  47. stu said

    Wow—some great discussion! What do you think of having Ken Ham on as a guest, we can get him.

    Also, another great(or not so great) topic may be: Should Christians avoid age of the earth debates altogether?

    A lot of very smart Godly people hold to very different views on this—does discussing this issue drive a wedge between beleivers? is it too divisive?
    Unfortunatley, not all Christians can be as gracious at Kenneth J and Anonymous#44 in these areas of discussion–may need to do an entire show on this..
    any thoughts? stu

  48. Kenneth J said

    Hey Stu,

    I say absoultely have Ken Ham on.

    You can have him address the: Should we debate the age of the earth? question. And yes, give it an entire show.

    Especially since Answers in Genesis just opened the new Creation Museum in Ohio to refute evolution and millions of years.

    Maybe Anonymous #44 can have his Seminary professor debate Ken Ham on air?

    In Christ our Creator and Savior,
    Kenneth J.

  49. Anonymous said

    So, do we cast away the sciences and rely on the Bible for our knowledge of nature?

    Thank God for the separation of church and state.

  50. Kenneth J said

    Considering that science, especially evolutionary science constantly changes – Public school science books change at least every 5 years. And the Bible has not changed in 2000 years, then we should interpret nature through Biblical glasses. Example – the spider consuming the fly that was caught in its web: Why does the spider have venom and why does the fly have to become food? Evolution says survival of the fittest, advancement of the species, death is good for life. The Bible says wages of sin is death, the whole creation groans and cries out in pain, death is never good for life.

    It is a matter of world-view and interpretation.

    Separation of church and state has nothing to do with this issue. And it definately doesn’t mean what our “great” politicians say it means – it’s not even in the Constitution or declaration of Independence.

  51. ADB said

    I suppose that the first lions and tigers were created with the teeth of cattle for eating grass and leaves, and after the fall they somehow got long sharp teeth for tearing flesh?

  52. Kenneth J said

    ADB,

    Good question, but think about this: Panda bears are completely herbivorious and yet have huge canines. The hippo is a herbivore, yet look at the massive teeth. Fruit eating bats, very sharp teeth. Most turtle and tortoise species have the same “beak” structure, yet some are completely herbivore, some are omnivore and some are carnivore.

    As a young earth creationist, I hold to the Biblical account of creation and the fall. This in no way undermines natural selection or speciation. Yet, there is no proof in the fossil record or in the known present animal kingdom of one kind of animal evolving into another kind – a fish evolving into a bird, or a reptile into a mammal. The scientific terms are micro evolution which would involve natural selection/speciation and change within a kind. Macro evolution which is the evolutionary process of one supposed kind evolving into another kind. Micro is scientifically observable. Macro has never been observed nor truthfully documented.

    Good question. There are articles by well qualified scientists available on http://www.AnswersinGenesis.org dealing with your question.

    Kenneth J.

  53. Darryl Giles said

    There are several animals today that have sharp teeth, but are vegetarians. So what’s your point?

  54. Kenneth J said

    If your question #53 is referring to my post – sharp teeth have nothing to do with the fall described in Genesis chapter 3. They could or could not be a result of natural selection. For a more detailed explanation, please visit either http://www.AnswersInGenesis.org or http://www.ICR.org for a Biblical or creation science answer.

    Thanks, Kenneth

    I think we’ve gone on long enough. I hope Stu will have a show featuring Ken Ham soon. I hope you all take care and have a great day.

  55. Anonymous said

    Ken Ham and his fellow travelers (Kenneth J?) aren’t really interested in natural science. To them science is a bogeyman that destroys their myths.

    And yes, Kenneth J, the separation of church and state does have something to do with it. We don’t want to live in a Christian fundamentalist nation, do we?

  56. Kenneth J said

    Anonymous #55, please go back and read all the posts. In high school I majored in science, took every course I could, if not for finances, I probably would be a Herpetologist right now.

    I, as a Christian, am not afraid of science at all. True science will always reinforce what the Bible proclaims/

    We are very much interested in true science and modern findings, because it only confirms the Biblical account of creation – do your research and see how many evolutionists are “losing the faith” and becoming young-earth creationists. The evidence is there, question is “why won’t you believe?”

    Christian fundamentalist nation? You don’t understand what it means to be a Christian. Christians by faith accept the Bible as truth and Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, Creator and God. Christians walk by faith built on facts according to knowledge and wisdom.

    You need to understand what Thomas Jefferson meant when he wrote his letter discussing this “separation”.

    Just think, if you had grown up in America in the 1700’s, you would be taught young-earth creation and reading the Bible from an early age – my my my, how far we have devolved……….

    Y’all get ready because Christians are rising up and taking a stand on the truth of the Word of God and we are stepping out side the four walls of the church and engaging our post-Christian culture with the Word of God. The Bible addresses every aspect of our lives – even how we got here on this earth.

    – Kenneth J.

  57. Anonymous said

    “You don’t understand what it means to be a Christian” – Kenneth J.

    There’s a Christian sentiment.

    Kenneth J. you don’t know what it means to be a scientist.

    How’d you like THEM apples?

    HA!

  58. ADB said

    So ole’ Kenneth is an expert in History, Theology, and natural sciences! All from looking at one website. I’m impressed

  59. Kenneth J said

    Thanks anonymous and ADB for your comments.

    I’m not an expert in theology, science, or history. But I am a sincere learner in all three categories.

    Again I repeat, I was an evolutionist most of my life – the heart of evolution is a premise that there is no God – thus evolution cannot be reconciled with the Scriptures.

    I am assuming that anonymous and ADB are not Christians based on the posts above. So, I encourage them to reread all the posts above and answer the questions for themselves.

    One website – http://www.AnswersInGenesis.org – didn’t lead me to believe in recent creation and GOd as Creator – a look at all the evidence(science, history, Biblical) has lead me to believe as I do. I do not have a blind faith where I am trusting in the indoctrination I received in public school. My faith is built on facts.

    Do your own study concerning Genesis chapters 1-11, do your own study on the Resurrection of Jesus Christ – An honest study will result in you being convinced that the Bible is true and Jesus is the Creator.

  60. Anonymous said

    I am a Christian regardless of what Kenneth J thinks.

  61. Kenneth J said

    Anonymous,

    I’m assuming you are not the same anonymous that went to seminary. So, I’ll refer to you as Anon #2.

    I have not said you weren’t a Christian. Based on your “mocking” posts, I was led to believe that you weren’t a Christian.

    Good debates never include name calling and accusations.

    “Gullible fundamentalist” – Anon# 40
    Sarcasm #58
    accusations #57
    believing a myth #55

    Usually this is what people turn to when they have no answers to questions. Thank you for strengthening my faith in God’s word and continuing to show me that I can truly trust every word in the Bible.

    – Kenneth J.

    To Stu, I apologize that we’ve taken “Wiccan’s” and turned it into another topic. I’ll not post anymore.

  62. Anonymous said

    Fundamentalism is truly the danger to freedom.

  63. kandace said

    It isn’t fundamentalism which is the problem.
    Rather it is the failure of Christian people to exhibit the fruits of the Holy Spirit: love, joy, peace, etc. (Gal 5:22-23). Nobody can compel people to live out the Christian faith (the Biblical definition of belief) – this is a result of what the Holy Spirit of God does through a person who seeks to follow Christ. Faith is lived out according to James.
    It is not only in the head but must also be expressed through the heart into everyday life.

    Kenneth J: You alone did not completely change the Wicca board into something else. The discussion of evolution is a natural progression from the Wicca topic. Don’t feel bad for defending the Creation viewpoint.

    The real issue is: Reflecting the life of Christ in a world that doesn’t know Him. Christianity is not a religion. It is a relationship with Jesus: Nothing more and nothing less. Too many people equate Christianity with rules and regulations. Jesus said to love the Lord completely and to love people as we love ourselves. Instead of looking out for only Number 1, look out for others. When people Do what the Bible says rather than just talk about it, there is an interest that cannot be caged in. Jesus hung out with the publicans and sinners. He had His most scathing remarks to the Pharisees and the temple leadership. He would have a lot to say to those who impose their viewpoints on others (today’s legalists) as well as those who let everything go (today’s license people). Let’s strive for the middle according to Gal 5:22-23.

  64. ADB said

    Very well said, Kandace!

  65. Anonymous said

    Kandace, fundamentalism is not that dangerous yet in the U.S.A. because we have secular laws that protect us from being ruled by religion.

    For examples of state sponsored fundamentalism
    one needs only to read the news from the Middle East.

  66. Anonymous said

    “Just think, if you had grown up in America in the 1700’s, you would be taught young-earth creation and reading the Bible from an early age – my my my, how far we have devolved……….” – Kenneth J

    So Kenneth J is saying that we were better off when slavery was legal, women couldn’t vote, and children were forced into labor.

    “You need to understand what Thomas Jefferson meant when he wrote his letter discussing this “separation”.” – Kenneth J

    I have a better understanding than you seem to.

    “I, as a Christian, am not afraid of science at all. True science will always reinforce what the Bible proclaims/” – Kenneth J

    That tells us that you don’t understand the scientific method.

  67. kandace said

    Anonymous:
    I am not talking about religion. I’m not religious. I hate mere religion. I’m talking about a relationship with Jesus which is not the same thing. In religion, a person does…. In Christianity, according to Jesus, a person is…. This is a 180 degree difference.

    I may not agree with everything said in words, but I’d fight for the right to express all viewpoints in the marketplace of ideas.

    Jesus Christ is such a winsome personality that His views would win any argument any time and any place.

  68. Ivy said

    This is a rousing debate. I like what Kandace says about “fight[ing] for the right to express all viewpoints in the marketplace of ideas”. As Americans, thank God, we have the right to discuss our viewpoints, though they may differ. The apostles – especially Paul and Peter – debated all the time. It is a great method for understanding the word of God.

    Anyone who would choose to eliminate the beliefs of Christians or persons of any other faith in the public sphere is truly one who agrees with the ideas embedded in totalitarianism.

    Anyhoo!, there are many people posting here who may want to re-read their Bibles, because they so boldly claim the name of Christ while at the same time refusing to believe His very words. I won’t expound; I want you to hunt out my meaning in the pages of scripture.

    Additionally, regarding the debate between creationists v. old-earth believers…the reason young-earth believers choose that route is because to do otherwise implies that we can not fully believe what God told us in His word. I’ve never understood why people insist that the world couldn’t have been made in 6 days. It can only be that they believe man more than they believe God. He spells it out so plainly for us, that it seems futile to try to squeeze an evolutionary meaning out of His word. I mean, God went so far – in His grace and mercy – to lay out generations for us. He TOLD US how long Adam and His descendants lived…down to the number of days. Do you think God was actually saying that an 800 year old man really lived 8000 years or 8,000,000 years? What was the purpose for giving us those (seemingly endless) genealogies? Could it be that God wanted us to be able to date His creation for our own revelationary knowledge? Or is He just a trickster who couches His creativity and truth in similitudes and metaphors for His pleasure?

    Who do you think God is? Is He one of order and revelation? Or is He one that loves to play games with and trick his creation endlessly?

    It is we who have blinders on. If you take the Bible literally, what is it that you lose? Man’s truth. What is it that you gain? The revelation of the one true and living God.

    And to John (our Wiccan): I listened in to the broadcast. It was fascinating. I also thought it was odd for people – in their well meaningness – to use biblical verses to try to convince you of the truth of Christianity and the lie of Wicca. We Christians are not bullies, though some behave like it and some believe it to be the case. We are called by our God to seek and help save the lost. We are commissioned to share the gospel. Our God is requiring us to share our message. However, we do not do the converting. That is the Holy Spirit’s work. After a couple of attempts with you, the callers really should have stopped and just prayed for you. I prayed for you that day. Watch out, because God answers prayers! 😀

  69. Anonymous said

    “Anyone who would choose to eliminate the beliefs of Christians or persons of any other faith in the public sphere is truly one who agrees with the ideas embedded in totalitarianism.” – Ivy

    What is the public sphere and how does something get eliminated from it?

  70. Kevin said

    John,
    (If you still check in to this line of posts)

    First, thank you for accepting Stu’s invite to be on the show. I agree that you came across as a intelligent and kind man.

    Second, I appreciate your kindness to those who pounced upon you and the opportunity to ‘convert’ you.

    It is a difficult balance at best. As Christians we are commissioned by Jesus Christ to reach all nations and all people with the good news of God’s Kingdom and the wonderful thing that has taken place that will allow a reconcilliation between man and God. But as history has shown some take a warrior stance with the good news and it’s do or die. Our war is with things of the spirit realm that try to disrupt our connecton with God and ultimately wish to cause our destruction, not with you. We are taught to turn away from practices such as you follow. So naturally any christian would like to see you, as well as all mankind, come to know and honor the Creator rather than the things He created. But I believe that God knows what he is doing, and he has given us all a free will. You have chosen a path that according to our beliefs will cause you ultimate harm and we as Christians hope and desire only the best for you.

    I do not think that when Jesus said that we are the light of the world and to let our lights shine before men, that he meant for our lights to be the spotlights of an interrogator shining in the faces of those who believe differently than we do and demanding they conform. But rather more like a lighthouse that helps show the way.

    What is at stake is of the greatest importance. Not just the life of a man like you or me. Not just the salvation of a single human. But the respect and honor and glory of our Heavenly Father. And it is His desire that all be saved.

    Thank you again for being on the show and pointing out to some of us how unhelpfull we can be at times, though our motives are heartfelt and we intend to do good.
    Kevin

  71. Ivy said

    Anonymous #69 – the “public sphere” refers to the public sphere of influence – includes politics and the media and public school systems. I think you know what I’m referring to. And elimination occurs when an group (such as the ACLU or another such group or organization) lobbies to remove all “elements” of morality or Christianity from those “spheres” of influence. We can no longer pray in public schools; many people call for religion leaders to remove themselves from political debate and involvement; the debate about the separation of church and state; the list goes on.

    I don’t understand why I needed to clarify any of this for you…

  72. Anonymous said

    Ivy, you say that we can no longer pray in schools? That’s not true and I am calling you on it.

    You can repeat that tired old right wing mantra about the ACLU, etc. but don’t expect all of us to sit sit quietly and nod our heads.

    That’s why I asked you to explain your previous comment.

    Thanks!

  73. Ivy said

    Anonymous, maybe I shouldn’t even post a reply, but I feel I must…

    At this point, you are splitting hairs. I think the intent of this site, of the talk show, is to edify the church and share information. Wicca is serious, it is dangerous, and it is gaining a large following. That is me speaking from a Christian perspective – as I have every right to.

    My comments are neither tired nor are they dogmatic. I may be speaking in absolutes, but that does not make me right-wing, either (I take offense :-)). Prayer is not sanctioned in many public schools and you know it.

    I need to understand why you are posting comments to refute my own but you have not of value to add to this conversation, besides lame debates about non-issues?

  74. John said

    To Ivy: You amuse me. Please tell us exactly what is so serious and dangerous about the religion of Wicca? We have never waged a religious war, killed millions in the name of our deities,promoted any kind of bigotry,held mass book burnings,tried to domimate the whole world,destroy cultures,etc.,etc., unlike you “good christian soldiers”. And we don’t worship or even believe in Satan. I’m willing to bet that you know next to nothing about Wicca, save perhaps the most general information,if even that. Any argument that you and others like you have against my religion I could probably tear down, as so long as you believe in science and history, real science and history that is,not Ken Ham’s version. I am interested in you’r reply, as I am using you as a learning tool{that is not intended to be flattering].Please keep in mind that it may be some time befor I return and reply, so take you’r time to think about things and reply carefully.
    John.

  75. John said

    Everybody has shut-up. Does this mean that you guys are actually thinking about things? Or have you given up?

  76. Ted said

    John – You have a lot of people praying for you. I think perhaps most have taken a break from debating with you to do just that. If men can’t change you, the Holy Spirit surely can. Hope to see you in heaven one day.

  77. Anonymous said

    Ivy, thanks for the reply. You made a false statement. I was just pointing that out.

    And to blame the ACLU for the ills of society is the mantra of the right wing, so if the shoe fits…

  78. John said

    Hi, this is John’s mother again. Actually, no one has been debating with him. It seems to me that you guys have mostly been debating with each other. You know the way I see it is John came on your show & never has once tried to get anyone to change over to his religion, including myself. He really just wanted to help you understand what it is all about. And I never really heard anyone ask him anything. Most people have just condemned him and sentenced him to a life of hell. I look at things differently. Like I said, I know John better than anyone. And I see all the good in him and I feel that is coming from God. I think God is with him everyday. He believes in God. He never has said he doesn’t. He just believes in other things too.I’ve also met some of his friends that believe the same and they are a very nice bunch of people, very accepting and never judging each other. Don’t we wish everyone was like that! It sure would make the world a better place. Please think about it. It sure would make us Christians look alot better.
    I just happen to love John the way he is.

  79. kandace said

    To John’s mother,
    I don’t doubt that Wiccans can be nice people.
    I don’t doubt that John is a good person and believes in God, and “other things too.”

    The question is: How does a person deal with the words of Jesus and His claim to be the only way to salvation? This is not meant to be harsh or cruel in any manner.

    Please prayerfully consider the claims of Jesus Christ Himself and leave us mortal people out of the equation. Either Jesus is who He says or He’s the biggest egomaniac in the entire universe – not a good teacher at all. If Jesus is not who He claims to be, then Christianity is dangerous and ought to be avoided at all costs! Yet, who would die a martyr’s death for a lie? How can one explain the continual existence of a book that millions of people have tried to destroy?

    Let God Himself convince John of the truth of the Gospel, I am only the mailman delivering the mail.

  80. John said

    To Ivy: It was wise of you to not accept my challenge. You obviously realized that a discussion on this matter was completely out of your league. I will assume this as you either couldn’t or wouldn’t answer my questions. I was hoping that Kenneth J., Wade or some other puffed up, self-righteous religious bigot would jump in to answer my challenge, but no,they didn’t even try. You didn’t even try. How does it feel?
    To Ted: You actually think that this has been a debate between me & you people? You must have a very unique definition of the word. I tried to start one in my last response to Ivy, but no one was up to it. Besides, I’m quite certain that I know what you would have said anyway. In my study of Christianity over the years, I have acquired many books written by people like Bob Larson, Hal Lindsy,Phil Phillips, Joan H. Robie, Steve Russo and others of their ilk, and also books by Ken Ham, Josh McDowell, Henry M. Morris, E.G. White and others, not to mention the 17 Bibles. So you see… I know almost everything about your side of the argument, whether it’s condemning me, spiritual warfare techniques, or trying to prove to me that your way is the only way. But one can only get so much out of books, so I interview people when I can, especially people who are my opposites. There is nothing quite so good as getting the information straight from the source which is what I explained to Stu the first time I called his show and he discovered I was not a fellow Creationist. I knew that the show would lead to a place like this where I could maybe learn something new while at the same time clearing up misconceptions about Wicca. Unfortunately, I was disappointed on both counts. Only I person was actually curious enough to email to learn more. Aside from a select few, the rest of you gave me nothing new. I may have well have stuck to my books. Kenneth was amusing, but nothing new there either.

    To Kandace: Don’t be so naive. To try & answer your questions…Did you ever consider that Jesus may not have been everything that you have been lead to believe? It’s very difficult to confirm things about someone who lived so long ago.
    Especially someone who left no physical evidence behind. People like me think of Jesus as a great spiritual teacher. Was he anything more? Who can really say…His followers didn’t even start writing about him until long after he was gone and they realized he wasn’t coming back anytime soon. (What did he say about the lilies & what were his dying words? Oh shit, maybe we better start writing this stuff down!) As for his claims, he’s not the only divine child to make such claims. For example, the man commonly know as “Buddha” made almost exactly the same claims. He also predates Jesus by hundreds of years, so it’s not exactly like he was a copy-cat and he also ascended to the heavens after death and there are others. Christianity just treats its stories as “absolute historical truths” while the stories of other religions are condemned as lies or at best mythology. Not that I expect you to believe any to this. Who would die a martyr’s death for a lie? What about the Muslim extremists who flew our own planes into the twin towers on Sept. 11? Did they die for a lie? It happens more than you would think, depending on what you consider a lie to be. People like Kenneth Ivy and Wade live in a very tiny black & white us versus them version of the universe. And this is fine if that’s what it takes for them to live better lives. But it will not work for me. I live in a universe without boundaries. In your quest for spiritual world domination, try to understand that no way is the right way for everyone. People are just too weird & complex for this to be so. We may never have world peace but with understanding & effort, we might be able to achieve world tolerance. If you want it. And if you don’t, then I will look for you on the field. I may not waste my time replying on this site anymore as you people have made poor learning tools, but I shall be reading & listening. Goodbye.

  81. anonymous said

    John,

    I agree with you that some of my Christian brothers and sisters have been less than charitable and are very narrow. Particularly those who buy into Ken Ham, and ignoring common sense and what some of the finest conservative theologians have written on the subject. However, I warn you that you come off as being just as arrogant as you accuse them of being in some of your comments. You really do need to come up with some new material with which to try to discredit Christianity. These attacks are not new to you and have been around for centuries or more. As a Christian minister I do, however, wish you well in your growth.

  82. bible believer said

    Here is a list of some conservative Christians’s who hold to a literal young earth interpretation of Genesis 1 & 2:

    R.C. Sproul
    D.James Kennedy
    John MacArthur
    Henry Morris
    Roger Wiles
    Bob Coy
    Chuck Smith
    Alex McFarland
    Josh McDowell

    Plus a host of well educated scientist’s and the list is growing. Common sense would tell Christians to take the Bible as is and interpret the evidence based on the Bible.

    Do a study on the RATE project conducted by ICR. See if the evolutionary evidence is holding up.

    Just because one goes to Seminary, doesn’t mean they know it all and are always right.

    I wish all Christians would go into a public school near them and ask the students what they are being taught concering origins. Sure won’t hear “I was created in the image of God for His glory to shine forth His light to this world.” BUt you will hear “through the process of evolution, over a time span of millions of years, the simple-celled life evolved from pond scum into a fish that evolved into a reptile that evolved into a bird that evolved into an ape like creature that evolved into a humanlike creature that eventually evolved into Homo sapien sapien. We are nothing but advanced animals seeking to survive and continue the evolutionary process.”

    To all old-earth creationists who try to fit millions of years into the Bible: Read some of G. Richard Bozarth’s quotes, he dispised young-earth creationists, but he really laughed at old-earth creationists.

    – Kenneth J.

  83. anonymous said

    Kenneth,

    I did not post to enter a creation debate with anyone, but rather to respond to rather hypocritical (in my view) charges by “john the wiccan”. I suspect we agree that Scripture is inspired by God, is the supreme guide to faith and practice, and that the original manuscripts are infallibe in all they affirm. To me, scripture allows an old earth, and simple observation seems to demand it. Because of the difficulty of interpreting the first couple of chapters of Genesis, plus other related texts, and the wide divergence of opinion among Christians of good character, this is something about which people do disagree. To put it bluntly, I wasn’t there when God created, so I’m not going to debate the issue. I do however, think that it is dangerous and unhelpful to make belief in young earth creation an article of faith. Again, I do not wish to debate the issue with you or anyone, just don’t accuse me of being a darwinist merely because I don’t agree with you.

    Best wishes

  84. Ted said

    The devil is at work. When you get down to it, it is the only logical and plausible explanation for the madness that humanity is capable of. Just as surely as there is a God in heaven who loves you, there is a devil from hell who hates you. Jesus summed it up succinctly when He said, speaking of Satan, “The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly” (John 10:10). There is our choice in life, really: God or the devil.

    A lot of people say they don’t choose either. But in reality, by not choosing God, they choose the devil by default. There are no other choices. One of Satan’s most brilliant strategies is to convince people he does not exist, when all the while, he is manipulating their lives. Humanity is basically bad. And it is the devil who works through the fallen nature of human beings, getting them to do the evil things that he does.

    God gives us a choice in life. We are not forced to choose Him. Nor are we forced to choose the devil. But God has given us something called free will. We can choose sin, which leads to death. Or we can choose obedience to God, which leads to righteousness.

  85. John said

    Merry meet everyone! Dear old Anonymous, I said what I said because thats what I thought it would take to get a reply on this matter. To stir things up a bit, so to speak. I was not expecting it to come from you, however, but it seemed to work nontheless. Thanks.
    To Kennith: I think you are mistaken about the school kids.For one thing you’re giving them too much credit.Most school kids past the 7th grade don’t really pay attention to anything thats taught in the science classes.They seem to learn what they need to know in order to pass the classes [if even that} ,and then forget about it forever,unless they actually have an interest in such things. And such people seem to be rare.Most people that I have spoken to over the years on this topic seem to know next to nothing about anthropology, paleontology,or the evolutionary sciences.And most people seem offended or apathetic about it.I don’t think you really have anything to worry about.I’m afraid that for the majority of people if they have to choose between strange,hard,scientific facts and something that caters to their ego and makes them happy, then they will choose what makes them happy almost every time. Sigh……..
    TO Ted: Are you related to Ivy?
    Merry Meet and Merry Part, and Merry Meet Again.

  86. Ted said

    No, but I think you’re closer to God than you think you are.

  87. John said

    Really?! Which one? Ha ha ha ha.I hope the Goddess isn’t jealous. What in the world are you talking about? Compared to what you said about me in reply 23 and about humanity in reply 84 you’re statement is most confusing.Do tell.T.T.F.N.

  88. John said

    Weeelllllll??????

  89. John said

    Well, I guess that this topic has finally died. Oh well,it was fun while it lasted.

  90. kandace said

    To John,
    Jesus is either a liar, a lunatic, or who He claimed to be – the Son of God who died on the cross, was resurrected from the dead, and is in heaven interceding for us.

    The proofs of the resurrection are abundant. The enemies of Christ had ample time to refute these claims but have not done so. The Romans had nothing to gain to perpetuate a falsehood.
    The Jewish Sanhedrin could have refuted the claims of the resurrection. All they would have to do is to produce the body of Jesus and then Christianity would disappear.

    There were many writers who could have refuted the Christian message if they desired to do so.
    The Bible has survived 2,000 years of attacks of various kinds and still reigns supreme.

    I have been on my journey of investigation as well to validate the claims. Everytime I hear of some other challenge to Christianity, I find another evidence of its validity.

    I leave the task of convincing you of the truth of Christianity to the Holy Spirit of God. All that I do is to deliver to you the message He tells me to write to you along with my intercession that you will find Jesus Christ for yourself without all the cultural baggage that people have added to Him.

    Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ, not a religion.

  91. John said

    Dear Kandace, do you remember in the radio show when I tried to explain to the audience about my belief in the Christian God? I never said that I didn’t believe in him,only that I believed in more.That I even pray to the Christian God on behalf of Christian friends and family members.I also never really denied that Jesus was who people claimed he was, only that over the years all of the “cultural baggage” probably distorted what may have actually happened,as is often the case with stories so old.Have you ever studied into how the bible as we know it today was made? How “they” picked and chose the sections,the books of the bible?
    My opinion on the God of the Middle East that you have chosen to worship is that he is just that,a God of the Middle East. His area of worship has simply been spread over the earth over the years,by force in ancient times but peacefully these days.There are older paths to follow,with destinations that are just as pleasant.I just chose another path.

  92. Brad said

    John,

    WHAT makes you believe in more? What is your evidence, or reason for belief, that there is “more” (whatever “more” is)?

    John 14:6 says that “I [Jesus} am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father, except through Me.” According to this, John, there is NO other way, or “path.” Either you believe in Jesus fully, or you don’t. There isn’t any half way to it, b/c He claimed to be God and He claimed to be the ONLY way to salvation, not just one of many ways. Your at a crossroads, and you’ve chosen to not follow Christ. Just remember that others have tried to tell and show you the true way to salvation, only through Jesus Christ.

  93. John said

    And just when I was starting to think this topic was over…….
    Welcome Brad. I have enjoyed reading you’re replies on the other sights.How come the people that I reply to aren’t the ones who answer back?Anyway….to try and answer you’re question Brad, you are going to first have to believe in history according to modern scientific dating techniques.If you don’t then we have no common ground and this turns into the “my deity is better than you’re deity game”. Which can be fun, but is usually just a wast of time.If you do, then great! I can simply remind you that you’re religion was not the first, which is nothing to get sore over,after all,neither is mine.This may hurt the pride,but it shouldn’t really.Every ancient religious belief system was a new cult once apon a time.Those that weren’t successful for whatever reason faded away into obscurity or turned into myths.The successful ones turned into what are todays well-known religions. Does this take away the verisimilitude of a deity? I think not.Have you ever given serious thought to the question “what is a deity?”? What is a God,Brad?
    I know what Jesus said, or perhaps I should say, I know what people claim Jesus said. I have a collection of bibles,as well as a copy of the Torah and the Koran.If John 14:6 is 100% accurate than it still matters not to me.Why? Because that’s only in YOU’RE religious belief system.I have my own deities to attend to after my death.Because there is no concept of original sin in my religious belief system there’s no need of salvation,if I understand you’re meaning of the word.I have no fear of death.Perhaps after we’re both dead you can get some kind of “celestial pass” and come and visit me in my heaven.Hmmmmmmmmmm?
    I’d appreciate answers to my questions for Ted and Ivy.
    Blessed Be, John.

  94. Joey said

    Good luck in YOUR heaven, John. May God, the one and only God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have mercy on your soul. I doubt Brad will have any desire to visit where you are going and nor will I.

  95. Brad said

    John, sometimes it takes people a few days to answer, or some people just come on and post one time and you never see them again, you never know. But usually someone will answer the question.

    But you didn’t really answer my question – “WHAT makes you believe in more? What is your evidence, or reason for belief, that there is “more” (whatever “more” is)?”

    That is the key – there must be a REASON why you believe what you believe. I’m trying to find what it is. In other words, why do you follow Wiccan, as opposed to Christianity? What is your belief based upon?

  96. John said

    To Joey: Well, you’re half right.It’s too bad you are not willing to visit me in my heaven.I’ll need people like you there to make my heaven truly enjoyable,for me.I can only wonder what it must be like to be as self righteous as you sound. I wonder,did you and Brad read everything else above down to this point?If not then perhaps the answer that you seek is in one of my statements above,Brad.
    I’m sorry Brad if I did not answer you’re question,I thought that I had.I sure wish MY questions would get answered. What I mean by “more” are the different deities in the world and universe.If you truly want to know about me personally then why don’t you come to my e-mail address? It’s ferox1012@yahoo.com .I mentioned it in reply #22. And the name of my religion is Wicca, not Wiccan.That’s the name of the follower.Stu goofed up by using that word out of context. I must leave now,but I’ll return later[may be much later].So until the next time,t.t.f.n.
    John.

  97. Joey said

    John – You’re entitled to your beliefs. I’ll be praying for you. One day you’ll be held accountable in front of a Holy God, whether you believe it or not. I’ll be watching in sadness having already been spoken for by His Son. My prayer is that some day, somehow, you’ll come to know Him. Until then, good luck in your discussions on this blog. I’ve read Brad’s posts. He’s incredibly knowledgable. Me? I only know what I believe.

  98. John said

    I agree with you’re last sentence,Joey.Good luck to you,too.

  99. Brad said

    John,

    Just tell us here – I’m sure your reasons would be something that many on here would be interested to hear. Yes, I have went back and re-read your posts – they’re not much different than anyone else who has ever left the Christian faith for another religion. Bottom line – most people don’t leave due to theological issues, they leave for something personal.

    I appreciate your mom coming on here and being in your corner. I’m sure she loves you, and I don’t know her religious leanings. I would say to her, however, that just b/c you love John and just b/c he’s your son, doesn’t necessarily make everything he does right, or anything he believes in right. That is relativism. There is right, and there is wrong, and as much as you love John, he is wrong. If you know that deep down, I hope you truly take that to heart.

  100. John said

    Sigh…………….
    Some of my friends think that I’m being too practical with you people.That I am foolish to think that most of you might have an open mind and not see everything in “black” and “white”. Perhaps I should try a new approach? Before I attempt yet again to try an answer you’re question Brad I first need to know a few things about you.How old do you think the earth is?Do you think that you’re religion is the oldest?In you’re opinion what is a God? What kind of a bible or bibles do you use? How can you be soooooo sure that you’re right and everyone else is wrong? How old are you and how long have you been practicing the religion of Christianity? I need to know these things to help me decide how I should try and answer you’re questions in a way that you may be able to understand.Or not. Guess we’ll just have to wait and see,eh? So until the next time.
    John.

  101. Brad said

    John,

    Your responses to my questions should be your honest responses, not based on what I think or who I am but on what you believe. I’m not sure why you have difficulty answering them without getting background information from me. Whether I believe in your line of thinking or not, whether I’m “open-minded” to it or not, shouldn’t change the basis for your belief, b/c it’s YOUR basis, not mine. You’re looking for people to agree with you – you’re not looking to explain your point of view.

    That being said, I will answer your questions, only b/c I have nothing to hide and I’m not embarrassed of anything I believe or why I believe it:

    1) I believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old. I base this on various Scripture passages in the Bible, which can be linked to show time, and based on scientific studies which have also shown this to be the most probable timeline.

    2) I am Baptist by denomination, Christian by “religion”. Given that only God existed in the beginning, and that Christianity is wholly-centered around Him, then yes, I would have to say that my religion is the oldest.

    3) In my opinion, there is only one God. I think people can make many “gods” for themselves, which can be anything that takes their focus off of the one true God in Heaven. God is part of the Trinity, manifested in 3 distinct persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. He is all powerful, all knowing, eternal, and loves us all, so much that He sent His Son to die for all our sins, so that we could be with Him eternally, if we accept the gift of salvation. He loves us and cares for and provides for us, if we place our faith and trust in Him.

    4) Not sure what you mean by “kind” of Bible. I use principally the New International Version of the Bible as my main study text, but own Hebrew/Greek, New American Standard, King James, New King James versions, among others. They help when translating text, to arrive at the full meaning. I believe the correct Bible is one translated as accurately as possible from the best possible manuscripts, which the above Bibles do. Only through study of the original languages do I believe we can TRULY understand EXACTLY what is being said, as the Greek/Hebrew/Latin can have many different words which translate to the same English word. I believe the correct versions of the Bible have 66 books (and do not include any Apocryphal books).

    5) My conviction of the truthfulness of what I tell you comes from my faith in God, my study of His Word, and seeing evidence of its truthfulness in my life. Time and time again, I have seen how what God says to be true has been true in my life, when I submit my life to His will. But aside from faith, the mountains of evidence for the Bible are immensely strong, from Biblical, historical, geographical, archaeological and common-sensical points of view.

    6) I am 33 and have been a Christian technically since I was 6, though I wasn’t really a sold-out Christian and really had my life on track until I was about 29.

    This is as truthful as it gets for me – straight answers to straight questions. I hope you would provide the same.

  102. kandace said

    To John,
    Who says that The Christian God is Middle Eastern? Jehovah is too large to confine to only one geographical area. Just because He has chosen to initiate His message through the Jews does not mean that He has restricted His message to the Jewish people.

    His plan was to use the Jews as a conduit to reach the rest of the world. They wanted to keep it to themselves. The entire Church age was hidden from the Jews. We are blessed to be a part of His Kingdom.

    What “more” does Wicca offer you that Jesus doesn’t? Jesus is the Creator of the world. He is the architect of the natural realm.

    He is jealous for our love and affection because He loves us. He does not permit divided loyalties because it is not in our best interest. Please know that there is a loving Father who awaits your return from the far country of Wicca.

  103. John said

    Brad, my responses are always honest, but you’re fundamentalist,black & white, us vs them religious concept has rendered you unable or unwilling to understand my alien, polytheistic religious concept, so I wanted to learn more about you personally to help me understand how to better present my reply to you. I should answer in bible verses (HaHa)? What you wrote about your openmindedness (or lack of), not changing the basis of my belief because it’s mine and not yours…Why did you write that? I wrote what I wrote because I thought some openmindedness on your part might help you “get it”, but I think I can work around your difficulty. I’m not looking for people to agree with me. Why would I want that? HERE?!? I’m attracted to this place, to you people exactly because you don’t agree with me. I WANT you to disagree with me. Remember what my last reply to Ted was in reply to #80? That says it all, really. Your self-righteous arrogance makes people like Ivy, Kenneth J., Jen, and others like them especially appealing, as their views are so alien & amusing to me. I’m attracted to your weirdness. I think I might actually get suspicious if people agreed with me, accept for that bit you wrote on the Harry Potter blog. Half the reason I came on Stu’s radio show was out of curiosity to see how Christians like Kenneth or Ivy would react to the opportunity of getting to speak to one such as myself. For the other half, see reply #80 again. Christian fanatics piss & moan about us “witches” and pagans and yet they know almost nothing about us. I thought I was doing you people a favor by giving you the opportunity to ask a real witch questions about anything. But all most of you care about is judging me or trying to make me like you, which is both rude and a waste of time. You see, I was trying to do you a favor. People like me know almost everything about people like you. Personally, I have a large Christianity section in my library, I conduct interviews, visit churches, listen to Christian radio, and come to sites like this. I wonder…How may people reading these words have done so much to learn about witchcraft or Paganism? Why just today, I was in a Christian gift & supply store & got into a lively one-sided discussion about the evils of demons & witchcraft (as if witchcraft & Satanism are one-in-the-same) and yet she had NOT ONE book on the topic of witchcraft! I just let her talk on & on & she never knew what I was ( a witch would never come into my store! They couldn’t!) even though my pentacle was in plain view on my breast. How odd….

    You said you have nothing to hide & no embarrassment about why or what you believe. Why did you feel it necessary to say that? Aside from 4 & 6, I suspected what your answers would be, but I wanted to be sure. I also own the same Bibles you mentioned. I have three of the N.I.V. Bibles for teenagers. I like to know what’s being taught to kids. Because you’re a “young earther” like Kenneth J. & have your own customized brand of history & sciences, and because of your religious views, there is no evidence that I could give you that you would (or could?) ever accept. Not that I care to change you anyway (You could believe that the moon is made of green cheese for all I care. It would make you more interesting.) I know it’s pointless to try anyway, right? Right. At most, I’ll just try to correct you people on the topic of Withcraft, paganism and the occult, if I see something that’s in error. But, of course, that doesn’t mean that you have to accept it. (I don’t expect you to, remember?) Now, I believe that you wanted to know why I became a Wiccan, yes? Hopefully this will help.
    My people lived close to the land gardening, farming, fishing, etc. so nature has always been a very big part of my life. Some of my family members and friends were already pagan or pagan-like in various ways but as a very little boy I was raised Southern Baptist. I could quote the bible so well that family members called me “our little preacher boy”. Little kids do what they are raised to do, so I was a “Christian” .Despite this I always felt as if I was pagan. I was just too young to fully understand what I was, because you see, I was already practicing magick. As I grew older and learned more about Christianity It became apparent that it was not the faith for me. By this time I knew that I was a pagan that used magick, so I was a sorcerer, basically. .But I didn’t want to be an Agnostic so I studied up on all of the world religions and myths to decide what I wanted to be. I came very close to following a Native American religion but it did not seem right, me not being a Native American. My ancestors were mainly Scottish and Irish so to honor my Celtic roots I had a choice to be a Druid or a Wiccan, and I chose Wicca. The Picts were like Native Americans anyway. So now that I was religious I turned from a Sorcerer into a Witch. It was not easy, not at all. I had to then choose what kind of a Wiccan to be. There are soooo many types. Did you know that it traditionally takes a year and a day just to learn the basics? And that’s with the help of a coven! I had to learn almost everything by myself through trial and error. It took years of study and practice, learning about the sciences, plants, animals, minerals, spells and potions, spirits and other things. The learning never ends. I could study and experiment for ten life times and still never learn it all, thankfully. And here I am today. Next month it will be my birthday, and if I live past it, I will have been a Witch for over 22 years. Is this what you wanted to know Brad? I’ll get to you later on, Kandace. I’m going to bed. Goodnight.
    John.

  104. John said

    Dear Kandace, I know that “God” is Middle Eastern the same way that the Goddess Sakhmet is north African[Egypt], Vairacocha is South American[Peru], and that Zeus is Greek[Athens, mainly].What you said about the Christian God is like me saying about Zeus, that just because he chose to initiate his message through the Greeks does not mean that he has restricted his message to the Greek people. Do you see what I’m getting at here? True, I should have probably used a Creator Deity then instead of the God Zeus, but hopefully you understand what I mean.What does Wicca offer that Jesus doesn’t? I guess that I could answer by asking you “What can Christianity offer me that I can’t get out of Wicca?” In paganism there is no concept of original sin and no belief in Satan. Without these two things,that are only found in you’re religion,the benefits associated with the sacrifice of Jesus become meaningless. And the threat of damnation in you’re Hell, the “rules” of you’re religion don’t apply or even really matter to us. BECAUSE IT’S NOT OUR RELIGION.I know that you won’t or can’t accept this concept but even if you don’t believe it you must understand that people like me do, and there’s no changing that. To me,if I am a bad person then I suffer for it 3 times over,each time that I am bad. We call it the Three Fold Law. And the same thing applies if I am good. If I am bad enough, long enough, then I will go to my own Hell after death. If I remain a good person then I’ll go to my own Heaven. Perhaps one day far into the future, when I’m old[not just old, but OLDE] and senile, when I’m out of my mind, perhaps some young whippersnapper like Kenneth J. will come along and trick me into repenting, saying the Sinners Prayer,and getting “saved”.Or……….I might whapp said individual across the teeth with my cane[after all,I will be senile and out of my mind, remember?] and utter curses.It’s a risky thing, messing with old Witches.I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what happens, eh? By the way…I noticed that you lived in or near the city of Jacksonville. That’s not too terribly far away from us. Maybe you and my mom could get together sometime and have lunch,ha, ha, ha!
    Good night.

  105. Brad said

    “Brad, my responses are always honest, but you’re fundamentalist,black & white, us vs them religious concept has rendered you unable or unwilling to understand my alien, polytheistic religious concept, so I wanted to learn more about you personally to help me understand how to better present my reply to you.” (John)

    John, you can feel free to respond to me however you wish. I don’t view religion or Christianity as an “us vs. them” match at all. I do believe there are differences between people of different religion, and I believe that those differences will lead to different destinations after death (some to heaven, some to hell), but I certainly don’t view it as a “game”. It’s too serious to be a game. Do I believe in “black & white”? Yes I do. Am I what is considered a “fundamentalist”? Probably. That doesn’t mean I’m “unable or unwilling” to understand what you believe – it just means that I don’t AGREE with what you believe. Too much today, people confuse “tolerance” or “unwillingness” with “agreement”. The concepts are mutually exclusive.

    “I wrote what I wrote because I thought some openmindedness on your part might help you “get it”, but I think I can work around your difficulty. I’m not looking for people to agree with me. Why would I want that?” (John)

    Again, John, I don’t have to be open-minded to UNDERSTAND what you believe. I am open-minded. I have researched Christianity thoroughly, and have come to the conclusion, based upon faith and evidence, that it is THE truth about God. I UNDERSTAND you believe different, but I don’t AGREE with your beliefs. That’s not a “difficulty”, that’s a disagreement. I think your terms are off. And personally, I don’t buy for a second the notion that you don’t want people to agree with you. Everyone – EVERYONE – has a hole in their life that can only be filled by God, and so those without Him are ALWAYS, and WILL always, be searching for something, until it is either filled, or until they die without having it filled. You’re not any different from anyone else, or from me, before I was saved, John.

    “People like me know almost everything about people like you. Personally, I have a large Christianity section in my library, I conduct interviews, visit churches, listen to Christian radio, and come to sites like this.” (John)

    Really? What do you “know” about people like me, like us, John? For those who have Christ in their life, Christianity isn’t about head knowledge, it’s not about facts that anyone can learn. It’s about heart knowledge, what you believe about Christ and what you have living inside of you that guides how you conduct yourself and lets others know about the Christ living inside of you. Remember, the Bible speaks to this directly, it says that even the demons know, and shudder. Why? B/c they know who Christ IS, but they haven’t acknowledged Him as Lord, nor will they ever. You can have all the facts and head knowledge about Christ in the world, but unless He lives in your heart and is Lord of your life, it does you no good.

    “I wonder…How may people reading these words have done so much to learn about witchcraft or Paganism? Why just today, I was in a Christian gift & supply store & got into a lively one-sided discussion about the evils of demons & witchcraft (as if witchcraft & Satanism are one-in-the-same) and yet she had NOT ONE book on the topic of witchcraft! I just let her talk on & on & she never knew what I was ( a witch would never come into my store! They couldn’t!) even though my pentacle was in plain view on my breast. How odd….” (John)

    John, why are you so desperate for people to know about Wicca? It seems your offended that people don’t know it, or want to know it. Is it not our decision, just as it is your decision to not truly know or accept Christianity? I can tell you all about it, but it is your decision to listen or not, to accept it or not.

    “You said you have nothing to hide & no embarrassment about why or what you believe. Why did you feel it necessary to say that?” (John)

    B/c you don’t seem very forthcoming about any evidences at all, other than feelings, for what you believe. So I wanted to share why I believe what I believe, and say that I am proud of what I believe. Simple.

    “My people lived close to the land gardening, farming, fishing, etc. so nature has always been a very big part of my life…despite this I always felt as if I was pagan…as I grew older and learned more about Christianity It became apparent that it was not the faith for me. By this time I knew that I was a pagan that used magick, so I was a sorcerer, basically…but I didn’t want to be an Agnostic…to decide what I wanted to be…but it did not seem right…I had a choice to be a Druid or a Wiccan, and I chose Wicca…I had to then choose what kind of a Wiccan to be.” (John)

    Hollow answers, John, all of them. None of them grounded in anything you researched as to WHY you believe Wicca is true (above Christianity), but based on feelings or inclinations you’ve always “had.” John, what do you know about Christianity? Have you truly studied why you think it isn’t true? Do you even believe in absolute truth, that there is a right and a wrong, and a reason for that? Have you ever TRULY thought of that, John?

    I pray that you will. But yes, it is your choice.

  106. John said

    Brad, It was a joy to receive you’re reply, and so promptly,too!
    Wow, you really don’t get me at all.But then I didn’t really expect you to anyway.You’re so predictable, like Kenneth J.
    Believe whatever brings you happiness[trust me when I say that I’m grinning ear to ear].I’ll grade you’re response with two sighs, a giggle, and one big “DUH!!!”.
    Until the next time,
    John.

  107. Brad said

    John,

    It’s hard for anyone to really take much of what you say seriously when the replies you give are devoid of any reasons, other than your feelings, based solely in yourself. Do I “get” you? No, probably not – but what do I, or anyone else, have to go on? You’re not providing anyone with a lot of information here, John.

    I’ve told you, and anyone else who read what I said, exactly WHAT I believe, and WHY I believe it. We don’t have the same from you, John; all we have are childish replies to serious questions. What conclusion do you wish us to draw from that?

  108. JR said

    Brad,
    Why don’t you just leave it be? Don’t you see that he is purposely baiting you, and enjoying the game?

    God gave us a free choice. That’s what is so wonderful about Him. John has chosen to go another way, and made it clear he does not want to follow Jesus. I’m amazed that he keeps coming back, except perhaps because this game is attracting him.

    If he is right and we are wrong, what have we got to lose? If we are right and he is wrong how awesome that we did choose the right Way, and it’s all worth it in the end to spend Eternity with our Creator!

    John has been given the choice. Brad, you’re wasting time! There are others that are desperately hungry to be given the choice of spending eternity with Jesus, and they haven’t heard the gospel yet, they don’t even know there is actually a choice!

    I don’t know you John, but I love you! I don’t pity you, you’ve chosen your journey. We all need to work out our own salvation/journey.

    I hope at some point in your journey that you will come across someone that can really show Jesus to you, and not some man-made doctrine.

  109. ADB said

    Well put, JR. Enough of this one.

  110. John said

    Well, it’s about time…………
    It was enjoyable while it lasted, and although it didn’t start out as entertainment, it certainly ended that way.
    Yes JR., that was very well put.I can,t say that I return you’re love….but you have my begrudging respect.Good luck and goodbye.

  111. Brad said

    The unfortunate thing, JR (as well as for John), is that you don’t make any mention of consequences for John’s decision, and you almost give the impression that John has chosen the path that’s right for him which is OK.

    It’s not OK with God, and there are consequences, John. I just want to make sure that you know that.

  112. JR said

    Oh Brad… You’ve missed your calling. I think you need to join Parliament.

  113. Brad said

    JR, do you disagree with what I said, though?

  114. John said

    You’d probably make a pretty good televangelist, too.

  115. JR said

    Brad, it really doesn’t matter if I agreed or disagreed, you’d find fault with it either way.
    But that’s ok, you’re still young and I can’t hold that against you.

    John, I think we owe you this, if you have a few minutes (it’s an audio – 10mins max):

    Hope the url works.

  116. Brad said

    JR, gotta ask you how you think you’re any better, just b/c you’re older, as you imply. I asked a simple question, which you didn’t answer.

    If you agree that there are consequences, then those need to be mentioned, not just glossed over or not mentioned (like some televangelist, e.g. Osteen). If you don’t agree that there are consequences, then we have altogether different views of Christianity.

    A simple question, which begs a simple answer, which wasn’t received. I think your silence speaks volumes, but that’s ok, you’re older, so I won’t hold that against you.

  117. JR said

    See my point, Brad? You have managed to find fault with everything I’ve said (and even not said)!

    I didn’t mean to imply that I was any better just because of any age differences, and I apologize for causing you offense, I was really trying to bring a little humor in, which clearly wasn’t appropriate, unfortunately it’s difficult to portray humor when one can’t show expression. Please forgive me, sarcasm does not show love, and it is one of my many weaknesses.

    My silence has actually been due to not wanting to go into further debate with you.
    I personally felt that there were enough comments (and enough literature that John has on his shelves) on knowing the consequences of choosing to go on a different path.

    Having said that, I still stand with my first comment #108.
    I am honestly just not wanting to condemn or judge John for choosing that path. I am certainly not qualified to do that, I have so much of my own sins to deal with daily, and as I said, it seemed to me that there was enough stated on the topic of consequences. I was merely just trying to get you out of Johns game, I probably should’ve kept my silence, and again I ask your forgiveness Brad.

  118. Brad said

    JR,

    Game or not to John, I know what he is doing. Many like to argue just because, and John is no different – I knew that already. Welcome to 50% of the blogosphere.

    There’s a difference between saying someone will go to hell for their choice (b/c I said so), vs. saying someone will go to hell for their choice (b/c God says so). The first implies that someone other than God has a say in it, or makes some determination, which clearly isn’t the case. The second, however, merely states what Scripture already says, that those who die without Christ will perish. Not b/c I said so, but b/c God said so.

    Sometimes, we’re so worried about “judging” others, about “offending” them or being viewed as “intolerant”, that we don’t say things we should, especially when we know the path another has chosen is not the correct path, such as John’s.

  119. Moderator (not Stu) said

    John,

    You leave us no choice. Please stick to the topic.

    Thank you.

  120. John said

    I did not realize that this website was an advocate of censorship.
    Apparently it’s only o.k. to be rude to non-Christians.
    Erasing my replies matters not however, as almost everyone had time to read them, and I had made many copies of the original dialog for distribution[ This has become fun reading in the Pagan community] and my own personal library.
    Besides, I think it fits into this topic rather well, as it describes a lot of the individuals at this site.By censoring me you confirm my message.Keep up the good work.Heh,heh,heh,heh,heh!

  121. Joy said

    I did not hear the show the day it aired. I just ran across this topic and read a few of the posts. I would just like to make a general observation that no one is perfect. No one knows everything. I have friends that are Jehovah Witness, Mormon, Catholic, Christian, Muslim, Agnostic, etc. I have friends that are of different races, different sizes, and different family situations. I can get along with all of them. We all have choices everyday. We can choose to be happy. We can choose to love others. We can choose to do the opposite. I can not speak for anyone else but the Lord I know wants us to speak to others in love. I am no better than anyone else out there. I am nothing. I am the scum of the earth really and capable of horrible things. The moment I start thinking I am better than someone else is the moment that trouble starts. We can all learn something each day if we are open to it. My father always knew what he believed and why he believed what he believed but one thing he did do was when people came along his way and had a different perspective on life he listened….my dad tried to get to know people right where they were…tried to understand why they believe what they believe…people would walk away from him liking him…they may not agree with his outlook on life but they respected him….he taught me alot…I believe our Heavenly father does just this…he meets us right where we are…all broken…washed up and hurt….dirty…mean…The Lord loves us anyway…without HIM, we are nothing…but with Him we have everything…..PEACE

  122. Moderator said

    John,

    Your comment was deleted because it was not appropriate for this forum. We reserve the right to make those decisions. Please feel free to continue the discussion, but know that we will delete any comment we feel is obscene or attacks another visitor personally. We encourage vigorous debate, but it must adhere to common courtesy. If you wish to call that censorship, that’s fine. That’s your right as an American. Also, we are glad the discussion has made for fun reading with your friends. You never know what the Holy Spirit might do.

    Thank you,
    Moderator (not Stu)

  123. Brad said

    Joy,

    Nobody is saying they’re perfect here. I’m sure most of us on here have friends of different sizes, races, family situations, denominations, etc… But that DOESN’T make everyone’s individual religious beliefs CORRECT. Does everyone have a RIGHT to believe what they wish? Absolutely – I’m not saying any different. Does that mean everyone’s beliefs are RIGHT? Absolutely not. I agree that we need to speak to others in love, as Christ did. But Christ, although He spoke in love, also told others that He was the ONLY way, and told others when they were off track. He was trying to draw all men unto Himself, but He would not compromise the reality of the truth to do so. And the truth is that apart from faith in Christ, the Christ as depicted in the Bible, not some version of what we think He is or want Him to be, apart from that saving faith in Him, people are destined to an eternal hell. It’s not a pleasant concept, and not easy to tell others, or easy for others to hear, but it is nonetheless true. I have no problem listening to what others believe, if they truly want to tell me WHY they believe WHAT they believe, and are willing to have a 2-sided conversation. I have tried to do just that with John – but he won’t say WHY he believes WHAT he believes, he won’t discuss his basis. But irregardless of the basis, if the belief is contrary to Scripture, it is wrong. There’s no other way around that, unless you don’t believe Scripture to be true.

    Joy, I’m not sure what your beliefs are, or exactly what you meant by bringing this up. I do agree with you that only through Jesus can we have true peace.

  124. Summer said

    […we will delete any comment we feel is obscene or attacks another visitor personally…..it must adhere to common courtesy..]You really are a hypocrite.After reading all of the replies I can honestly say that the majority of the people replying to John at this site are not following these rules. How do replies #20 and #23 follow these rules? Imagin if John had tried to call Christianity a lie with the same self righteousness that was used against him,or if he tried condeming you people to his Hell for having a differint religious view? I guess John was right.It really is alright, even approved, to be insulting and biased torwards other people on this site,as so long as it’s derected torwards a non-Christian.Instead of trying to convert him and play the ” My deity is better than you’re deity game” as John called it, you people should have tried to use him as a “learning tool” as he was using you.Nobody asked him even one question about his rituals,what he did with magick,what his holidays were and how he cellebrated them,etc.
    he said above that he had 28 commandments to the Christian 10.
    Was absolutely knobody curious about what they were,expecially since he has 18 more than you? This would have answered reply #5 and compleatly destroys what Wade said about Wicca and Wiccans in reply #20,for why would someone fitting Wade’s description give themselves SO MANY moral guidlines to live and worship by? What an opportunity you people wasted.We should always be eager to learn everything that we can about those who are differint than ourselves,expecially the ones that we dissaprove of,like in John;s reply to Ted in reply #80.This may have been what he was getting at in his story about his encounter with that woman in the Christian gift store.Just think on this.

  125. Moderator said

    Hello Summer,

    We are sorry that you feel that way, but the comment insinuated a middle-finger gesture, which took things a little too far and was completely unnecessary, in our opinion. You can make your point without flipping people off. Can you point out to us some other comments that you feel should be deleted also? We are certainly not going to “pick” on anyone, regardless of their beliefs and would never single anyone out in this manner.

    Thank you,
    Moderator (not Stu)

  126. Brad said

    Summer, without knowing your beliefs, it is hard to know where you are coming from. So, in order to learn more about you, which seems pretty important to you, why don’t you tell us: WHAT exactly do you believe about Christ and Christianity (or about your religion, if you don’t follow Christ), and WHY do you believe it/WHAT is your basis for belief?

    By the way, this WAS asked of John at least twice, each time without any reply of substance. I did not inquire as to his extra commandments or his holidays, b/c I wasn’t interested in them. I’m interested as to WHY he believes the way he does.

  127. John said

    I could say exactly the same things about you’re answers to my questions, Brad.You’re fifth answer to my questions in reply #101 could very easily mirror my own answers about why I serve the deities that I serve,with the exception of bringing a bible into it, as we Wiccans have none.You’re answers are every bit as hollow as you claim mine to be.I’m just big enough to know that my way is not the only way for everyone,the absolute,only truth.I did not try to present you with hard evidence because,well, why bother? Especially since were talking about a “faith in things unseen”.I know that people like you are not really interested in facts anyway, for people like you have created you’re own version of history and science to custom-fit you’re own religion.And this is fine.Remember,I don’t want you to change,as it makes people like you more interesting. But unfortunately because of this we can’t help but always,inevitably, end up playing the “Myyy deity is better than Youurrr’e deity{whine,whine,…} game.Which is too bad,really.But that’s just the way it is with some people.Talking to someone like you about theology is akin to trying to discuss with a man who’s been blind from birth as to why he hates the color blue.Still,..I’ll try again, and I’ll make the answer real simple, too.Without getting into morals and ethics,I believe what I believe because it’s real for me,and it effects my life in ways that satisfy me[Usually.I always get what I deserve,what I need,anyway.]And the fact that all of this comes from the land of my ancestors and predates Christianity is icing on the cake.This is as good as it can ever get for someone like you,so you may as well be satisfied.I could tell you about my experiences,such stories I could tell…….!But you’d just say that I was being misled by demons,Satan,etc.,etc.,that only really belongs in Christianity and those other related religions of the Middle East.

  128. William said

    So, if John is right, when he dies he will come back as a grasshopper or some other reincarnated living thing to live on this evil planet even more. But, if the Christian is right, when he dies he gets to spend all eternity in a perfect heaven with the Lord of All Creation, Jesus Christ. I beieve I’ll stick with Christianity.

  129. Brad said

    John,

    So what would you say if I came up and kicked you, and then said I was justified in doing it b/c according to MY belief system, I believe that was OK, that it was “right” for me? Would you be OK with that?

  130. ADB said

    Speaking to my Christian friends on here, I propose that this line be allowed to die off. John will not be converted to Christianity on a forum like this, particularly when not many seem to want to meet him where he is. A million different threats of Hell are not going to do anything except drive John further away because I suspect his religious view does not include such a concept. John is where he wants to be right now, and most of what has happened on this line has probably confirmed his opinion. As a Christian I would like to see him come to know Christ, but trying to convert John or anyone else on a forum like this is like “spitting into the wind.” Just let this one be.

  131. Summer said

    Brad,you don’t strike me as someone that’s really interested in trying to learn anything about me personally,as so much as trying to find fuel for an argument.It really seems to annoy you when someone dissagrees with you’re narrow view of theology.
    You come off as insecure.Hostile too.
    “The spirit of the Taliban is alive in every fundamentalist”-A popular pagan bumper sticker.

  132. John said

    William, you are confused. You seem to have gotten me mixed up with a Hindi.While many types of Wiccans do believe in sone form of reincarnation into another earthly[or even another world somewhere else] life form, thats not quite how I am.Read reply #104.
    Brad, I’m not surprised by you’re attitude at all,as you belong to a religion that advocates murdering pagans and witches.you see, I expected worse.I must warn you though,that if you tried I would have to “punish” you severely.You’re still that hypothetical blind man hating one color out of a universe of colors that you could never see.Always a pleasure to hear from you.

  133. Brad said

    Summer, I’m not sure how I can “strike” you as anything, when you’ve never met me. I asked you a question – it is your choice to respond or not. So far, I’ve asked both you and John the same question, and both of you have not answered, citing I “don’t really want to understand you.” That’s your choice.

    It doesn’t annoy me when someone disagrees with me. But I do at least like it when people have a REASON for the disagreement, rather than just hiding behind their opinions which have no basis. And I’d love to hear how, or why, you think my view of theology is “narrow” – would it have anything to do with not accepting your “theology” as correct?

  134. Moderator said

    John,

    Is this comment really necessary? “I must warn you though,that if you tried I would have to “punish” you severely.” I don’t believe anyone is threatening violence towards you.

    It would be an interesting show to have you and Brad on the air to debate on Truth Talk Live.

    What do you guys think?

    Moderator (not Stu)

  135. William said

    http://www.llewellyn.com/teen/faq.php?channel=wicca

  136. John said

    Moderator, it sounds like an interesting time to be had,and I would do it in an instant.”Interesting” like a hurricane,perhaps.But I’d do it anyway.If anything just to read the replies about it at the web site.The main flaw I see with this though is the time that we would have to debate in.One radio show would never be even close to enough time.I recorded the last show that I was on and once all of the brakes,commercials,testimonials,etc. were taken out the show was only about half an hour long.And that’s without taking away all of the time that Stu spent talking about unrelated stuff at the beginning of the show.All added up, I think I spent only 10 minutes talking in a 60 minute show!
    See my point? You would have to stretch this debate over at least five shows to do it any justice,I think.What do you think about that?Also, if we did it ,what would the debate be about?And also,I don’t find Brad the least bit threatening,I was only giving an idea as to what I would do if Brad was actually able to get a kick in.

    William: Good for you! At least you tried.

    Brad, give it up.
    Perhaps you should listen to ADB.

  137. William said

    Seriously, why is this guy even allowed to continue posting? “I was only giving an idea as to what I would do if Brad was actually able to get a kick in”…..how childish. Nobody has threatened John with bodily harm. John, you started off strong and backed yourself up well, but now you’re digressing badly. This thread should stop here.

  138. Brad said

    John, you’ve sidestepped the question I posed to you about the “kick”. Since you’ve done so, I’ll anticipate what your answer is. I assume your answer is either “no, it’s not OK”, or “sure, go ahead and do it, but there’ll be consequences.” I can work with either, b/c they both come back to the same conclusion, which is that you don’t think it would be OK for me to kick you, even if I say it is OK for me and within my belief system. Which then leads to the fact that it’s probably not OK for anyone to kick anyone else, regardless of what they believe. That’s a moral law, which most people uphold (except, of course, for the angry 2 year-old who gets upset!!). If you TRULY believed truth was relative, then you would have no problem with me kicking you, if it was truth for me; it would just mean I had different truths than you.

    But you would have a problem with it, wouldn’t you? Which means you truly don’t believe truth is relative. If it’s not relative, then it is absolute. If there’s absolute truth/absolute laws, then there must be an absolute lawgiver. Who is that? It can’t be different for different people, or it would be relative, so it must be one single entity. Who is that, John?

    These are questions you have to answer in life – they can’t just be ignored and swept under the rug.

  139. Anonymous said

    “f there’s absolute truth/absolute laws, then there must be an absolute lawgiver. Who is that? It can’t be different for different people, or it would be relative, so it must be one single entity. Who is that, John?” – Brad

    I’ll butt in here and say that the absolute moral lawgiver whose identity Brad savors and that he wishes John to name might as well be… Darwinism?

    You shoot wide, Brad.

  140. Brad said

    Nice general statement, Anonymous. Why would you say Darwinism, whose theories have been all but disproven?

    Just to argue, I know why. And that’s OK.

  141. Summer said

    The evolutionary sciences have come a very,VERY, long way since Mr. Darwin’s time, Brad.I’ll bet you never even read the books that he wrote.I don’t think that John has ignored you’re questions at all, you just never really understood any of his answers. It’s always amusing to hear people like you who have created thier own version of history and science to coustom-fit thier religious views, try to talk about “absolutes”.Sometimes, Brad, some “truths”are relative.It’s cute how you tried to narrow it down to only “one single entity”.

  142. F.L.A. said

    John, why do you continue to waste you’re time with this guy Brad?You know he doesn’t really care about learning anything.People like him believe what they have been taught to believe, and to try and discredit anything that goes against it.He’s apparently unable to understand theology from a differint perspective.That’s why no other witches[besides me and Summer] really bother to go out of thier way to “debate” with people like him.As interesting as all of this has been,it’s not as if he’s telling you anything that you couldn’t have forseen anyway.It’s just a waste of time and energy.That was a great metaphor, by the way, about the blind man and colors, with Wicca being the color blue.

  143. Brad said

    Summer/F.L.A.,

    Couldn’t I say the same thing about you both, too? You don’t seem too interested in learning anything that anyone else has to say, either. If you’re going to make it sound as if that’s bad, then you might want to change the fact that you also do it. If you don’t think it’s bad, then you ought to stop saying it is.

    John HASN’T answered the questions at all. He is deliberately trying to sidestep them, b/c to truly look the questions in the face and give honest answers means he would have to really take a hard look at what he believes and why he believes it, and why he doesn’t believe other things, and the basis for that. I don’t think he really wants to do that, for some reason.

  144. John said

    You could say the same thing, but you’d be wrong.I have answered you’re questions to the best of my abilities, I even tried to make it easy for you.You almost sound like you’re projecting you’re own difficulties onto me,and others.I feel sorry for you’re kids, if this is the kind of stuff that they have to go through when you’re trying to learn something about something they did.If you’re not getting the answers you want, then perhaps you should ask in another way.Good luck!

  145. Brad said

    OK John, I’ll re-ask my questions in a simple, numbered format, to make them easy to answer. What I’d really like are just straight answers to the questions:

    1) WHAT is your evidence, or reason for belief, that there is “more” (whatever “more” is)?”

    2) WHY do you follow Wiccan, as opposed to Christianity? WHAT is your belief based upon?

    3) Do you believe in absolute truth, that there is a right and a wrong, and a reason for that?

    4) What would you say if I came up and kicked you, and then said I was justified in doing it b/c according to MY belief system, I believe that was OK, that it was “right” for me? Would you be OK with that?

    OK, I’ve asked them in as simple a format as I can think of, and you can use a simple format to answer them, using the corresponding numbers. That’s all I’m looking for, John, are honest, COMPLETE answers to the questions, without a bunch of talk about how misplaced or silly you think the questions might be, just honest answers based on your beliefs. Thanks.

  146. John said

    Oh, and by the way….
    I have a present for any one who wants it.
    If you type in…How to share the gospel with Pagans, by GWYDION..
    I think that you may find the information helpful.One of the great things about this is that it’s written by a pagan,so who would know better? Right? I wanted to mention this site during the radio show, but ran out of time.
    And William, why wouldn’t I be allowed to continue posting?I have helped make this site what it is,and have inspired over 145 replies.Besides,”THEY” seem to enjoy the conflicting views.Why else do you think the Moderator made me and Brad that offer to debate on a show? Do you really want me to leave? If so, then I WILL, for it really wouldn’t be any great loss to me at all.
    Tomorrow is a big holiday for me and there is much to do,so I bid you goodnight.

  147. Anonymous said

    “Nice general statement, Anonymous. Why would you say Darwinism, whose theories have been all but disproven?” – Brad

    Couldn’t stand that answer could you?

    That is as specific an answer as your question required.

    Butting back out now.

  148. William said

    Yes, you should leave. You keep threatening people and now you’re taking swipes at people kids, which is totally uncalled for:

    “I feel sorry for you’re kids, if this is the kind of stuff that they have to go through when you’re trying to learn something about something they did.” – John

    This whole thread should be deleted. Even though I agree with Brad it’s getting very tired. Just go about your business, both of you. Yeah, you inspired 145 comments of bickering that’s led to nothing, so you’ve accomplished nothing. In fact, nobody has accomplished anything here. Just mindless arguing. Go do something else, please.

  149. JR said

    Very interesting and informative article, (how to share the gospel with pagans).. thanks John.

  150. John said

    You’re welcome, JR.
    Does everyone else feel the same way as WILLIAM ?
    If so, if the majority of you do,then I will go.I was expecting this to have ended with my reply #110, but then Brad made the mistake of talking to me, and I thought…”Well, Why not?”
    Happy Autumn Equinox.

  151. Brad said

    Personally John,

    I’d still like to see your replies to the numbered questions I asked. But of course, it’s your decision to answer them.

    William,

    I would say that if you don’t want to read the blog, and don’t find it entertaining or profitable, then don’t read it. Nobody is forcing you to endure it.

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  155. John said

    [….slowly looks around, grins, and leaves again….]

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