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Trick or Truth: Does Putting on a Christian Mask Make One a Christian?

Posted by truthtalklive on October 31, 2008

It’s Halloween and Reformation Day and just days before the 2008 election… “the perfect storm” and it all comes together on today’s edition of Truthtalk Live! Stu’s special guest is talk show host Bob Enyart www.enyart.com  How would you respond to today’s question?

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87 Responses to “Trick or Truth: Does Putting on a Christian Mask Make One a Christian?”

  1. Maz said

    If it’s a mask, then it isn’t real….commonsense!

  2. Jared said

    Maz is correct again!

    As it pertains to the Church – Visibly perhaps … within ones heart no. Only God can change hearts! And, for that matter God is the only one who truly knows.

  3. Maz said

    And who are they trying to kid? And why?

  4. Bob Enyart said

    Guys, hi! Hey, Reagan’s favorite publication, Human Events, the Republican magazine, wrote this week (check out thte last sentence. Ha!
    A 58- or 59-seat Democratic majority, however, would be formidable. Minority Republicans would find it nearly impossible to pick off enough votes to ever get a majority in that chamber. With the help of one or two Republican Senators–such as Olympia Snowe (Me.), Susan Collins (Me.), George Voinovich (Ohio), or Arlen Specter (Penn.)–Democrats could bust a filibuster. To break a judicial filibuster, Democrats could also count on Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.).

  5. brianshaw said

    I agree with Jared. You can mask your face but you can’t mask your heart–only He knows. But then again, if your heart is right, there would be no mask.

    What about the flip side–the Christian whose heart is right but is too ashamed and so wears a mask to cover up the “transformation?”

  6. Maz said

    Brianshaw: I would say they were hiding their light under a bushel.

    Christians: Let His light shine…the world needs to see it.

  7. Kasha said

    Let’s play “what if”.

    What if, back in 2003, instead of invading Iraq, we had stayed in Afghanistan and built roads, schools, and eventually churches. Presto! An ally in the middle east.

    What if, instead of accepting the wars currently raging as definite signs that the Lord is returning soon and therefore making little effort to stop them, we funded missionaries in China where Christianity is currently in a very real battle with Islam for converts. Presto! An ally in southeast asia, another area of Muslim influence. Not to mention next to Russia. (And if Jesus does return next week, more people that get to go with him – nothing lost, everything gained).

    What if, instead of trying to criminalize illegal immigrants, we invited them to our churches, helped them learn how to read and speak English, and helped them start the process of naturalization if they wanted to stay and help them get work visas if they only wanted to do the low wage jobs you can’t even get a teenager to do and then go back to Mexico. Presto! Sending Christians with a positive view of the US back to our neighboring country.

    What if we really behaved as if we believed Christ was the answer to all of our problems?

    What if we took off the “mask” of Christianity, and put on the blood washed clothes of Christ?

  8. Jeff42 said

    I for one am all for “behaving as if we really believed Christ was the answer to all our problems,” which he is, by the way. I am all for finishing well in Afghanistan (which I believe we will do), funding missions to China (which the church is certainly doing), and showing immigrants the love of Christ (also something I see the church doing).

    But another very important aspect of walking with Christ (not the only one, but an important one) is protecting innocent human life (including babies in the womb). And I will not vote for anyone who does not have a pro-life voting record. And I certainly would not cast a vote for anyone who supports partial birth abortion, something I am quite sure Christ would not condone (or vote for). This is not the only important issue one must consider, but it is certainly a very weighty one for anyone claiming to follow Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

    Indeed, let’s seek to follow Christ in every aspect of our lives.

    my two cents.

  9. Kasha said

    When we stand before Jesus and he asks, What did you ever do for the poor, the thirsty, the hungry, the oppressed, the prisoner? as in Matt 25, I will be very surprised if the only answer he is looking for is “I voted for the person who promised to appoint supreme court judges that will probably overturn Roe v Wade, should it come back up before the supreme court.”

    Just my 2 cents.

  10. Jeff42 said

    I would be surprised too. I tried to make clear that abortion is not the only issue with which we are to be concerned. It is only one of many. But that doesn’t make it any less important. Part of walking faithfully with Christ is defending the most vulnerable among us. Do you disagree?

  11. Jared said

    Kasha and Jeff42

    It is obvious from your above comments you didn’t read the rest of that passage of scripture. Parenthetically, I don’t expect either of you to get it even if you do read the rest of the passage. But, maybe God will enlighten your eyes.

  12. brianshaw said

    With just two cents, it sounds as though neither of you could afford having your wealth spread around–LOL. It’s a good dialogue and I think you two agree more than you disagree. Without addressing your thoughts specifically, I think you are both saying that instead of retreating like we often do, we Christians need to advance our message by doing unto the least of our brothers (to paraphrse Jesus in Matt 25:40).

    I agree–we need an out of the box approach that speaks into current culture instead of running from it. I think distibuting my own wealth/resources (aka, ministry) is more effective than having the government do it for me (aka, Socialism). The brother that Matt 25:40 is referring to is not Big Brother. God is the provider (Jehovah gira) and he does that through His people that are filled with Christ, not governement.

    Regarding abortion, I’m with Jeff42. You’re right though, Kasha, Christ will not ask who we voted for and what their promises were. He’ll already know for one but more important to him is our heart and I think both of your hearts are in the right place.

    I do have a question though, Kasha. Why are the lives of those in China any more important than the one’s that are unborn?

    God bless you both!

  13. Maz said

    Jeff42: #10. That’s exactly what I would say to Kash. We care about ALL those who need help and THAT INCLUDES BABIES IN THE WOMB.

  14. Maz said

    Brianshaw: ”I do have a question though, Kasha. Why are the lives of those in China any more important than the one’s that are unborn”

    Exactly.

  15. Jeff42 said

    Jared,

    If you read my posts clearly, you will see that I didn’t specifically address the Mathew passage. I was simply making the point that part of our responsibility as Christians is to defend the helpless. But I am more than willing to discuss that passage if you like. I might understand it better than you think. :)

  16. Jared said

    Sorry Jeff42.

    I was under the assumption you were agreeing with Kasha. Whenever this person takes scripture they butcher it and extract exactly the understanding they want. It is a works based religion of their own making … parenthetically, we all do this at times and to varying degrees, but this person is really bad.

    You will note that the true christians say “Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Look at what the Lord calls them, “The righteous”.

    Kasha says “We” and then refers to the text as if the righteous will give answers.”

    The righteous have no answer to give because they know their righteousness is in and through the one judging them alone. The one who declares from His thrown they are righteous.

    It just breaks my heart to see people butcher the word of my Lord like this and by the true meaning of the text they imply they are among the unrighteous and they don’t even know it. Even worse they steel our Lord’s glory.

    Remember, at the end of the sermon on the mount Jesus says “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    So many of these people who claim to be christians don’t understand that their works do not do them any good in terms of righteousness. That is of our righteous savior alone …. the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

    Sorry, I lumped you in.

  17. John said

    How does it feel to be labled as one of “those people” Kasha?
    Almost as if your as bad as me,Ferox,Barney,Abc’s,Bookert, or Stanley, eh? Surely at least as bad as MattF[sympathetic smile].
    To speak personally,I’m rather relieved that there are not more “real Christians” like Jared, Maz, Bob Griffin, and Ed[where'd that guy go to, anyway? He was supposed to try and put Ferox on the spot with accusations of sin, or something.]in America.
    Jared, we non-Christians see you Christians turn on each other like you are doing with Kasha all the time.
    Do you have any idea how this makes Christianity seem to the simpleminded? It makes Christianity seem no different than any other religion, if you know what I mean.
    I may be mistaken but I thought the ideal Christian was supposed to seek out and spend time with those who were different or sinful and bring them into the faith with various lessons of love,mercy,humility,understanding etc.etc.
    I am not seeing a lot of this in your interactions with people like us.

  18. Jared said

    John

    We sinners who have been saved by the righteousness of Christ are no better than you or the others you reference in and of ourselves. We are just as lost as everyone else on our own. But with Christ standing as our righteousness and paying the great and just penalty for our sin, we are humbly saved. Not because of any good in us, but completely by our God’s good will. And, this is all of God’s work and none of our own. We have nothing to say to you other than look to the Lord Jesus Christ. When you look to christianity you will see what you like and much of that will be true … a bunch of pathetic worthless sinners, that is if sin can make any sense to an atheist, and interestingly enough it does. That is because God has written the law on all men’s hearts. Until the Holy Spirit effectually calls us we suppress the truth. But again, if you see nothing else, see that I, Jared, am in and of myself no more righteous, no more worthy, no better, in fact perhaps worse, than anyone else on this site. For the Lord has enlightened my eyes and made my heart of stone into a heart of flesh and I still, I am a sinner even though I know the truth, in my flesh. But again, I point you to my Saviour …. the LORD JESUS CHRIST. He is my righteousness.

    Parenthetically, christians are suppose to, sharpen one and call one another on the carpet, and if Kasha is a christian, which I am not the final judge of, this is what I am called to do when the stands that are put forth are directly opposed to the word of my God. If Kasha is a christian the Holy Spirit will use the word to bring conviction.

    I also don’t expect those who are not God’s people to understand any of this and they will make statements like you have made above. It is not how we look to the world that saves people, nor our supposed good works, or OUR missions, or as you have said “various lessons of love,mercy,humility,understanding etc.etc”.

    As our Lord says over and over and over again in scripture:

    Jonah 2
    9 But I with the voice of thanksgiving
    will sacrifice to you;
    what I have vowed I will pay.
    Salvation belongs to the LORD!”

    Psalm 3

    7 Arise, O LORD!
    Save me, O my God!
    For you strike all my enemies on the cheek;
    you break the teeth of the wicked.

    8 Salvation belongs to the LORD;
    your blessing be on your people!

    Ephesians 1

    4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for(M) adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in(P) the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood,

    11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to(AD) the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

    Love is not true love when we choose it, or do something worthy of it, or find it. The true love shown by Christ is true and the only His, no one else can do this, because He showed it to his enemies and to those who did not seek him and to those who were not worthy.

    That is why the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is unlike any other man made religion, because we can’t do this or comprehend it before he shows us how he did do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  19. Jeff42 said

    Jared,

    Thanks for the response. No offense taken.

    1 Corinthians 1:30-31 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God — and righteousness and sanctification and redemption — 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”

  20. Jared said

    Yes. Let us Glory in the Lord for that is all we have to Glory in!!!!

    Happy Reformation Day!

    Yippee–Sunday is almost here! Wahoo! In order to get ready for church–our highest and holiest calling–let us hear from TW, from his work entitled, “The Art of Divine Contentment”:

    “Divine Motives to Contentment.
    1. Consider the excellency of it. Contentment is a flower that does not grow in every garden; it teaches a man how in the midst of want to abound. You would think it were excellent if I could prescribe a receipt or antidote against poverty: but behold here is that which is more excellent, for a man to want, and yet have enough, this alone contentment of spirit does bring. Contentation is a remedy against all our trouble, an alleviation to all our burdens, it is the cure of care. Contentation, though it be not properly a grace (it is rather a disposition of mind). yet in it there is a happy temperature and mixture of all the graces: it is a most precious compound, which is made up of faith, patience, meekness, humility, etc. which are the ingredients put into it.”

  21. Jared said

    Not my words above. Much greater than I.

  22. Maz said

    John: #17. ”I may be mistaken but I thought the ideal Christian was supposed to seek out and spend time with those who were different or sinful and bring them into the faith with various lessons of love,mercy,humility,understanding etc.etc. I am not seeing a lot of this in your interactions with people like us.”

    If you read the gospels, the Lord didn’t seem at times to win friends and influence people with loving words and understanding, but with harsh words and straight talking…..but He still loved them. But Jesus always told the truth, and was the harshest to His own Jewish religious leaders, and even to his disciples at times. Look what He said to Peter in Matthew 16 v 23 after Peter ”took Him, and began to rebuke Him, saying, Be it far from you, Lord, this shall not be to you, (that He would die in Jerusalem), But He turned and said to Peter, Get behind Me Satan! You are an offense to me; for you savour not the things that are of God but those that are of men.”

    Now OK, He was addressing Satan, but speaking directly to Peter who Satan apparently was using at that moment, and Peter seemed to often receive a rebuke from Jesus. But He loved Peter just the same.
    There is a time and a place for rebuke, reproof, and correction in righteousness. I personally do not seek to put any Christian down as if I am better, God forbid, we are all saved by grace alone through faith, but we need to help each other see the truth of scriptures if one is erring from them. We cannot afford to be Namby Pamby in these days when Satan is seeking to devour all he can and stop people from knowing the Truth that will set them free.

    The key is the motive…is it done in love? ”Let the love of Jesus dwell in you richly” says the scriptures. I pray it does in all those who name the Name of Christ.

  23. John said

    Luckily as a follower of other deities I need not worry about any of these theological technicalities too much save for my interactions with Christian communities. I was only curious.

    For some odd reason Jared can’t address me without throwing the word “Atheist” in his comments.

  24. Maz said

    John: What would you like us to call you?

  25. Bookert said

    Every conversation finds it way back to abortion. I’m down on abortion, too, but what troubles me almost as much as the practice itself is its cynical use to prop up the anti-abortion careerists. I think you should take a look at that, Stu. It’s fun to shout “babykiller” until your listeners stampede then bask in the affirmation, but the unintended side effect of all this a.m. demagoguery is to silence far more serious conversations. Potential show topic – Is it okay for non-Christians to embrace nanobot technology to prevent conception? What would be the Christian view if it actually works? What will happen when injested nanobots – ten year, egg-destoying, STD-destroying nanobots – become as common as polio shots? Because here’s what will go away – teen pregnancy, teen counseling, all other forms of birth control and conversations about birth control, the abstinence alternative and if God smiles on us, the republican party. Re the original question – Maz answered it in the first frame. Re the reason for the question – it’s another non-too subtle attempt to brand Obama a pretender. yawn. Here’s a potential show topic, and I know it doesn’t stand a chance: Is Obama our only real shot at ending abortion with science? Or if that’s too much for the unimaginative – Does the Lord really work in mysterious ways, or does He check with Dobson first?

    Only a few days left until the election, folks. I feel great because I’ve already voted. I’m spending the next two days driving little old ladies to the polls… to vote for Obama!

  26. John said

    Great post Bookert[grin].
    The idea might be bashed down by some Christians though under the accusation that humanity would be “playing God” too much.
    Anyway, Maz, you can call me a Witch, or a Pagan, or just plane old John. But calling me anything in relation to an Atheist is just wronge. I have more deities than you do, so how could Atheism apply to me? I can understand the you using the “godless” lable on me because you don’t think my deities exist, but this does not cancel out the fact that I still have faith in the theological.
    Is this any help?

  27. F. L. A. said

    Greetings Bookert.
    Have you ever read a short story named “Marching Morons”?
    I sometimes wish that I could vote.

    I call John many things that this sites Moderator would probably not like for me to present here, but I also call him brother and friend[All together now...."AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW"].

  28. Kasha said

    Jared says:
    “I was under the assumption you were agreeing with Kasha. Whenever this person takes scripture they butcher it and extract exactly the understanding they want. It is a works based religion of their own making … parenthetically, we all do this at times and to varying degrees, but this person is really bad.”

    Jesus said (and Jared quoted it)
    ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

    You keep accusing me of believing in a works based religion of my own making, even though I have claimed no such thing. I simply believe that Jesus meant me to literally do things for ‘the least of my brothers’ and in that way will be doing it for Him. Not to earn my salvation – I already have that, and it sounds like you are going to be pretty ticked off when you meet me in heaven, since you think I “butcher scripture” and am “bad” – but out of gratitude FOR my salvation which Christ freely gave.

    Two points. 1 – Jesus rebuked the religious legalists of His day much more strongly and angrily than the sinners.
    2 – I am equally concerned with all human life. Born, unborn, American, Chinese,righteous and sinner. That is why I don’t find it as easy as some of you to vote simply based on which candidate MIGHT appoint judges that MIGHT overturn Roe v Wade when there are so many other ways to prevent abortion and so many other important life issues in this election.

    Jared – you seem to be a bit prideful about your singular knowledge of the scriptures. I am fascinated by your certainty that if I read a passage and it speaks to me differently than it speaks to you, I am obviously butchering it and/or not reading the entire passage or am “bad.” However, when you read a passage, you automatically understand it in its entirety and anyone who disagrees with you is suspect. It must be nice to be so right, especially given all of the religious scholars through the centuries that disagree on aspects of almsot any given passage in the Bible. In the spirit of Reformation Sunday, consider Martin Luther and his disagreements with John Calvin, not to mention both of their disagreements with the Catholic Church. Too bad you weren’t around to share your infallible knowledge. It might have prevented all that bloodshed.

  29. Maz said

    F.L.A: #27. It’s nice to have someone who cares about you isn’t it. Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

  30. F. L. A. said

    Yup.

    “Friends will help you move your furniture.
    REAL FRIENDS will help you move bodies.”

  31. Maz said

    F.L.A: Deffinitely true friendship. So you are incapacitated to some extent.

  32. Paul said

    Kasha , post#28 . The word of God always backs up the word God. So Jared is right it isn’t open to just any iterpretation. I pray that you will learn how to study the word of God.

  33. Paul said

    The book of Judges tells of a time when “every man did that which was right in his own eyes”(judges 17:6)and the nation fell into chaos. There was a complete lack of morality. That’s where we are headed. The poeple trying to lead are’nt trying to do wrong, they are tying to do right.But they’re blind,so what they think is right is actually wrong. When the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch. Make certain you have real wisdom God’s wisdom. Don’t allow the darkness to be your light.

  34. Kasha said

    “The word of God always backs up the word God. So Jared is right it isn’t open to just any iterpretation. I pray that you will learn how to study the word of God.”

    Um, which commentary am I supposed to use to study, if I can’t trust my own Holy Spirit? And if the Bible isn’t open to interpretation, how do you explain all the different denominations of Christianity? Or which one is it that is “right”?

  35. Paul said

    The book of Judges tells of a time when “every man did that which was right in his own eyes”(judges 17:6)and the nation fell into chaos. There was a complete lack of morality. That’s where we are headed. The poeple trying to lead are’nt trying to do wrong, they are tying to do right.But they’re blind,so what they think is right is actually wrong. When the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch. Make certain you have real wisdom God’s wisdom. Don’t allow the darkness to be your light.

  36. Kasha said

    Maz,
    In regards to our discussion of Pharisees and to borrow from a famous comedian here in the States:

    If you interpret the New Testament in light of the Old Testament instead of vice versa, you might be a Pharisee.

    According to Paul, Jesus transcended the law of the Old Testament. He did not do away with it, but everything we thought we knew about it has been changed by the death and resurrection of Christ.

    And if Jesus didn’t want us to “interpret” the Bible, then why did he use parables to teach? Why didn’t he just spell it out for us? Perhaps because moral ambiguity and cognitive dissonance exist in the fallen world, and His parables are flexible enough to allow us to deal with it much more compassionately than trying to force everything into a simple list of dos and don’ts, as if we are kindergarteners instead of mature believers.

  37. Paul said

    kasha, you didn’t read my blog correctly , my point made.

  38. Maz said

    Kash: I simply read the scriptures and let them (all of them OT and NT) harmonise. I have read right through the Bible several times, from Genesis to Revelation. I have studied it according to major doctrines when I had a ministry to reach Jehovahs Witnesses for Christ. And ofcourse I read, as I feel in my spirit, the scriptures daily, a chapter every morning, though there have been times in my past I broke that routine.
    I have at times used commentaries and books to help me with my study but I tend to listen more to what the scriptures are actually saying and trust the Holy Spirit will lead me into all truth. I have been wrong in the past and the Lord has lead me into the truth. I am not so pharisaical to say I know it all now, but what I believe at the moment I will stand on until such times as the Lord opens my eyes to the truth if I am wrong. But I have to receive it from the scriptures and not just listen to every voice out there that has a difference of opinion and a different ‘interpretation’ than mine.

  39. Kasha said

    “kasha, you didn’t read my blog correctly , my point made.”

    Did I not take it literally enough or was the problem my interpretation?

  40. Kasha said

    Maz,
    First of all, do not assume that all of my comments are directed pointedly at you. As you have noticed, there are several others on this blog who regularly accuse me of being heretical to some degree.
    I do listen to other interpretations. I just come to different conclusions than you. And my conclusions ARE supported by other believers, just ones that don’t blog here so much. There is a whole world of biblical scholars and believers out there that don’t line up with the majority of views professed on this site. The commentaries that I am working through at the moment are the “For Everyone” series by NT Wright. I also turn to many others, including the ones put out by the Moody Bible Institute.

    I attend a very conservative rural southern Baptist church, so to think that I only expose myself to a “liberal” theology is erroneous.

    As far as the latest innuendo by someone that I must be “new in the faith”, I have been a Christian for 18 years. I have been growing in the faith that entire time. Every time I read the Bible (which I do daily) my faith grows. It is such a strong faith that I don’t feel like i have to build walls around it to protect it from opposing points of view. I am not afraid of the world, I am concerned for the world. “Perfect faith drives out fear.”

  41. Maz said

    Kash: “Perfect faith drives out fear.”

    I think that is ‘perfect love casts out fear.’

    I am a spirit-filled Pentecostal if that helps you to understand where I am coming from better.

  42. Paul said

    post#39 No I said “any” interpretation not no interpretation. Any time you take scripture out of its proper context you get it wrong. But any time the scripture say’s something one place it will back itself up elswhere.

  43. Maz said

    Paul: That is my point aswell, scripture must harmonize with scripture.

  44. Jared said

    Kasha

    Stick to the scriptures. Personal attacks are of no interest to me and are typical of what non believers do. Beside using Calvin and Luther as references as a Southern Baptist is kind of funny and I am sure my southern baptist friends would use the same arguments you used against me against both of them. Not to put myself anywhere close to these Giants of the Faith. It would be most beneficial to you (not just you … all of us), if you sat down with Calvin’s or Luther’s works.

    As you evidenced in your use of the text that was discussed. You actually put yourself with the condemned group. Did you understand that? I don’t know if you intended to do that, but by your use of the text you implied that those who are saved by the blood of Christ have something to show to the Lord at that day. I think it would behoove you to use some hermeneutics as you read over that text again. As with many of the folks on this forum … they take some line out of context, don’t understand the audience, or the who of the text that they are using and it often, as was the case with your use of this text, very self condemning.

    I also find it interesting that you consider yourself a southern baptist and you say “you don’t believe in a works based religion”. Your soteriology , some loose form of Arminianism, is based on yourself choosing Christ by your own understanding. It tends to emphasize your free will to choose Christ on your own ability or God looking down the corridor of time and seeing you would choose him like Billy Gramms Soteriology. This is works based at its root and the gentlemen, Luther and Calvin, argued vehemently against that theology that erodes our God’s work and the lone glory which belongs to Him.

  45. Jared said

    Kasha,

    Remember the definition of gift. There is a reason why this is the word was used by Luther, Calvin, and others. In fact they emphasized it even further by calling it a free gift.

  46. A said

    I posted this on the previous blog topic and chose to put it here as well. Post numbers refer to the other blog.

    I wholeheartedly agree with what Kasha said in #104 and #107. I respect that many make voting about pro-life candidates verses the other candidates. If that is your passion, then vote according to it. Stop trying to use the Bible as a weapon and accept that MANY other Christ followers disagree.

    I also love the Ragamuffin Gospel (mentioned in #108). Here are a few other suggestions…unChristian, Jim and Casper Go to Church, What’s So Amazing about Grace, Blue Like Jazz, The Cost of Discipleship, and Grace Walk. All of them will challenge your thinking like they did mine. The Bible is my source and what I read the most, however, the words penned by these authors are very helpful when we seek to apply the truths of scripture to our lives.

    I said the following on Friday (post #37):

    Everyone must go vote as their hearts lead them and quit demonizing those who vote differently than them. I am not at all threatened by those who vote differently than me. This is especially true since I know that God is in complete control. If my guy loses, my faith will not weaken and my God will not diminish in power.

    Because of His Sacrifice…

  47. Kash said

    Jared,

    Jesus is speaking to the righteous in Matthew 25:40, not the unrighteous. Read Matthew 25:31 through 46 again. He answers both groups.

    “Stick to the scriptures. Personal attacks are of no interest to me and are typical of what non believers do.”
    and
    “I was under the assumption you were agreeing with Kasha. Whenever this person takes scripture they butcher it and extract exactly the understanding they want. It is a works based religion of their own making … parenthetically, we all do this at times and to varying degrees, but this person is really bad.”

    Am I the only person who sees a contradiction in what is said and what is practiced here?

  48. Paul said

    True government is government according to God’s word, in terms of His law, as a ministry of justice. Those who despise government are, according to Moses (Num. 15:29-31) and St. Peter (II Peter 2:10), guilty of the sin of presumption. Presumption means taking for oneself authority and power for which one has no warrant or right. Whenever we set aside God’s laws concerning life and death, we are guilty of presumption. Presumption is the mark of an unbeliever. Presumption means that we have set ourselves in the place of God and have demanded that life and death be on our terms only.

  49. Jared said

    Kasha

    Here is what you said…

    “When *we* stand before Jesus and he asks, What did you ever do for the poor, the thirsty, the hungry, the oppressed, the prisoner? as in Matt 25, I will be very surprised if the *only answer he is looking for* is “I voted for the person who promised to appoint supreme court judges that will probably overturn Roe v Wade, should it come back up before the supreme court.”

    You will note that the true christians say “Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Look at what the Lord calls them, “The righteous”.

    They have no answer. None, nada, nothing. We can say nothing before a Holy Righteous supreme God. Without Christ we have nothing. Do you see it.

    Kasha says “We” and then refers to the text as if the righteous will give answers.”

    We have no answer to give. You will notice that the Atheists do plenty of “Good works” when measured by the standards of this world. Ted Turner gave a billion dollars to the UN for world hunger a few years ago and Opra does all kinds of perceived “good works”. But they are not, because they are done outside of Christ’s righteousness. Christ can say your works are righteous because He has cleansed them and used them according to His will.

    LOOK again. You are not seeing that the righteous, the ones Christ calls righteous, can’t give any reference to good works, because they have none of their own.

    WE ARE NOT RIGHTEOUS apart from our HIGH PRIEST.

    Isaiah says and Paul repeats “My best works are like filthy rages.”

  50. Kash said

    “Those who despise government are, according to Moses (Num. 15:29-31) and St. Peter (II Peter 2:10), guilty of the sin of presumption.”

    When did I say I despised government?

    “Presumption is the mark of an unbeliever. Presumption means that we have set ourselves in the place of God and have demanded that life and death be on our terms only.”

    Let me make sure I understand you this time, Paul: are you presuming to call me an unbeliever?

    Wow.

    May I just take this opportunity to remind everyone that Christ was condemned to die by the very folks who were the most convinced that they were following the letter of the law, and that His believers were being led astray by this itinerant preacher who had never studied the scriptures the way that they had.

  51. Stanley said

    I dislike government. I wish we didn’t need it, but we do.

  52. Kash said

    And no, I am not comparing myself to Jesus. I’m just trying the best I can to follow His example when I study scripture.

  53. Jared said

    Maybe you don’t understand the text and don’t intend it to say what you are saying, but that is because the text doesn’t say what you are wanting it to say. Look at the who’s and what’s of the text.

    “I will be very surprised if the *only answer he is looking for* is “I voted for the person who promised to appoint supreme court judges that will probably overturn Roe v Wade, should it come back up before the supreme court.”

    Jesus is not looking for an answer based on us. Again we have nothing to say.

  54. Paul said

    post#50 I didn’t specifically call you out, but you might be under conviction ,that is propably why you are so abrasive, the people bloging on your comments are telling you the truth and sometimes that offends but we love the truth and love you, I know that you may reject this but I plead with you to cry out to the Lord in Repentence.

  55. Jared said

    Kasha

    Your not making sense anymore.

    “Presumption is the mark of an unbeliever. Presumption means that we have set ourselves in the place of God and have demanded that life and death be on our terms only.”

    Isn’t this exactly, as you have written above, what pro death abortionist have done.

    Weren’t you arguing that a Christian can in good conscience vote for a pro death candidate or pro homosexual candidate, simply if the candidate calls them self a christian. Isn’t that presuming?

    I presume that when God says “Thou shalt not Murder and Jesus says a man has Murdered in his heart when he hates his brother,” He means exactly what He says and includes all living people.
    Does this make me an unbeliever in your eyes when I presume upon God’s word and take Him at it?

  56. Maz said

    Jared: To be fair to Kash, they weren’t her words, she was quoting Paul (#48).

  57. Jared said

    Paul 54.

    Conviction, I hope. The arguments, weather from scriptural texts or God given logic seem to be deteriorating to self condemnation.

  58. Kash said

    I am being abrasive, Paul? Or am I just making you uncomfortable?

    Jared, I am not saying that those works make me righteous. I am merely saying that since doing those things for the least of my brothers means I am doing them for Jesus, I am going to do them. What is it about my use of that scripture to guide my behavior that so upsets you? I am not reading anything into that passage except that Jesus would like us to feed the poor, visit the sick and those in prison, give water to all who are thirsty and clothes those without clothing. I don’t think its that complicated or hard to understand.

    What is it about what I am saying that so offends you, Jared and Paul and whomever else?

    What is it about trying to expand the conversation beyond Roe v Wade that so offends you and makes you so convinced I am in league with the “bad” people?

    Is it really my interpretation of scripture that upsets you, or the fact that I am going to vote for Barack Obama, who you obviously consider one step away from the antichrist?

  59. ADB said

    Kash and Jared,

    Permit me to but in a little. You are both right I think. It is true that none of us can offer anything in our own defense on judgment day. Aside from Christ’s righteousness all of us are lost. Jared’s point about even atheists doing good works is one I make often in sermons and Bible studies. An atheist can be a good neighbor, and otherwise moral person who gives to charity, but is also totally lost. On the other hand, if one is “in Christ,” that will necessarily result in the very things Jesus spoke of in this portion of Matthew 25. It is impossible to be saved by works, but on the other hand the idea of a Christian whose life does not exhibit such things is alien to the NT as well. The key is that the Christian does these things (visiting the sick, feeding the hungry, etc.) not in order to gain a reward, but simply as a result of who they are in Christ. The folks in Matthew 25 who did these good works were surprised because they had done them without even recognizing it. That’s my two cents worth at least.

    Best Wishes

  60. Jared said

    Yes, I see this now. Sorry, Kasha. I guess, I am confused who believes what here anymore!

  61. Kash said

    Yes Jared, I was responding to Paul who said “Presumption is the mark of an unbeliever. Presumption means that we have set ourselves in the place of God and have demanded that life and death be on our terms only.” He was accusing me of being an unbeliever (see #48 and #54).

    And as I have tried to explain but you continue to ignore is that I am not voting for Obama because of abortion or homosexuality, I am voting for Obama because of the war, poverty, health care, our relationship with the rest of the world, etc. Neither McCain nor Obama strike me as particularly Christ like.

    I have never, nor would I ever, presume to think that a believer who disagreed with me on politics was not a believer. As I noted above, I was responding to the comments of another blogger. When I put things in quotes, they are someone else’s words.

  62. Maz said

    ADB: A good 2 cents worth!

  63. Jared said

    ADB

    Yes, that is it. Fruit is the result of our Love for our God. And it is only Fruit because of Christ!

  64. Kash said

    “Sorry, Kasha. I guess, I am confused who believes what here anymore!”

    Apology accepted. And might I suggest that if we would all start from the working understanding that all of us who claim Jesus as our Lord are believers, and that the political discussions do not affect that, we might not get so confused.

  65. Kash said

    ADB,
    Yes, I agree. The whole discussion started because I used those verses to highlight the issues that I am most concerned about in this election. Since homosexuality and abortion wasn’t on my list, I have been somewhat excoriated among some on this site.

  66. Jared said

    Again Kasha, sorry.

    I agree a believer can vote for Obama (I said Can not should), and I agree neither Obama or McCain provide a good option for a Christian. The question for me is should a Christain, in good knowledgeable conscience vote for either one when measured against the word of God. I really have a hard time seeing either, but especially Obama.

    My question to you is Obama just wants to leave Iraq and head for Afghanistan to kill some Taliban and Osama, by his own words. And where in scripture is world relations that terribly important, and is universal health care a God given right (we are all headed one direction – the grave), and although I dislike poverty (by the way we don’t have any worth speaking of here in the US when compared to the likes of Africa) and I don’t see anything in our Lord’s commandments saying redistribute wealth so everyone is equal – and who’s scale are we using anyway. In fact I see if a man is not willing to work, he should not eat in scripture. This is significantly different than someone who is will to work and is in need, of which the church should be providing for.

    Your issues upon where to vote for Obama seem to be of little relevance when measured against God’s word and looking between the two candidates.

  67. jAsOn said

    Kasha,

    I haven’t read all the comments above so I don’t know if anyone else pointed this out, but God never ordained civil government to oversee taking care of the poor, etc. That’s one of the reasons why many evangelicals are against government programs that use tax money for charity, not because Christians in general have become uncharitable.

  68. Stanley said

    So, because the government helps the poor, which Jesus said was the right thing to do… its wrong because its not a Christian organization? Shouldn’t we just be happy the less fortunate are being helped? Jesus would be.

  69. Paul said

    We have a heavy progressive (or “graduated”) income tax. For the few who may not know, “graduated” means that those who make more money should not only pay more tax based on equal percentage of tax, but should also bear the added burden of an increased percentage. Greater wealth is disproportionately taxed, which penalizes and discourages financial success. The graduated system is unfair, arbitrary, and unbiblical.

  70. Kash said

    Spending tax money on clean air and water, education, welfare and health care helps all of us, just like spending tax money on roads and bridges helps all of us. But that’s just my opinion, it’s not gospel.

  71. Kash said

    Paul says,
    “The graduated system is unfair, arbitrary, and unbiblical.”

    Which tax system exactly does the Bible propose?

  72. Paul said

    In economics, this covenant structure is as follows:

    1. Ownership
    2. Stewardship
    3. Law
    4. Profit and Loss
    5. Economic Growth or Contraction
    Applying these five principles, we get this:

    1. God Owns the World
    2. Man is a Steward
    3. Theft Is Immoral
    4. Edenic Scarcity Has Been Cursed
    5. Covenant-Keepers Inherit in History

    This is a biblical economy not socialism.

  73. Kash said

    I’m still not seeing a biblical tax stucture. Please, enlighten me.

  74. Kash said

    “Your issues upon where to vote for Obama seem to be of little relevance when measured against God’s word and looking between the two candidates.”

    Well, that’s your opinion, and I respect it, but I don’t share it.

  75. Paul said

    “Economic democracy” is the system whereby two wolves and a sheep vote on what to have for dinner.

    Christian socialists and defenders of economic planning by state bureaucrats deeply resent this interpretation of their ethical position. They resent it because it’s accurate.

    When Christianity adheres to the judicial specifics of the Bible, it produces free market capitalism.

    On the other hand, when Christianity rejects the judicial specifics of the Bible, it produces socialism or some politically run hybrid “middle way” between capitalism and socialism, where politicians and bureaucrats make the big decisions about how people’s wealth will be allocated. Economic growth then slows or is reversed. Always.

    Free market capitalism produces long-term economic growth. Socialism and middle-way economic interventionism by the state produce poverty and bureaucracy. If your goal is to keep poor people poor, generation after generation, you should promote socialism. But be sure to call it economic democracy in order to fool the voters.

  76. jAsOn said

    Stan,

    I believe that Jesus is pleased by obedience to His Law, so the simply answer is yes, but I come from the school of thought that it isn’t the governments job to tax for charity. Sure, in the grand scheme of things, poverty is unjust, but the government taking money through taxes to support the physical/mental/emotional well-being of others is also unjust.

  77. jAsOn said

    Stan,

    Also, I don’t believe the civil government is supposed to be a “Christian” organization, and I am happy when the poor and afflicted are helped, but not when the government is the agent for doing so. I think it’s wrong because it shouldn’t be the civil governments purpose.

  78. F. L. A. said

    Maz post#31, in regards to my state of incapacitation, are you referring to what I said within post#29 about my inability to vote?

  79. Stanley said

    I’m pretty sure Jesus would still appreciate the fact that the less fortunate are being taken care of.

  80. Maz said

    F.L.A: No. It was what you said in #30 ”REAL FRIENDS will help you move bodies.”

  81. Maz said

    Stanley: He certainly would. As long as they are genuinely in need.

  82. Jared said

    Paul …

    You got it right.

    My wife and I choose to home school our kids for several reasons, but I have to pay a bunch of money so a ton of other kids can go to public schools that generally teach a world view I believe is in direct conflict with my God’s word. I have no recourse and can’t get any of my money back to help my own children.

    Talk about stealing. I’m not even apposed to helping those who are in need of things like education although I don’t think the state should be involved in it and indoctrinating the children with a worldview/religion that is contradictory to my own, with my money. Fine if individuals want to pay for that worldview being taught to their children, but I would rather not be forced to pay for it. And that is just one example of many!

    I know a lot of the folks here don’t care for the bible and God’s law, but it would be somewhat advantageous if we could just follow the constitution as it was founded. There is even a way to change it and some of it likely needs changed. And yet, no one wants to follow that either. Ultimately, as society leaves God, and any sense of absolute truth that accompanies adherence to His word, everything becomes relative, an opinion, and even the meaning of words within the language, are lost. People loose there ability to think, coherently make arguments, and life becomes of little value.

    At this point we need a miracle! I guess we always have it just seems as pressing as ever.

    Amazing.

  83. F. L. A. said

    Maz, I was just making use of a humorous quote.
    There is no need for moving bodies around within my domain[and I would need no help in the matter regardless, for I am very strong].
    Bodies are eaten within the day[or night, as the case may be].

  84. Maz said

    F.L.A: I see.

  85. Paul said

    Jared you are right we do need a miracle. But until then we just keep fighting the good fight.

  86. Jeff42 said

    Something to consider:

    “Being right on one issue doesn’t qualify a person to be president, but being wrong on one issue can certainly disqualify a person from being president.”

    If the issue is of vital importance, it can serve as a basis for your vote. There is no more important issue than life. Vote for the protection of life, especially innocent human life in the womb. All life is to be protected, especially the most vulnerable among us. We will be held accountable for how we exercise this freedom we enjoy in the USA.

  87. Stripe said

    Great show. Listening in Taiwan via BEL archive. Good to hear the truth :)

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