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Today’s Issues, From a Biblical Perspective!

Today’s Guest: Mitt Romney

Posted by truthtalklive on April 24, 2007

Tuesday, April 24th and Wednesday, April 25th shows

Question: Should a Christian vote for a Mormon for President?

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254 Responses to “Today’s Guest: Mitt Romney”

  1. Anonymous said

    ALOHA From Junction City , Oregon.
    We have 4 stop light and a MacDonalds.
    Your question was, “Could a Christen vote for a Mormon”… That is a oxymoron. The name of the church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”. Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church.
    Andy Chapin liltigerboy13@hotmail.com. ITS MITT TIME!

  2. 1944Canucks said

    Which Jesus Christ would that be? Would it be the supposed Jesus that visited Joesph Smith a known drunkard and whoremonger? As if that isn’t enough, we are talking about the mormon church that used to have the special section in the temple for the people of color. Or the church that allowed you to have as many wives as you wanted until another prophet comes forward to change it.

    This question really shouldn’t be about whether a Christian should vote for a mormon. To be honest, politicians will not solve the problems of this world only Jesus Christ can do that. Even with all the inconsistencies of the Mormon Church I would probably vote for a Mormon canidate because, while I believe that the mislead and worship a false Christ, they share my beliefs social and economically in the political realm.

  3. Shauna Johnson said

    There are various differences in Christian faith. So many different pastors preaching so many different things. Its the basic principals that unify christians as a whole as being “Christians”. Guess the “Christian” public should ask themselves, does he believe in Christ? Are the values he lives by something you would support? Does he just give mouth service about values or does he live them? If people are worried about him being Mormon, perhaps they should look at his past political record and see how that has effected his politics thus far!
    There are so much more things to worry about such as Honesty and Virtue.

  4. Shauna Johnson said

    You have elected Christians in the past who didnt know what Honety and Virtue were, and even in his most sacred of covenents of family the words Honesty and Virtue never applied.

  5. jsweeney said

    Mormonism is inherantly deceitful and Romney, as a missionary and leader within his church, is at the very least guilty of
    affirming and proliferating the bizarre and demonstrably-false claims of Joseph Smith and his followers. Christians should
    not be cajoled into voting for someone who demonstrates such poor judgement and lack of discernment.

  6. Anonymous said

    Something to think about:

    Remember the story/parable of the Good Samaritan? A legitimate question is: “Who was more “Christian”, according to the message Jesus was trying to deliver?” Is it the good Samaritan (who was not of the House of Israel, hence “non-Christian”), the Levite or the priest – the “supposed” Christians?

    Shall we use one of Jesus’ own admonitions as a guide? – “By their fruits, ye shall know them”?
    Now using the same principles in the Good Samaritan story, let’s put Romney Giuliani McCain and Gingrich on at least a spouse fidelity scale with the question: Who is the real ” Christian? – The Mormon????? …………OBVIOUSLY!!!

  7. manaen said

    I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell. (2 Nephi 33:6)

  8. Brad said

    One needs only to compare the attributes of God and Jesus, as thought of by Mormonism and Christianity, to see that they are entirely different. The God and Jesus worshiped in Mormonism IS NOT the same God and Jesus that Christians who believe solely in the Bible worship. Because their attributes are entirely different.

    I’m not saying Romney is an immoral person – on the contrary, his morals line up very well with what I believe. He’s pro-life, against gay marriage, against stem-cell research, etc… But what I’m still struggling with is that he is a Mormon, and I’m still praying and searching the Bible to see what God would have me vote, should he become the republican candidate.

    I think he did a good job of side-stepping the whole religion issue on Stu’s show yesterday. I’m sure he’s been told by his political advisors, or is smart enough to know himself, that he shouldn’t discuss it, that it can hurt him in the polls. What is a little disappointing about that is, even though I know his beliefs are different than mine, I wonder how convicted he really is of them, if he won’t discuss them in public.

  9. Anonymous said

    Please ask Mr. Romney if his election as President would be a step towards becoming a god?

    …remember Mormons teach “as man is, god once was and as god is, man may become”…

    Hello ! this is NOT Christian doctrine

  10. Anonymous said

    PLEASE support Utah Partnership for Christ

    http://www.upfc.org

    Take the TRUE Gospel to Utah !
    (and to your Mormon neighbors where you live)

  11. Anonymous said

    the concept that someone is “more Christian” because of outward righteousness is akin to a works-based faith.

    Recall that we are saved by faith alone and not by works.

    A truth Christian has the correct Biblical faith that compels him/her to good works.

    Many non-Christians do good things. But they are not saved.

    Remember Galatians 1:8
    “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”

    Mormons DO NOT believe in the TRINITY….they teach another Gospel

  12. Anonymous said

    The Book of Abraham provides the ONLY basis for some LDS doctrines, including the plurality of gods,the exaltation of man, priesthood, and pre-mortal existence.

    Smith’s interpretation of this text can be proven quite easily to be utterly and completely FALSE. So much for his prophetic abilities !

  13. Anonymous said

    On “works-based faith”:

    Shall we purge the “Faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD” reference from the Bible therefore?

    Also TRINITY is NOT a Biblical concept! It’s a Creedal one!

  14. Brad said

    “On “works-based faith”:

    Shall we purge the “Faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD” reference from the Bible therefore?”

    Nope. James 2 means what it says. It just doesn’t mean what you might think it means. It means that works are the OUTWARD evidence of an INWARD change that has ALREADY occurred. The change doesn’t occur BECAUSE of the works, rather the works are present BECAUSE of the change.

    “Also TRINITY is NOT a Biblical concept! It’s a Creedal one!”

    Really? What about John 1:1? Exodus 3:14? John 8:58? Acts 5:3-4? All these working in conjunction show that God is used interchangeably throughout the Bible with respect to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And there are numerous other verses, not just these, that can and do show that. The Trinity is most definitely shown in the Bible.

  15. Brian said

    I just heard another fanatic say that Mormons want their people in control of the whole country. Um, dear, isn’t that the same goal that the Christian Conservatives have? I thought it was the object of each side to have control? Blinded by fear and hate is not the way to enter Heaven. Looking back at history, I think it’s safe to say that we’ve had worse things than Mormons in the White House.

  16. Anonymous said

    I grant that Mormons have beliefs that are inconsistent with traditional Christian doctrine, but we better be careful here. By the standards of many listeners who profess to revere the founding fathers, none of the first three presidents would be electable. Washington did attend church regularly, but was a very active Freemason; Adams and Jefferson were both Unitarian deists. By the way of the five man committee that drafted the Declaration of Independence at least three were not Christian. Just food for thought. (By the way I have a Master of Divinity and a Masters in History).

  17. Robert said

    None of the current front running candidates for president in either party are true Christians. Some of them may pay lip service to a faith in Christ similar to evangelical Christians, but it is lip service only. Therfore, all of the candidates are in essence pagans.

    So it is really a matter for evangelical Christians to choose which of these pagans to vote for. I would rather vote for a Mormon that shares my views on issues and would do a good job running the country than a lip service “Christian” whose views I do not share.

  18. Amanda Bunton said

    Stu, as a Mormon for 30 years, I applaud you for having these shows and for presenting logical comments to your callers–something which your guest today failed to do. I was raised Presbyterian with 5 generations of preachers on each side and John Knox the Reformer in the early branches of my family tree.I can assure you that Mormons are Bible-based Christians. One cannot even accept the Book of Mormon without accepting and believing in the Bible. In fact, I have found that we believe it more literally than any of my Christian friends who turn to the explanations of the Bible given by the councils of men in the days of Constantine rather than to the Bible to define the nature of the Godhead. (Godhead, not “Trinity,” is the Biblical term.)The Mormon faith as presented by normally rational and truth-seeking Christians on your shows is in no way accurate or complete. The criticisms and spirit in which they are given are so parallel to the approaches of the Pharisees and Sadducees against Jesus it isn’t even funny.
    Mitt takes the stand of not being a religious spokesperson for the Church only because he has no authority to be so. The Church refuses to engage itself in politics except on occasional moral issues like ERA or abortion. Why? Because it would divert them from using all of their time and resources in proclaiming and establishing the gospel of Jesus Christ in all nations and in helping the poor and afflicted both in and out of the Church. It refuses to endorse political candidates–even Mitt Romney. Instead, it encourages members to be actively engaged in politics according to their own beliefs and inspiration.
    On the same plain, Mitt realizes he has no authority to speak for the Church theologically and would offend the membership if he did in any way but in general terms. It would also divert his time and energy which is being spent in running a political campaign. (Only 11 or 12 books are even Church–endorsed while millions are written by faithful Mormons.)It would take so much more time than he has to define our doctrines after all the ridiculous and inaccurate ways they have been defined by your many guests along the way–including the “former member” today who doesn’t even have a grasp upon the basics of the LDS religion. Genuine “Mormons” are always at the mercy of responding to the sensational quirky questions instead of sharing our reality as we know it. If you ever want to do a real show with real Mormons who cannot speak for the church but can speak for themselves and their honest understanding as Mormons, please contact me: Amanda Bunton at 1335 Cemetery Road, Walnut Cove, NC 27052, and maybe we can put together an objective show.
    P.S. Your guests are so “hot” to talk about sensational things like Heavenly Father having sex with Mary (NOT!), things that one would never hear taught over the pulpit and which were never official church doctrine that you never get to discuss either the milk or meat of the gospel. (We can do both, but it’s often a waste of time.) C.S. Lewis had a much better grasp of concpets like the “deification of man,” for instance, than your Christian callers, and we would explain our belief exactly as he did: it’s called “becoming Christlike.” “Be ye perfect (rather,”complete,” in the original Greek), even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” Anything more than that (such as “creating one’s own planets in the future”) will be neither proven nor disproven through the Bible but is taken on faith and only by Mormons. It also is never discussed in church because so few specifics have been given by God– even in latter-day revelation. It is certainly no ego trip and does not serve as a spiritual enticement in the least.
    Again, thanks for allowing your listeners to give feedback. I enjoy your show and listen to it whenever I can. While I can’t say much for your anti-Mormon guests, you at least try to be objective.
    Amanda Bunton

  19. Amanda Bunton said

    PS Amanda Says: I did not even mean to say that “creating one’s own planet is taken on faith by members of the LDS church because it is not in our standard works– only the possibility of spirit creation in celestial marriages in the celestial kingdom. (I’ve read way too much anti-Mormon literature!

  20. Nate Carter said

    Are Mormons Christians???

    What’s the actual name of the church? The Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

    Walk into any Mormon church and who is the centerpiece of every painting throughout the church? Jesus Christ.

    The Mormon’s broadcast their semi-annual church conference on national television in April and October. (BYU TV – on Dish Network and DirecTV and on most Cable TV systems – check your local listings). Give it a listen – decide for yourself if we’re Christian or not.

  21. Brad said

    Amanda, I have a few questions for you:

    1) Did God have a father Himself?

    2) If yes, did that father have a father as well?

    3) Where did God originate?

    4) Are Jesus and Lucifer half-brothers?

    5) Are Jesus and God divinely equal?

    6) Was Jesus God’s only son?

    7) Is salvation based solely on faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior, or is anything else required?

    Thanks.

  22. Brad said

    Nate,

    I would ask the same questions of you as I do of Amanda above.

    Thanks.

  23. Anonymous said

    Is there a courageous Mormon out there who will address the issue of Joseph Smith’s completely false interpretation of the Book of Abraham?

    If he gave a false interpretation (which he most definitely did), then he is a false prophet.

  24. Anonymous said

    Regarding the use of the title “Church of Jesus Christ” in the LDS church. This seems to be the claim used by many Mormons that they are a Christian church.

    If the name alone makes it a Christian church, then maybe some of you would like to follow
    Jose Luis de JESUS Miranda ! He says that he is God, and his followers believe him. And yes, he uses the name of Jesus…

    Clearly, the name itself means nothing unless we understand what Jesus you are talking about.

    If you are talking about a “Jesus” conceived by physical union between a god with the body of a man, or if you are talking about a “Jesus” who is the brother of Lucifer (!), then you are not even close to the Biblical Jesus.

    Remember this…Jesus warned that many would call out to him as “Lord, Lord” only to be told to depart from Him, for he never knew them.

    Just using His name means nothing.

  25. Anonymous said

    To my Mormon friends:

    Do you believe this (below)?

    “No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.”

    –Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289

    —or this———————-

    “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through ME.”
    (Jesus, John14:6)

    It’s your call–which road will YOU choose?

  26. Anonymous said

    The “gospel” of The Book of Mormon is CLEARLY NOT the Gospel of the Bible

    Just one example…

    3 Nephi 12:2 and Moroni 8:11, state that remission of sins is the result of baptism, while the Bible states remission of sins is by faith alone (Acts 10:43; 16:30, 31). Salvation by baptism according to the Mormon view is salvation by works and the Bible emphatically says salvation is “not of works” but “through faith” (Eph. 2:8,9).

  27. Anonymous said

    Stu, although I enjoy your program on the drive home from work, I just wish you’d stop wasting so much time getting to the meat of it. You spend more time introducing the topic/guest than you do with the point of the entire program. I’m usually home by the time you’re just winding up your intro, and I’ve got to get dinner on the table.
    Sandy in Richmond

  28. Anonymous said

    The concept of a triune God is a thoroughly Biblical concept.

    It’s the reverse of the situation of the nominal “Jesus Christ” usage in the LDS church.

    In the Bible, the trinitarian concept is replete, although the explicit statement “trinity” is not used.

    In the LDS church, “Jesus Christ” is explicitly used, but the Biblical concept of Christ is missing

  29. Amanda said

    From Amanda To Brad and many “Anonymouses”:
    Most all of your comments are so pumped from the things you’ve read and been told about the church that no answer–even though it be entirely biblical–would satisfy you. I know because I’ve spent a couple years correspoinding with a few individuals who had already made up their minds from the poison they’d been fed and were never open to read the Bible “for all it’s worth” ( as Hank would say.) It’s easy to pull one scripture out of the Bible and twist it or base your entire theology on it while sweeping many others under the carpet. I needed a theology that was consistent with the entire Bible and even more importantly, a testimony of its truthfulness from God who has promised us the Holy Ghost.
    This is why we have the Book of Mormon, a second witness and testimony of Christ, the Bible, and the power of prayer.”Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good,” said Paul. “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” (Jesus)
    “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God..and it shall be given him.” (James 1:5)
    One cannot “prove,” “do,” and “ask” if he thinks he already knows all the answers about the LDS faith and is not willing to trust that God can do his own work and witness through the avenues He has given us.
    I would answer questions anytime from genuine truth seekers.If we are willing to search and read, God will lead us, but if we are standing “valiantly” to fight even the Savior Himself should He try to open our minds to a fuller understanding and verification of His own gospel revealed in the meridian of time, we would be wasting our time. Woe unto him who calls good evil and evil good!
    Does any man or preacher have the authority to shut the mouth of God and say He will never speak again to us through a living prophet? (Amos 3:7) As Jesus directed, I have looked at the fruits of the church and its leaders for 30 years now and can testify they are good.
    See http://www.Mormon.org and http://www.lds.org for general and fairly brief explanations of our beliefs. Better yet, get a Book of Mormon, read it PRAYERFULLY to see if it isn’t written in the same Spirit as the Bible–through the Holy Ghost acting upon ancient apostles– brought forth especially for our day and time to help us stand strong against the wiles of Satan in the latter days. It puts to rest all contention about the doctrine of Jesus Christ.
    PS I do believe in the Godhead (and I’m not opposed to the word “Trinity” if it is used to substantiate the clear biblical evidences in the Bible that it consists of 3 separate and glorious individuals. This is something the early Christian church fathers understood before the Greek influence pervaded the church as evidenced later in the Nicene Creed and Constantine’s view of the Father and Son.

  30. Brad said

    Amanda,

    All I did was ask 7 fairly simple questions of you, regarding your beliefs. It sounds as if you have answers to them, but don’t want to share them, b/c you don’t think it could convince me (or others).

    What I would challenge you to do is to just be honest and answer them according to your beliefs. If you are grounded in your faith and know why you believe what you believe, then nothing I might say will sway you. But, I would enjoy the chance to at least discuss the answers with you.

    Thanks.

  31. RonPaulforPresident said

    It doesn’t matter if the candidate is Mormon, Catholic, Muslim, Jew, or Protestant. In the end, they all take the same oath of office. The only candidate running that I believe will uphold his oath of office is Rep. Ron Paul.
    http://ronpaul2008.com/
    http://ronpaulitics.com/
    Ron Paul is pro-life. As a specialist in obstetrics/gynecology, he has delivered more than 4,000 babies. Dr. Paul is not just an opponent of partial-birth abortion; he is an opponent of abortion itself. He is also opposed to federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance109.html

    Mitt Romney has changed his stance on abortion several times, it seems only when it benefits him. It either is a woman’s choice or it isn’t. It either is murder or it isn’t.

    Romney on abortion then…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_w9pquznG4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzZC92IXHyw

  32. Anonymous said

    WWJV4= Who Would Jesus Vote 4???
    A mormon? I doubt it. Not if their was a true Christian on the ballot. Talking primaries here gang.
    IF none available in general election, maybe….. Who would the option be? A “CINO” (Christian in Name Only? aka Hillary Rodham. If those were my two options, I’ll go for the pro-life, almost X-ian over a person who only values what is profitable for her politically.

    artie

  33. cubsrnumber said

    Adam Martin:
    Should a Christian vote for a Mormon? I can honestly say that I have no problem with Mormons. I am a southern baptist however one of my best friends is Mormon. I don’t believe what she believes in many different aspects. However, whether or not a Christian should vote for a Mormon shouldn’t be the main question here. As Christians today, should we base our political decisions on beliefs, or morals? Because my friend probably is one of the best girls you will find at our high school, as far as morals and values. Her opinions and beliefs may differ from my own, but in the world we live in today, I’ll take a morally sound candidate, who I could trust to make the right decision for our country, any day over someone who doesn’t have any morals or beliefs. Obviously if their is a TRUE CHRISTIAN on the ballot, he will have my vote first.

  34. RonPaulforPresident said

    Will Ron Paul Be the Candidate of the Christian Right?

    …By the Christian Right’s own criteria, their candidate ought to be Ron Paul.

    Ron Paul is a man of faith. He is a Protestant Christian and a regular churchgoer.

    Ron Paul is pro-life. As a specialist in obstetrics/gynecology, he has delivered more than 4,000 babies. Dr. Paul is not just an opponent of partial-birth abortion; he is an opponent of abortion itself. He is also opposed to federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.

    Ron Paul is a believer in family values. Unlike many Christian “leaders” and Republican politicians who have admitted to adulterous affairs and/or been married multiple times, Dr. Paul has been married to the same woman for fifty years. He and his wife have been blessed with five children and seventeen grandchildren.

    Read this article if you are looking for a Christian to support.
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance109.html

    Ron Paul links:
    http://ronpaul2008.com/
    http://ronpaulitics.com/

  35. Anonymous said

    i dont understand how a bible believing christian could vote 4 a mormon?i love the mormon people and feel sorry they have been miss lead.the ones claiming moral issues,if they are willing to be decietfull about God do u think they wouldnt be to us.im not buying in to what he is selling.

  36. Anonymous said

    wow!my fellow christians,what are some of you thinking?i was so surprised howmany said they would vote 4 him.and stu i love you and your show but you sounded like a cheerleader for him.would jesus vote for a mormon?remember they preach another jesus then the one in the bible.he comes from a decietfull church there for i must asume he is also.they all tell us what we want to here till they are in the white house.PLEASE christians dont be decieved!turn to the word and see what the word says and pray.God bless all of you.And remember to pray that all the mormons will come to serve the one true God!

  37. anangelfromheaven said

    I am so glad a Mormon will be on the show. Way to go, Amanda!

    Looking at original Mormon literature is very helpful, because that is where scholars go to argue against Mormonism. What someone tells you is not as important as what the original literature says. Having said that, if a Mormon (bishop or such) says they have received a revelation from God, then that means that what was said in literature before is irrelevant.

    For that reason, I believe that divine revelation is the key to Mormonism. Afterall, God is still learning. Is that true?

    Anyway, go for it, Amanda!!

  38. Kiri said

    What makes me mad about Morminism is how they knowingly deceive you about what they believe in.

    They are told what to say to certain responses and if they can’t answer, they walk away. They tell you they believe in the Trinity, knowing that their trinity is different from the one of Christians.

    If asked if they are Christians, they say, “Yes, we believe in Jesus Christ!!!”

    Yeah? So do the demons, and they fear His name.

    They also love to shoot the messenger if someone has asserted a claim against mormonism. They can’t argue.

    Anyway, I hate to be treated as a fool, so Mormons – please get some facts. CHRISTIANS have facts (believe it or not!!)

  39. Amanda said

    To Brad from Amanda:
    The only question you asked which is pertinent to my and your salvation and about which the Bible speaks definitively was number 7: Is salvation based soley on faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior, or is anything else required?
    May I ask you a question? When Jesus was questioned by the lawyer who asked what he should do to inherit eternal life, our Savior aked him what the law said, and it was, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart…soul..and strength…and mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.
    Jesus said, “This do, and thou shalt live.”
    When they agreed that loving God and man is what was needed to gain eternal life, did they mean in word only? or in mind only? Real love is a doing thing just as real faith is a doing thing. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, neither is important or effective in leading us to salvation. With Christ, both are always present and evident in a Christian’s life–the loving and the doing.

  40. joey t said

    angelfromheaven: “Afterall, God is still learning. Is that true?” is a very concerning thing to say. It made chills go up my spine wondering what God thinks of the comment you’ve made here? I would repent, if I were you. Also, how can a Christian possibly vote for a Mormon and feel good about it? There are other candidates that may not have as good of a chance, but at least you can feel good about your vote as a Christian. Bottom line: Mormonism is a cult, plain and simple. You can debate all you want, but the Truth will come out when the Lord returns, which will be very soon, hopefully!

  41. Anonymous said

    Dear Amanda:

    You are woefully deceived. You are fighting for a belief system that will crumble. It simply doesn’t pass the test.
    Please check out
    http://www.mormonchallenge.com

  42. Anonymous said

    Amanda writes: “…. we have the Book of Mormon, a second witness and testimony of Christ, the Bible, and the power of prayer.

    But does the Book of Mormon support the Bible or does it contradict it? Is the Book of Mormon a reliable book?

    Here is one example of how it contradicts the Bible (I would be happy to provide many other examples)….

    Micah 5:2 and Matt. 2:1, state Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem. But The Book of Mormon in Alma 7:9, 10, clearly states, “the Son of God…shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem.” Jerusalem is a city (I Nephi 1:4) and the contradiction is irreconcilable.

    HELLO AMANDA AND ALL MORMONS…..
    Which book do you believe????

    You can’t have it both ways and have the TRUTH !!!!!!!!!!!!!

  43. Anonymous said

    Amanda writes..”.. get a Book of Mormon, read it PRAYERFULLY to see if it isn’t written in the same Spirit as the Bible..”

    First, we want to know that it was written under the direction of the same Spirit (a member of the Trinity, not one of 3 distinct individuals).

    Secondly, “prayerfully consider..” cannot be an excuse to empty our brains of the OVERWHELMING evidence that Mormon teachings are false. We don’t engage in a mindless meditation when the evidence speaks so clearly that Mormonism is a false religion.

  44. Brad said

    Amanda,

    You said that “the only question you asked which is pertinent to my and your salvation and about which the Bible speaks definitively was number 7: Is salvation based soley on faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior, or is anything else required?” First off, I simply asked you 7 questions, easy questions to answer if you know what you believe. I never mentioned whether they were pertinent or not to either of our salvation – you made that distinction yourself. And you then go on to not only ignore the other 6 questions (which aren’t hard to answer), but give a question as your answer for the 7th question you DID choose to address. Mormons can’t stand it when Christians throw a single scripture at them, b/c they will say you’re not looking at everything, but they love to answer the Christian’s questions with single scriptures, b/c that’s really the only way they can attempt to prove their point.

    All the questions I asked you (except for #3), can be answered either “yes” or “no”. I’m not asking even for an explanation, just a “yes” or “no.” Because either you believe yes or no – there is no maybe for any of the questions I answered. What this does is put you on the spot, I realize, but I think it brings to light some big issues between Mormonism and Christianity.

    I know Mormons rely on the “burning in the bosom”, which they say is brought about by the Holy Ghost. But that’s just a feeling – the facts speak otherwise about the Mormon religion. Christianity – yes, we have faith, but the Bible is completely backed up by factual evidence – historical, scientific, logical – and it can be backed up by both Christian and non-Christian sources. We have manuscript evidence of nearly all the text dating back quite early, a lot earlier than the 1800′s or so when Mormonism first came around. You can find all the people groups in the Bible and trace them archaeologically – can you credibly do the same with Mormonism? Other people witnessed Jesus Christ, His miracles and His claims. How many people witnessed Joseph Smith see Moroni? You’re taking Joseph Smith’s word for a lot, aren’t you?

    Anyone can feel a “burning in their bosom” and say it is from God. I know Mormons are instructed to follow their literature and adhere to the teachings, and ignore the rest of us. It’s not that much different than Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    Again, I’d love to hear your “yes” or “no” responses to the 7 easy questions I asked below:

    1) Did God have a father Himself?

    2) If yes, did that father have a father as well?

    3) Where did God originate?

    4) Are Jesus and Lucifer half-brothers?

    5) Are Jesus and God divinely equal?

    6) Was Jesus God’s only son?

    7) Is salvation based solely on faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior, or is anything else required?

    Thanks.

  45. Brad said

    Angelfromheaven,

    You said that “looking at original Mormon literature is very helpful, because that is where scholars go to argue against Mormonism. What someone tells you is not as important as what the original literature says. Having said that, if a Mormon (bishop or such) says they have received a revelation from God, then that means that what was said in literature before is irrelevant.”

    Do you see the direct contradiction in what you just said? You say that “what someone tells you is not as important as what the original literature says”, but then say that if “a Mormon (bishop or such) says they have received a revelation from God, then that means that what was said in literature before is irrelevant.” Which is it? If your literature can be rendered irrelevant just b/c someone SAYS they have received a revelation from God, why have any literature to base anything on at all? At that point, you are placing a lot of trust in someone who could be leading you astray, telling you they’ve received a revelation when maybe they haven’t, but they’re using that tagline as a means to change what they don’t like. Based on what you say, the Mormon church has NO GUARD against that, if supposed current revelation overrides your own literature!!

    As Christians, we have God’s Word – it is unchanging and eternal, and “divine revelations”, even though many have claimed to have received them, haven’t changed that fact.

    You also say that “for that reason, I believe that divine revelation is the key to Mormonism. Afterall, God is still learning. Is that true?”

    There is absolutely NO basis in the Bible for this. God is omniscient (all-knowing), and as such, there would be nothing to learn. If there is something for Him to learn, that means He’s not omniscient, which would be in direct contrast to the Bible.

  46. Anonymous said

    “…the Bible is completely backed up by factual evidence – historical, scientific, logical – and it can be backed up by both Christian and non-Christian sources.” (Brad)

    You can’t prove that invisible beings exist scientifically, can you?

    What ever happened to coming to faith in Jesus as a child would?

  47. Brad said

    “…the Bible is completely backed up by factual evidence – historical, scientific, logical – and it can be backed up by both Christian and non-Christian sources.” (Brad)

    You can’t prove that invisible beings exist scientifically, can you?

    What ever happened to coming to faith in Jesus as a child would?”

    Please don’t misunderstand me, I don’t mean to take faith out of the mix by any means. I didn’t say that everything can be proven scientifically, only that everything can be proven either historically, scientifically or logically, and I believe that. I believe in God by faith, but I can also come to a logical conclusion that God exists.

    But I agree – we still must have childlike faith!

  48. Amanda said

    Oh Boy!
    Again, my point that discussions with people poisoned by anti-Mormon literature (and there is nothing new under the sun there, judging by many of your commments)instead of people who actually want to know something about the Church is pointless. I could spend all day answering loaded questions, and it would all be wasted time. I have a life, and no one ever serves the Lord by arguing fruitlessly about His gospel or another’s beliefs. Contention is of the devil, and some of these comments are dripping with it.(What does that say about their authors?)
    I can tell you until the cows come home that I believe God is omniscient and still not convince you that I do. I could tell you that the “burning of the bosom” is exactly what the two disciples on the road to Emmaus felt when Christ taught them (Luke 24:32) and that the Holy Ghost doesn’t always work with individuals in the exact same way, and it wouldn’t make any difference. I could even tell you that at least while He was on the earth, Jesus taught by word and action that His Father was greater than He; but what’s the point?
    I could tell Brad that there are many, many Bible scriptures supporting how I answered his question about faith and works, but he would find a way to quote one or two and sweep the others under the carpet. How much clearer could Jesus be than when he said in Matt. 7:21, “Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter…but he that doeth….” I thought I was using the most self-evident scriptures for you to save us time. I would answer Brad’s first three questions if the Lord had revealed anything definitive about that, but the answers are not found even in LDS scripture although people–even latter day prophets, have used logic and opinion to speculate, but it remains that– speculation, not doctrine. The answer to number 4 is neither here nor there to you since our belief comes from latter day revelation which you do not accept. The Bible mentions that Lucifer (“light bearer”) was a son of the morning,according to Isaiah 14:12, who fell from heaven. Whether more knowledge, like that of Satan being a spirit brother of “the only Begotten” on the earth (Jesus Christ) has been revealed by revelation through Joseph Smith is irrelevant to you and others unless one believes or knows the source of that revelation is God. It is not the milk of the gospel.
    Lastly, I could tell you that I often tell people I’m from Winston Salem although I’m really from Walnut Cove now. (I’m 10 minutes from Winston.) People from Cary often say they are from Raleigh to outsiders–just because Raleigh is larger and recognizeable to most people. Do you not think that Joseph Smith didn’t know that Jesus was born in Bethlehem? If he hadn’t been translating the plates by the gift and power of God, he would have preferred to give people one less knit to pick by writing in “Bethlehem” at that spot. “At Jerusalem” (notice the BOM didn’t say “in Jerusalem”) easily includes the area around Jerusalem.
    If you are content to declare that we believe in a different Jesus than the one of the Bible and say there is no evidence for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, then you are most likely not ready to read the Book of Mormon, and ask of God. And that’s okay.God’s internal evidence in this book which I believe with all my heart speaks as strongly as external evidence, and witness of the Holy Ghost far exceeds the evidences of the world. The Bible tells us that we cannot even say Jesus is Lord BUT by the Holy Ghost. And if the BOM had been around as long as the Bibe, you would see a lot more outward evidence.As it is, you are most mistaken to say there is none.

    There is so much more to say and share, but as you see,it is impossible to go into much detail here without taking far too much space than I should. Truth seekers will go find a Book of Mormon to learn about the church or talk to the missionaries, not the self-proclaimed authorities I’ve read here or those who make a living from defaming the Church.
    If Jesus’church,established and founded upon prophets and apostles, in his day was called a “cult” by the people then, who are we to complain at the insults hurled today? The Church was restored after the Book of Mormon was published as part of the “restitution of all things,” (see Acts 3:21) and it is an honor to be a part of it as well as to suffer insults.
    Back to my painting and shopping! It’s been fun though. Thanks for your interest. PBS is having a very in depth, NON-MORMON- produced “expose-all” on the Church this coming Monday night. I hear it won’t have the same old out-dated, long ago proved inaccurate criticisms about the church, but at least deals with reality. I look forward to it although I won’t like or believe all of it, I’m sure.
    Amanda

  49. Amanda said

    PS to Brad:
    I thought and still think “angelfromheaven” was on your team, based upon the comment about God learning–which I thought was a misplaced jab!

  50. Brad said

    “If you are content to declare that we believe in a different Jesus than the one of the Bible and say there is no evidence for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, then you are most likely not ready to read the Book of Mormon, and ask of God.” (Amanda)

    That’s correct, I am content to declare just that.

    “And if the BOM had been around as long as the Bible, you would see a lot more outward evidence.As it is, you are most mistaken to say there is none.” (Amanda)

    The fact that the BOM hasn’t been around as long should cast some doubt on it, even to the most staunch Mormon. If God has been around the whole time, and the Bible has been around as long as it has, why not the BOM?

    Evidence has been shown that DISPROVES Smith’s claims, repeatedly. And no evidence has been shown that proves any of them. This is in complete contrast to the Bible, for which no evidence has been produced to disprove, and evidence has been produced to prove. It’s a shocking contrast.

    I will continue to pray for you, as I do for all Mormons and other religions, that everyone will come to a true and saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, the one of the Bible, and not the false one of the BOM.

  51. Anonymous said

    Will a Mormon please address Joseph Smith’s false interpretation of the “book of Abraham”.

    Without any question, he was a fasle prohet.

  52. Anonymous said

    Mormonism is a Polytheistic, Pagan religion.
    Check out the data..

    “Gods exist and we had better strive to prepare to be one with them.”{from Discourses of Brigham Young, page 351]

    “In the beginning the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it.”
    [from The Journal of Discourses, Volume VI, page 3. ]

    “Each of these gods, including Jesus Christ and His Father, being in possession of not merely an organized spirit but a glorious body of flesh and bone…”
    [from Key to the Science of Theology, page 42, by Parley Pratt.23]

    “Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say this is a very strange God anyhow…all are to be crammed into one God.” [from Joseph Smith's Teaching, page 55, by E.F. Parry]

    “We believe in the plurality of Gods.”
    [from Brigham Roberts in Mormon Doctrine of Deity, page 11 ]

    In the Mormon Catechism for Children, page 13, you find this question and answer, “Are there more Gods than one?
    Answer—”Yes, many”

    My friends, my friends, beware.
    Mormonism is a FALSE religion

  53. Anonymous said

    Another example of how BOM contradicts the Bible…

    The prophet Jeremiah and Lehi were contemporary prophets according to The Book of Mormon. Jeremiah said that there were NO prophets preaching the truth in his day.

    Lehi contradicts Jeremiah in I Nephi 1:4 by stating, “There came many prophets prophesying unto the people that they must repent or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.”

    Do you put your faith in the Bible or the BOM? You can’t have it both ways…

  54. Anonymous said

    Another contradiction

    Moroni 8:8 says that children are born without any sin. But Psalm 51:5 teaches that children are born with original sin.

    Which text do YOU trust?

  55. Anonymous said

    Consider this….

    According to Helaman, at Christ’s crucifixion, there was three DAYS of darkness. But Luke 23:44 records that there were three HOURS of darkness.

    are the Mormon books trustworthy?

  56. Anonymous said

    According to BOM the people in the Old World were using steel weapons and tools before 600 B.C. (I Neph. 4:9; Jasom 1:8; 2 Nephi. 5:15) But steel was not invented or processed until 1856!

    Do you put your faith in THIS book?

  57. Anonymous said

    To any Mormans who want to appear on the Truth Talk Live show: you guys need to be ready to be interupted constantly, and loudly by the host. Why bother? At least on the blog we can make our points without having to shout louder than Stu (which may be mpossible).

    On the blog we just have Brad to argue with, and he’s just a big ol’ fluffy teddy bear once you get to know him.

    Good luck.

  58. Brad said

    I really AM a big fluffy teddy bear, if you get to know me!

    I love in-person discussions, b/c they’re more meaningful and you can really exchange ideas better. But a blog is the next best thing, I guess.

    Plus, there isn’t a commercial every 6 minutes like there is on Stu’s show!

  59. Anonymous said

    The “teddy bears” are waiting for your answers

  60. Anonymous said

    Some of Joseph Smith’s false prophesies:

    Smith prophesied that people live on the moon, dress like Quakers, live to be a thousand years old, and are six feet in height.

    Smith prophesied that the ten lost tribes of Israel are living in a tropical valley at the North Pole. The Apostle John is still alive and lives with them there.

    Smith prophesied that the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the world would take place in 1891.

    Smith prophesied that a temple would be built on the “temple lot” in Independence, Mo., within the generation of those living in 1832.

    Smith prophesied that he would return from Salem, Mass., with “many people” and “much treasure.”

    Deut. 18: 20-22, tell us to examine the predictions of someone who cliams to be a prohet. If their predictiosn fail to happen then s/he is a false prophet.

    Joseph Smith = False prophet

  61. RonPaulforPresident said

    My wife and I both visited with Mormon missionaries for 4 and a half months. We are still friends with some of the Mormons that we met through the missionaries.
    This is what it came down to for me, if the Mormons are correct and I die, I still go to A HEAVEN. If I am correct in my beliefs and I die, I still go to HEAVEN, but they will go to Hell…there is a big difference there.
    But if you are going to say things like, “Smith prophesied that the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the world would take place in 1891.” You need to know where he said that, because if you can’t show the Mormons, they won’t believe you. You need to back up what you say with text, not hearsay.

  62. Brad said

    RonPaul,

    Even if you DO give them text showing where he said it, they STILL won’t believe you. Remember, Mormon literature is subject to change based on new revelations from “God”, so you can’t just look at their texts and say “Oops, you were wrong”, b/c they’ll say “Yes, b/c we now have new revelation.” It’s an argument that can’t really be defeated, b/c it is constantly changing. It’s like trying to hit a moving target.

    I like the fact that the Bible hasn’t changed, and it is still correct.

  63. Moderator said

    Stu provides this blog for the very purpose you speak of, Anonymous. It’s hard to get through on the phone at times and Stu does get excited on the air on these issues. He’s very passionate about what he does and what he believes in, as everyone should be. Sometimes he talks over guests and sometimes guests talk over him. That’s the way talk shows are sometimes. He’s aware of it and he does his best. Radio advertising pays the bills and keeps the show on the air. Sorry, but without it there would be no Truth Talk Live. Hence, no truthtalklive.com, where we can openly debate issues such as this.

  64. Anonymous said

    Master master, the mormons were in the market healing the sick and casting out deamons in your name and I forbade them not!

    Sound Familiar!!!!!!!!!!!

  65. biteback said

    Seriously, what do you people think Jesus thinks about all the things Mormons believe? Do actually believe that he approves of the things they believe and practice? If you do, then woe unto you.

  66. Anonymous said

    Thanks, Mr. Moderator, sir.

  67. Amanda said

    What does Jesus think of what the “Mormons” believe?
    I asked that question of God directly each day in 1976 as I began to read the Book of Mormon and visit the Church. Even as a nonmember who knew nothing of the Church, I realized immediately that yellow journalism and a bad spirit ruled in attacks against these wonderful, spirit-filled Christians.I found only the love of Christ in the Church– and the fingerprints of Christ all over it, especially when I reread the New Testament and the book of Acts! After the witness of the Holy Ghost–which I hear little about in your responses (which makes me wonder if some of you are even familiar with this member of the Godhead who works through our minds AND hearts), and unshakable evidences of supporting truth and–both internal and external, I still have to pinch myself 30 years later. Happiness, peace, and certitude of my relationship with God and His son, my Savior,Jesus Christ(to know them–this is eternal life!), are my rewards here on earth–and all because I went to God instead of to you for my answers about the Church. I will praise His name forever, knowing that I did not put my trust in the arm of flesh.

  68. RonPaulforPresident said

    Hey Brad, you are correct to a point. I showed the missionaries from their own D&C where Joseph Smith had a failed prophecy, instead of answering the question, they would change the subject or say “you have to take it by faith”.
    Amanda, my wife and I are still friends with some Mormons that we met. I will say the Mormon church reminded my wife a lot of the Catholic church in which she was raised. The Catholics are really big on honoring Mary.
    Members of the LDS are really big on honoring Joseph Smith. My problem Amanda, is that it is almost as if people are “pressured” into the church. The missionaries call every other day if you don’t answer their calls. The first day I met with the missionaries, they asked if they could set another appointment, to which both my wife and I agreed.
    What they didn’t tell us was they were going to bring other people with them to the appointment.
    So then it was 3 or 4 of them against my wife and me. But I do find it crazy, that I would ask legitimate questions, and instead of answering the questions, they would change the subject or give an answer that was not honest. This happened several times.
    I don’t think the missionaries were lying on purpose, I just don’t think they knew what they were talking about, because is was very evident. When I would show them where they were wrong, they would just go silent or ask me, “Where did you get that?” I would show them and they couldn’t provide an answer.
    Believe me I think Mormons, by the worlds standards and even some Biblical standards are “good” people. But it goes back to the 10 commandments. “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me”. I don’t see the God of the Bible and the God of Mormonism as the same God.
    Again Amanda, think about it. If you as a Mormon are correct in your beliefs, when I die, I still go to A HEAVEN. If I am correct in my beliefs and I die, I go to Heaven and unbelievers go to Hell. There is a big difference.

  69. Anonymous said

    Amanda, there are lots of Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims who FELL the same certitude that you have.

    But it’s more than a matter of feelings.

    It’s a matter of TRUTH. The truth is that Mormonism deviates from and contradicts Biblical Christianity.

  70. Anonymous said

    Romney stated that there have Presidents who did not believe in God. As a history teacher, I know of no such president! I was Stu had called him on that one. It’s just not true.

  71. amanda said

    To Ronpaulforpresident:
    I considered your letter an honest one, one that I could appreciate having spent 9 months with different sets of missionaries before receiving my answer from God. I had promised my parents (and I was 25 at the time!) that I wouldn’t rush into anything, and my husband wasn’t reading, praying, and asking as I was at the time, so I slowed down for him.
    Perhaps your missionaries didn’t know how to respond to your concerns. There is always an answer that puts things in perspective, but while I had an answer from God and knew the BOM was true, it was in the process of a few years and reading church histories by early members and J.S. himself that I found answers to many of the concerns or attempts to defraud that come up. Remember that they have about 6 lessons they are to cover to present the gospel in a logical way that will enable you to grasp it and exercise faith to receive an answer, and they make appointments 24/7. I was never called often on the phone once we’d scheduled an appointment. Their time is valuable to them and to the Lord.
    They occasionally bring only one extra person with them unless they are inspired to bring another–like a wife of a member with the member, and that is so you can see the quality of people in the church and feel more comfortable by knowing someone when you visit. It could also be someone they think would have more gospel knowledge from more years of study than they’ve had to help answer your questions.
    Big on honoring Joseph Smith? We’re big on honoring Moses and Paul and Peter and John too. Joseph was the first latter-day prophet, without whom we wouldn’t have the BOM, D&C, or the Church; but if you’d visited longer, you would have seen there is no comparison between him and deity or the supernatural as their is with Mary in the church you mentioned. There are also many, many eye witnesses to Joseph’s calling as a prophet, and the Church was preserved by the hand of God, both before and after Joseph’s death. If it were going to crumble, it would have then as the murderers predicted.
    I would be interested to know what biblical standards the members didn’t meet. (You said they met “some.”)
    Our God is the same God in the Bible, and we have no other “gods” before Him. We believe that Jesus was the Creator (who implemented His Father’s plan), and was also the Jehovah of the Old Testament who dealt directly with mankind after the Fall. God the Father walked and talked with Adam in the Garden of Eden and is the Father of our spirits. It is His plan we are living in mortality.) Jesus was the author of the 10 commandments and was to be the Redeemer from the foundation of the world. Truly, except when he is introduced by His Father, as in at his baptism and the Transfiguration, and to Joseph Smith, Jesus is the only member of the Godhead who has talked with His prophets “face to face.” Also, the term “God” as used sometimes in the Bible, often refers to the Godhead–not just one individual–the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Christ taught us in the Bible to worship and pray to our Father, to give Him the credit, and always in His (Christ’s)name. Jesus is also our Father by adoption.
    An aside: Romney’s comment about other presidents not believing in God was irrelevant, true or not, since he, Romney, does believe and is a Christian.Like Reagan, his idea on abortion did change, and Reagan was a fantastic president. Romney is made of similar stuff.
    I would wager (if I were a betting person) that none of the critics writing on this blog against Mormonism have ever seriously (much less prayerfully)read the BOM. I know the drill; they pull verses pointed out by professional anti’s to try to prove it false. I challenge anyone to read the according to Moroni’s challenge in Moroni 10:3-7, and then claim that we worship a different Jesus than the one in the Bible.
    You’re right, “ronpaul:” our God is more merciful than a living God who would consign devout people striving to live godly lives, as much by the Bible as by latter day revelation, to hell for obeying His Spirit to the best of their discernment and ability. The Bible and BOM obviously must not contradict each other in our minds. The thing most of the critics don’t realize is that the witness of the Holy Ghost is not a function of purely feelings. (Even the missionaries told me that.) It works through the active, sincere mind and heart and helps one compile spiritual and temporal evidences to lead one to a witness of truth. Some experience a flood of warmth and light upon their conversion, some a peaceful feeling, some a burning of the bosom; others just experience an inner certainty of both mind and heart that cannot be impeached.
    I would rather stand at the judgment bar and say, “Father, I asked you, and I did what you told me to,” rather than, “Father, “I did what Joe Blow told me to,” or “my daddy told me it wasn’t true!” Wouldn’t you?

  72. Amanda said

    By now,only a few will read this, but to Anonymous and whomever asked the other:

    Psalm 51:5 states children are born IN (not WITH)original sin. That simply means, they are born into a sinful world. We know, however, that the natural man in an enemy to God. That doesn’t begin to set in until age 8. Christ covers the salvation of chilen through his atonement until they are accountable.
    And Luke 23:44–3 hours of darkness versus the 3 days of darkness in the BOM? No contradiction. The BOM people were on the other side of the world and their darkness came from all the volcanic and whirlwind action and debree which happened at the same time.

  73. RonPaulforPresident said

    Hey Amanda,
    The Mormon Church and the Catholic Church are very similar. For example, Mormons have the Bible(KJV only if properly translated), the BoM, and the D&C. Catholics have the Bible with the Apocrypha. Mormons believe the Prophet speaks and hears to/from God, much like Catholics believe the Pope speaks and hears to/from God. Mormons change doctrines according to what the Prophet says as the Catholics change doctrines according to what the Pope says.
    My point about the missionaries bringing other people, was the fact they didn’t tell us they were. The people they brought, would normally just sit there and not say anything, until the missionaries called on them. Then they would give their testomies of “I know the BoM is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, etc…”
    You say that the God of Mormonism is the same God of the Bible. I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where God is married and has many wives producing children.
    The Mormon religion is basically a guarantee of everybody going to a heaven, which is a direct contradiction to the story that Jesus told of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, found in Luke 16:19-31. The story says of the rich man in verse 23, “And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.” You can’t say this is purgatory, because verse 26 says, “And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”

  74. Anonymous said

    amanda,i feel so sorry for you cause ,as many, you have been decieved.you have much passion for nothing.its not hard to find so much stuff out there that should through up red flags that says mormons are a false religion.God never changes and is never wrong.how can you over look the mormon past?you are in my prayers.brad keep up the good work.and i still think stu sounded like a cheerleader for romi.God bless all of you!

  75. RonPaulforPresident said

    Is there an audio cast from the show…because I missed it! Was Romney really on the program?

  76. RonPaulforPresident said

    Also, Amanda, feel free to email me on my email address at coffeewithchess@gmail.com We can maybe get more understanding talking one on one then you having to address 20 questions from different people.

  77. Amanda said

    Brad, you will find that a great many truths–like whether or not God is married or whether there would even be prophets after Christ–are not in the Bible specifically. Nor are they discounted. We do know that God man and woman were created in the image of God, however, from the Bible. How one interprets that (spiritually and/or physically) matters not unless the interpreter is of God. God’s church was established upon prophets and apostles, not popes and peons, and Satan always perverts the truth to create inversions of it. Unless you have the witness of the Holy Ghost, your beliefs are only in the Bible insofar as YOU interpret it correctly. I would not want to be doing that without the help of the Holy Ghost myself. God IS the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The Book of Mormon proves that; so does God’s use of the same tools He has always used to give us eternal truth–revelation through , the Holy Ghost, and the Church He established in the meridian of time. Once we find and identify these tools, nothing else will satisfy and we will never be “tossed and turned” by every wave or wind of doctrine– like many churches today are on subjects like homosexuality, abortion,etc.
    Practices may change according to revelation and our current needs and necessities, but principles God has revealed never do in the Church. Your understanding is full of errors, but God has chosen not to talk about His wife-or wives or the lack of them in the scriptures; perhaps that is why we follow his example in the Church. Our knowledge about this is zip, and so we are concerned with and teach only the essential saving principles and ordinances of the gospel as they have been revealed. Again, speculation, even if it is inspired by prophets, is not doctrine. You won’t find such things in our Articles of Faith or the scriptures. Yet many of you spend ALL of your time dwelling on the sensational and fighting against the only Church about which the Lord has promised to give a witness of truth. He keeps his promises to any sincere seeker who trusts that He can answer and is willing to read the revelations seriously and ask. Wouldn’t the Lord be pleased if you spent your life sharing what you know about Christ through the Bible–not what you surmise, erroneously, about what the LDS do or do not know? You usually are mistaken even about what we do believe and teach because you won’t find it layed out accurately in anti-Mormon literature.
    Even the beautiful act of childbirth would sound very ugly and undesireable–even pointless–from conception to delivery–when shared and explained by one who is not pure in heart, doesn’t know God,His Son, or the power and purpose of the Holy Ghost, and has never had a baby himself or herself. Such is the way you butcher the beliefs of the Latter-day Saints.

  78. Amanda said

    Watch “The Mormons” on Monday and Tuesday nights at 9 pm for a more objective no-LDS recounting (not that everything said will be true) on Channel 26 PBS.

    By the way, anonymous, the history of the Church is a huge reason to ask and find out that God was its originator! The history, however, that you read must be true and given by eye witnesses.

  79. warrior said

    amanda – you have been brainwashed – a group of Christians have formed in order to specifically pray for you – just remember, the Truth shall set you free

  80. Anonymous said

    Amanda- do you really believe the 3 hours versus 3 days tale? Really?

    Do you really believe the “close enough” explanation about Bethlehem versus Jerusalem ? Really?

    I put my faith in the Jesus revealed in a Book (the Bible) that needs no such convoluted explanatiions (ie, excuses).

    We are praying that God will open your eyes to the TRUTH, the TRUTH that you can grasp both with your heart AND your mind.

  81. Anonymous said

    look amanda,i love u but you are miss lead.when i said the things from the mormon church should through up red flags,doesnt mean its good red flags.ok if it was cause they were proicuting you for jesus sake,yea i should look in to it.thats not the case thuogh.Sin is the reason,which is why you should relize its a false religion.for a man should have one wife and become one flesh.i no you have read it.though your church hasnt always had that view.oh i no besides a few small sects of the mormons they no longer practise that,but they did.along with all smiths revalations never came to pass,plus tke bom contradicts the bible.i could go on and on.i looked in to mormonisem when i began seeking God.it didnt take long though for me to figure out its false.just like the jws.by the way my name is brett.the one who said stu sounded like cheerleader.oh one more thing yea there is many things in some of the other christian churchs i dont agree with,but i dont support those churchs either.with the love of christ Brett

  82. Amanda said

    Dear friends–Brett, Anonymous and Warrior,
    Bless you all for praying for me and for caring about the souls of God’s children. Although it is impossible for you to understand with the little knowledge you have of the Church (and a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing), the truth has already set me free. I love the Bible and have studied it daily for 30 years(I have missed a few days, but not many!). The Holy Ghost speaks to me through it as well as latter-day revelation–as it does all members, and there are no contradictions.
    Yes,a tremendous amount of volcanic ash could easily darken the environment for three days. The Nephites who survived were more righteous than the Jews at the time, and the Lord was preparing (humbling) them for His visit. They were the “other sheep” which he said “I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” As we know, the Gentiles didn’t hear Jesus’ voice directly as a people. (with a few individual exceptions)
    Why do you think the American Indians lay down before Cortez and allowed him to abuse and plunder them? They thought he was the white God who promised to return in their oral history. The Book of Mormon records Christ’s visit to them, and he taught them the same gospel he taught in Judea. The Book of Mormon links the Old Testament and the New and shows us that the gospel is “one eternal round.”
    If I discounted the possibility of Joseph’s being a prophet because of polygamy, I would also have to throw out Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not to mention the words of the Lord through the prophet Nathan to King David in 2 Samuel 12:7-8…”And I gave thee thy mater’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom….” Plural marriage was practiced by less than 3% of the membership in Joseph Smith’s day, and the Lord condoned it only to raise up a righteous generation unto the Lord in a church that had been partially wiped out and persecuted. The Lord also requires His Church to follow the law of the land, so when it was outlawed, and the leadership was being arrested and the temples would soon be seized by the government, the Lord no longer required it to be practiced. Fortunately, the church is thriving without it at 230,000 converts per year. There have only been a few times it has been condoned by the Lord, as you read in the book of Jacob in the BOM when He tell s them that one wife is the plan, except…”if I will raise up seed unto me, I will command my people.” (prarphrased) If you ever saw pictures of Brigham’s wives, you know there was little lust involved. Some of them were widows he took under his wing to support. It would have been so much easier to do what false prophets and political leader do today–have affairs! That way, you don’t have to have the first wive’s permission and you don’t have to be wealthy enough to support more than one family as the Mormon’s did. These were honorable men.
    Again, the Book of Mormon and the Bible are not in competition; they are simply two different records of God’s dealings with people on different sides of the planet. They promote the exact same gospel and have the same words of the Old Testament prophets up to the time the BOM was recorded in ancient America.
    Do watch Monday night so you can get a better grasp of the “Mormons.”
    God bless you, and give you direction for magnifying your own opportunities to live his gospel.
    Amanda PS I hope you went to church today!

  83. warrior said

    Amanda – One day we will all stand before the Great White Throne of Judgment. I pray you will realize that the Book of Mormon is not divine revalation, but ultimate perception. At the Great White Throne I will stand before Him saved by His Grace. What do you think He will think of you since you believe that He and the devil are brothers. Again, Amanda…we will be praying for you.

  84. Anonymous said

    amanda,its brett.ok old tesament times they did have a wife and bondsevent.i wont argue that.however when christ(jesus)came he raised the bar and said if a man even looks at a woman with lust you have cometed lust in your heart.plus it was reencerted a man in woman were to become one flesh.no where in the new testament was multiple wives condoned.plus in titus 1.8 a leader of a church is required to have only one wife.which totally contridicts what you are saying.you are just trying to justify sin.oh and i wont try and defend the pasters who have fallen into sin and had affairs.it truely grieves me,but they sure didnt turn around and say to there congregation its ok all of you can do this to.and build a whole new doctrine on it did they?no they repented and lost there spot as pastors.when it comes down to it,mormonizem is just another false religion that desieves many.and the bom contridicts its self and the bible.please amanda repent and run from the mormon church so i can see you in heaven.my heart crys for you!with the love of christ brett

  85. Amanda said

    Warrior and Anonymous,
    Remember, I said that plural marriage has only been condoned by God a very few times, so it’s no surprise it wasn’t promoted in the NT–just like it is never promoted in the BOM. Justifying sin? I assume you think David sinned in accepting the wives God said He gave him that belonged to Solomon? When God says it’s okay, it’s not sin. Just like when he told Peter in Acts 10:15 about eating that which was unclean (applying it to taking the gospel to the Gentiles): “What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.” God has a purpose in all He commands.
    You guys are funny in that you think you know what you’re talking about, but I have 30 years’ relationship with the Lord and His word and His Church which contradicts everything you are saying. But don’t take my word for it; find out for yourselves.
    One day I too will stand at the judment bar of Christ, saved by grace, and Christ will rejoice that I wasn’t deceived by his rebellious spirit brother.The Heavens wept when Satan, a “son of the morning,” fell from heaven.
    The Book of Mormon was sent for our day and time to give us even more information to help us recognize and avoid Satan’s evil and subtle tactics. Christ will be happy with those faithful enough to stand tall in holding fast to His “second love letter” to mankind (the BOM) despite the mockers of the world. It talks about a prophet’s dream of a “large and spacious building” which holds all who mock those who hold on to the iron rod (God’s word) and follow it to taste of God’s love. It is the spacious building that crumbles in the end.
    Keep on praying, but remember to listen. Prayer should be a two way street.
    Amanda

  86. Amanda said

    Oops, I meant, “the wives God gave David that belonged to Saul,” of course. Big correction. Too bad I didn’t proof it first.
    Amanda

  87. Anonymous said

    Amanda writes (regarding polygamy) that”…the Lord no longer required it to be practiced….”. Has she looked at Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) 132:1-4; D&C 132:37-39 and D&C 132: 61-62? These doctrines support polygamy…(Interestingly, they contradict Jacob 1:15; Jacob 2:27 and Ether 10:5; one of many cases where self-contradictions exist in Mormon books).

    But apparently we are not to use our minds when discussing Mormonism !

  88. Brad said

    Amanda,

    I can see that nothing will sway you. So, as the Bible commands, I will stop casting my pearls before swine, realizing that any further discussion would simply be wasting time. I understand that you believe whole-heartedly in your salvation, and I also understand that Christ Himself said that “narrow is the road, and few are those who find it.” You and I both believe we are on that narrow road, but based on our beliefs, which are opposite, only one of us has the truth – the other has been misled with devastating consequences.

    I pray that the Holy Spirit will continue to work in your life and minister to you regarding the truth about Christ and salvation.

  89. Anonymous said

    John 7:12 sums up this blog.

    And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.

  90. Amanda said

    Brad, Anonymous, and any others still reading,
    No, we are definitely not using your mind to discuss Mormonism, Brad! The verses you quote in no way contradict each other. The practice of plural marriage is always evil unless it is commanded by God (ask the Patriarchs themselves when you get to Heaven). David’s lust for women, as in the case of Bathsheba, was evil–as was Solomon’s lust for women, especially not of the faith who led him to worship their own gods as he was paying lip service to the true and living God. The latter-day verses in support of the practice that you mentioned were given in the light of it’s once again being commanded of God. That’s the problem with pulling verses out of context, my friend.
    Since your purpose is to convert me to what you perceive as truth, Brad, you are right. There is no point to further conversation. However, my goal was and is always, entirely different. I did not want to convert you; I only wanted to help you understand what we believe and why. You would be amazed at what we have in common. We both believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior and in the Bible.
    You say you believe in the Trinity although you haven’t shared any thoughts indicating your knowledge of the other two members of it as found in the Bible.
    While my beliefs have some added enlightenment from latter-day revelation, my life is in essence the same as yours: I pray, read God’s words, exercise discernment as to what He would have me do and then proceed to follow Jesus’ example as best I can although, of course, I fall very, very short. (Usually from pride or selfishness or misunderstanding) I repent when I understand that I have sinned against myself or anyone else. I strive to keep my body and thoughts and words clean and pure and to be kind to others, to share the gospel as I understand it.
    If you are trying to live your religion to your best understanding, I’m sure our paths will eventually cross in the kingdom of God; and our knowledge of truth by that time will be identical. By the way, not everyone goes to heaven in my faith, you know. There is outer darkeness where Satan and apostates of truth go. They have in essence crucified their Lord anew by denying and actively fighting against the tuth that He has revealed to them in this life. They are called “sons of Perdition.” There are also those who are not in celestial kingdom whose “fire” is never quenched” who experience a form of hell eternally. What is that fire that is never quenched? That “worm that never dieth”? The eternal pain of knowing what could have been. They could have lived in the presence of the Father and the Son eternally, with their own eternal families. “He that overcometh (and of course, I shouldn’t have to point out that He means, with God’s help) shall inherit all things.” (Rev. 21:7)
    Part of “working out our salvation with fear and trembling” (Philip. 2:12) is choosing to follow the truth as God reveals it to us through the Holy Ghost no matter what opposition Satan throws in our path. Jesus’ litmus test for truth was found in John 7:17…”If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”
    This is why, brethren, 30 years of living and practicing church principles cannot be impeached by any number of wimpy assumptions and inaccurate judgments about my beautiful faith which I know intimately.
    Yet…I do have a love for anyone who is trying to follow Christ, and I do appreciate your taking the time to chat with me in this format. Thanks for your concern–and God bless each one of you! Be happy! “Man is that he might have joy!”
    Amanda

  91. RonPaulforPresident said

    Hey Amanda, another problem of Mormonism is getting married in the temple for “time and all eternity”. This is a direct contradiction with what Jesus said in Matthew 22:29-30, “Jesus answered and said to them, ‘You do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.”

  92. Anonymous said

    Murder can be forgiven (3 Nephi 30:2)..oops! Murder cannot be forgiven (D and C 42:18)

  93. Amanda said

    Actually, both of your questions, Anonymous and Ronpaul, are good ones–even if your intent may not be pure.;-) (that’s a wink)

    Here is our understanding through latter-day revelation:
    Background: The Sadducees posed what they thought was a very difficult question there, and as you read, they didn’t believe in a bodily resurrection. They were trying to discredit the doctrine by an exaggerated and improbable application of it. Everyone knew that the Mosaic law required that the living brother of a deceased and childless husband should marry the widow to raise children to the name of the dead, whose family lineage would then be legally continued.
    Jesus knew that the question, “Whose wife shall she be?” was based on an erroneous conception. The meaning of his answer was that in the resurrected state there would be no question among the 7 brothers as to whose wife she would be, since all but the first had married her for mortality only, primarily to perpetuate the brother’s name and and family. “In the resurrection there will be no marrying nor giving in marriage; for all questions of marital status must be settled before that time, under the authrity of the Holy Priesthood, which holds the power to seal in marriage for both time and eternity.” (Jesus the Christ, by Talmage)

    Murder: 1 John 5:16-17 and D&C 42:79…Murder–which we presume is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought is declared a “sin unto death.” (ie. a sin for which there is no forgiveness.)This means the murderer can never gain salvation. “…no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15) He cannot join the Church by baptism; he is outside the pale of redeeming grace. The call to repentance and baptism which includes murderers in 3 Ne.30 has reference to those who took life while engaged in unrighteous wars, as did the Lamanites, becaue they were compelled to do so, and not because they sought blood in their hearts. In Acts 3:19-21, the Jews who had Christ’s blood on their hands were not invited to repent and be baptized. Murderers (like King David) are forgiven eventually but only in the sense that all sins are forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; they are not forgiven in the sense that celestial salvation is made available to them. After they pay the full penalty for their crime, they shall go on to a telestial inheritance. (Rev. 22:12-15)
    And Brad, although I will overlook the fact that you called me a “swine” (I can’t blame you; I always feel the same way with hardcore anti-Mormons), I would remind you that the pearls you have cast in this correspondence are not your suppositions and judgments about Mormonism. Your pearls are the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the only Savior of mankind, the creator of heaven and earth as well as our exemplar. The pearl is that He has paid for our sins, and all we have to do is become his disciples in word and deed and, when we blunder, use the gifts–like repentance–that He has given us to remain in His good standing and on His merits.The catch 22 that you would never, ever susupect is… that I caught that pearl long ago, before we were baptized into His restored church. I rejoice in that pearl every day!

    Amanda

  94. RonPaulforPresident said

    Also Amanda, why do Mormons say the BoM is the most correct of any book? The missionaries told my wife and I both that the BoM had never been edited, “except for punctuations”.

  95. Anonymous said

    Hell is eternal (Mosiah 3:24-27)

    Hell is not eternal (D & C 76:106-112)

  96. RonPaulforPresident said

    “but are as the angels of God in heaven.” You skipped the part about us being “as angels of God in heaven.”

  97. Anonymous said

    Do you think that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God? Would a true prophet of God boast that he was BETTER than Jesus? Joseph Smith did just that…

    “I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor JESUS ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.”
    —-Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Vol., 6:, p.408.

    A prophet? A humble man? A righteous man?

  98. Amanda said

    Gentlemen:
    Now you see why most Mormons are too smart to even get involved with people who spend all of their days throwing anything they can dig up to keep the Mormons busy and on the defensive. I enjoy it, but even I have limited time. (I hope you get paid for your efforts.)Of course,I notice that when I do respond, there is never a response to my response, just a new shot at the bucket.
    This may be my last shot back since I leave town tomorrow for a day or so, but we’ve had a good run anyway. It’s like I have to take the time to explain all of our doctrine when you really should be listening to the missionaries organized discussion of the plan of life instead of my carrying on.
    We believe, not in purgatory but in the spirit world, a place where we go after our spirits return to God until we are resurrected. This is where Jesus was telling the thief on the cross he would see him that day–in “the world of spirits, not in heaven (see Greek version).” The wicked who go there are in “hell” while the righteous are in a blessed state, but we stay in the spirit world only until we are resurrected at Christ’s coming, and we are assigned a kingdom of glory. Those who are in the hell portion will not be resurrected until the end of the millenium. Once we are assigned a kingdom, our lot is eternal; and thus the wicked will then be in an “eternal hell”–a place with no chance of progression or expectation to live with Heavenly Father and Jesus or to have families and live the quality of life God has promised to share with us. This could be both outer darkness and/or the telestial kingdom, and the most wicked apostates from truth will experience the second death–which is being dead unto righteousness. Again, no conflict.
    Ron, I’m not sure what you want me to say about certain individuals being “as the angels in heaven,” but yes, that’s what it said.
    Anonymous, Joseph Smith was indeed a righteous, humble, and also human prophet.(All prophets and apostles were human–not totally perfect. JOSEPH DID NOT SAY HE WAS BETTER THAN JESUS; HE MERELY STATED THE FACTS. Jesus’ church was taken from the earth because the people were too wicked to allow it to survive. (The church–which is also Jesus’ church–of the 1800s just barely survived itself. We have been promised that it will still be here when the Savior returns.) The Apostles were killed, and the priesthood was eventually withdrawn.
    I know that Joseph was humble and righteous because he was a conduit for God’s revelations of which I have a sure testimony. I know this because of his accomplishments in his short 38 years. I know this because of the wisdom in the structure of the church and how God’s spirit sustains it today–and because of the peace that Satan cannot duplicate in the church and the lives and hearts of individuals and because of the wonderful things done by the power of the priesthood and the members’ faith. Sometimes it’s hard to differentiate between recognizing one’s own worth and pride. We felt that about some of the youth in the church when we were investigating, but we came to know that most of them were indeed humble and meek–but they knew their own worth, especially in God’s eyes. So did Joseph.
    The BOM is the “most correct book” only because it was translated once and because its plain and precious contents remain intact and weren’t altered in any way down through the years through handling and multiple translations. (We take and cherish the Bible at face value, but even some of my “anti” friends often want me to have the original Greek in hand instead of just the KJV before they will converse with me. Words were not always translated correctly or we wouldn’t need the Greek, would we?)
    It boils down to this: It would be nice if you folks would allow us to define our own religion and trust that what may seem like a conflict or contradiction to you, in the framework of the restored gospel, may be in perfect harmony to us. I think we agree on certain crucial points. To review,we accept the Bible literally; we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and believe in the Godhead–with three distinct members, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. We believe we are saved by grace and faith IF we have accepted Jesus in word and deed (been faithful) and used the gift of repentance and the gift of the Holy Ghost in our lives–all of which qualify us for His grace. We are peaceable and do not attack other religions yet try to fulfill God’s admonition to take the gospel to all the world. We love our fellowman and try to serve them as Jesus would. (Some of us are trying harder than others, but we all acknowledge our imperfections and need for forgiveness and grace.)
    We believe we must “endure to the end” in faithfulness–unlike Solomon. And that’s about all I need to say to you. Thanks for the opportunity. Now, please read the entire BOM straight through, but begin and end on your knees so that you may interpret it correctly. Read Moroni 10 first!
    Amanda

  99. warrior said

    Amanda – you are sadly mistaken on all accounts. We will all continue to pray for you despite the difficulty we may have in influencing your beliefs. It’s not Christians you will have to answer to one day, but Christ Himself. May God have mercy on your soul and may you one day find the Truth. A quick Google search is all anyone needs to do to find information on what Mormons really believe. You may have to copy and paste these into your browser.

    http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/mormon.htm

    http://www.gotquestions.org/Mormons.html

    http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon024.htm

    http://www.bidstrup.com/mormon.htm

    http://www.cc.utah.edu/~njb4/mormoncult.html

    There were hundreds more like this. Good luck, Amanda.

  100. Anonymous said

    Amanda–Mormonism sounds good doesn’t it, but it is utter wickedness, utterly deceitful. It is a wolf in sheeps clothing. It is searching for whom it may devour. It is another “gospel” that the Bible specifically warns us against. We are wanred that those eho bring it will be eternally condemned. It spreads the notion that the Bible is inadequate and inaccurate. Mormonism is a false religion and you are woefully deceived.

  101. david said

    http://www.mormonchallenge.com

    Q.E.D.

  102. Anonymous said

    wow! back to original question–of course, a Christian should NOT vote for a member of a cult!

  103. Chet said

    DNA evidence refutes Mormonism…

    BOM claims that Native Americans are principally descended from the Lamanites, who are of Israelite origin.

    DNA research, however, indicates that Native Americans are from the region of Asia around Mongolia, not connected with the Israelites at all.

  104. Brad said

    Folks, it doesn’t matter what evidence you present to refute Mormonism. To the Mormon, it will be considered that you aren’t really in line with the truth, and you’re just another “anti”. They have an excuse or reason for any argument that you can present.

    Prayer is the best option.

  105. RonPaulforPresident said

    Hey Brad, I totally agree. We shouldn’t think it will happen overnight. Think of it as if a Mormon is trying to get you to join their church, it probably won’t happen…same from their side. Prayer is the best thing we can do.

  106. Anonymous said

    I concur with Brad and Ron Paul:

    Let’s all pray for the Mormons.

    For me, I am signing off.

    As I’ve heard before, you cannot win someone to the Kingdom with debate. Let’s all pray that their eyes will be opened.

  107. john said

    I am praying that all of Utah and all Mormons, and all Americans will fall on their knees to acknowledge the Jesus of the Bible who is part of the Godhead (singular), part of the Trinity; the Jesus who declared:

    “..when you have seen Me you have seen the Father..”

  108. Brad said

    If you haven’t seen this site, you might want to go there to see how the Mormons typically respond to the common questions:

    http://www.josephsmithdvd.org

    This is in response to a DVD that came out recently, which exposed the Mormon faith as false, and shows the F.A.I.R. (Mormon apologetics team) response to it. From this, it is easy to see there responses to common questions in one format. Of course, they use the Bible and the Mormon texts interchangeably here, based upon their presumption that the Mormon texts are valid, which of course would not be a good response when it is those very texts that are being challenged by the DVD!

  109. Anonymous said

    #1 The Father is God (I Peter 1:2;II Peter 1:17, Isaiah 64:8)
    #2 The Son is God (John1:1-3; John 20:28; John 10:30; Hebrews 1:8)
    #3 The Spirit is God (Job 33:4; Job 26:13; Acts 5:3,4)
    ……….. but………….
    #4 There is only ONE God (Deut 4:35;Deut 6:4; II Sam 7:22; Isaiah 43:10; Isaiah 44:8; Mark 12:32; Gal 3:20; 1 Tim 2:5)

    The Trinity !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  110. Christopher said

    I am praying that Jesus will appear to Mormons just as He has to Muslims (who also misunderstand who He is) across the Middle East and that all Mormons will be saved by Grace through their faith in Him alone (the only way)

  111. Anonymous said

    I’m praying for the Mormons. I pray that they will renounce their polytheism and embrace Christianity

  112. warrior said

    Best idea I’ve heard all week! Sounds like most of us concur. Who will post a comment leading us in prayer for all Mormons to come to Christ? Brad – Maybe it’s appropriate for you to post this prayer. You were in the middle of the debate and did an outstanding job, in my opinion.

  113. Brad said

    It would be my sincere pleasure to pray.

    Dear God, we acknowledge You and Your awesome power, and we praise and thank You for the marvelous gift of grace You have given to us through Your Son, Jesus. We come humbly before you, asking that You reveal Yourself in a mighty way to not just Mormons, but to all who are lost and have not yet found true salvation in You. God, we know it is Your desire that ALL be saved, and we pray for that right now. Remove any hindrances that may be present for anyone to accept Your saving grace, and continue to send Your Holy Spirit to speak and minister to those who have not yet found You. God, use us as You see fit to accomplish Your will, and we pray that You would equip us for those we will encounter, that we might show Your love and mercy to all we come in contact with.

    God, we ask all this in the name of Your Son and our Savior, Jesus Christ.

    Amen.

  114. Anonymous said

    Oh, you hypocrites!!!

  115. Anonymous said

    I am praying for the Mormons as well—including the anonymous accuser. I have forgiven you.

    But I will also continue to provide them with the overwhelming evidence that Mormonism is a false religion.

    I am sure that there are plenty of Mormons who have a burning in their brains ever bit as strong as the burning in their bosoms.

  116. Brad said

    Anonymous,

    Just curious why you think we’re hypocrites.

  117. Anonymous said

    You know what you are.

    Shame on you.

  118. Brad said

    Yes, that certainly clears it up. Not sure how you can expect any dialogue when you’re so vague, but maybe you’re not looking for dialogue?

    Either way, it’s OK, I’m sure of what I have said and done, and I do pray that all those of mis-placed or absent faith will come to a saving knowledge of Christ, the true Jesus of the Bible.

  119. Anonymous said

    You know in your heart whether or not you are a hypocrite. A hypocrite prays so men notice them being pious. But, you knew that.

    Now don’t be a liar, too!

  120. Brad said

    Anonymous, what is your basis for such claims? How did you come to the conclusion that I am a hypocrite? It’s not as if I just appeared on this board at the end of the discussion and prayed. I have been on here since the start of this discussion, and I was asked to pray, which I did.

    Do you doubt that I, or those who might believe similar to the way I do, truly wish others to be saved from cultic beliefs? If so, why do you doubt that? I don’t think I’ve said or done anything that could make anyone doubt that I wish others to be saved. But if I have, I’d sure love to know what it is.

  121. Amanda said

    kdrkeiymWhile you folks are high-fiving and praying to be seen (of each other)and questioning motives, can I ask you a question myself?

    Let’s assume we all love the Bible and that we are all honest in heart and not trying to pull the wool over someone’s eyes or being drawn into “wresting the scriptures” or scripture baiting simply because we’re addicted to it or get an adrenaline rush from it–and that there’s no underhanded conspiracy here…just a desire to understand the scriptures and share what we understand with each other.

    Please explain to me your undertstanding of the Trinity. And do you honestly not see any discrepencies in logic in your explanation when placed in the entire scriptural body? (I’ve read commentary by thrologians who honestly admit the perplexity of it.)

    Then I’ll explain to you any problems I might have with what you might believe–for a change. My thoughts will be–and have been all along–stricktly from my understandings of church doctrine and from 30 years of studying the Bible with the help of the Spirit. I never go to websites or say what someone has told me to say. that would be disengenuous.

    Thanks,
    Amanda

  122. Anonymous said

    What is H20?

  123. Anonymous said

    Amanda , the concept of the Trinity IS complex. But, of course, God is not limited by what you and I are able to understand. We rely on the concept of the Trinity from the Bible. In the Bible the concept is clearly present.

  124. Anonymous said

    To the hypocrite accuser…Remember who the Great Accuser is?

    You are following him.

    Even if it is true that we are ALL hypocrits, remember Jesus asked us to follow HIM. He didn’t ask us to follow His followers.

    So I would plead with you, accuser, to follow the true Jesus of the Bible.

    Do not follow the “jesus” who is reported to be the brother of the Great Accuser (Lucifer)

  125. Amanda said

    Yes, I believe the concept was so complex, expecially after the Hellenization of Christianity, that God orchestrated the restoration of the gospel to clear things us. The Godhead, at least to me, is clearly present in the Bible, and I would love to hear what you believe.(After 25 years in a mainstream church, I still didn’t understand.) I don’t want to monopolize space, however, so maybe Brad will go first? Or anyone else? I believe our Heavenly Father wants us to know Him, or we wouldn’t read in John 17:3–”And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” Let’s get it right–at least our understanding, so that when I say I believe in the Godhead (I used to call it the Trinity since “tri” signifies three, but then I was accused of being devious since two of my three have glorious, resurrected bodies. The biblical term “Godhead” is more accurate, after all, so I’ll stick with that.
    Thanks for taking the time to clear up your perception of what the Bible says for me. Just because we disagree, I won’t accuse you of not being Christian, so don’t hesitate to jump in.

  126. Anonymous said

    1+1+1 =3

  127. Christopher said

    1 X 1 X 1 = 1

    (God invented math)

  128. Anonymous said

    If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were the same, they would not have different names.

    If they were the same, they would not appear separately as they do in Matthew 3:16,17.

    In spite of being different, they are “one.” (John 10:30)

    In spite of being different, there is only one God (Deut 4:35;Deut 6:4; II Sam 7:22; Isaiah 43:10; Isaiah 44:8; Mark 12:32; Gal 3:20; 1 Tim 2:5)

  129. Anonymous said

    Amanda what is H20 ?

  130. Chet said

    No evidence for any event in BOM..

    “..no Book of Mormon cities have ever been located, no Book of Mormon person, place, nation or name has been found, no Book of Mormon artifacts, no Book of Mormon scriptures, no Book of Mormon inscriptions, no Book of Mormon gold plates–nothing which demonstrates the Book of Mormon is anything other than a myth or invention has EVER been found.
    –Ankerberg and Weldon, Cult Watch, 1991, p.38

  131. Yusuf said

    By the way, some Mormons say it is an oxymoron to refer to “Christians” and “Mormons”, implying that LDS are the same as Christians…….but early Mormons themselves made the distinction. That is, they went out of their way to show that they were NOT Christians. One examples…

    ” What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing…. Why, so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools..”

    John Taylor, 3rd President of the Mormon Church Journal of Discourses vol 13, p. 225

    So, Mormons do not consider themselves Christians (rightly so). Moreover, they have called us fools…

  132. Anonymous said

    Who REALLY needs to learn about God?
    LDS–> “Our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man” (JF Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol 1, p 10).

    It is the LDS that know nothing of God. According to Joseph Fielding Smith, God was mortal and a man. If so, who created him?

    Who created everything out of nothing? A mortal man ???

    By the way, JF Smith is just affirming the teachings of the orginal Joe Smith who wrote that “..he was once a man like us;..yea, ..God himself, the Father of us all dwelt on earth..

    My brain is burning for reason..

  133. Anonymous said

    Question: Should a Christian vote for a Mormon for President?
    Stu, are you kidding?

  134. Anonymous said

    Christian Brothers and Sisters:

    Did you know that Brigham Young referred to himself as the “Second Mohammed” ?
    Check out this book..

    Under the Banner of Heaven
    A Story of Violent Faith
    Written by Jon Krakauer

  135. Brad said

    “While you folks are high-fiving and praying to be seen (of each other)and questioning motives…” (Amanda)

    Amanda, what is your basis for such a claim? You don’t believe it is possible that there are Christians on here who are truly concerned about those they believe to be lost, and are sincere when they pray for them? If the ONLY reason I prayed was so others could see my prayer, you’d have a point, but if I am praying publicly b/c I was asked and b/c I wish others to pray in like fashion for all to receive salvation, tell me, what is wrong with that?

    “Let’s assume we all love the Bible and that we are all honest in heart and not trying to pull the wool over someone’s eyes or being drawn into “wresting the scriptures” or scripture baiting simply because we’re addicted to it or get an adrenaline rush from it–and that there’s no underhanded conspiracy here…just a desire to understand the scriptures and share what we understand with each other.” (Amanda)

    I thought that’s what we’ve been doing. Again, you seem to be making some more accusations which you don’t have a basis for. Do you think that is fair?

    “Please explain to me your undertstanding of the Trinity. And do you honestly not see any discrepencies in logic in your explanation when placed in the entire scriptural body? (I’ve read commentary by thrologians who honestly admit the perplexity of it.)” (Amanda)

    Amanda, as someone else has previously posted, the Trinity can be seen throughout Scripture simply by looking at different passages which refer to God in different terms, as follows:

    #1 The Father is God (I Peter 1:2;II Peter 1:17, Isaiah 64:8)

    #2 The Son is God (John1:1-3; John 20:28; John 10:30; Hebrews 1:8)

    #3 The Spirit is God (Job 33:4; Job 26:13; Acts 5:3,4)

    ……….. but………….

    #4 There is only ONE God (Deut 4:35;Deut 6:4; II Sam 7:22; Isaiah 43:10; Isaiah 44:8; Mark 12:32; Gal 3:20; 1 Tim 2:5)

    Based on the way you asked your question (with respect to the logic behind the reasoning), is your issue with the way we understand the Trinity the fact that it doesn’t seem logical how there can only be 1 God, but in 3 different (yet equal) persons? I agree, and as you reference, scholars also agree, it doesn’t seem logical. But that is b/c we are viewing this concept from the limits of our minds, and in light of what we know and the way our thoughts are constructed. Look at Isaiah 55:9 “For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Look also at Romans 11:33-34 “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” Just b/c we can’t fully understand it, doesn’t mean it isn’t true, does it? If we say that, then we negate faith in its entirety, b/c then we’re essentially saying we have to be able to prove it or understand it for it to be true. Granted, there are many things about God, the Bible, etc… that CAN be proven to be true, through a variety of methods, but our understanding of the Trinity is just one of those concepts that seems hard to understand.

    “Then I’ll explain to you any problems I might have with what you might believe–for a change. My thoughts will be–and have been all along–stricktly from my understandings of church doctrine and from 30 years of studying the Bible with the help of the Spirit. I never go to websites or say what someone has told me to say. that would be disengenuous.”

    Feel free to ask any questions you wish. I would be more than happy to answer them for you, if it would help you to gain a fuller understanding. I am puzzled why you think that going to websites or repeating what someone else has told you would be disingenuous. I think if you did it blindly, if you just accepted what you heard or read without doing any investigation at all into the claims, then it would be foolish, but if you read and study Scripture to verify the claims, I think other resources can be helpful. If the LDS church makes an official pronouncement (for example, if Hinckley says something to be true), would you just believe it b/c he said so?

  136. Amanda said

    It seems I stirred up a hornet’s nest, doesn’t it? Brad, any questions you might have as to why I said anything I did, you can answer by reading all of the comments, not just yours. I went back after being gone for awhile and saw that indeed, you were invited to pray. I can accept the sincerity of your prayer. It’s the basis-and sometimes the excuse–for all of the attempts to “interrupt our rejoicing” with often half-cocked attempts to convert to what we are already converted–Jesus Christ as our Savior. (Can’t help but get really old.)

    I say “half-cocked” because none of you, even the well-meaning so-called Christians can begin with the thought that God could have a hand in this work and that His spirit might be leading people to the fold. I can unequivocably testify that He led me, and I know multitudes of people in the church, each one with a beautiful conversion story, each one a miracle, since there are many things about the church that seen through uninitiated eyes would be stumbling blocks. Today, even the appearance of angels and priesthood power (which includes the sealing power which Jesus gave to his apostles), the gift of the Holy Ghost, an actual church established by Jesus while he was here—all seem impossible, much less the resurrection of Christ, His very conception, etc. These are all things that must be understood by you and myself –first through a step of faith, which leads one to ask God expecting an answer.

    Anyone who bases his testimony of the truthfulness of the Bible is on shakey ground without the exercise of faith and the witness of the Spirit. I fear that some who have written here would not be Christians intellectually (in mind at least) if they did not know there were evidences backing up many of the stories of the Bible. Would you be content with that kind of belief? I too was an intellectual Christian in my young adulthood, but it wasn’t until I read the Book of Mormon and saw my prayers (and many questions) answered through the missionaries that I had the faith to ask God expecting an answer and received it. That was only the beginning point of the spiritual evidences that He has given me since that time.
    Would I believe something just because President Hinckley said so? Personally, I would, but only because I know him–his character, his goodness, his honesty and humility, his love of the Savior and devotion to the gospel, the ways he has been tried and overcame opposition in his life, his humor about himself, especially, his faithfullness all of his 96 years. (After his doctor examined him, according to his daughter whom I saw last weekend at a women’s day, the doctor said, “I can’t believe how well you’re doing!” (he carries such heavy responsibilities every day but has great support in his counselors and the other Apostles.) ” I only have 12 million people praying for me,” he replied. When something he thought was wrong turned out to be nonthreatening, he said, “Well what IS going to kill me?” (I think he’s ready to join his wife.)

    One of the main reasons I would believe him is because I know he would say nothing that would conflict with scripture to begin with. Another is that as much as I might believe him, from Joseph Smith and Brigham on down, we have always been encouraged not to follow blindly but when there is an inclination or seeming conflict in our minds,to go and ask God and receive a witness from God if what our President said was true.
    About that quote from John Taylor, the 3rd president/prophet of the chruch. This is why we don’t take quotes out of context from church history because we can lose full understanding of what is meant. This man took 4 or 5 balls from the guns of murderers along with Joseph in Carthage Jail, but his life was miraculously spared. (His pocketwatch was over his heart and has the bullet impression to show it. These peace-loving people were being severely persecuted by so-called Christians, amongst those (with face painted black) who stormed the jail were at least 5 ministers of the faith and their congregations. Who can cast the first stone at his saying what he did? (I have felt, and even in some of these letters, the same spirit which (flamed with alcohol, as they often were back in those days before attacks were made) drove those “men of God” to burn, rape, and commit murder in the early days of the Church. After all, they were only “Mormons.” “Mormon” was always a nickname given because we believe in the Book of Mormon, and Joseph took it to mean “more good.” We have never told people not to believe what they already believe from the Bible.The grand fundamental principle of “Mormonism ” is, according to Joseph Smith, to receive truth, let it come from whence it may. Have the the Presbyterians any truth? Yes, we should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up.” President George Albert Smith declared to those of other faiths: “We have come not to take away from you the truth and virtue you possess. We have come not to find fault with you nor criticize yo. We have not come here to berate you….Keep all the good that you have, and let us bring to you more good.” We never thought Christians–or the individuals who believe and attend and even preach were corrupt–although doctrine can be corrupted), just incomplete. It was the post biblical creeds that are called “traditional Chrstianity” with which we do not always agree. As long as there are those who insist on having “an exclusive entitity of Christians who only agree with what is included in certain creeds, they cannot claim the doctrine of “sola scriptura”–scripture alone. And that leads me to…

    The Trinity: I have no wish to criticize or find fault, but I will throw out just a few basics thoughts I have picked up from my Bible reading that will never leave my mind and lead to the logical conclusion that while we have 3 glorious individuals who are so close in attribues and purpose that they need only be called God (instead of Gods) or, more accurately, the Godhead, they are distinct:

    Acts 7:55-56 Stephen “being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. And said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”
    That’s two individuals right there, visible to Stephen–and this just before he was accosted with stones.
    +As Hebrews ch. one points out, talking about God: v.2-6 ..”hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son…Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person…” (We believe this too. Seth also was in Adam’sown likeness, after his image.” Gen.5:3) We believe that means he looked exactly like his father, as Jesus looked like His Father expressly.
    Jesus, ressurected, said unto his disciples, “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” He never dropped his body or said he would after that, but we are told our body will be “fashioned like unto his glorious body” (Philip.3:21) In James, we read about “men which are made after the similitude of God (back to “in his image” in Genesis.)”

    + Jesus: “My Father is greater than I…”(John 14:8)
    +Jesus in whom “dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily… “
    (Eph.2:9)
    That’s one plus one, and then…
    +Jesus continually prayed to the Father. Why would he have a need to pray to his Father about anything since he contained the fulness of the Godhead bodily?
    +Jesus ascended to “my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God,”and he asked Mary not to touch him until he did. (John 20:17
    +God created man in his image, also stated “in the likeness of God (Gen. 1:27, 5:1, 9:6)
    +When Jesus was baptized, the voice of the Father was literally heard–as it was also on the Mt. of Transfiguration, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him as a dove (all three made their presence known)
    1 Cor. 15:27,28…For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. (Athough the caps aren’t there to signify, to me, this means that only the Father, who “put all things under him (Jesus) would Jesus not be subject to. “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” (That HIM should also be in caps. So God in this case is referring to God the Father, one who he said was “greater than me.”

    Well, this is by no means an exhaustive treatment, but the more I read the Bible, the more convinced I am that the nature of the Godhead is as stated above.
    And if it weren’t, isn’t my faith and aren’t my conclusions based upon the Bible as surely as yours are? If others can say, “we are not limited by what we understand about the Trinity, cannot we make the same claim?

  137. Anonymous said

    Amanda: Regarding “men of God” committing murder in the early days of the Church.

    I am just curious to know if you plan to see “September Dawn”?

    It’s the story of a massacre of 120 men, women children over age 8 at the command of Brigham Young.

  138. Anonymous said

    Amanda–we ceratinly believe in God’s Revelation. But not in false revelation that contradicts objective data that we are also able to obtain by the mind that God gave us. I believe in the Bible– there is overwhelming data, including Archaeological, historical and extra-Biblical records to support its veracity. There is no conflict between what I read in the Bible and what I learn from these other sources. In fact, day by day more evidence supports the Bible.

    But in contrast, there is a BOAT LOAD of data to refure the claims of the BOM and not one iota to support it.

    So any supposed revelation creates a conflict. Did God gove a mind to reason only to creat a conflict between that reason and what he has revealed to us. No.

    Instead the supposed “revelations ” of BOM are false.

  139. Anonymous said

    Amanda, you’ve bought the farm

  140. Anonymous said

    Amanda what is H20?

  141. John said

    Amanda makes a comment about Mormons being persecuted by Christians “with face painted black.”

    Is that Mountain Meadows Massacre where the Mormons disguised themselves as Indians, convinced the settlers to disarm, only to mow them down in cold blood.

    Amanda–despite all your verbage, you do omit critical details.

  142. John said

    I should have written ” Is that worse than the Mountain Meadows Massacre where the Mormons disguised themselves as Indians, convinced the settlers to disarm, only to mow them down in cold blood?

  143. Anonymous said

    I don’t know if Amanda was alluding to some racial issue when she mentioned “with faces painted black..” it’s hard to tell (lots of words there).

    Recall that Wilberforce and others led the abolitionist movement starting before 1820, BASED ON THE BIBLE (by the way, years before the LDS came into being on April 6, 1830 in Fayette NY).

    Mormonism has a long history of racial prejudice. Recall that Laman and Lemuel (2 of the 6 sons of Lehi) were evil-tempered and sinful; therefore, God CURSED them (according to LDS) by having dark skin.

    The other four sons–Nephi, Sam, Jacob and Joseph had white children.

    It was not until 1978 when Spencer Kimball (12th Pres/prophet) received a new “revelation” that nonwhite races were allowed into the priesthood.

  144. Brad said

    “…we have always been encouraged not to follow blindly but when there is an inclination or seeming conflict in our minds,to go and ask God and receive a witness from God if what our President said was true.” (Amanda)

    Amanda, wouldn’t it be better (and easier) that if somebody said something that raised doubts in your mind, you could go to the source of all truth (the Bible) and see if what the person said is true or not? The problem is, a good bit of theology from Mormonism CANNOT be backed up by the Bible – that is why another “testament” had to be created, to back up everything Smith wanted to be true.

    Much of Mormonism always hinges on asking God and getting that “feeling” that what is said is right. However, why would you need to pray about matters that God has already given us His verdict on? One does not need to pray about whether to worship another god because the true God has already said it is wrong (Exodus 20:3). Likewise, you shouldn’t need to pray about the Book of Mormon because God has already condemned all gospels that contradict that found in the Bible (Galatians 1:6-8).

    Additionally, prayer is NOT the test for religious truth, according to the Bible. We are instructed by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 to objectively “test all things,” not pray to receive a subjective feeling that something is true. Though the Bereans believed in prayer, their barometer for truth was not prayer but Scripture (Acts 17:11). Why would a Christian do any different?

    “Anyone who bases his testimony of the truthfulness of the Bible is on shakey ground without the exercise of faith and the witness of the Spirit. I fear that some who have written here would not be Christians intellectually (in mind at least) if they did not know there were evidences backing up many of the stories of the Bible. Would you be content with that kind of belief? I too was an intellectual Christian in my young adulthood, but it wasn’t until I read the Book of Mormon and saw my prayers (and many questions) answered through the missionaries that I had the faith to ask God expecting an answer and received it.” (Amanda)

    Again, what I said earlier addresses this, as well. If the Bible (not the BOM, but the Bible) backs it up, there is no need to pray for any other confirmation, b/c you already have God’s final answer!

    “We have never told people not to believe what they already believe from the Bible. The grand fundamental principle of “Mormonism” is, according to Joseph Smith, to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.” (Amanda)

    But if you believe fully in the Bible, then there is no need, according to the Bible, to need another book to show you the way. Truth comes from Scripture, according to the Bible, so to say “let it come from whence it may” doesn’t even hold to the Bible. Do you see how you can’t hold to the Bible and need “another testament”, as well?

    “Acts 7:55-56 Stephen “being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. And said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”
    That’s two individuals right there, visible to Stephen–and this just before he was accosted with stones.” (Amanda)

    Amanda, I’m not arguing that Stephen didn’t see 2 separate personages – the Bible says he did, so I believe he did. The Trinity involves God in 3 separate persons, but just one God. If I took one apple, and cut it into 3 pieces and put it in front of you, and asked you to count what you see, you would clearly count to 3, wouldn’t you? But then the question would be, how many APPLES are there? You know that those pieces represent just ONE apple, right? So you can’t say they’re 3 like apples, when it’s really just 3 pieces of the same apple. Though the Trinity doesn’t necessarily work like that, that’s a decent example of the limited understanding we can gain about it (referencing the Bible verses I gave you earlier about God’s ways being higher than ours). You yourself earlier said that you thought the Trinity, as we understand it, doesn’t make sense in light of ALL of Scripture. That being the case, you were given several Scriptures that clearly showed that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all referred to as God, and the Bible states that there is but one God, so what logical conclusion can be drawn from that? One God, in 3 persons, blessed Trinity!! By the way, you didn’t address ANY of the Scriptures I gave you.

    “…the more I read the Bible, the more convinced I am that the nature of the Godhead is as stated above.” (Amanda)

    Is it the more you read the Bible, or the more you read all that Mormonism has to offer from all its texts? Would you come to the same conclusion if you had never been introduced to Mormonism or any of its texts?

    “And if it weren’t, isn’t my faith and aren’t my conclusions based upon the Bible as surely as yours are? If others can say, “we are not limited by what we understand about the Trinity, cannot we make the same claim?” (Amanda)

    Amanda, your faith and conclusions aren’t based upon the Bible like mine, b/c your faith is not based solely on the Bible, but upon the feelings you have, the BOM, Mormon teachings, D&C, POGP, etc… There’s a big difference.

    I don’t know who said “we are not limited by what we understand about the Trinity,” so I can’t address that directly. I know we can’t fully grasp the concept this side of heaven, but we need to have the proper understanding of the basic concept of it, even if we can’t understand exactly how it works.

    Amanda, I tell you all this out of Christian love for you (someone I’ve never even met), and out of a sincere desire to see nobody go to an eternal hell – you are currently proceeding down that path with Mormonism. They DO preach a different Jesus than that of the Bible, based on the nature of what LDS believes about Him. There are no other gods – God was never created, and the god that created God was never created (that’s a logical implosion that happens as soon as you ask “where did the beginning start”, b/c at that point there had to have been a first god, which means that god had to exist from the beginning and not be created, which contradicts Mormon teaching).

    I pray that you will study the Bible for your truth, and not rely on the false witness of a feeling in your heart that Mormonism is correct. It is not the Holy Spirit who has given you that feeling – you have been dangerously misled by Satan.

  145. Anonymous said

    “1 X 1 X 1 = 1

    (God invented math)”

    So, if the Bible contains mathematical errors will you concede it’s (the Bible’s) inerrancy?

  146. Anonymous said

    Sorry, I meant to say “errancy”.

    If the Bible contains math errors will you concede it’s errancy?

  147. Anonymous said

    “To the hypocrite accuser…Remember who the Great Accuser is?

    You are following him.”

    Wow, you must know my heart.

    Blasphemy! Hypocrisy!

  148. Anonymous said

    “Anonymous, what is your basis for such claims? How did you come to the conclusion that I am a hypocrite? “

    Maybe you need to ask yourself these questions.

  149. Anonymous said

    To the errantly inerrant one:

    I certainly have no problem conceding your errancy.

  150. Anonymous said

    By the way, in all the deluge, I’m still waiting for a Mormon to address the Book of Abraham and JS’s complete fabrication.

  151. Anonymous said

    Hey guys.

    Support Utah Partnership for Christ and help lead Mormons to the Biblical Jesus

    upfc.org

  152. Anonymous said

    Remember, our goal is to win the Mormon to Christ, not to win the argument…..

  153. Anonymous said

    its brett here,amanda if you asked me if my paster was righteus id say no,and neither am i or any of the other people here.were all wicked hearted in need of a savior.thats why we place our trust in jesus.yet you clamed mr smith was.its imposible for the bible says no one is rightius not one.we all fall short of the glory of God.the bible is insightfull enugh with out the bom.and you should put your trust in God the bible and thats it.churchs dont save people God does.people dont save people God does.out of mans mouth comes lies and deciet,but God is faithful.God alone deserves ALL of the glory.to me it seems the mormons along with the jws put there faith in men and there churchs.woe to who dosnt trust in God alone!with the love of christ thats in me brett.oh stu when are we going to get the other half of the show on this subject?

  154. Amanda said

    3 slices of an apple–one apple; 3 Gods with the same purpose and attributes–one Godhead. This, I believe.

    All of your intellectual arguments are pretty good–if you don’t have the knowledge,facts,experience, and most importantly, the Holy Ghost to witness a fair shake at “Mormonism.” If I didn’t know anything other than what the media and other churches and professional anti-Mormons had said about the church, I’d be right there with you.

    I was very fortunate when I first learned about the church in that I knew almost nothing–and had never heard the name Joseph Smith. So…I wasn’t afraid to listen, to read, to ask of God. I received my answer about the Book of Mormon, and I feel the same Spirit whenever I read it as well as the Bible. I taught the Old Testament last year (this year–the New Testament), and it truly increased my testimony of the Book of Mormon.

    Apparently, few of you pray about the things you read–even in the Bible. Well, that explains a lot brethren!

    To the poor guy who keeps asking about the Pearl of Great Price, I can only tell you that my testimony of its truthfulness is in the internal evidence and what it offers to strengthen the rest of the standard works. If one isn’t open enough to talk about the Book of Mormon spiritually, he is certainly not ready to tackle the other. Most of it was burned in a fire except the fragments that are from a prayer or burial service–which aren’t a part of the book we have. The evidences of the Book of Mormon are something I’d give to those who were really interested.

    About racial prejudice: I can only tell you that the blacks in the church (like Gladys Knight) would beg to disagree. The church’s doors were open to blacks long before the other Protestant churches, and one of the reasons we were hated in Missouri is because we didn’t approve of or engage in slavery and the people were afraid we would outvote them on the issue. Since you don’t believe in or understand the Priesthood of God and that He determines who holds it and when, there’s no point talking about it. It has to do with timing though–much like taking the Gospel to the Gentiles. Jesus said he was only sent to the House of Israel, but in His own time, God the Father prepared his servants (through dreams) to take it on to the Gentiles. The Priesthood was similar in that it was handled in God’s timing and not man’s. If public pressure were the reason that changed, the blacks would have received it in the 60′s instead of 1980-something. It was changed by revelation to a diligent and humble prophet, Spencer W. Kimball.
    When God decided to take it to the Gentiles, and when He decided to no longer require circumscision (which in the OT was referred to as an everlasting covenant with Israel when it was given, you guys would have been there to accuse the Lord’s servants of being prejudice and arbitrary and “adding to” the scriptures, wouldn’t you? Judging from your mocking spirits, that is.
    I didn’t respond to those scriptures about the Trinity you sent me, whomever you are, because I believe each one of them–just not your conclusion about them.
    Attention: What IS H2O other than two particles of water and one of oxygen? Better yet, than something to be baptized in? I’ll bet many of you disagree over whether baptism is essential when the Bible is pretty clear on that to me! Still, you don’t question your fidelity to the Bible, do you?
    Our prophet today–and Joseph Smit, all felt their need for a Savior. That is how Joseph received revelation to begin with. If you read the Doctrine and Covenants, you will see that he was chastized by God as needed and was utterly dependent upon him. He learned hard lessons by dealing with many other imperfect men too.
    When you talk about God being “created” and stuff, you still don’t know the doctrine of the Restoration. In fact, most of your conclusions about the church and your beefs are ungrounded in the fulness of truth.
    You are right when you say churches and people don’t save mankind, God does. Nor does the Bible save. The author of the Bible does. The author of the Book of Mormon does. To deny that God can speak again, can send angels again, can establish the same church He did in Jesus’ day, can lead it through a living prophet, to me, is blashemous. I will accept God’s word from the sources (The Bible and the standard works of the Church) He has led me to, knowing that when an individual asks Him humbly, with a contrite spirit and a broken heart, willing to act upon the revelation He gives, He will no more allow Satan to lead him or her astray than you would give your own child a stone or serpent instead of a fish to eat. Should the day come when your hearts are humble and contrite on this issue, I pray you will read the Book of Mormon, asking of God yourselves. Then like Paul, you will be able to say, “Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”
    “And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. So Paul departed from among them.” (Acts 17:29-30,32,33) God will answer your sincere prayer, and the humble disciple’s mind will become submissive to his Father in Heaven and as actively engaged as if he were in college again. The Bible will speak to him anwew, and he will learn doctrine.
    “Wherefore murmur ye, becasue that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation ike unto another? Adn when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
    And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same, yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak for my words according to mine own pleasure.”
    (2 Nephi 29:8-9)
    As for me, I wil take comfort in Ether 12:37…”If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore, thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.”
    And like Paul, I shall now depart.

    PS Please try to give a more thorough and believable treatment of the scriptures I gave you supporting the Godhead vs. the Trinity to your next “Mormon.”
    In fact, I hope that those of you who haven’t discovered the power of prayer will continue to read your Bibles after asking the Lord first to enlighten your minds. Revelation is a beautiful thing and as we say, prayer and pondering are the parents of revelation while reading the scriptures.

    Love in the Christ of the Book of Mormon and the Bible, the same yesterday, today, and forever,
    Amanda

  155. Amanda said

    PS Through Peter’s dream, I meant, the Lord prepared the taking of the gospel to the Gentiles. I had spoken of that before, so I didn’t take time to do it justice.

  156. Amanda said

    Brad said: “The problem is, a good bit of theology from Mormonism CANNOT be backed up by the Bible – that is “why another “testament” had to be created, to back up everything Smith wanted to be true.”

    BRAD, I would chuckle if this comment wasn’t so sad.
    The BOM comes in our day to give credence to and witness FOR the Bible.

    Amanda, wouldn’t it be better (and easier) that if somebody said something that raised doubts in your mind, you could go to the source of all truth (the Bible) and see if what the person said is true or not?

    Brad, I do go to the Bible for my truth just as surely as I go to it’s companion volume (see Ezekiel 37:15-19, the stick of Joseph -of Egypt) the BOM.

    “why would you need to pray about matters that God has already given us His verdict on? (WE DON’T) One does not need to pray about whether to worship another god because the true God has already said it is wrong (Exodus 20:3).”

    Now Brad, that’s just insulting. I do not worship another god, but– oh yes, I think I told you that already. And the Book of Mormon in no way contradicts the Bible. You continually show me that you’ve never read anything other than selective quotes in the BOM, ones that you mistakenly think serve your cause. It would behoove you to learn something about a cause you seem committed to fight–or to “kick against the pricks.”

  157. Brad said

    “The BOM comes in our day to give credence to and witness FOR the Bible.” (Amanda)

    “…I do go to the Bible for my truth just as surely as I go to it’s companion volume…the BOM.” (Amanda)

    “And the Book of Mormon in no way contradicts the Bible.” (Amanda)

    OK, I must bow out now. I was hoping to have a meaningful discussion, but Amanda, you have clearly been brainwashed through your many years in the LDS church. You believe there are no contradictions between the Bible and the BOM, even though many here have shown numerous contradictions, of which many more exist. You believe you worship the same God, the same Jesus, even though scriptures from the Bible have been presented that clearly show otherwise. And you believe that the BOM is on par with the Bible, even though only one of them (the Bible) is inspired by God, the other simply written by a man (Smith). So YOU have been presented with credible evidence that you are in a church that is false and worships a different God, and YOU have chosen to ignore the evidence and listen to your church’s teachings.

    It reminds me of 2 Corinthians 4:1-5 “Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.” While I realize you think this doesn’t apply to you, b/c you believe that you are part of the one true church revealed through your prophets, the reason that Christians know this applies to you is b/c you preach a different gospel. Everything you believe – about God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, salvation, heaven, hell, etc… – is NOT the same as is taught in the Bible.

    Amanda, as a Christian, I feel so bad for you, because you do not even know you have been misled. And although many here have tried to tell you, and given you examples, you just cannot see it. That being said, we have done what Christ has commanded us to, which is to tell others about Him. The results of that are not up to us, but are between those we tell and God.

    Judgment day WILL come, and I know when it does you will expect that you will be in one of your levels of heaven, ready to be like God. But Amanda, I’m telling you now on the authority of Scripture, the path you are on is leading straight to hell, because you have not accepted the Jesus Christ of the Bible as your Lord and Savior, and placed your faith solely in Him and no other.

    Amanda, it’s not too late to change now, and break free from the bondage you are currently in and come to Jesus, the real saving Jesus, and not the lie the LDS church has continued over the years. I would love to lead you to Christ, not for personal glory, but for your salvation and eternal security. If not me, I would love for someone else to lead you to Christ. It is too late after we are dead, as Hebrews 9:27 says “man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” All must come to Christ in this lifetime, or the penalty according to Scripture is an eternity without God in a fiery hell.

    Again, Amanda, we love you here as Christians. If we didn’t care, we wouldn’t debate it with you, trying and pleading for you to realize just how dangerously wrong the LDS church is. But we have done all we can do, and we pray that you will take some of these words to heart, and talk to other Christians and study the Bible alone (away from the BOM or other LDS teachings), and have a Christian friend to guide you, and show you what the Bible alone has to say.

    God bless, and I pray that we will one day meet in Heaven.

  158. Anonymous said

    Yes, H20 is water–as Amanda said.

    But it is also steam (vapor) and ice.

    Three forms.
    Same substance.

    Thus, you have a prototype of the Trinity.
    You CAN accept it, but
    You have CHOSEN not to.

    You have replaced “God” in the Bible with “Godhead”

    You believe in a god (or rather gods) of your own making.

    This is idolatry.

    Beware.

    You are violating the 10 commandments. Since you do not accept the Biblical Jesus, you must perfectly obey the 10 commandments, as your own “uniform system for teaching families” states: If we fail to keep the Lord’s commandments, we will not be permitted to live with him.” (1981 ed, pp15-17).

    I hope you can keep the commandments perfectly. But unfortunately in your idolatry, you have already failed.

    Beware.

  159. Daniel said

    Water, when steam, can condense to rain drops, and ice can freeze, presenting two additional entities to the mix. Now we have five parts to our one God, and Polytheists is what WE have become.

    An innocent Christian bystander of our implosion,

    Daniel

  160. Anonymous said

    Ice can freeze?

  161. RonPaulforPresident said

    Rain is water

  162. Daniel said

    Forget the rainwater. That was a stretch, but ice is a solid, for sure, and not a fluid, vapor, or steam.

    Jesus said he came not to judge the world but to give us a life abundant. If we want to love our neighbors and share Christ with them, we can do it without telling them they are on their way to hell. Jimmy Carter has some good points these days.

    Daniel

  163. RonPaulforPresident said

    What is ice made of? Isn’t it still considered H20?

  164. Anonymous said

    To Daniel:

    Yes, we can win them by telling them of God’s love.

    But we me tell them about being saved…saved from what?

    Saved from the wrath of God.

    If we tell the whole truth, we tell them this as well.

  165. Anonymous said

    should read….

    But we must also tell them about being saved…saved from what?

  166. Anonymous said

    amanda,its brett.look you are wrong about thinking we are all just anti mormon cause of the media ect.ive looked in to mormons and the jws.how can you say someone is wrong if you dont find out for yourself.oh not me i need the whole story from both sides if im going to put my soul on the line.but the mormon faith doest go hand and hand with the bible.they contredict oneanother,and bom contridicts its self.you claim you are lucky cause you were clueless about mr smith.see that was your fist mistake cause the bible teaches put it to the test.and you failed to do so,and was misslead.and now your pride stands in your way of admitting so.though this must accure to fullfill scripture.many false profits will enter the world and decieve many. luke21-23not everyone who says lord lord will enterinto the kingdom of heaven,but he who does te will of my father in heaven. many will say to me in that day lord lord,have we notPROPHESIED in your name,cast out demons in your name,and done many wounders in your name? and i will say depart from me i never knew you,depart from me,youwho practises lawlessness. you could add to that15-20 1john 4 1-6 beloved,do not believe every spirt,but test the spirts,whether they are of God,because many false profets gone out into the world. oh and remember,john 14 8 phillip said to him show us the father and its sufficient for us. and jesus replyed have i been with you so long and yet youhave not known me phillip?he who seen me has ssen the father,so how can you say show us the father? right before that in verse7 he says to thomas if you know me you know the father also,and from now on you know him and seen him. so they are one in the same right amanda?or is the bible a liar? i really hope you come to knw who the bible jesus is!with the love of christ in me brett

  167. Brad said

    Daniel,

    Jimmy Carter has some horrible points these days, and what’s worse, he is doing it not only from the platform of a former President, but from the platform of a SS teacher in a Baptist church, which is shameful!

    He is doing nothing more than making muddy waters even muddier. He has said, on record, that Mormons are Christians, and one only has to compare the core beliefs and doctrines of the 2 religions to see that clearly they are not similar. He has also commented on his daughter, who has “issues” with churches of today b/c of their various stances, including women’s role in the church, and said that he thinks it’s the church’s fault.

    Here’s a thought – when people have issues with the church b/c what it believes and says doesn’t conform to what a person thinks, one only has to go to the Bible to see what is true. If the church is teaching what the Bible says, then it is the person who must change, not the church.

    I hope you’re not putting a lot of stock in what Jimmy Carter says nowadays, Daniel, b/c it just isn’t true, no matter who he is or what he used to be.

  168. amanda said

    Brett and Brad,

    As I read your comments overall, I can tell you are really diligent, devoted, caring men. You feel as deeply about the Bible as I do and care as much about Jesus as I do. You feel your beliefs are correct, just as I do. (Brett, you have a childlike enthusiasm about the gospel and purity about you that I know is as endearing to our Father in Heaven as it is to me.) I want you both to know that I appreciate your dedication to your beliefs and your willingness to stand as “watchmen on the watchtower.”
    I know there is no way to convince you–and many others–that the LDS Church is nothing to either fear or condemn, but I would not be worth my salt if I didn’t tell you that there is a reason the Church is still here today and ever growing. If it could have died, it would have when Joseph and Hyrum were murdered. Everyone expected it to.

    You’ve heard that even the devil can quote the Bible, and we could quote the Bible all day long and still, because of the lenses we wear, not make any progress on either of our goals–yours, to convert me to what you think is the Christ of the Bible, and mine, to help you understand that I already know and love Him and that my life has been changed by Him. I was converted, born again, and dispelled of any fears or insecurities I had about my beliefs in 1976.
    My advice to you–not that you are open for advice–would be the words of Gamaliel, a well respected doctor of law and teacher of the Apostle Paul in his youth. “And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought. But if it be for God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.” (Acts 5:38-39)

    As long as God gives the invaluable witness of the Holy Ghost in converting people to the church and sustains this witness as they pray, study His word, and follow the teachings of the Church, your work will be in vain. You will only succeed in pulling away those who are weak in the faith–a weeding out which will be done eventually anyway, one way or another. You want to take what we believe away and give us nothing we don’t have in return. (I’m not being “snooty”–that’s just the way it is.)
    While I don’t believe in arguing scripture, I would like to present to you our belief in the Godhead more thoroughly–not to try to convert (only the Spirit can do that), but to show you that the historical Christian tradition of interpreting the nature of God is not the only way to see those Bible scriptures you have quoted, yet if we both adhere to the Bible in our beliefs–even if LDS people still believe in prophets, angelic appearances and continuing revelation, what is there to fight about? Those things are in the Bible too! And when Jesus was talking about sheep in wolves clothing, wouldn’t that have been a good time for him to say, “There will be no more prophets after me–ever.” ? But he didn’t; instead, he said, “by their fruits ye shall know them.” Since the coverage of the Church’s fruits (by Christians and the media) are presented as well as the coverage of the Iraqi War by the media–dwelling on and dredging up negatives and distortions–you are unable to judge the fruits of the church accurately.
    I will wait until the show with Hugh Hewitt, for whom I have great admiration. He knows the Latter-day Saints better than any Evangelist or preacher I know. I read his book, written with Stephen A. Robinson, “How Wide the Divide” and loved what they were trying to accomplish. So…the next time, I hope, that you hear from me will be after that show.

    Thanks,
    Amanda

  169. Anonymous said

    We should not judge whether a counsel or work comes from God by the rate of growth of a religion.

    Certainly Islam is growing. Perhaps Amanda feels that Islam is also “of God”. After all, Brigham Young called himself the second Muhammed.

    Would we not judge whether a counsel or works is of God by whether it is a faithful representation of the scriptures, which are “God breathed”? Does God have one breath that says that He is an exalted man and another breath that abhores the very idea?

    So how would we say that Mormonism is of God, when its teachings contradict the Bible ? Of course we would not and we cannot, unless we ,too, engage in deception both of self and others.

    I am not at all impressed by Jimmy Carter or Hugh Hewitt or conversion experiences of > 30 years or feeling good about one’s decision or elders of > 95 years who adhere to a belief system. Countless millions, ney billions can say the same and they too, are headed for doom.

    If the message is not faithful to the Biblical account–which Mormonism is NOT—then the message is NOT from God.

  170. Brad said

    But you have to remember, Anonymous, in Mormonism it’s all about the “feeling”, the supposed “witness of the Holy Ghost” and the way you’re supposed to FEEL that things are correct.

    Nevermind that the evidence is overwhelmingly against it being true. Nevermind that it doesn’t conform to the teachings of the Bible. Nevermind that countless millions are being led astray.

    It just “feels” right, so it must be from God, right? That’s their line, and they’re sticking to it.

  171. Anonymous said

    amanda its brett,first i want to make sure you understand im not argueing with you over scriptur or at all.im talking with the ut most love,about the most passionet thing in my life and thats my lord my God jesus.the poblem i have is from gal.1:8but even if we,or a ANGLE FROM HEAVEN,preach any other gospel to you then we have preached to you let him be accursed.God must of thought it was real importent cause he repeted it in verse 9.also 2john 10 if anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrin do not recieve him.7 goes as well many decievers have gone into the world who do not confess jesus came in the flesh.this is a deciever and antichrist.2peter 2:1but there were false profets amongthe people and even among you,who will secretly bring in destuctive heresies.even denying the lord who bought them,and bring on themselves swift destruction.(what hapend to mr smith?)and many will follow there blasphemes ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphied.by covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words:for a long time their judjement has not been idle and there destruction does not slumber.have you ever thought amanda right now God is useing us to show you the trueth?to save you from Gods wrath?at least be open minded amanda and feel free to show me any thing you think i have said is wrong.cause i am open minded.with the love of christ in me,brett.ps they are right look at tho moslems and so forth.

  172. Anonymous said

    2 Tim 4

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.

    There are many myths in Mormonism–
    tribes in America with absolutely no historical or archaeological evidence; golden plates; “reformed Egyptian”– a language that has never existed, aomg many others.

    Dear Mormon Friends: do not desire to have your ears tickled.

  173. Anonymous said

    The scientific, archaeological and historical evidence continues to support the Bible. (see below). Where is the evidence for the BOM?

    JERUSALEM — An Israeli archaeologist on Tuesday said he has found the tomb of King Herod the Great, the legendary builder of ancient Jerusalem and the Holy Land.

    Hebrew University archaeologist Ehud Netzer said the tomb was found at Herodium, a flattened hilltop in the Judean Desert where Herod the Great built a palace compound. Netzer has been working at the site since the 1970s.

  174. amanda said

    Friends,

    It’s hard to remain silent when I read your responses.
    Understandably, you are not impressed by anything I could say–a mortal, belonging to a much-maligned church which you presume to be authorities on because of what you’ve read and been taught or had limited experience with.(If you truly knew anything about Bringham Young, you wouldn’t be using the Mohammed quote. He acknowledged, as did many others, that he was much better known as the “latter-day Moses!”) Nor is God, believe me, impressed by anything any of us have said–especially in a spirit of condemnation and bickering. However, might you be impressed by the concept of “freedom of religion” upon which our nation was founded? I hope so. You might also take a few notes from our missionaries who never go into a home and badmouth a person’s religion before teaching them the gospel. They are confident in God’s “wares.” The message, accompanied by the Spirit, sells itself for those prepared to hear it. I would not go to the Baptists to learn about the Presbyterians; nor would I go to a man’s enemies to learn about his true character. We learn about Jesus from eye witness disciples, not from the Pharisees, and in like manner, I learned about it in the very beginning by those who had received a witness of it from God and seen the truthfulness of it in the Church and in their own lives–sometimes at great sacrifice.
    The man who said his brain would tell him not to pray about the BOM or the church because of what he thinks he knows about it, had a point, but I can only tell you the reason I prayed about it: I felt the Spirit of God with a member across the street and with the members when I visited the Church. I heard their miraculous testimonies, and I wanted–no, “had” to know for myself if it were true. I decided I would just continue to learn until I knew it wasn’t true. I prayed each day, and the rest I told you in a previous response.

    Brad, it is not all about “feelings,” for us–only in your eyes. However,if I have no feelings when reading the scriptures or doing the Lord’s will, I am definitely not in touch with the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost doesn’t work apart from our minds, but our hearts, the seat of our feelings, are incorporated as well. As I mentioned, the Lord gave us the way to know something clearly– he who doeth the will of the Father will know (if it is true) or “whether I speak of myself.”

    As for sound doctrine, there is nothing I believe as a Latter-day Saint that the Apostles who wrote the Bible didn’t know. Since the books of the Bible were often written to members of the church or branches of the church, some things didn’t need to be addressed in detail, and supporting passages of restored truths can be easily overlooked or ignored without the second witness of Christ, the Book of Mormon. We do not hesitate to read the Bible through the lens of the Restoration, the Book of Mormon and living prophets. Yet supplementation is not the same as contradiction. Insights beyond that which are taught in the Bible are, to me, internal evidences of their truthfulness because they enlighten my mind and feed my soul.

    It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to look around and see that there are a myriad of interpretations in Christendom — many doctrines that claim the Bible as their source–and thus a myriad of Christian churches. This created the need for a second book of scripture, one pure in its origin, from which the true meaning of the Bible could be obtained. (Some of it is obvious, but the doctrine of Christ has been twisted through the generations.) Even John Wesley knew and said that the church in his day had no authority or hope for authority without God sending Apostles anew. The message of the BOM evidences its own truthfulness. The Book of Mormon today is a tangible evidence that Joseph Smith is a prophet. It is to our dispensation what the testimony of the apostles and prophets who had seen the resurrected Lord and touched his wounds were to those in His generation.

    The historical Christian world has declared the Bible to be complete and the heavens to be sealed to revelation. (Why then do we pray?) They have declared the biblical descriptions of God to be simply metaphorical and accepted in their place a faith in the incorporeal and incomprehensible God of the early ecumenical councils. Because we do not accept as inpired these conclusions, we are declared unorthodox and unchristian. Ironically, our loyalty to biblical Christian doctrine gets us the non-Christian label.

    The Catholic and Protestant worlds declare themselves Christian on basis of their loyalty to what are known as the Apostolic and Nicene Creeds, and so creeds become the issue. The God of the creeds is without “body, parts, or passions.”
    (“God” in the Bible is sometimes singe, referring to the Father or to the Lord God Jehovah, sometimes plural–in the image of God, male and female, created He them…, sometimes referring to the Godhead.) The Son of the creeds seems to be the mind or reflection of the Father. For us to be accepted as Christian when held hostage to this standard, we must deny our biblical faith that Christ is actually and literally the Son of God. We are willing to give unto all people the right to believe “how, where , or what they may” (Article of Faith 11), but we are not willing to concede to them the right to determine whether we are Christian or not. In the Bible, those who are loyal to Christ are called “saints” (Acts 9:13) A dictionary definition of Christian is simply “one who professes a belief in or follows Jesus Christ.” Because we both believe in and follow Chirst, we declare ourselves to be Christians. “Mormonism” declares that the heavens are open and that both God and the truths of Salvation can be known with perfect surety. There is no common ground on this point.
    Think about it: if Mormonism were not true, it could be easily ignored. if Joseph Smith were not a prophet of God, that 14 year old boy’s name would not be “known througout the world for good and evil” as the Angel Moroni predicted it would.

    None of you would think it unfair to read your knowedge and testimony of Christ into the prophecies of the OT. To fail to do so would be denying your testimony of Chirst and the explanations he gave of the scriptures. For members of my faith to fail to read our testimonies of the restored gospel into the Old and New Testaments would be a denial of that which Christ has revealed and restored to us.

    Lastly, Please take note of what Joseph Smith said of taking the gospel to others:

    If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compell any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will will cut its own way. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contneding with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship in their midst.”

    The LDS God is the God of all creation–infinite, eternal, and onmi-loving. He is the God of the Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus and Moslems and all those who seek to know and love and offer praise and adoration to the true and living God. I do not believe He loves me or Latter-day Saints any more than he loves you or Jews or Muslims. He loves us all, His spirit children, and is pleased with any and every halting effort on our part to learn of him, serve him, and be true to the light within us.”

    Joseph also taught: “If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a Mormon, I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination; for the same principle which would trample the rights of the Ropman Catholics, or of any other denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves would trample the rights of the Latter-day Saints.”

    No, it wouldn’t be wise to judge a religion based upon its numbers, and that is why we are told in James 1:5, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him sk of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord.”

    This is the scripture that drove Joseph to the grove. It’s the scripture that gave me the faith to pray about the Restoration. Why? Because I was raised on and believed the Bible. Don’t take my word and testimony as truth…although sadly, it’s all I have to give you. Ask of the Lord. When it gets right down to it, I believe that you do not believe in the Bible because of the archaelogical evidences. You do not believe in the resurrected Christ because of evidences; you believe because of the feelings and knowledge you have received from the Spirit as you read of Him in the Bible.

    “Mormonism” takes nothing away from the Jesus of the Bible; it only gives more knowledge. It doesn’t change his identity, his purpose or character, and it clarifies his being. He is the risen Lord in the same glorious body in which He ascended to Heaven and in which He will return as the angels have said!

    Love in Christ,
    Amanda

  175. Brad said

    As with you, Amanda, it is hard for me to not respond when I see your responses.

    “Think about it: if Mormonism were not true, it could be easily ignored. if Joseph Smith were not a prophet of God, that 14 year old boy’s name would not be “known througout the world for good and evil” as the Angel Moroni predicted it would.” (Amanda)

    By your reasoning, you are saying that since Mormonism IS true, it can’t be easily ignored, and since Joseph Smith WAS a prophet, his name is known throughout the world, as predicted. Let’s apply this to Islam. Using your logic, it would stand to reason that Islam is MORE TRUE than Mormonism, since it is less easily ignored than Mormonism (by virtue of the sheer number of adherents to Islam vs. Mormonism). It would also stand to reason that Mohammed is MORE of a prophet than Joseph Smith, since Mohammed’s name is much more widely known than Smith’s in the world. Here’s the problem, though – neither Mormons nor Christians believe the same as Muslims. Muslims don’t have near the same beliefs about Jesus as either Mormons or Christians. So Mormonism, Islam and Christianity can’t ALL be true, since they have different beliefs about the same person. It doesn’t have anything at all to do with how widely recognized a name is. Tom Cruise’s name is pretty widely recognized, but it doesn’t mean he (or his religion) can save you. So if Mormonism, Christianity and Islam can’t ALL be true, that means that unless you believe truth is relative (do you??), that only ONE of them can be true. Which means that Mormonism and Christianity can’t both be true at the same time, which means one of us is wrong – dead wrong – about what we believe.

    “The LDS God is the God of all creation–infinite, eternal, and onmi-loving. He is the God of the Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus and Moslems and all those who seek to know and love and offer praise and adoration to the true and living God.” (Amanda)

    Incorrect. According to Mormon beliefs, God the Father had a Father (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105.) Leaving the Middle and Far Eastern religions out for a moment, Catholics and Protestants most assuredly DO NOT have this understanding of God, nor can it even be implied from the Scriptures. In fact, you can’t even make the claim that Mormonism believes God is infinite and eternal, otherwise He would have had to be in existence from the beginning, which, if He Himself had a Father, would be logically impossible. So which is it? Is God eternal and infinite, as you say, which means that He had no Father of His own (thus disputing Mormon writings on record)? Or did He have a Father, in accordance with Mormon writings on record, but contradicting what you say above? It can’t possibly be both ways, Amanda.

    “Don’t take my word and testimony as truth…although sadly, it’s all I have to give you.” (Amanda)

    Sadly, it’s all that Mormonism in and of itself has to offer, Amanda. According to the http://www.Mormon.org website, “You can know if the things you are learning are true if you ask your Heavenly Father in prayer. He desires for you to know the truth, and you can receive an answer from Him through the Holy Ghost. As taught in the Bible, “The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, [and] temperance” (Galatians 5:22–23). These feelings from the Holy Ghost are personal revelation to you that the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is true. You will then need to choose whether you will live in harmony with the knowledge you have received.

    As the Savior taught in the Bible, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you ( Matthew 7:7). Feelings from the Holy Ghost are personal revelation to you that confirm the truth of the Book of Mormon and the gospel of Jesus Christ as restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.” Even according to your church’s own informational website, Amanda, feelings ARE the deciding factor when trying to determine whether Mormonism is true or not. That’s odd, b/c you said earlier that it wasn’t. Why can feelings be the only evidence for Mormonism? B/c no other evidence exists.

    “When it gets right down to it, I believe that you do not believe in the Bible because of the archaelogical evidences. You do not believe in the resurrected Christ because of evidences; you believe because of the feelings and knowledge you have received from the Spirit as you read of Him in the Bible.” (Amanda)

    I believe in Jesus Christ as explained in the Bible as my Lord and Savior b/c of what I read in the Bible, and b/c I have seen evidence of His work in my life and the lives of others. I take the Bible on faith – HOWEVER, I have also done much research into ensuring that the Bible is true, that what it says can be verified. And every historical, archaeological, and scientific claim it makes can be backed up by evidence, not just feelings, but evidence. We have thousands of copies of manuscripts, numerous artifacts, testimony that Christ appeared to not just 2 men, but to thousands. The Bible makes no mention of Christians needing any other book or any further revelation from God in order to gain their salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. So the Bible itself does not even support the BOM as necessary.

    “‘Mormonism’ takes nothing away from the Jesus of the Bible; it only gives more knowledge. It doesn’t change his identity, his purpose or character, and it clarifies his being. He is the risen Lord in the same glorious body in which He ascended to Heaven and in which He will return as the angels have said!” (Amanda)

    Mormonism takes MUCH away from the Jesus of the Bible! It diminishes his Divinity to just 1 of 3 separate persons, rather than 1 form of a triune God. It DOES change his identity and nature. It is sad, and it is leading millions astray. Don’t be misled, Amanda; look at the evidence. Why do you think Mormonism uses circular logic as its proof? Read this, and then pray to see whether it’s true or not? Of course people will think it’s true, not b/c of the Holy Ghost, but b/c of human nature which wants to be right about something. BUT THERE IS NO EXTERNAL EVIDENCE THAT MORMONISM OR THE BOM IS TRUE. NONE!

  176. Anonymous said

    “And every historical, archaeological, and scientific claim it makes can be backed up by evidence, not just feelings, but evidence.”

    Well, the Bible isn’t a science book and there are some things in the Bible that we will never have scientific evidence for. There are things in the Bible that scientific study contradicts and there are some things that scientific study supports.

    I really dislike the trend of apologists to assert that the Bible is scientifically perfect.

    From what little I know of it, the Book of Mormon does seem to be pretty far out there scientifically, too.

  177. Brad said

    You give no examples. Do you have some to offer?

  178. Anonymous said

    Sure.

    Exodus?

    Flood?

    Young Earth?

    There are no serious scientific theories which explain these things as read literally in the Bible.

    Now, I am familiar with Answers In Genesis and the other fundamentalist groups. So, if that is what you want to refer us to, then never mind. Those types of psudo-science apologists are who I referred to in the first place.

  179. Anonymous said

    God the father is NOT a man

    “He is NOT a man like me that I might answer him, that we might confront each other in court.”
    (Job 9:32)

  180. Anonymous said

    the Exodus–chariot wheels consistent with Egyptian’s have been found in the red sea.

    Flood– did you ever really buy the idea that the small Colorado river formed the mighty Grand canyon? There is evidence from geological studies of the Bosporus that a great flood occurred.

    young earth– when exactly did the laws of physics come into existence? Is the speed of light a constant? Recent data suggest “no”. The earth may be well younger than we think–how young I don’t know

    But you’re missing a key point. All physical astronomical evidence point out that the universe had a brief “leap” into existence in a matter of a small fraction of a second…out of NO KNOWN pre-existence.

    Consider this…what makes the universe out of nothing —in an instant? “Ex nihilo nihilo fit”.

    God made it !

  181. Brad said

    Scientific “theories” would be the appropriate term, you are right.

    It sounds as if no matter what group I refer you to, you’re already pre-disposed to think it’s not true, so why try? You don’t have an open mind, it would seem.

  182. Anonymous said

    To all Christians now reading this:

    Please pray for the Mormons, pray that God will change their minds, pray that they will discover the truth of the Bible, pray that they will discover the true nature of Jesus and of God the Father.

    Please do a mighty work in their hearts, oh God we pray in Jesus’ name

  183. david said

    I pray now for them, that the Truth will pierce their hearts and minds.

    Please Jesus hear our prayer

  184. Anonymous said

    I am open minded to any real scientific insight you can shed on these things.

    Answers In Genesis, Young Earth, etc. etc. is not what one calls real science, now is it?

    If you think that it is, then, well there’s no use my particpating any further.

    If you think that the Bible is inerrant and literally true then we are not going to enjoy discussing this any further.

    We gave Amanda a break, anyway.

    Ah, how I remember when Christians would come together and rejoice in their belief. Nowadays it is tiring to hear the fundamentalists drone on about their perfect understanding of the universe. I’ll pass.

  185. Anonymous said

    to anonymous:

    NO one has claimed to have a perfect understanding of the universe.

    But we do claim that the Truths revealed in the Bible are sufficient for our salvation, justification and sanctification.

    We don’t need any other “revelation” and we don’t need any other works. Jesus said that “it is finished” on the cross. Our debt is paid in full. We are required to demonstrate our obedience to his commands, but this action flows out of our faith and does nothing in and of itself for our salvation.

    If people like “anonymous” would spread this news and focus less on disparaging “fundamentalists”, then the Gospel would be spread, the Great Commission would be fulfilled.

    WE will understand the rest when we get to heaven.

  186. Anonymous said

    Anonymous, I agree with everything you just said.

    I spend very little of my time disparaging anyone at all, including fundamentalists.

    I do post here on these threads to present a different Christian perspective on these issues. This is a fundamentalist blog for a fundamentalist radio show. I think that fundamentalism is the danger of the world. (Take a look at the Islamic fundamentalists and the nations that they rule (Iraq included).)

    And to return to the topic of this thread I’ll say that if Romney misses his chance at the GOP nomination it will be due to lack of support from the Christian right wing.

  187. Anonymous said

    Regarding—> “I think that fundamentalism is the danger of the world. Take a look at the Islamic fundamentalists and the nations that they rule (Iraq included).”

    To equate Christian fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism is worse than moronic.

    The questions, and the sources of the FUNDAMENTAL differences between Islam and Christianity is this—–What is the source of the fundamentalism? What is its goal ? What motivates it ?

    When you see a surgeon, surely you want that surgeon to be a fundamentalist–ie, to abide by the fundamentals of his art and science. Fundamentalism itself is not bad. Howevere, the objectives and the teachings that drive the fundamentalism may or may not be bad.

    Your statement is really outrageous and reflects ignorant liberalism at its worst. Please THINK and don’t just regurgitate cliches.

  188. Brad said

    “I spend very little of my time disparaging anyone at all, including fundamentalists.” (Anonymous)

    If this were true, you probably shouldn’t have continued below, don’t you think?

    “I do post here on these threads to present a different Christian perspective on these issues. This is a fundamentalist blog for a fundamentalist radio show. I think that fundamentalism is the danger of the world. (Take a look at the Islamic fundamentalists and the nations that they rule (Iraq included).)” (Anonymous)

    Fundamentalism is the danger of the world? I would love to hear that explanation. Islamic fundamentalism is dangerous on 2 levels. One, here on Earth, it is dangerous b/c they are attacking and doing physical harm to others. Two, in light of eternity, it is dangerous b/c the Islamic fundamentalists (and all Muslims, for that matter), are currently on a destination to hell, based on their belief system, which does not include the Biblical Jesus. THAT makes it dangerous. I am a Christian fundamentalist, and I neither harm others physically, nor am I harmed spiritually. Fundamentalism is not the danger – it is sin which is the danger.

    “And to return to the topic of this thread I’ll say that if Romney misses his chance at the GOP nomination it will be due to lack of support from the Christian right wing.” (Anonymous)

    Just to preface, since Romney isn’t Christian, but rather Mormon, that may very well be the case, you never know. That being said, many Christians (myself included) are still undecided about supporting a Mormon for president. Is it morally OK? I would say so, b/c I believe he has high moral standards (as do most Mormons), and his general morals are probably the closest to mine, of all the Republican (or Democratic) candidates. Is it Biblically OK? This I’m still struggling with. I believe we have a Biblical mandate to vote. That being said, I’m still praying and searching the Bible as to what to do.

  189. Anonymous said

    Islamic fundamentalists differ fron Christian fundamentalists in one important way:

    The Islamic fundamentalists have theocracies which empower them to rule oppresively and to sponsor international terrorism.

    The Christian fundamentalists here have a secular government, a wall of seperation that thwarts them from doing the same, Bush’s crusades notwithsatnding.

    “..ignorant liberalism at it’s worst”

    “…worse than moronic”

    Ah, can’t you just feel the brotherly love in those statements?

  190. Anonymous said

    I can also feel the brotherly love in statements equating Christian and Islamic fundamentalism.

  191. Anonymous said

    Back to the main topic….

    Should a Christian vote for a Mormon….

    NO !

  192. Amanda said

    Brad, I think your letter in response to my letter shows exactly why, in the end, the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost alone, is able to give a reliable witness of truth. Why else would we need it to receive “the mind and will of God?” (1 Cor. 2:16) How else would we know that God abideth in us? (1 John 3:24) I know personally that you limit the Holy Ghost’s function when you imply that His influence is only based upon “feelings.” I doubt you would deny what the Bible says about the Holy Ghost since it is only “blasphemy against the Holy Ghost” which is unforgiveable. Why? Because once the witness is given to both mind and heart, and you turn against it and deny it, you are denying God himself; and God can do nothing more to teach you of truth and goodness.(Matt. 12:31, 32) There is no stronger witness to be found on this earth.
    From every thing you have said, I would, as an intellectual observer, tend to take your word for it. I had much stronger opposition than yours before I joined the church, and although opposition doesn’t prove something is true, Satan wouldn’t care to oppose it so strongly if it weren’t.

    Read 1 John 3:19-24 in full. This is where your evidence–the primary evidence that God cares about and holds us accountable for–is found: “And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we KNOW that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”

    This is the evidence I do have, and thus I know that the Restoration and the latter-day work is true. I have read many books by now of outside evidences and ongoing research that gives me hope for for and intellectually all the nonessential evidences I need. I know that people used to ridicule the possibility of the ancient Americas having horses as referenced in the BOM. Since then, fossils of horses have been discovered that date back to BOM times then; there was supposedly no cement at that time, but ancient cement has been discovered in the ancient Americas. Many other possibilites (even the existence of “chiasmus,” a form of Israelite poetry, is found in the BOM just as it is in the Bible. Possible sites for the BOM activities and names that are found in the BOM have been found today in South America and Guatemala that may or may not prove to establish sites described in the BOM. But guess what? If no evidence of Jesus Christ had been found (that he lived, even; there is still not enough to prove he was resurrected), I have all the evidence I need because the Holy Ghost witnesses of the Biblical truth, and since the Holy Ghost is my companion, He declares my resurrected Savior daily–just as He does the truthfulness of the BOM. You acknowledge, I believe, the power of a changed life in establishing the reality of Jesus Christ. I, and millions of others, can give you that same evidence in our own lives.

    If you well-meaning folks would stop trying to cannonize every single utterance or speculation made by Joseph and Brigham in their earthly existence, and focus on the revelations from God that Joseph received which are the scriptures of the Church, we could have some good and uplifting gospel conversations.
    Joseph simply said there was never a son without a father. Do I believe that Heavenly Father had a father? Perhaps. Who could know but God? It’s nothing I’ve spent two minutes thinking about because we only have one God who has communicated with our world, one God with whom I can communicate and am accountable to, one God found in both the BOM and the Bible who has revealed himself in no uncertain terms. That is primarily Jesus Christ. But Christ taught us all we know about the Father. He represented Him in all things through Divine Investiture, and He askes us to pray to the Father in his name. I am obedient to my Savior in this way as I worship God.
    You’re right that the evidence of changed lives is one evidence that cannot be refuted–just as is a personal testimony.

    Christianity and “Mormonism” CAN both be true, Brad, to the extent that the Bible and the reality of Jesus Christ are both of God and are truth. Christianity could even be seen as a preliminary to “Mormonism” since without the Reformation, the climate of our nation could not have given birth to the Restoration. Many people are converted to Christ–and thus Christianity, regardless of doctrine, before ever coming into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As I said, one cannot accept and believe in the BOM without believing in the Bible and accepting its principles. That belief, however, must not be skin deep–based upon only the archaelogical evidences of Christianity.

    I consider you a brother in Christ,

    Amanda

  193. Brad said

    Amanda,

    You say that “Christianity and Mormonism CAN both be true, to the extent that the Bible and the reality of Jesus Christ are both of God and are truth…Many people are converted to Christ–and thus Christianity, regardless of doctrine, before ever coming into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

    Based on the Bible, and in 1 John, which you like to use, it says in 1 John 2:19 “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” John was talking to a church that had experienced what we might term a “split”, where some of the “members” left, and he addressed this to the remaining church by saying that if they had REALLY belonged to us (in context, meaning if they were TRULY saved), they wouldn’t have left; since they did (in context, meaning they WEREN’T truly saved), they showed they never belonged to us in the first place. No person is ever fully saved in the Christian church, and then goes to a LDS church and becomes part of the Mormon faith; if they do, they show they were never saved in the first place, and never fully trusted in Jesus and His Word.

    Amanda, you are so hung up on the “burning in the bosom”, the “witness of the Holy Ghost”, that it has made you blind to the truth. Suppose I was seeking the answer to an important question, and I begin to think about how to find the answer. I have two choices; first, I can pray and seek the answer. During my prayer, I might have a feeling that leads me to feel I have found the answer. Thus, I have determined the answer from the way I feel or results from my prayer. Or, second, I can seek the answer by testing the subject by proven and demonstrable facts and evidences. Suppose I have a feeling that I have found the answer, but I want to make sure. I then objectively submit my conclusion (derived from the feeling I experienced) to the test of the known and provable facts.

    Which results would you think would be better; the answer I got from how I felt about it, or the answer I got from examining the provable facts about the matter? Let’s also broaden the matter and say two different people were seeking the same answer to a question. Both used the “feeling” or “experiential” method and they came up with two different opposing answers!? How would you determine which was correct? Without any evidence to support the feelings, it would be impossible to say, since you each used the SAME method to arrive at a DIFFERENT conclusion! You can’t both be right!

    Mormons will say that they “know” the LDS church is right because they had an experience which made them feel it was correct (the “witness of the Holy Ghost”). This can’t be compared to Biblical Christianity. What a Biblical Christian believes, can be proved and demonstrated from the Bible, which can be proven to be the accurate and infallible Word of God. That is why a Biblical Christian believes it. He can test to see if his feelings are correct by checking them out with what God has revealed in the Bible. He knows the many warnings in the Bible about false teachers and Satan’s work to deceive people. He may also have strong feelings that he is correct, and that his faith is real, but the DIFFERENCE is his feelings and trust are based on what the Bible says! Suppose someone comes along and asks how can a Biblical Christian prove his feelings are correct? The answer is simple. Because what a Biblical Christian believes correctly reflects the teachings of the Bible, and no other book, the Bible alone.

    Amanda, I have never prayed and asked God if the Book of Mormon is true, and I never will. The simple reason is that God has NOT told us this was the way to determine what is true or false. He does not tell us to pray and ask which faith is true, as the LDS church teaches. He proclaims the Bible, His only revealed Word as the only Truth and we are to believe it (2 Tim. 3:16-17). It is not necessary to ask God a question that He has already answered. God has told us in the Bible what is true faith and what is true salvation. So it is not necessary to ask God, but to obey and follow what He has said in the Bible. I know the Book of Mormon is not true because the Bible judges it to be false.
    As a Bible believing Christian, the Bible is my sole authority for my faith and practice. Nowhere in the Bible does God say, “Pray about whether what I have said is true and I will give you the answer.”

    So I am told by God to believe, and obviously what Christians are to believe is what God has said in His record and preserved Word, the Bible (and the Bible alone). Over the years many people have prayed and asked the question, “What is true?” One prayed and felt he was being told that Hinduism was right, another Buddhism, another Catholicism and so on. These religions are so vastly different, with different views of God, salvation, etc… that they cannot ALL be correct. But people believe them according to “feelings.” The problem is when you pray and ask for a feeling of what is true…how do you judge if what you feel is true or not? Unless you test it, not by feelings but by evidence, you don’t! Let’s also look at Scripture. Deuteronomy 18:20-22 says “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, ‘How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?’ If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.” Has Joseph Smith ever said anything that hasn’t come true, or has later been proven to be false? Has Jesus Christ? There’s your answer. Let’s also look at Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart of man is desperately wicked and cannot be trusted.” Or proverbs 14:12 “There is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end is death.” Mormonism is that “way.”

    Suppose I went to the store to purchase some mulch. Suppose I scooped into my truck what I thought was 300 pounds. Suppose I went to pay for the mulch and told the clerk it was 300 pounds. Would the store accept my “feeling” I had 300 pounds, or would they weigh it to see how much mulch I had? How then would the clerk determine the weight of my mulch? Would he then use HIS “feelings”, at which point we wouldn’t know whose “feelings” were correct? No, he would use a scale! What if gas stations would set their pumps based on what they “felt” was a gallon? Would you get your gas from there? Probably not, b/c you could never be sure you were getting the correct amount. It is interesting to me that in nearly everything in our daily lives we use an established rule to judge what we come in contact with. Yet, when it comes to knowing about God or religion, some tell us we are to accept our “feelings.”

    The only way to know truth is to compare everything with God’s revealed truth the Bible, and that is why God gave us the Bible. We do not have to pray and ask what is correct and then wait for some subjective, UNTESTABLE emotional feeling to give us the answer. God has taken all the guess work out and gave us his written word. By His very written Word we judge all matters as it is the only authority on what is truth or fallacy. My faith is not based on a subjective prayer I prayed, but on what God has said.

    The day I was saved I prayed and asked God to forgive me and give me eternal life. That was a true prayer for help, and God answered and saved me. I was not praying for truth; I already had the truth, because I knew what God said in the Bible. I prayed in faith and trust and God did what He promised, He saved me.

    Amanda, 1 John 4:1-3 says “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.” By virtue of the fact that the Mormon church believes in a different Jesus than the true Jesus as vividly described only in the Bible, they have NOT acknowledged that Jesus has come in the flesh, b/c they don’t acknowledge the right Jesus.

    Amanda, lastly you said that “one cannot accept and believe in the BOM without believing in the Bible and accepting its principles. That belief, however, must not be skin deep–based upon only the archaelogical evidences of Christianity.” While one cannot believe in the BOM and still hold to the Bible, I will grant you that the belief cannot be just skin deep, based only upon external evidences, but must have faith to accompany. However, I would also say that the belief cannot be just a feeling, either, but must have external evidences to test the beliefs upon, or else you cannot, CANNOT, know it is correct.

    Amanda, I wish I could call you a sister in Christ. I pray for the day when I can. However, based upon your beliefs, I cannot, as we are not worshiping or believing in the same Christ, and I would not want to suggest that we are. I will say that I truly care for you and your eternal soul, else I would not take this time.

    I ask you, set aside the “feelings” you may have, and listen and explore the evidences that many here have given for the lack of credibility of Mormonism. Too many things just don’t add up, Amanda. Don’t simply trust your feelings, b/c they are currently betraying you!

  194. Anonymous said

    Amanda:

    The Holy Ghost will Not give us information that contradicts the Bible.

    Mormonism contradicts the Bible. It may be from a spirit but it is not from the Holy Spirit.

    All the rest is wasted blog space.

  195. moderator said

    Stu is interested in having Brad and Amanda live on the air during Truth Talk Live to have a FRIENDLY debate over these issues. Please respond with a comment if you’re interested. No personal information or identification will be shared over the air.

  196. Anonymous said

    Amanda says “…one cannot accept and believe in the BOM without believing in the Bible and accepting its principles.

    So, do you beleive in one God ?(Isaiah 44:6-8, Deuteronomy 4:35, 39; Deuteronomy 6:4; Mark 12:29; Romans 3:30; Ephesians 4:5-7;1 Timothy 2:5 ; James 2:19 )

    Do you believe that salvation is by faith alone? (Acts 15:11 ;Romans 11:6 ;Ephesians 2:8-9) with good works being a manifestation of faith but that works do not produce salvation?

    Do you recognize the warnings against false prophets (Galatians 1:6-9 ;2 Peter 2:1-3;Matthew 7:15
    ;1 John 4:1) and how that aplies to Mormonism?

  197. Anonymous said

    I want Amanda to address the claim that Brigham Young called himself the second Mohammed …surely this is not true, is it?

  198. Anonymous said

    It was actually old Joe Smith himself who made this statement in Missouri, 1838:

    “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”

    Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231.

  199. Anonymous said

    There are a lot more parallels between Mormonisms and Islam (besides just polygamy).

    Check out this web site:

    http://bsimmons.wordpress.com/tag/mitt-romney/

  200. Amanda said

    “No person is ever fully saved in the Christian church, and then goes to a LDS church and becomes part of the Mormon faith; if they do, they show they were never saved in the first place, and never fully trusted in Jesus and His Word.” (Brad)

    I would say and believe the same about defecting “Mormons”–except I would say they were never “converted” instead of never “saved.” There is still time and hope that they will come back, and in the end, they will have arrived at the “salvation station.” having jumped back on the train and stayed there!

    “Suppose someone comes along and asks, how can a Biblical Christian prove his feelings are correct? The answer is simple. Because what a Biblical Christian believes correctly reflects the teachings of the Bible, and no other book, the Bible alone.”(Brad)

    How is this working for you since most Baptists these days do not even believe in baptism (from whence, I assume, the name of the Baptist church came originally?). Jesus said you can’t even see the kingdom of heaven without being born of water (John 3:5, See also Mark 16:16–”He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” As I said, if the Bible is to be interpreted correctly, ALL of the verses on baptism must be in harmony with what you call Christian doctrine.

    Do you believe that Moses taked with the Lord face to face? (Ex. 33:11, 33:23, Num.12:8, Luke 24:39, Acts 7:56 Philip. 3:21, James 3:9, 1 Jn. 3:2, Rev. 22:4 Or is all that just “anthropomorphism,” a neat little sidestepping of another biblical truth. Either you believe all of the Bible, or you can’t say what you did in the quote above. You are made in the image of God. Are you willing to bet your salvation that that it is only a spiritual image? I would say you couldn’t know which it is unless God told you Himself. When it comes to doctrine, if we believe the Bible, He only taught doctrine through his prophets, through His Son Jesus and His Apostles, and Jesus would have to restore the Apostolic position again to speak authoritatively again on that subject–and all others. Again, the myriad of Christian churches tell us that the Bible alone can be twisted in a million ways. My missionaries told me that the Bible was like one nail of God’s eternal truth hammered into a board, but man has twisted and turned it “any which way but loose!” The Book of Mormon, which contains the same gospel, is like a second nail hammered into the same board. Now that board is secure and cannot be twisted or turned. This is why I am not like a ship tossed by any wind or wave of doctrine. I have read and understood by the Spirit the two testimonies, and I know the doctrine of Christ.
    You say the Bible doesn’t even mention the Book of Mormon? There is more written of the Book of Mormon in the OT than there is of the New Testament as a body of scripture! I gave you one in Ezekiel 37:15-20–The BOM is the stick of Joseph.(That is, if those who put your Bible together didn’t wipe it out. I ran across one which didn’t even mention the two sticks being “joined together in thine hand as one.”

    Ps. 85:11…truth springing out of the earth….
    Isa. 29:4 voice shall be….familiar spirit out of the ground; 29:9-14…vision of all…as the words of a book that is sealed (this encapsulates an entire experience with the writing of the Book of Mormon that actually happened. Joseph is the unlearned one mentioned);
    Rev. 14:6….another angel (Moroni)… having the everlasting gospel…. Of course, God always leaves room for the exercise of faith, and remember that “faith precedes the miracle.” In this case, a testimony of the BOM is the miracle.

    Some of what you said me,Brad, reminded me of what Joseph heard during the First Vision:

    …”They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” Do you not see that you are closing the mouth of God by denying the power and truthfulness of the process of revealtion through prayer and the Holy Ghost? If my answers and what I learned consequently had conflicted with the Bible as God was revealing it to me through the Holy Ghost, I would have walked away.

    Now: How does God want us to search for truth? Since you’ve swept James 1:5 neatly under the carpet, let’s look at the Book of Mormon: What does the Lord tell us through his prophets? I will end with a prophet from ancient America named Moroni:

    ” Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things (the things of the Bible which they had on plates), if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of
    men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
    And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

    This,what we call “Moroni’s challenge,” and it is why I and other Mormons seem “hung up on the burning of the bosom” to you. We put it to the test–and not lightly. We have usually read–and in my case been familiar with– the Bible all of my life. It is foolishness to presume that we didn’t check the beliefs of Mormonism by going to the Bible for bibilical evidences as we were doing so. I was a Christian already although by choice, family tradition, and intellect, primarily–much like you I suspect.
    Those who receive the promised witness from God and who continue to nourish that testimony through obedience to God’s word and scripture study will continue to be strong and will never leave the Church. Once we learn our religion, there is no “going back” because there is no fulfillment elsewhere after having tasted of the fulness of God’s revelations.) BUT…THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING. We are now on a spiritual journey that will yield many evidences–scriptural, spiritual, social, and intellectual. I leave archaeology to those with a passion for it because I have what I want. I’m, of course, very interested, but the scriptures evidences occupy my time and interest more by far. (I think women as a whole, if I may generalize, are more intuitive than men to begin with. Men tend to require more evidences–not always, of course. If you’re interested in putting evidence information (at least some) into your mind, just Google “Evidences of the Book of Mormon” and you will find much of what, I’ll wager, you wouldn’t be interested in even IF IT COULD BE PROVED BEYOND DOUBT! Truthfully, I will be much more pleased to go before God on judgment day and say, “I knew BEFORE there was actual, indisputeable proof.” God’s proof IN his word is all I need.

    “He proclaims the Bible, His only revealed Word as the only Truth and we are to believe it “(2 Tim. 3:16-17). (Brad)

    Really? Where? I READ…”All scripture (WORDS GIVEN TO US THROUGH HIS HOLY PROPHETS AND APOSTLES–WHICH INCLUDES, I NOW KNOW, THE BOOK OF MORMON)is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect (complete) thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
    AND OF COURSE, WE REMEMBER JESUS SAYING TO HIS ENEMIES IN JOHN 5:38-39, “SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES; FOR IN THEM YE THINK (THINK) YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE: AND THEY ARE THEY WHICH TESTIFY OF ME.”

    I would beseech you, Brad, to do the same. The scriptures testify of the times of the restitution of all things (Acts 3:21)
    Matt. 17:11 and Mark 9:12…Elias to come and restore all things.
    Matt. 24:14…gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world…
    Eph.1:10…in the dispensation of the fulness of time….gather together in one all things….(We are in that time now, and the Restoration was the official ushering in of the beginnings of the latter-days.

    The scriptures also testify of the Holy Ghost and the fact that Jesus established a church while He was upon the earth. Why wouldn’t He and couldn’t He establish it again if He loves us as much as He loved His people back then?

    “The only way to know truth is to compare everything with God’s revealed truth the Bible, and that is why God gave us the Bible.” (Brad)

    THAT IS ALSO WHY HE GIVES US THE POWER OF DISCERNMENT THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST, AND IT IS WHY WE NOW HAVE THE BOOK of MORMON. How do you think people knew that Jesus was the Christ when he was teaching? The Jews had perverted the gospel that testified of Him too. Prophecies of Him were all in the books of the OT, but the Holy Ghost was also at work then too, witnessing as He spoke. Jesus had to leave this earth, however, before the Holy Ghost could be sent as a constant companion to guide us, and while it can come and go according to the asking in our lives, the gift as a constant companion is administered to us by the Priesthood after our baptisms.

    Ironically, I have never met an “anti-Mormon who could comprehend the “burning of the bosom”–or anything like receiving an answer or confirmation through the Holy Ghost. It seems to be a frequently untested promise, that James 1:5. Thus, man is left to his own devices which are purely intellectual, speculating about what MY spiritual experiences must really be like since they cannot be real. It would be like my trying to describe the birth of my children to you. (Good analogy, so here it comes again.) You might not believe anything I say about childbirth, and you could try to convince me it was all in my head and didn’t really happen. Being born again spiritually is not something one forgets easily. Mine was a process taking place over 9 months, culminating in my personal, unshakeable witness, and then a life of trying to “talk the talk and walk the walk.” That’s not subjective in the least and it is accompanied by Divine supervision and continued witnesses of the Spirit. I cannot go into the Church or study my scriptures without a witness from the Holy Ghost. It is not usually a burning but an excited feeling filled with desire to do better, be better–like my Savior. It is also a continued feeling of gratitude to my God and an increase of love for my fellow man.

    Did I buy the farm? Yes, indeed, and I cultivated it, planted it, and have harvested it throughout each of my beautiful 30 years in the Church. (By their fruits ye shall know them.)

  201. Amanda said

    Last thoughts, again:

    “Amanda, I wish I could call you a sister in Christ. I pray for the day when I can. However, based upon your beliefs, I cannot, as we are not worshiping or believing in the same Christ, and I would not want to suggest that we are.”

    You mean I still can’t play on your ball team? ( Do you remember this incident in the 80′s?) Truly, as Solomon said, “There is nothing new under the sun.”

    The Good News is:

    It won’t affect my personal relationship with Jesus Christ one iota.

    The Bad News is:

    There is none. We will always be standing here unconditionally with open arms. (I can’t promise, however, that I won’t say, “What took you so long?” :)

    And now, I will take my ball and go home, but I will leave you with these important lessons from the Flood:

    1) Don’t miss the boat.
    2) Remember that we’re all in the same boat.
    3) Plan ahead. It wasn’t raining when Noah built the ark.
    4) Stay fit: When you’re 600 years old, someone may ask you to do something really big.
    5) Don’t listen to critics; just get on with the job that needs to be done.
    6) Build your future on high ground.
    7) For safety’s sake, travel in pairs.
    8)Speed isn’t always an advantage; the snail were there on the ark with the cheetahs.
    9)When you get stressed, float a while.
    10) Remember, the Ark was built by amateurs, the Titanic by professionals. (Think–Joseph Smith? Ecumenical councils?)
    11)No matter the storm, when you are with God, there is always a rainbow waiting.

    THERE ARE SOME QUESTIONS THAT CAN’T BE ANSWERED BY GOOGLE.

    ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IS NO MATCH FOR NATURAL STUPIDITY.

    GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE DID NOT SEND A COMMITTEE.

    LOVE in Christ to, still, a brother–even if he doesn’t agree with me on biblical interpretation,

    Amanda

  202. Anonymous said

    Mormonism is not “another” version of Christianity. It is overtly destructive to the Christian faith by teaching that the Bible is not fully reliable.

    Amanda is certainly cunning, but she is teaching lies from the pit of Hell

  203. Anonymous said

    Amanda–where is Kolob?

    This is where the Mormon god resides (Pearl of Great Price, pages 34-35 )

    Yes, there are many questions that cannot be answered by Google or the internet.

    There are even more that cannot be answered by Mormons.

  204. Brad said

    Moderator,

    I would be more than happy to be on the show to discuss with Amanda, if she agrees to as well.

  205. Brad said

    “How is this working for you since most Baptists these days do not even believe in baptism (from whence, I assume, the name of the Baptist church came originally?). Jesus said you can’t even see the kingdom of heaven without being born of water (John 3:5, See also Mark 16:16—‘He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.’ As I said, if the Bible is to be interpreted correctly, ALL of the verses on baptism must be in harmony with what you call Christian doctrine.” (Amanda)

    Not sure how to respond to the comment on Baptists – I have no idea where you are getting your information from. I am a Baptist, and I believe in the sacrament of baptism, as does my pastor and church as a whole, as do all other Baptist churches of which I’m personally aware. Not sure where this statement comes from, but even to this discussion, it’s irrelevant. For that matter, not sure how this slid to a baptism discussion, but I’ll comment briefly. Let’s suppose that a person, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, believed in Jesus as his savior and has received Christ as Savior. Question – is that person saved? Not sure what your answer is, but mine would be yes, of course. Let’s further suppose that this person confesses his sinfulness, repents to God, and receives Jesus as Savior and then walks across the street to get baptized at a local church. However, in the middle of the road he gets hit by a car and is killed. Does he go to heaven or hell? If your answer is “heaven”, then baptism isn’t necessary for salvation. If your answer is “hell”, then trusting in Jesus, by faith, isn’t enough for salvation, which would clearly go against the Scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9), wouldn’t it? By saying baptism is necessary, this question puts that theory to the test, and the only logical, Biblically-based answer is that it is NOT necessary. Further, the Bible also gives us an example of people who were saved before being baptized. In Acts 10:44-48, Cornelius and those with him were converted through Peter’s message. You can see that they were saved before being baptized, evidenced by their reception of the Holy Spirit (v. 44) and the gifts of the Spirit (v. 46) BEFORE their baptism. In fact, it is the evidence Peter saw that they had received the Holy Spirit (and hence were saved) that led Peter to baptize them! You quote John 3:5 as evidence, and your reasoning is based upon what the “water” in that verse means. There is MUCH debate among even the most highly regarded scholars as to what the “water” in that verse actually means, and each argument has its high and low points. Unless you believe that the “water” in reference means baptism, that text doesn’t provide proof, especially if you view the “water” as the water of the womb, the Bible, or some other meaning. That would take too much time here to dissect that verse. Additionally, you quote Mark 16:16 as evidence that baptism is required – in actuality, this verse is proof of the opposite! Notice that the basis for condemnation in that verse is not the failure to be baptized, but only the failure to believe. Baptism is mentioned in the first part of the verse because it was the outward symbol that always accompanied the inward belief. The verse does not condemn the person b/c they failed to be baptized, but b/c they failed to believe (never mind the fact that Mark 16:9-20 is in and of itself a passage that scholars aren’t even sure is part of the official gospel, as evidenced by a footnote saying as much in most common Bibles). You must evaluate Scripture in light of ALL THE REST OF SCRIPTURE, to interpret it properly, and the rest of Scripture clearly does NOT support that baptism is required for salvation, or there are many verses you would have to completely throw out.

    “You say the Bible doesn’t even mention the Book of Mormon? There is more written of the Book of Mormon in the OT than there is of the New Testament as a body of scripture! I gave you one in Ezekiel 37:15-20–The BOM is the stick of Joseph (that is, if those who put your Bible together didn’t wipe it out. I ran across one which didn’t even mention the two sticks being ‘joined together in thine hand as one.’).” (Amanda)

    Wow. I mean, just, WOW. How the LDS church can possibly believe that Ezekiel 37 even remotely pertains to the BOM is beyond belief. The Mormon Church’s interpretation COMPLETELY ignores the historical background of Ezekiel’s message. In Ezekiel’s time, the nation of Israel was in turmoil, as it had been divided into two kingdoms. The ten northern tribes (called Israel) had earlier been taken captive by the Assyrians. The two southern tribes (the Kingdom of Judah) were taken into captivity by the Babylonians. This “breaking up”, if you will, of God’s covenant people was extremely distressing for the remnant of faithful Hebrew believers – to them, it appeared that God’s promises had failed. This is the setting for chapter 37, where Ezekiel brings a message of comfort and hope. The first part is the vision of the valley of dry bones. Through that vision, God promises to breathe new life into the scattered nation of Israel and bring the people back into the land. Then, in verses 15-22, God promises a future restoration for the whole nation, and announces that some day the northern kingdom, called “Joseph,” and the southern kingdom, called “Judah,” would once again be a united Israel. This is fairly easy to pick up from the context, but requires you to be concerned about the context. It is here we that we find the meaning of the “sticks” that are joined together in Ezekiel 37:15-22. The passage reads as follows: “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Ephraim’s stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.’ Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand. When your countrymen ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.” As you can see, Ezekiel is told to write on one stick “Belonging to Judah, and the Israelites associated with him.” This first stick represented the southern kingdom, or Judah. On a second stick, or piece of wood, Ezekiel was to write, “Ephraim’s stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.” This represented the northern kingdom, called Israel. God then tells Ezekiel, in verse 17, to join the two sticks into one stick and have them become one in Ezekiel’s hand. In doing so, God is saying that He will bring back together His divided people. That is the true meaning of the two sticks and their being joined together, which verses 21 & 22 state fairly explicitly. As can be plainly seen, the prophecy of Ezekiel 37:16-17 has a specific historical context, and is a prediction of the future unity of God’s divided covenant people. The attempt by the Mormon Church to make this passage a prediction regarding the Book of Mormon violates the clear historical, grammatical context of the passage.
    In addition, it would appear that the BOM itself proves this passage CANNOT refer to the BOM! Let me refer you to Alma 10:3 “And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.” But wait – in Ezekiel 37, Joseph is identified with Ephraim, not Manasseh, and it is this stick which you say references the BOM. So which is it? If Ephraim is correct, then Alma 10 is not correct, which would mean it isn’t inspired by God (or anyone else for that matter). If Manasseh is correct, then you falsely quote Ezekiel 37 to say the “stick of Joseph” refers to the BOM. It can’t go both ways. I’d love to see an explanation from a non-Mormon theologian who also believes that this “stick” refers to the BOM. You won’t find a Christian theologian who thinks so. Why can’t the stick also refer to the Koran? To the Hindu scriptures? To Sports Illustrated? You can think it refers to anything you want, but interpreted correctly in light of the Bible and historical context, you CANNOT conclude that it refers to the BOM, no matter how bad the LDS church wants it to be. The other verses you mention (Psalms 85, Isaiah 29, Revelation 14) are all just more examples of the above – the LDS church choosing to believe that the Scripture is talking about Mormon figures, and then saying that the Bible’s “testimony” of the BOM is a miracle. There’s simply no basis to it whatsoever.

    “How does God want us to search for truth? Since you’ve swept James 1:5 neatly under the carpet, let’s look at the Book of Mormon: What does the Lord tell us through his prophets? I will end with a prophet from ancient America named Moroni: ‘Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things (the things of the Bible which they had on plates), if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost.’” (Amanda)

    Amanda, I have already addressed the “feelings” issue in a previous post. What “Moroni” said was to ask yourself internally if what you read is true, wait for the feeling (supposedly from the Holy Ghost), and then you’ll know. What “Moroni” doesn’t say is to examine Scripture for evidence, as the Bible says. I don’t sweep James 1:5 under the carpet – it just doesn’t deal with this issue, and you’re trying to make it so. James is writing to Christians, those who already believe, and he is talking about wisdom in light of the trials they are undergoing at that moment, and explaining to them that God uses those to increase faith. In it’s context, that verse isn’t talking about examining core doctrine to see if it’s correct. In Acts, Paul commends the Bereans NOT for examining their feelings to see if what they believe is correct, but for examining the Scriptures to see if it holds water. Mormonism doesn’t want that to happen. And when anyone brings it up, as I have, a Mormon ALWAYS relents to the “witness of the Holy Ghost”, b/c at the end of the day, the feeling is all they have, as it doesn’t hold to the Bible.

    “Just Google ‘Evidences of the Book of Mormon’ and you will find much of what, I’ll wager, you wouldn’t be interested in even IF IT COULD BE PROVED BEYOND DOUBT! Truthfully, I will be much more pleased to go before God on judgment day and say, “I knew BEFORE there was actual, indisputable proof.” God’s proof IN his word is all I need.” (Amanda)

    I agree. For anyone who is in doubt, google it and see what comes up. You will find some of the most ridiculous and far-fetched “proofs” that the BOM is true. You’ll hear a lot of words and phrases like “possible”, “could be”, “candidate”, “plausible”, etc… in a lot of these “proofs”, meaning that it’s not even definitive, but is, in the Mormons’ opinion, at least a possibility. A lot of things are a possibility, but that doesn’t make them true, nor does it make them evidence. Mormons will always hold to the “testimony of the Holy Ghost” as their primary evidence.

    “[God] proclaims the Bible, His only revealed Word as the only Truth and we are to believe it “(2 Tim. 3:16-17). (Brad)
    “Really? Where? I READ…”All scripture (WORDS GIVEN TO US THROUGH HIS HOLY PROPHETS AND APOSTLES–WHICH INCLUDES, I NOW KNOW, THE BOOK OF MORMON)is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect (complete) thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
    AND OF COURSE, WE REMEMBER JESUS SAYING TO HIS ENEMIES IN JOHN 5:38-39, “SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES; FOR IN THEM YE THINK (THINK) YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE: AND THEY ARE THEY WHICH TESTIFY OF ME.” (Amanda)

    What YOU do is read INTO the passage, you don’t just read it. YOUR definition of Scripture includes the BOM, but let’s look at it IN IT’S PROPER CONTEXT. Did the BOM exist back then? No. So when Timothy refers to “Scripture”, he is in no way including the BOM in that definition. Mormons like to lump the BOM into that category, but that is neither implied nor stated there, and does not fit into the context. Same thing in John 5, where Jesus told them to “search the Scriptures, because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me…” Scripture, in that context speaking to that audience, would only have been various OT Scriptures, and by extension, following the Law, since it was Jews he was talking to. Again, this only refutes the fact that the Scriptures (the Law) actually save you – it doesn’t refute the fact that there’s enough information IN the Bible alone to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus!

    “And now, I will take my ball and go home, but I will leave you with these important lessons from the Flood:

    1) Don’t miss the boat.
    2) Remember that we’re all in the same boat.
    3) Plan ahead. It wasn’t raining when Noah built the ark.
    4) Stay fit: When you’re 600 years old, someone may ask you to do something really big.
    5) Don’t listen to critics; just get on with the job that needs to be done.
    6) Build your future on high ground.
    7) For safety’s sake, travel in pairs.
    8)Speed isn’t always an advantage; the snail were there on the ark with the cheetahs.
    9)When you get stressed, float a while.
    10) Remember, the Ark was built by amateurs, the Titanic by professionals. (Think–Joseph Smith? Ecumenical councils?)
    11)No matter the storm, when you are with God, there is always a rainbow waiting.” (Amanda)

    Here’s my responses to those:

    1) I haven’t, but Mormons have.
    2) We’re not – only those who were following God’s call were in the boat, many were drowned.
    3) I have – I’m saved.
    4) We don’t live that long anymore. Another result of sin.
    5) I don’t, but I know why and when they’re wrong.
    6) I have, it’s in Heaven.
    7) Jesus went alone to the cross, He didn’t need any help from anyone else (Think – Joseph Smith??)
    8) No, but time is of the essence, b/c the race can end unexpectedly at any moment.
    9) Ask the Laodicean church about being lukewarm or floating.
    10) I’ll take an amateur called by God over a professional not called any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.
    11) I agree, but you need to be sure it’s with the God of the Bible

    Amanda, I don’t agree with you on many things, not just Biblical interpretation. I continue to pray that the veil over your eyes placed by the deception of the LDS church will be removed, and you can see clearly how God and the Bible are all you need.

  206. Amanda said

    Wow! And double WOW!

    As I suspected, Brad, you don’t even have a sense of humor! ;) (wink) (Much less a ball team I’d want to play on.)

    Every time I think I’m through, you throw out things that I cannot let stand. The uninitiated (by “anti”-toxins) may believe you although I doubt any of them would be found on this blog.

    Again, your doctrinal exposition on salvation, baptism, and the “sticks” show exactly why a Restoration was needed. You cannot say salvation is free in any way other than as the Apostles intended; it is free to all those willing to receive and obey (yes, you have to read other scriptures to know that, and as you proved, the nail in the board analogy is still true. In my pre-”Mormon” days, I would have been confused too.) No one is excluded from “receiving” the gospel, and that is the word in Mormoni 10′s challenge that you overlooked. “Receiving” involves your heart which will influence you to action, not just lip service. WE must “receive” the Ot, he is saying to receive the wintess of the prophets of ancient America–we must be living in our own feeble way what we already know of God’s word. How do I know that? Because your and my God is also the God of the Old Testament who in Exodus 20:6, says, “I the Lord God am a jealous God, …shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.” Because in Hebrews 10:23, we are told, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. (It doesn’t say, “we weren’t really saved to begin with–an obvious manmade concoction–we won’t name names). And… because Jesus could have come, died and been resurrected without setting the example we are to follow, complete with teachings, if he hadn’t intended us to actually live by that example on our way to exaltation.
    In fact, a chunck of our doctrinal differences on these topics occurs because what you refer to as “salvation,” we refer to as “conversion.” It is true that when you are converted, you are “saved” as long as you remain on God’s side of the line in honestly trying to follow his words and using the gift of repentance; and although “what God doeth, it lasteth forever,” what man doeth, doesn’t. WE make a covenant with God, and if we do not uphold our end, we have broken the covenant, and He is not bound by it. Admittedly, most Christians are not necessarily a covenant people since baptism may not be a covenant to you from what you said.

    We are here PARTLY to be tested and proven, and like David of old, man is capable of going off the beaten path–the straight and narrow path which “LEADS” to salvation. (It is not one of those flat airway escalators that transports you without your having to move your feet.) Although repentance can occur at any point, David’s eternal reward will not be as glorious as one who never was distracted enough to be involved with murdering his fellowman. Thus: the kingdoms of glory. If I didn’t know Joseph Smith was a prophet already, and then if I read Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants, I would know at that point because the Spirit witnesses to the mind and heart of its truthfulness to the sincere seeker of truth. What did the Jesus mean when he said, “there are many mansions” in Heaven? What was Paul talking about when he mentioned “the glory of the celestial” (1 Cor.15:40), and in 2 Cor. 12:2-4, being “caught up to the third heaven?” Again, section 76 leaves no doubt about how God handles our salvation, and my conclusion is that the BOM supports, verifies, and clarifies the Bible. Again, I don’t really expect anyone to take my word for it. God has promised a witness to this church, and I’m not aware of any other church that can say that.

    Meanwhile, all of us may be converted to Christ as Cornelius was. Yes, he was converted, but he was also baptized by an authorized minister of God (Acts 10:47,48) after being commanded to in the name of the Lord. If he hadn’t been, the Spirit would have eventually withdrawn and he wouldn’t have joined the Lord’s church. Amazingly, the Holy Ghost turns out to be Peter’s “primary” proof that Cornelius had been converted too, as it is today. I would imagine Peter felt those “feelings” too, or a “burning of the bosom,” as well hearing the speaking with tongues (v.44,45). (How do I know that Cornelius would have lost the Spirit and not joined the church if he hadn’t been baptized? I’ve witnessed it in the restored church, and it is consistent with the word of God. It’s like any other talent; when we don’t use it, we lose it. (Take my piano playing after 6 years of lessons!)If Cornelius had been killed before he had been baptized, would he have been saved? Most certainly. (As you know, we believe in baptism for the dead.) If he had lost the spirit through being inactive, would he? Yes, but in a lesser kingdom of glory–the terrestial kingdom. (1 Cor. 15:41) Again, none of what I say matters unless an actual restoration took place. You won’t even find this information in the Book of Mormon. (I would love for you to read it, but you’ve invested so much of yourself in supporting the “anti” cause that I’m sure pride wouldn’t let you at this point. Too much to lose–and not your salvation, so don’t go there!)

    Also, if you’d had Saul’s dramatic experience with the Lord on the road to Damascus, had been blinded, and then had your sight restored, I’ll bet you would have run right out, considered yourself “called” as a preacher of God, and taken the gospel to the world, right? Not Paul. He received his sight, administered to by a legal administrator of God, Ananias. Then Paul “arose, and was baptized.” In fact, Jesus was baptized to “fulfill all righteousness.” (Matt.3:15), and so, excuse me if I think that when one reads all the biblical scriptures, and sees also that the Apostles went to the trouble to go “where there was much water” to do their baptizing, there is little confusion in my mind over what being born of the water and the spirit means in the Bible. The waters of birth? Yes, but only in the sense of a symbolic spiritual birth. Romans 6:1-6, Col. 2:12….(Again, one must apply his God-given power to reason and make appropriate deductions. Only then does the witness of the Spirit accompany one’s conclusion. You should have heard the discussion I had with my missionaries about how baptism wasn’t necessary in my mind. It wasn’t until a good brother was brought “on exchange” one night with one of the missionaries, and he opened my mind with words of the Latter-day prophets; and later, I read this story of Paul under the influence of the Spirit, and I doubted no more that baptism was essential. At least the church is consistent. If one must be baptized, the ordinance must be performed for every mortal ever born.)

    Where did I get the idea that the Baptists no longer believe in baptism as essential? From 14 years of hosting a “No More Strangers” seminar for the graduate students of the Southern Baptist Wake Forest Theological Seminary in Raleigh.

    This is a portion of Brad, here:
    …”it would appear that the BOM itself proves this passage CANNOT refer to the BOM! Let me refer you to Alma 10:3 “And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.” But wait – in Ezekiel 37, Joseph is identified with Ephraim, not Manasseh, and it is this stick which you say references the BOM. So which is it?” (I wish you knew the rest of the BOM as well as you know the “anti” attempts at conflicting passages.

    Ezekiel calls this stick, “the stick of Ephraim” and “the stick of Joseph in the hand of Ephraim.”
    Similarly, he calls the Bible “the stick of Judah.” The promise was that these two records would become on stick in the Lord’s hand in the day of the gathering of Israel. (Exek. 37:15-28)
    In those days, it is well known that records were kept on parchment rolled upon sticks. There have also been found wooden sections with pages of wax upon which records were kept. (Actually, the wax had long been gone, but they are referenced in ancient writings. These were also referred to as sticks. The prophecies of Jeremiah were written and rolled round a stick and were called a book; regardless, these were the records of the tribe of Joseph and the tribe of Judah. Joseph was given great prophecies by his father on his deathbed. Where is the record of their fulfillment? The Book of Mormon.

    The Book of Mormon is the stick of Joseph in the hands of Ephraim, the brother of Manasseh, in that it records God’s dealings with a portion of the tribe of Joseph, the record of which came forth by way of latter-day Ephraim (Jospeh Smith was of the tribe of Ephraim) and is now in the hands of church members ( former Gentiles) who are nearly all of Ephraim. Many of us are adotped into the tribe of Ephraim upon our baptism.
    This isn’t the first prophecy that has double meaning in the Old Testament. We also believe that the sticks represent the southern and northern kingdoms of Israel. Nothing new there.

    …”there’s enough information IN the Bible alone to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus!”

    We’re in solid agreement here; however, and the bottom line is: if you knew that Jesus Christ had established His true and living church here upon the earth along with His authority through the priesthood–not the so-called “priesthood of all believers,” but the actual apostolic priesthood–the “what you bind upon the earth shalt be bound in heaven and what thou sooseth upon the earth shall be loosed in heaven” priesthood, wouldn’t you want to be notified ahnd at least have the choice of whether or not to become a part of it?

    I can only testify to you, along with millions, that He has and that is the “marvelous work and a wonder” in the latter days spoken of by Isaiah. You should now see why Mormons are wasting their time–either on the air time of an anti-Mormon show or on an anti-Mormon station or emailing critics who demand an answer to every minute, erroneous accusation since our doctrine cannot, should not be reduced to a bumper sticker. Even what we have done–shed many, many words on each other, doesn’t scratch the surface. You are predisposed to believe the doctrine of traditional Christianity which combines the ideas of man mixed with scripture. ( I can and do when visiting churches) quote the Apostles Creed myself in good conscience. I take and believe the Bible at face value, but the Bible wasn’t even an entity when each of the books it includes was written, so the curses of Revelation often thrown at us apply to only the book in which it was written. The Lord could have put those curses on each book in the Book of Mormon too. It is a sin to change God’s words; not to receive more of them if He can prove to you that they are true. And let me tell you, God doesn’t care how many archaelogical evidences you come up with. If you have not the proof given by the Holy Ghost, your faith is skin deep. (That’s the nice way of putting it.) I personally believe that we definitely have the books that God intended us to have in the Bible, but to say that this is all the words God has spoken, can speak, or will ever speak to mankind is blashpemy. What is my proof? The Book of Mormon and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.When the Second Coming occurs, more records of the lost tribes of Israel will come in, and they too will be joined to what we have.

    The only down side for those who reject the message of Mormonism, good people I respect like James Dobson, is what “might have been; and yet, I know that one day, they will be prepared to receive the “more” that God has prepared to bring all of his children to the “one God, the Father, of whom are all things…and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things…” (1 Cor. 8:6)and One Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph. 4:6) of the Bible, I also realize that God’s timing is not my timing and these good men are needed exactly where they are serving now. Yet I cannot read Acts and of the New Testament church found in the books after Christ’s resurrection and not recognize the restored church after being raised in the Protestant world. It is a living and has the authority of the Priesthood and the gifts and powers of the spirit mentioned in the Bible. Are these proof enough for me? You bet.

    Why the BOM over other books? Becasue of the miraculous way and speed by which it came forth and was written, because of its contents and prophecies that are already in progress, and their harmony with both Old and New Testaments, because of the way it has changed my and my church friends lives, because of the wisdom and organization of the church that came later, and because of people like you who cannot leave it alone. By deduction, I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Again, “by their fruits ye shall know them.” I know of those fruits personally; you can only deny them, not having experienced, witnessed or understood them. The BOM cannot be explained away by any manner of attempts by “anti’s” and that is why people continue to be converted by it and why you will always have a job to do! (Again, I hope you’re being paid well.)

    Let’s call it quits?

    Amanda

  207. Brad said

    Amanda (and moderator):

    I can assume that this means you are NOT willing to appear on the show and defend your faith? Is that the case? I am ready to defend mine, and have done so already, as 1 Peter 3:15 states.

    Are you willing?

  208. moderator said

    Amanda – If you are willing to be live on the air with Stu to debate this just let us know by posting a comment and I will post some instructions as to how to get in touch. Please rest assured, all identities will be protected and no personal information or contact info will be shared over the air or on this blog. We would never do that and plus it’s illegal. We would like to keep this debate, if it happens, friendly. This will NOT be a shouting match and Stu is aware. Just let us know by posting.

  209. Anonymous said

    “This will NOT be a shouting match …”

    That’d be a refreshing change of pace.

  210. Brad said

    “Every time I think I’m through, you throw out things that I cannot let stand. The uninitiated (by “anti”-toxins) may believe you although I doubt any of them would be found on this blog.” (Amanda)

    We’re all “antis”, is that it? No, we just don’t believe in Mormonism, and can clearly see through all the smoke, mirrors and circular logic that it is based upon. If the unitiated, as you put it, were to come on here, what would they think? They would see that Christians can poke numerous large holes squarely in Mormonism, b/c it just doesn’t line up squarely with the Bible. They will find Christians who are willing and able to talk to them and show them that Mormonism holds only a bleak future for them, but Christianity holds life. Are they allowed to come to blogs such as this? Are they supposed to discuss their faith with non-Mormons who know how to see through it?

    “Again, your doctrinal exposition on salvation, baptism, and the “sticks” show exactly why a Restoration was needed.” (Amanda)

    Sure, the LDS church was needed b/c everyone was misled prior to that, right? The only “Restoration” that was needed was Christ’s death on the cross for our sins, which allows us to experience salvation through faith (ALONE) in Him.

    “You cannot say salvation is free in any way other than as the Apostles intended; it is free to all those willing to receive and obey (yes, you have to read other scriptures to know that, and as you proved, the nail in the board analogy is still true. In my pre-”Mormon” days, I would have been confused too.) No one is excluded from “receiving” the gospel, and that is the word in Mormoni 10′s challenge that you overlooked. “Receiving” involves your heart which will influence you to action, not just lip service.” (Amanda)

    Amanda, in my opinion, whether salvation is by faith PLUS something else, or just faith ALONE, is probably the most important question in all of Christian theology. In fact, this was the major cause of the Reformation – the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. It is probably the defining difference between Biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults (including Mormonism, JW’s, etc…). It really comes down to this: Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus AND do certain things? The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. For example, compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). However, in reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all! The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, as I’ve mentioned before) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about (I don’t find it coincidental that I just co-taught a Bible study on James, and am currently teaching through it in Sunday School!). James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18); he is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ WILL produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith PLUS works, but rather that a person who is TRULY justified by faith will HAVE good works in his life. If a person CLAIMS to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26). Think of works as evidence to others that we are saved; God doesn’t require such evidence, as He knows our thoughts and our soul’s condition, He knows whether we have come to Him by faith or not. Others, however, don’t have this ability, thus works show EVIDENCE of our saving faith – they don’t PRODUCE it. Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9, it really doesn’t get much clearer than that, does it?), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works. This IN NO WAY means that our works are required in order to save us. Our faith ALONE saves us.

    “…because Jesus could have come, died and been resurrected without setting the example we are to follow, complete with teachings, if he hadn’t intended us to actually live by that example on our way to exaltation.” (Amanda)

    I’m not debating that we should our lives as we are told to in the Bible. Not for a second. We should always be striving to do that. And I agree that Christ set the example for us, and wants us to live in like fashion. What I am debating is that it is necessary for our salvation to do so. To say that means we are constantly working towards our salvation, rather than having received it and living it out – those are 2 completely different concepts, and only the latter is found in the Bible, not the former.

    “In fact, a chunck of our doctrinal differences on these topics occurs because what you refer to as “salvation,” we refer to as “conversion.” It is true that when you are converted, you are “saved” as long as you remain on God’s side of the line in honestly trying to follow his words and using the gift of repentance; and although “what God doeth, it lasteth forever,” what man doeth, doesn’t. WE make a covenant with God, and if we do not uphold our end, we have broken the covenant, and He is not bound by it. Admittedly, most Christians are not necessarily a covenant people since baptism may not be a covenant to you from what you said.” (Amanda)

    You’re right, many of our doctrinal differences occur b/c what we refer to based on the Bible, you refer to something else, based on the BOM. That is the key difference. What you’re essentially saying is that you have to work your whole life to ensure your salvation. God didn’t make it that hard – why do the Mormons? Christians will naturally do good works if they are truly saved, as a result of being truly saved. But we don’t do them out of fear that we need to keep ensuring our salvation, or b/c of some requirement that we must do them, but b/c we love God. The phrase “as long as” you stated above means a world of difference. According to the Bible, you’re either saved, or you’re not. There’s no working towards it, no “as long as”, it’s either yes or no. Mormons preach a different gospel. According to the LDS church, “to make His Atonement fully effective in your life, you must:

    Exercise faith in Him.
    Repent.
    Be baptized.
    Receive the Holy Ghost
    Choose to follow His teachings for the rest of your life.”

    I’ll grant the faith and repentance are necessary. Baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost and following His teachings come AFTER salvation, they are not required to make the “Atonement fully effective.” Not according to the Bible, but evidently according to the BOM, which is just another evidence that the BOM doesn’t line up squarely with the Bible!

    “We are here PARTLY to be tested and proven, and like David of old, man is capable of going off the beaten path–the straight and narrow path which “LEADS” to salvation. (It is not one of those flat airway escalators that transports you without your having to move your feet.) Although repentance can occur at any point, David’s eternal reward will not be as glorious as one who never was distracted enough to be involved with murdering his fellowman.” (Amanda)

    According to the LDS church, this is why we’re here: “Before you began your life on Earth, you lived with your Heavenly Father as one of His spirit children. Although it was a joyful existence, God knew that you could not continue to progress unless you left Him for a time. He allowed you to come to Earth, where you would gain a physical body and would have experiences that would help you to learn and grow, fulfilling the purpose of the plan of salvation: to help you become more like your Heavenly Father. Adam and Eve were the first of God’s children to come to Earth. They were created in God’s image, with bodies of flesh and bones. God placed them in the Garden of Eden. Here they did not remember their former existence though they were still able to enjoy God’s presence and could have lived forever. As Heavenly Father has blessed all of His children with the freedom to choose, Adam and Eve were given agency to make their own choices on the earth. He commanded them not to eat the forbidden fruit, or the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Obeying this commandment meant they could remain in the garden, but they could not progress by experiencing opposition in mortality. They could not know joy because they could not experience sorrow and pain. Thus, as a part of the plan Satan was allowed to tempt Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit and they chose to do so. As a consequence, they were separated from God’s presence physically and spiritually—an event referred to as the Fall. Adam and Eve then became mortal—subject to sin and death—and were unable to return to Heavenly Father without His help. They could now experience disease and all types of suffering. They had moral agency, or the ability to choose between good and evil, which made it possible for them to learn and progress.”

    Basically, the fall of Adam was a blessing from God, and not a curse, b/c it allowed us to then learn to “progress” so in the future “we can become more like God.” Hogwash – this is found nowhere in the Bible, only in Mormon teachings (of course, humans being pre-existent with God isn’t found in the Bible either, but that’s so far-fetched we won’t address it). The trials we face allow us to increase our faith (see James 1).

    “Thus: the kingdoms of glory. If I didn’t know Joseph Smith was a prophet already, and then if I read Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants, I would know at that point because the Spirit witnesses to the mind and heart of its truthfulness to the sincere seeker of truth. What did the Jesus mean when he said, “there are many mansions” in Heaven? What was Paul talking about when he mentioned “the glory of the celestial” (1 Cor.15:40), and in 2 Cor. 12:2-4, being “caught up to the third heaven?” Again, section 76 leaves no doubt about how God handles our salvation, and my conclusion is that the BOM supports, verifies, and clarifies the Bible. Again, I don’t really expect anyone to take my word for it. God has promised a witness to this church, and I’m not aware of any other church that can say that.” (Amanda)

    Ah yes, different levels of heaven. I knew you’d get there sometime. Let’s look at 1 Cor. 15:40 in context, by looking at vs. 35-41 “But someone may ask, ‘How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?’ How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.” This has nothing to do with the “celestial level of heaven” that Mormons believe in. This is simply comparing the type of resurrected body we will receive, by using various examples, to show it will be different than our earthly body. To read anything else is to read INTO the passage something that isn’t there.

    As to 2 Cor. 12:2-4, this again is not a reference to a 3rd PART of heaven, but says what it means “the third heaven.” Again, look at this in context, as Paul would have been describing it to those of his day. In those times, 3 heavens were commonly thought of: blue sky (1st), stars/space (2nd) and the dwelling place of God (3rd). This is how the people in Paul’s day, and even Paul, would have understood it. This is also the common understanding of it today among Biblical scholars (except of course for Mormons). This IN NO WAY implies 3 levels of heaven, that thinking didn’t even come into existence until Joseph Smith dreamed it up! So it certainly wouldn’t have been present in Paul’s day. Another failed proof text for Mormonism.

    So, you now fall back to Joseph Smith, D&C and “the Holy Ghost told me so” as your support, none of which can be supported by the Bible (lest you say that I mean the Holy Spirit doesn’t witness to us, I do, but He doesn’t witness to us about things which aren’t fully backed up by Scripture, such as the 3rd LEVEL of heaven which you claim, thus it is a false witness).

    “Meanwhile, all of us may be converted to Christ as Cornelius was. Yes, he was converted, but he was also baptized by an authorized minister of God (Acts 10:47,48) after being commanded to in the name of the Lord.” (Amanda)

    I’m not disputing that he was baptized, I’m saying that he was baptized AFTER being saved, as the text shows.

    “If he hadn’t been, the Spirit would have eventually withdrawn and he wouldn’t have joined the Lord’s church. Amazingly, the Holy Ghost turns out to be Peter’s “primary” proof that Cornelius had been converted too, as it is today. I would imagine Peter felt those “feelings” too, or a “burning of the bosom,” as well hearing the speaking with tongues (v.44,45).” (Amanda)

    It was evident to Peter that the Holy Spirit had come upon Cornelius; not by a “feeling” you “imagine” (that’s the truth) he had, but EVIDENCED by the speaking in tongues which happened there. Nowhere in this passage does it say Peter “felt” the Holy Spirit tell him that Cornelius had received the Holy Spirit, it says that Peter could see it had happened through evidence.

    “If Cornelius had been killed before he had been baptized, would he have been saved? Most certainly. (As you know, we believe in baptism for the dead.)” (Amanda)

    The question I originally asked of you was if a person dies having accepted Christ, but without being baptized, would they go to heaven or hell; I didn’t ask if they would be saved or not. The Bible indicates that they are ALREADY saved, that baptism is just obedience after salvation. YOU say that Cornelius, in a similar situation, would have BEEN saved (implying in the future), b/c of baptism for the dead, which again is solely a Mormon thought and didn’t even exist at that time, nor is it found anywhere in Scripture. Look at Hebrews 9:27 “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment…” Once you’re dead, you’re dead, there’s nothing else that can be done for you.

    “If he had lost the spirit through being inactive, would he? Yes, but in a lesser kingdom of glory–the terrestial kingdom. (1 Cor. 15:41)” (Amanda)

    Already discussed and shown to be incorrect according to the context. You can’t read INTO the Bible what’s not there, no matter how bad Joseph Smith wanted it to be.

    “Again, none of what I say matters unless an actual restoration took place. You won’t even find this information in the Book of Mormon. (I would love for you to read it, but you’ve invested so much of yourself in supporting the “anti” cause that I’m sure pride wouldn’t let you at this point. Too much to lose–and not your salvation, so don’t go there!)”

    Pretty self-explanatory – no restoration took place, and even you say the info isn’t in the BOM. Irregardless, NONE of it matches up with the Bible, so it is irrelevant anyway.

    “…Excuse me if I think that when one reads all the biblical scriptures, and sees also that the Apostles went to the trouble to go ‘where there was much water’ to do their baptizing, there is little confusion in my mind over what being born of the water and the spirit means in the Bible. The waters of birth? Yes, but only in the sense of a symbolic spiritual birth. Romans 6:1-6, Col. 2:12….(Again, one must apply his God-given power to reason and make appropriate deductions. Only then does the witness of the Spirit accompany one’s conclusion. You should have heard the discussion I had with my missionaries about how baptism wasn’t necessary in my mind. It wasn’t until a good brother was brought “on exchange” one night with one of the missionaries, and he opened my mind with words of the Latter-day prophets; and later, I read this story of Paul under the influence of the Spirit, and I doubted no more that baptism was essential. At least the church is consistent. If one must be baptized, the ordinance must be performed for every mortal ever born.)”

    So it took one of the LDS heavyweights to convince you, and even then, he had to use the words of the prophets, b/c Scripture wasn’t enough. Again, I’m not saying we shouldn’t be baptized, just that it’s not necessary for salvation, as already shown prior.

    “Ezekiel calls this stick, “the stick of Ephraim” and “the stick of Joseph in the hand of Ephraim.”
    Similarly, he calls the Bible “the stick of Judah.” The promise was that these two records would become on stick in the Lord’s hand in the day of the gathering of Israel. (Exek. 37:15-28)” (Amanda)

    Wrong. Ezekiel calls the STICKS exactly what the Lord said to call them. He didn’t call THE BIBLE anything, as you say above, b/c the Bible isn’t being referenced here – sticks are. And the promise was NOT that “these two RECORDS would become one stick in the Lord’s hand in the day of the gathering of Israel”, b/c that’s not what the passage says. It says that God “will take the ISRAELITES out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather THEM from all around and bring THEM back into THEIR own land. I will make THEM one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of THEM and THEY will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.” Of course, the emphasis is mine, but it shows that what is being talked about is not the Bible and BOM, but the Israelites. It is plain as day in v. 21, so I’m not sure why this is hard to miss.

    “In those days, it is well known that records were kept on parchment rolled upon sticks. There have also been found wooden sections with pages of wax upon which records were kept. (Actually, the wax had long been gone, but they are referenced in ancient writings. These were also referred to as sticks. The prophecies of Jeremiah were written and rolled round a stick and were called a book; regardless, these were the records of the tribe of Joseph and the tribe of Judah. Joseph was given great prophecies by his father on his deathbed. Where is the record of their fulfillment? The Book of Mormon.” (Amanda)

    Again, this is incorrect. First of all, you have to examine the Hebrew word used in Ezekiel for “stick.” The word used, “aits”, speaks of a literal piece of wood, not books or scrolls, as Mormons insist. Look at 1 Kings 17:10-12 “So he [Elijah] went to Zarephath. When he came to the town gate, a widow was there gathering sticks. He called to her and asked, ‘Would you bring me a little water in a jar so I may have a drink?’ As she was going to get it, he called, ‘And bring me, please, a piece of bread.’ ‘As surely as the LORD your God lives,’ she replied, ‘I don’t have any bread—only a handful of flour in a jar and a little oil in a jug. I am gathering a few sticks to take home and make a meal for myself and my son, that we may eat it—and die.’” Was the widow gathering books? Or sticks? If your answer is sticks, then there is no consistency in claiming the sticks of Ezekiel 37 are actually books since both passages use the same word. You can also look at 2 Kings 6:1-7. The Bible tells how, during the act of cutting down a tree, the axe head fell off its handle and landed in the water. Distressed because the axe was borrowed, the man who was using the axe sought the aid of Elisha the prophet. Pointing out where the axe head landed, Elisha proceeds to “cut down a stick” and cast it into the water. Amazingly the iron axe head floats to the top. Did Elisha throw a stick into the river, or a book? Again, if Mormons wish to insist that Ezekiel 37 speaks of books, instead of sticks, and want to be consistent at the same time, they must also conclude that Elisha cut a book off the tree, since the word “stick” in verse 6 is the EXACT SAME Hebrew word that is in Ezekiel 37. Of course, we know that the widow was not gathering books, any more than Elisha cut down a book from a tree. Neither was Ezekiel holding books (or scrolls) in his hand, as you imply. That passage simply DOES NOT have anything to say about the Book of Mormon. By using two literal sticks, Ezekiel was illustratively predicting the coming together of two nations, Judah and Israel, which had been separated, nothing more. Again, this is CLEARLY explained in vs. 21-22.

    “You should now see why Mormons are wasting their time–either on the air time of an anti-Mormon show or on an anti-Mormon station or emailing critics who demand an answer to every minute, erroneous accusation since our doctrine cannot, should not be reduced to a bumper sticker.” (Amanda)

    Really? But doesn’t 1 Peter 3:15 tell us to ALWAYS be ready to give an answer to EVERYONE who asks you? Are you then not ready to give your answers in public?

    “Why the BOM over other books? Becasue of the miraculous way and speed by which it came forth and was written, because of its contents and prophecies that are already in progress, and their harmony with both Old and New Testaments, because of the way it has changed my and my church friends lives, because of the wisdom and organization of the church that came later, and because of people like you who cannot leave it alone.” (Amanda)

    Amanda, I too could write a book loosely based on the Bible, have a few of my friends who are “in on it” witness it for me, and then all of us claim that we received visions and revelations from God (which can’t be proven or more importantly disproven by anyone, since they’re not tangible). I could also get the book printed quickly, say that I have witness from the Holy Ghost that what is in the book is true, and then start my own church, which I can say isn’t against the Bible, but just adds further revelation to the Bible. I could use circular logic to convince people that what the book says is true, and then have them tell others as well, all the time claiming that I’m the new and improved, revealed correct way of Christianity. It wouldn’t be that hard, b/c I already have the Bible to base the books off of, right? Based on that, if I said I had that, would you believe it? B/c that’s exactly what Joseph Smith did, and you believe him. There’s really no difference at all.

    Amanda, I continue to pray for you, and all Mormons who have been so dangerously misled. I still pray that God removes the veil from your eyes, and allows you to see the simple truth, that faith alone in Jesus Christ of the Bible is all you need, and nothing else.

  211. Brad said

    Amanda (and moderator)

    Let me say that if the debate happens, I certainly have no intentions of being mean or otherwise unfriendly. I would only pray and hope that I can present ideas and concepts from Scripture that would seek to plant seeds in the minds of those who doubt.

    If it doesn’t happen, that’s OK, but I am willing.

    Thanks.

  212. Amanda said

    Moderator: See note at bottom

    You know, Brad, I read part of what you said, but I actually have a life apart from email, and there isn’t enough time in the day to address all of your prejudices and presuppositions and hole-poking–even if I were getting paid for it! This one wasn’t worth my time to read. (Bad spirit about it which grows between us each email.) This exchange actually lost its appeal long ago when I realized we wouldn’t be having a genuine conversation or exchange of information, but a debate devoid of mutual respect or any objectivity–even pretended objectivity.

    I totally separate “anti-Mormons” from Christians because you anti’s who think you are doing the Lord’s work are in no way his representatives or Christians with the attributes promoted in the Bible by Jesus and His Apostles. (If you can say neither am I, I must apologize for that and do better the next time I encounter someone who hates my religion.)AT least I love your religion because it contains so much of mine–like all of the Bible! And my Savior!

    You bear false witness continually about 12 million people who have a faith you only think you know because of an elevated level of pride. (A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and we can go out into the world, half-cocked, doing unwarranted damage.)You judge my and other members’ salvation–which even Jesus said he didn’t come to do while he was here. (Or perhaps He went on vacation and appointed you guardian over his gospel? Obviously, I have judged it with the righteous judgment that Jesus has asked us to use, and only I stand in my shoes. You do not and could not.

    Obviously, I am ready to give answers to anyone who sincerely asks me questions about my faith, (thus the days I have wasted trying to converse with you over email), but I ask you: What question did you ever ask me that you wanted an answer to? What question did you ask that you didn’t already insist you knew the answer to? Did you care about me as a person or what my experince with God was before and is AFTER my born again experience? Or after my salvation according to your understanding? Not when you found that I wouldn’t and couldn’t deny my knowledge that my relationship with God is real and that He led me to the LDS Church Himself and that I do believe in the Bible because that possibility is not written in your playbook.That is also the stake in the heart of your work of “converting” real Mormons. You walk on a one way street, my man.

    My time is reserved for the honest in heart–not people who stack the decks on or off the air and insure that they have utter control over the situation–both before and after the interview. I appeared once on a radio talkshow in Raleigh, and it was a wonderful experience. Why? Because the lady who hosted it really wanted to know about the Mormons–not to judge them publicly or try to humiliate them with scripture. She actually wanted her listeners to understand them better. (There is something to be said for mutual understanding–which is always my intent.)

    I’m no fool, and even if I were, the Spirit would tell me when to appear and not to appear just as it has been telling me that you and I are wasting our time. You need to find and concentrate on the usual people that keep you in business–those weak “Mormons” who never knew their own faith or didn’t do the work of reading the scriptures, praying, and obeying the commandments–plus learning from the Holy Ghost whom you have tried to render null and void. You’re welcome to them.

    If you actually had knowledge of the Holy Ghost and its witness–which will endure long after purely intellectual and archaelogical evidences are gone–and said the things you’ve said, you would be guilty of blashpemy against the Holy Ghost, but our loving God will wink at your void of knowledge about Him and this portion of his latter-day work at this time in your life, I believe. (Your heart is more open to His word in other important issues, right? And you’re a hard worker. I’m giving you the benefit of any doubt here.) Your heart has revealed itself toward the Mormons, however, and it’s nothing I need or want to spend time with–either on or off the air.

    Brad jabs (pridefully):”So it took one of the LDS heavyweights to convince you, and even then, he had to use the words of the prophets, b/c Scripture wasn’t enough.”

    (Have you ever heard the saying, “Seek to understand before you seek to be understood”? No, I’ll bet not.)

    Not that it deserves a response, but the missionaries brought with them a very humble Spirit and a very humble gospel doctrine teacher (Our and your Sunday School classes deserve one of those, by the way.)He was a man in the likeness of Jesus whom he tries to follow, and I could feel the Spirit with him as a result. (Only the Spirit can change our nature, and as we apply God’s word in our lives, we can qualify as humble followers of Christ, and the Holy Ghost will be with us in greater portion.) Since you don’t belive that Christians must obey the Savior, and that’s it’s just a nice thing to do to show appreciation, I suppose you haven’t witnessed that before with other people’s lives if not yourself? I have friends of 20 to 30 years who have grown so much in the gosepl. Their lives are evidence to me as well as my own.) Anyway, this gentleman’s quotes from the latter-day prophets made such sense to me. They pointed me to the scriptures, and it was the Bible that was my primary source of conversion outside of the Holy Ghost. Again, if there had been unresolved conflict, I would have shown them the door. This is another truth you guys can’t afford to acknowledge or admit, but God is speaking to thousands each year through the Bible in a way you would never wish it to.

    Brad again: “If the unitiated, as you put it, were to come on here, what would they think?… They will find Christians who are willing and able to talk to them and show them that Mormonism holds only a bleak future for them, but Christianity holds life.”

    You see, my future friend, this is where you’re hopelessly wrong. Mormonism holds a joyful existence–a life and spirit-giving existence, something you are not in a position to know of, and this, again, is why you are a bearer of false witness. You can–and do– poke holes all day long, but they are only holes to you– not to me and my brothers and sisters in the gospel. Our faith is in tact. We’ve all had the continuing witness of the Spirit and the joy and peace that brings to us which will endure forever. This is the another primary stake in the heart of anti-Mormonism and why many “Mormons” never bother to address opposition in kind. Perhaps it is only my pride that causes me to write back, but I would like to think it is also because I want others who may read this to have a more balanced perspective.

    I went down just now to read your part about Paul and James, and I agree that they NEVER disagreed on works and faith, as any Mormon could tell you. Paul knew well that being faithful involves more than lip service. I too can say I am saved by “faith alone” because without Jesus and his atonement, all is in vain. I also know that I can disqualify myself from the presence of the Spirit, my witness of my salvation and exaltation. How? By rebelliously and stupidly choosing not to obey God’s commandments. I obey not out of fear as you would love to believe, but out of love and gratitude to my Savior for His atonement and forgiveness of my personal sins and for my salvation which I do not question because I have chosen to follow Him all of my life. He will tell me the things I must do as long as I am in touch with both His word AND His Spirit. How do we get the Spirit? “By the prayer of faith,” according to God’s word to Joseph Smith, and guess what? It works! Those who don’t follow the commandments or the Spirit will end up where all who chose to follow their own desires and the desires of the world do–not in the presence of God and His Son eternally.

    I follow also because of what Jesus has said about obedience that tells me it is required for salvation. Like the fact that we’ll be judged by our works. (Carpet–sweeping time? 2 Tim. 4:14, Titus 1:16, James 2:24, Rev. 2:23) I believe I’ve already given you other scripture verses to that effect–”…those who say unto me, Lord, Lord..”.. The one quote from the Bible on salvation for the dead (which you didn’t mention) is in that pile under the carpet too, I imagine. I would never be–or expect anyone else to be–converted by that quote, but it’s another tiny, mostly ignored, biblical evidence to me that Mormonism was nothing new to the Apostles. It was just part of the fulness of Jesus’ revelations.

    To the Moderator:

    I really appreciate you and what you do. I love the show as a rule. I began writing on the blog thinking I would love to appear (with a friend or two –comfort for “a stranger in a strange land,”) but after conversing with Brad, and “feeling” of his heart, his prejudice, and his intent, I doubt I’d would walk across the street to talk with him–much less appear on air. (Jesus said to “prove the spirits,” right? Done that.)

    Also, because your station is primarily anti-Mormon and you have control of what is said both before and after the show (for days if you wanted to), I can’t in good faith be a part of that. You couldn’t very well appear to be in support of “Mormonism” as your listeners understand it in any way– I understand that. The restored gospel isn’t to be mocked. The Church isn’t to be mocked. If there were a presentation or panel in a less combative environment–a church or public venue, I would participate and bring a few friends to make sure there is balance, and that I don’t leave anything out, but as is, I must decline your generous invitation.

    Thanks, anyway!

  213. Anonymous said

    amanda,its your friend brett.i hope i have not come off anti anything.ive invited you to share your personal views with me.i have love for all people.i do feel like you have been miss lead thats all.at the same time ive asked you to corect me if i was wrong about anything ive said.i would really enjoy seeing you and brad on the show.this whole topic is very interesting to me.i just dont have the time to keep up with the blog as much as l would like do to my famly and very demanding job.however i do my best.please amanda go on the show.id love to here your view.i know brads heart is in thr right place even if you feel if he has been a little harsh.if you refuse to go on with brad then go on with me.however i refuse to debate only discuse it lovingly as the bible teachs.but brad and you seem to be the best choices.PLEASE RECONSEDER AMANDA. with the love of christ thats in me brett.

  214. Brad said

    Amanda,

    I’m OK with the fact that you accused me of various things in your response, among them being blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I understand that you and I are approaching this from 2 different points of view, so I can see where you would think that.

    What you take as pride or arrogance in my faith is confidence. I am confident in what I believe, confident that it is right, and more importantly to the discussion we’ve been having, confident that you and all other Mormons have been grossly misled.

    You may think that I have wanted these discussions to be a battle, a way for me to elevate myself. If that were the case, I’d have bowed out long ago. If I didn’t care about you and your soul, I’d never have engaged in conversation. It’s because I do that I have continued to talk.

    I know what I believe is true. You think that what you believe is true. Since we believe different things, and as there is only one way to salvation (through Jesus Christ), only one of us can be right. You rely on a false witness from what you think is the Holy Ghost. I rely on God’s Word, and God’s Word alone.

    I’m OK with not being on Stu’s show. Although I would have enjoyed it, it is the live debate we could have had that was appealing to me, to get the chance to discuss this with you personally, not the airtime. I understand you don’t want to be on what you perceive as an “anti” show. If I were invited to defend my beliefs and debate on Mormon radio, I would still take it up, as I would hope and pray that something I might say would spark some interest in someone listening, and hopefully lead them to the truth.

    Amanda, I do sincerely pray for you, and I do mean it when I say that I pray that the veil is removed from your eyes, and you can see Christianity for all its simplicity – salvation as a free gift from God, for those who put their faith in him. No special ceremonies, no tracking of genealogies, no worrying about “doing enough”, just knowing that your faith is in Christ is enough. That’s what I pray for you.

    Moderator/Stu, thank you for the opportunity and the offer, I appreciate it, and I appreciate you and your show! Less commercials and more discussion would be great – but I understand you have to pay the bills!!

    To all those who may have been following our discussion, whether Christian or Mormon or somewhere in between, I hope and pray that you can see the truth through what has been said. I would hope and pray that if you are seeking out truth in your life – do more than just rely on your feelings, as they can betray you. Search the Bible, read it and it alone, and meditate on what it says. If you need evidence, look at all the evidence that is available for Christianity – it abounds!

    If anyone thinks me rude or offensive, I apologize for coming off that way. I love God, and I take it personally when other religions imply they’re closely related, b/c so many who are new or weak in the faith can be so easily misled – I’ve seen it happen before. If anyone has any questions they would want to direct to me personally, feel free. I would be more than happy to answer, if I know it, or at least help find out if I don’t.

    May God bless you all, and may you find comfort and truth in His Word, the Bible, and His Word alone!

  215. Amanda said

    Brad said: “If I were invited to defend my beliefs and debate on Mormon radio, I would still take it up, as I would hope and pray that something I might say would spark some interest in someone listening, and hopefully lead them to the truth.”

    You may be aware that Mormons (take me out of the picture because I tend to shoot back) are the most gracious, humble, noncombative people one can find on the planet. I’ve done my time with Baptists, and they are far too quick to say, “You’re going to hell!” This is not the way to spread our Savior’s gospel, and truly, nothing–and I mean nothing– could be accomplished with time constraints, interruptions, etc.

    I do want to correct something else you said:

    “Since we believe different things, and as there is only one way to salvation (through Jesus Christ), only one of us can be right.”

    There is only one way to salvation; fortunately, we both believe in Him. The fact that I believe He is literally God’s Son and an individual with a glorified body, one third of a Godhead, who sits in a position of honor in Heaven beside His Father–all of which can be supported in the Bible, does not change His message, His power, His Attributes, His influence, or His teachings on how to accept him and how to have an abundant life.
    For you to deny my relationship with Him as I know Him would be sort of like my telling you all about your father or mother in terms you know are not accurate and whether or not you really even know them. Personal revelation and experience with God–involving knowledge, experiences that yield ample proof, and yes, “warm fuzzies”–How you know your parents love you? It would be inappropriate and yes, rude.

    I DID NOT SAY YOU HAD BLASHPEMED AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST. MY MESSAGE WAS THAT IF YOU HAD HAD THE EXPERIENCES WITH THE HOLY GHOST THAT I HAVE HAD, AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE MANIFESTATIONS OF THE HOLY GHOST THE WAY YOU DID, IT WOULD BE BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE THIRD MEMEBER OF THE GODHEAD.

    “What you take as pride or arrogance in my faith is confidence.” (Brad)

    Your confidence is misguided because “contention is of the devil.” It really has no place in the gospel of Jesus Christ (Proverbs 3:10 “Only by pride cometh contention,” see Prov.23:29-30 for another source; Titus 3:9, 1 Cor. 1:11 and 11:16). “Ernestly contending for the faith” (Jude 1:3) is a different thing entirely–it’s teaching persistently and with the Spirit, in a way where the Spirit can be present–it flees in the midst of contention. That is why in a debate like you find on Hannity and Colmes or sometimes even truth talk live where there is interruption, little can be accomplished in between commercials. We are not left with a good feeling about what we’ve seen and heard.

    You are entitled to your opinions, Brad, and especially to your faith–as am I. I have given you many quotes from the Bible to show you that our beliefs are not unbiblical; yet you insisted on cannonizing for us every word that may or may not have been spoken by leaders in the early days of the church–even if some of it was speculation and was never porported as revelation from God and cannot be found in our scripture nor found preached from a pulpit in church.

    The sad thing is, I’ve never met an “anti-Mormon” who was humble enough or enough of a “man” to say, “You do take at face value the scriptures you have given me from the Bible, and so in the end, Mormons do believe in the Bible–even if I disagree with you on interpretation.” Not once have you affirmed any scripture I’ve given you as being biblical and possibly meaning exactly what it says at face value. You instead detract from its message with the more vague, less specific scriptures (the ones responsible for the myriad of Protestant interpretations) that are more open to misinterpretation until you put it with the ones I gave you.

    Still, is that any reason to ban someone from salvation and to declare that yours is the only way to interpret scripture? If that determines one’s Christianity, you’d better start to work on every other Protestant church!

    “confident that you and all other Mormons have been grossly misled.”

    At some point, you have to allow that we are adults; that we may have put far more taith, prayer, study and effort into finding out if this work were true than you ever would have been willing to; and that adults make and are accountable for their own decisions. I was raised in a Protestant church, so I made an thoroughly informed decision; many others from all religions–for the Book of Mormon is God’s agent of gathering from all nations, just as is the Bible–may have had nothing more than the Book of Mormon and the witness of Holy Ghost to make their decision by. Their testimonies are just as strong as mine, and they now accept the Bible too.

    Brett, I would love to meet you and wouldn’t mind talking with you and/or Brad in more optimum circumstances. I will propose something to the moderator which may not be feasible to them, but to me, it would be the only fair way to handle this.

    I do not doubt the sincerity of your hearts, your love for the Lord and the Bible, nor your dedication to what you think is right, and I would hope you would allow me the same acknowledgement.
    It’s “where I live.”

    Amanda

  216. Amanda said

    Moderator (Stu?)

    Yesterday I was admittedly ticked off by Brad’s running on a one way street, not acknowledging, I felt, the main significance of anything I was saying or the scriptures I was giving him.

    Since your station is anti-Mormon, and your listeners will be following suit, responding to what they have heard about the Church through your station, there is but one way I would feel that anything good could occur by coming on your show:

    Since on a tolerance and acceptability scale of 1–100, “the Mormons” would be starting out at negative 100, there needs to be something to “level the playing field.” That something would need to be a show with exclusively Mormons. I could rally about 4 or 5 people, including the Stake President of the Winston Salem wards, a retired English professor from Chapel Hill and his wife, and a dear friend of mine to form a panel, give some information about Mormonism, and then take calls from your audience. You would be increasing understanding between our faiths by this single act. We could stop there, or…

    If this went well, two of us might consider coming on with two of the other contributors to the blog.(Brett and Brad?) I would even then not come on to “scripture bash” although I confess I don’t see how it could turn into anything else. I am not an official spokesperson for the Church, and so I would want someone of Priesthood authority with me.

  217. Amanda said

    Final statement to all readers:

    Brad said,
    “Amanda, I too could write a book loosely based on the Bible, have a few of my friends who are “in on it” witness it for me, and then all of us claim that we received visions and revelations from God.”

    Brad, I challenge you to write–not a book–but just one verse of “scripture” that would pass as scripture. Joseph Smith issued the same challenge to his detractors, and some of them tried–unsuccessfullly. You may do better, so have at it! If you write a book, make it a book with no contradictions in it–to the Bible or within itself– and you’re only allowed grammatical errors. (A very few missprinted words, penciled in by Joseph on the printed copy, were corrected later to bring them into conformity with the original hand script. Make it a book that can bring others unto Christ and to the Bible. Make it one that will be explained away in many failed attempts (“Joseph made it up–he was very bright and imaginative”; “no, he was too ignorant, unlearned, and could barely write a coherent sentance, so it had to be Sidney Rigdon; it was the Solomon Spaulding Theory; no, no, it was the “View of the Hebrews”!) Truly, if it were the fraud you claim it to be, that makes the 200,000 plus converts per year even more extraordinary!

    To anyone who reads this: one cannot judge “Mormonism” by this email exchange between Brad and I because having now read Brad’s last letter, it would take me all day to respond to each little point–some of them very good ones that should be addressed, some of them points that should have been understood from prior emails, and sometimes, we even agreed on a point if one of us had changed the semantics or just acknowledge it to begin with. (I would love to tell you how Joseph received the vision in Section 76 about the degrees of glory. He marveled that his brother Alvin was there in the celestial kingdom when he hadn’t been baptized. God himself revealed to him that He judges the hearts of those who would have received Him and His truth had he lived longer.)It’s all in our desires and the intents of our hearts, but when the time comes that we receive our eternal destiny, we will all have the same knowledge of God. Every knee shall bow and tongue confess.

    My main point in writing today is that no matter how long one discusses Bible verses, one still has an extremely fuzzy picture of why Mormonism didn’t die with Joseph Smith and why it is what it is today. Until an individual reads the entire Book of Mormon–from the witness of the 3 individuals who saw the angel Moroni with the golden plates and then the 8 witnesses who saw just the plates and “hefted” them, ’til you read the introductory page from God himself, copied by an ancient prophet, you truly cannot judge the work. And if, as Brad says, the 3 witnesses and the 8 additional witnesses were “in on it,” not one of them ever withdrew their testimonies, even though all three of the main witnesses left the church during the duress of the early years and the persecution. One rejoined years later, and each one of the three bore a very strong deathbed testimony of the truthfulness of what they had witnessed. It would have been so easy for them to “tell the truth” and deny it when they were estranged with Joseph, so their stories increase my testimony as do the many eye witnesses of Joseph and the miracles and accomplishments he and others with the priesthood performed in the name of the Lord. The miracles still go on.

    Brad and others would make you feel afraid to read the Book of Mormon (Satan might get you!)–or too disgusted with all the other hit and run accusations, a few of which do have some basis for existence, to take it seriously enough to read. Do not be deceived. I knew that I had nothing to fear in investigating the Church because God does not toy with us when it comes to spiritual truth. I knew I would know if it wasn’t of God. Prepare yourself through prayer and have your Bible beside you. You will feel the same spirit in both.
    Our missionaries, at age 19 or 20, may not have all the right answers to all of your questions, and heaven knows they don’t have all night since their curfew is 9:30 p.m.–I had well over 100 questions myself, which I wrote down for them, but they will do their best to go find out the answers they don’t know. They’re only 19! Still, God has chosen the weak and humble to do a great work, which is also miraculous.) If, on the otherhand, you hear their 6 discussions and do the “work” of reading and praying on your own, I can promise that God rewards the faithful, serious seeker of truth. You will know, one way or the other!

    Brad seems to think one should always be ready to give time to respond to detractors, but how many words did our Savior shed upon King Herod? How many questions did he answer? Even to Pilate, who held his life in his hand, there came a time when “he answered to him “never a word.” “And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.” (Matt. 27:12,14) I would say Jesus took note of His audience and spoke accordingly. Brad’s mind is closed as tight as a pumpkin, and that’s fine; but there is no point arguing over the Bible since nothing I say would be received by him–nothing, and the Lord’s greatest “proof,” the BOM, is left out entirely.

    It’s been stimulating, however, and Brad and I have both come away stronger in our own convictions.

    Peace in Christ,

    Amanda

    If Stu would be willing to allow Mormons to lay out their beliefs themselves on air, giving some groundwork to a real gospel discussion instead of us lining up and allowing the firing squad to, in their mind, “poke holes,” it would be a major step forward in communication and understanding.

  218. Anonymous said

    Amanda:

    your statement suggesting that BOM doesn’t contradict the Bible JUST SIMPLY DOES NOT SQUARE with the TRUTH. IT is just not true. It is not true at all. BOM flatly contradicts the Bible.

    The BOM is a lie. Unfortunately many are consumed by it.

  219. Anonymous said

    Mromonism cannot restore anything, but only distort Biblical truth and teaching.

    All are sinners–even those Mormons who feel that they are reaching a god-like state of perfection. All of their righteousness is still just like filthy rags.

    Only Jesus saves, only Jesus restores. Only the TRUE Jesus, not some imaginary idol of a jesus who is the brother of Lucifer, who was conceived by physical union between a “god” in human form and Mary. This “god” who lives on some unknown planet, this “god” who reveals himself through a supposed ancient Egyptian script that never existed, in a “Book of Abraham” that had nothing to do with Abraham at all….oh please !

    Mormon friends, yes you do want to live righteous lives as we do too. But do not be deceived by the charlotry of the BOM…do nit be deceived by this my friends.

  220. Anonymous said

    send missionaries from your Church to witness to Mormons

    –>Utah Partnership for Christ–>

    http://www.upfc.org

  221. Amanda said

    “All are sinners–even those Mormons who feel that they are reaching a god-like state of perfection.”

    I agree 100%.We are all sinners, but Christ gave us His Atonement and the gift of repentance, and especially the Holy Ghost, to justify us on His own merits and to sanctify us so that we can BECOME more like Him. His command to “Be ye therefore perfect (“complete, finished, fully developed,” in Greek) “even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect,” doesn’t mean we think or claim we can become so in this life–or that we can become like Him on our own merits. But the gospel makes “bad men good and good men better” or our faith is in vain.

    And if those who like to stir up contention weren’t so hung up on sex and yellow journalism, they would know that we make no claim whatsoever that God had sex with Mary. The Bible says in Luke the “Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” (not the Son of the Holy Ghost but the Son of the Father, found often in scripture).

    What does the “power of the Highest (overshadowing) thee” mean? We haven’t the foggiest; but we believe that Jesus was as surely the Son of His Father as we are the sons and daughters of our parents; He received his mother’s mortal ability to die, and His Father’s ability to be raised up again. As Elder McConkie says in “Mormon Doctrine” :

    “Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false.”

    (That’s such a pet topic by the misinformed that it truly needed to be addressed here.)

  222. Anonymous said

    Amanda–do you know your own church’s teachings?

    “The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

    “Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 51).

  223. Anonymous said

    Amanda–please review Mormonism 101

    “The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit.” (Religious Truths Defined, p. 44) as cited in the book, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, by Gerald and Sandra Tanner, Utah Lighthouse Ministry, P.O. Box 1854, Sal Lake City, Utah 84110, Bookstore at 1350 South West Temple. 1982, page 260).

    “They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible.” (Joseph Fielding Smith; Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 19)

  224. Anonymous said

    Amanda–> Mormonism 101

    “Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers,” (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, page 547.)

    “And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events,…Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man.” (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, page 742.)

  225. Anonymous said

    Amanda–> Mormonism 101

    “In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it.” (Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 211)

  226. Anonymous said

    It is quite true that Mormons do indeed assert that God had physical union with Mary.

    If Amanda doesn’t know this, then either she doesn’t know Mormonism or she is deceiving us.

  227. Anonymous said

    It seems to me, just reading the quotes that were posted, that it is the Mormons who are “hung up on sex”….without question, Mormonism teaches that Jesus was conceived by a physical acts between “god” and Mary……..there’s just no denying this.

    Who’s “hung up”? The Mormons are. And they got it wrong.

  228. Amanda said

    Wow! This was an attention getter!

    To all the anonymous writers: Anyone who reads and believes the Bible has to admit that Jesus was “conceived” in Mary (Matt.1:20), and it was done under the power of the Holy Ghost because man cannot endure God’s presence without enabling power of the Holy Ghost.
    We do believe that Jesus is the literal Son of the Father, not of the Holy Ghost, as I said; Jesus had the DNA of His Father as well as His mother. However, no one in my church believes that Mary was not a virgin after the conception took place. The Book of Mormon refers to her as a virgin after the Savior is born, and no leader of the Church has ever said that she wasn’t. We do believe in the virgin birth. Jesus “partook of the flesh” (came as a mortal) and
    his being “begotten” just as we are by our fathers simply means that in a way that is natural for God the Father, this conception and birth would occur in the manner of man–meaning she would go through a natural pregnancy and be delivered as any other woman, and God would be His literal as well as spiritual Father whereas, the rest of us are only His spirit children. this is what the Bible means when it says Jesus was “begotten in the flesh,” and the fact that He is called the Only Begotten. (John 1:14, 3:16, 1 John 5:1))

    We know that God was not created in our image; but we were created in His image, and no one but writers of books like Sandra Turner and her husband who have deceived many people about “Mormonism” want to make our teachings say something that would require that Mary not be a virgin . This has never been taught in the Church and would contradict the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon actually does say that the act was “of the Holy Ghost” –but if it didn’t, the Bible does, and we take the Bible literally. Here you go: This is all the detail the Book of Mormon gives:

    “And I beheld the great city of Jerusalem, …and I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white. ..and an angel dame down and stood before me: and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou? And I said unto him; A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins. And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God?….”I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things. And he said unto me:Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

    And…I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit (in other words,the Holy Ghost); and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms. And the angel said unto me: behold the Lamb of God, ye even the Son of the Eternal Father.

    There is nothing in any of your quotes that changes these facts.

  229. warrior said

    Hi Amanda – That is disappointing that you’re not willing to go on the air and debate this issue. I can’t speak for Brad, but my gut instinct tells me that he would probably be more than happy to participate in a debate on a Mormon Radio Talk Show, hosted by a Mormon and whose listeners are Mormons, if such a radio show exists. There is quite a group praying for you and other Mormons now. It’s in God’s hands.

  230. JesusisGod said

    Should a Christian vote for a Mormon President?

    Mormons DO NOT worship Jesus, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords of the New Testament. Please be a Berean and study this for yourself. They worship a false jesus and are associated with freemasons.

    However, I don’t know of any President of the US that worshiped Jesus Christ of the New Testament in spirit and in truth. Many claim to believe in the biblical Jesus but have no fruit in their lives. Just take a look now!

    Indeed the New World Order is upon us and the most suitable and appointed candidate to carry this through will be elected.

    I say, let us PRAY for our leaders – that God may give them wisdom and lead them to repentance in Jesus’ beautiful and mighty name.

  231. jesusisGod4ever said

    By the way, for all the Mormo’s who are reading this, in the New Testament it states:

    But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! — Galations 1:8.

    This was written thousands of years BEFORE Joseph Smith had the Book of Mormon preached to him by an angel!

    Also,

    Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Lest He reprove you, and you be proved a liar. (Pr 30:5,6)

    I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. (Rev 22:18,19)

    ~~~
    Definition of Mormo on Wikipedia:

    In Greek mythology, Mormo was a goddess who bit bad children, said to have been a consort of the goddess Hecate.

    The name was also used to signify a female vampire-like creature in stories told to Greek children by their nurses to keep them from misbehaving.

    According to Anton LaVey, in The Satanic Bible, Mormo is the, “King of the Ghouls, consort of Hecate.”

  232. Amanda said

    “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; (Rev.)”

    You are aware that Deut. 4:2 says virtually the same thing, right? If you held this to the same standard that you are promoting, God could not have given us the New Testament, much less, the Book of Mormon. You are also aware that the book of Revelation was written before at least one of John’s epistles and other books of the Bible, and the Bible as an entity didn’t exist when this was written? It wasn’t written chronologically, and those curses applied only to that book.

    Each prophet would be able to say the same thing: no one should add to or take away from the words of God–except God!

    This is why no Mormon accepts any words as binding from God unless they are from a prophet who is speaking as a prophet at General Conference or addressing us in The Ensign. Also, this is why most of these sensational topics, designed to promote ill will and over-reaction and prejudice are a waste of precious time that could be used for solidly accepted truths. If you want to know the teachings of the church, go to the scriptures or to the prophet when he has said, “Thus saith the Lord.”

    You don’t see many women covering up their hair in church today, do you? Or refraining from ever speaking or praying in church? Yet Paul had words to say about that which were just cultural and appropriate for his day and time. If you claim “sola scriptura,” do you insist that your women do this in church today? (That’s neither here nor there–just a question from me.

    God’s ways are not man’s ways, and until He reveals how the conception of His Son took place, we do not presume to preach about it in or out of church–other than the fact of God’s literal Fatherhood, and no PROOHET of God has filled in any details that the scriptures do not imply.

    “your statement suggesting that BOM doesn’t contradict the Bible JUST SIMPLY DOES NOT SQUARE with the TRUTH.”

    I would be interested in your basis for this claim.

    Yes, Brad would be fun to talk with on the air, and I have already said I would appear if the “playing field” were leveled a bit first by having a “get acquainted with the Mormons hour.

    Meanwhile, I have to say that I still rejoice in all things Christian. I rejoiced in Kirk and Ron’s encounter with the atheists, their valiancy and the truths they expounded on Nightline ABC. There is nothing that was said on the Christian side with which “Mormons” couldn’t agree.
    I even identified with Kirk’s conversion story (except I wasn’t an atheist before my conversion). There were a couple of times that latter-day revelation could have strengthened the Christian side–like the question about God creating evil. Kirk ended up touching on the inspired answer, and it had to do with the importance of agency. And in our present world: no one knows how God the Father came to be at this time. It’s not relevant to our salvation. They were right: He is the Great “I Am.”

    You have much to live for, and so do we.

    The Mormo :)
    The Mormo :)

  233. Jesus is God said

    I just found this letter on the web and thought it appropriate the share..

    A letter to the Mormon President requesting a name to be removed
    DANIEL EVANS
    dano@open.org (Please feel free to write)

    Nov. 15, 1993

    Ezra Taft Benson, President
    The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

    Dear President Benson:

    This letter is to inform you that I wish to be removed permanently from membership in, and the rolls of, the Mormon Church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). I request that this be done immediately. This is not an action that I take lightly, but it is something I do gladly, as I have found great joy, peace and freedom in my Lord Jesus Christ. I wish the members of the Mormon church well, and will always think of them as fine, upstanding, and loving people. I was an earnest and faithful Mormon for many years. I got married in the Temple, believed in the Church wholeheartedly, and sacrificed for it. The following are a few of my reasons for leaving the Mormon Church. I know they will not be easy for you to read, but please try to do so with an open mind.

    I am concerned about discrepancies between what the Church teaches, and the teachings of the Bible. The Mormon church teaches that there are many Gods. The Bible teaches that there is one only. Joseph Smith taught “that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father,” and that “you may suppose that He had a Father also.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith) Orson Pratt said, “If we should take a million worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds.” (Journal of Discourses, vol.2, page 345) The Bible teaches throughout it’s pages of there being only one God. Even the Book of Mormon teaches monotheism:

    “And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea there is a true and living God. Now, Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.” Alma 11:26-30

    “…I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.” 3 Nephi 9:18

    “so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD and there is no other.” Isaiah 45:6

    ” …I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.” Isaiah 46:9

    “…Is there any God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Isaiah 44:8

    “Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein…” Nehemiah 9:6

    The God who made the universe says he is LORD alone. I believe he leaves no room for doubt. If God had a father wouldn’t he know of him? If there really were other Gods why is there no mention of them in the Book of Mormon or the Bible? The message God sends time and time again is that he is the only God.

    The Mormon Church teaches heretically that man can become a God, and that God was once a man. Joseph Smith taught, “First God himself who sits enthroned in yonder heavens, is a man like unto one of yourselves, that is the great secret…. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity…. God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did,… You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves;…No man can learn you more than what I have told you.” This teaching is one of the root evils of Mormonism. Think about it- isn’t this very idea, that man can work his way up to being a God, a major tenant of humanism and new age belief? Think about it again- where is the first place in the Bible that one finds the idea of a man becoming like God? It was whispered by the serpent to Eve; saying eat of the apple and “…ye shall be as gods…”(Genesis 3:5) This was not whispered as a good thing, but as an enticement by the father of lies himself! The Bible does not teach about a changing God who once was a man, once died, and once sinned. It does not teach that a man can become a God. It teaches exactly the opposite. Again the Book of Mormon is in agreement:

    “For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.” Moroni 8:18

    “For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting,..” Moroni 7:22

    “Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them. For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?” Mormon 9:8,9

    “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” Hebrews 13:8

    “(God has)…no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” James 1:17

    ” …I am God, and not man…” Hosea 11:9

    “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 44:6

    “God is not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind…” Numbers 23:19

    “O LORD are you not from everlasting?…” Habakkuk 1:12

    “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” Psalms 90:2

    “I the LORD do not change…” Malachi 3:6

    “Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD…before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” Isaiah 43:10

    This is clearly the first and last God. We have not “imagined” that God was God from all eternity, the Bible says so definitively. The Bible leaves no room for other “Gods” to be formed. It emphatically states throughout its pages that God has always existed as God and has never changed. How could the Bible have made it more clear? God is God alone, and there never were, nor will there ever be any others. Also see Mosiah 3:5, Alma 11:39, Psalms 41:13, 93:2, 103:17, Proverbs 8:23, Revelation 1:8. It is important to note that when you study one of these passages in Hebrew, the case is made even more unambiguous. In Isaiah 43:10 for example, the word used for God is El meaning ” mighty one”. Once this is understood, it is obvious that the scripture is not talking about idols per Se, but about Gods. Thus read the scripture would say: “… Before me there were no ‘mighty ones’ formed, neither shall there be after me.”

    The Mormon church does not understand grace, faith or salvation, and in fact teaches doctrine turned 180 degrees from the Biblical truth. The Mormon church teaches that ” There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come…(Sermon by Brigham Young given Sept. 21, 1856, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp.53-54) It teaches a works oriented salvation that “puts the cart before the horse” in its approach. It denies the power of Christ and exalts the pride of man. I learned as a Mormon to try to “make myself perfect”. I learned that I needed to follow a laundry list of do’s and don’ts. I believed that I needed to follow a highly organized system of men placed between me and my maker to obtain God’s forgiveness or work within his authority. I learned that these men had control in my life, and that when one of them in authority spoke I was to take it as having come from the mouth of the LORD. When my ears were open enough for me to really understand the New Testament I understood that you had lied to me. Men are sinners- born into it- and cannot make themselves perfect. The Bible teaches that men are accepted by Christ in their sins, that he loves them, and takes them how they are. It teaches that this is a result of faith in him. It says that though their nature still remains sinful, Christ changes them from the inside as a result of faith, but not as a result of their works. The Bible teaches that Christ’s infinite atonement covers all sin of all men who believe in him. It teaches that the Old Testament order of having to have an intermediary between man and God is done away with, and that Christ is the only way to God. All through the New Testament the pattern of faith preceding an unwarranted action is set. Jesus never says anything like, “you’ve done very well in your keeping of the word of wisdom – therefore I’ll heal you.” But he frequently says things like, “Take heart, daughter…your faith has healed you.” (Matthew 9:22) When a woman who “was a sinner” came to see Jesus, and washed his feet with her tears, he did not say, “That’s a good start, now go and undo all the sins you’ve committed, clean up your life, clean up your thoughts, do some worthy work and when you are finished come back to me and I’ll appoint some people to see about forgiving you.” No, he very simply said, “Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.” You see, she was already forgiven. Nothing she could do could earn it, and she didn’t have to; Jesus gave it to her freely because of her faith. Can’t you see how simple and beautiful this is? Jesus has done this for me also and I weep when I think of it because I am so very grateful. I plead with you to let him take you just as you are too. Please see Matthew 8:10-13, 9:2, 9:29 and 15:28.

    The Bible teaches plainly that we are saved by grace through faith. It teaches that no one will be saved by their good works. Truly, faith that produces no good works is a dead faith, but when there is a real faith it produces its work as a result of Christ and the changes he makes in the believer. The Bible is definitive in its argument for faith as being the ingredient for salvation:

    “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:20-24

    “THEREFORE BEING justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 5:1

    “What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works…” Romans 9:30- 32

    “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Galatians 2:21

    “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9

    It fits well within Mormonism’s humanistic model that they have put the emphasis on becoming perfect. After all, they have put the emphasis on becoming a God. When we seek goodness through our works we try to say to Christ, “I know you couldn’t pay the whole debt – here let me pay it too.” We deny his power to accept us as what we are. We say, “hands off- I can change myself into what you ( I ) want.” But the fact is that HE makes the changes in us through faith. The Bible teaches the simple truth on this matter: When we believe in Christ he sets us free. When God looks upon us in judgment he sees only an imperfect man, but one saved by faith in Jesus Christ. Please see Acts 15:8-11, 26:18, Romans 1:5, 4:1-10, 4:14-16, 5:7-9, 10:4, 10:9, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Galatians 2:15-16, 3:22-25, Philippians 3:7-9, Titus 2:11-12

    The Book of Mormon is a largely plagiarized document with no historical, anthropological, ar archaeological basis in reality. The Mormon church claims that the Nephites had the Old Testament books which were written prior to the time they left Jerusalem (around 600 B.C.). Therefore it comes as no surprise that the Book of Mormon contains many quotations taken right from the Old Testament (over 18 chapters of Isaiah alone). What is surprising is that many of these passages were quoted word for word from the King James version of the Bible. What is more surprising still is that the Book of Mormon authors were able to quote from books written after 600 B.C. Let’s think about this: How could Joseph Smith have translated exact word for word quotes from “reformed Egyptian” into King James style English? Why would these match word for word with the King James translation of the Bible which itself had been translated from Hebrew and Greek? The King James translators who unfortunately lacked the “Urim and Thummim” did very well to produce the exact translation Joseph Smith did! The Book of Mormon contains many examples of stories and ideas lifted from the Bible (see Alma 19 and John 11). The Book of Mormon proves itself a forgery when it quotes from King James version New Testament verses word for word:

    “…to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life…” 2 Nephi 9:39

    “… to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life…” Romans 8:6

    “…O wretched man that I am…” 2 Nephi 4:17

    “O wretched man that I am…” Romans 7:24

    “…steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works…” Mosiah 5:15

    “…steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work…” 1 Corinthians 15:58

    “…seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.” Moroni 7:45

    “…seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.” 1 Corinthians 13:5-7

    There are many more examples of plagiarism in the Book of Mormon. One study found over four hundred. Remember, these are New Testament scriptures that the Nephites did not have. How could they have gotten into the Book of Mormon word for word? Not only does the Book of Mormon use the exact same wording (even unusual wording like “stinketh” found in Alma 19:5 and John 11:39) as the New Testament, but it frequently uses it in exactly the same order! Mark Twain, in his book Roughing It remarked that the Book of Mormon “seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament.” I think he hit the nail right on the head. The Book of Mormon condemns itself.

    The Book of Mormon purports to be the record of ancient Jews who came to the new world. This being the case, where in its text is there evidence of Jewish religion and tradition such as Passover, Circumcision, any of the Jewish festivals, etc.? These things were very important to the people of that time and are mentioned frequently in the Bible. Why not in the Book of Mormon? Also, why would these Israelites have written their record in Egyptian? Lehi had lived all his life in the city of Jerusalem, where they only spoke the Hebrew language. The Jews hated the Egyptians, and even if he could have written in their language (highly unlikely) he certainly wouldn’t have; The Jews were known to have an unusual love for their mother tongue. Also, is there any biological evidence connecting the American Indians with the Jews? There is none. In fact the genetic evidence suggests quite the opposite.

    When a city, a sight of battle, person’s name, or even a type of coin is written about in the Bible, there is archaeological evidence to support it. I have seen coins mentioned in the Bible with my own eyes, right here in Salem, Oregon. When the Bible talks of the city of Jericho – there is evidence to support that it existed; namely Jericho itself! The Bible states that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and an inscription has been found with the name of Pontius Pilate in theater excavations at Caesarea. There are mountains of physical evidence to support biblical archaeology. Why is this not the case with the Book of Mormon? The Book of Mormon talks about names and places. It contains the story of entire civilizations, and their cities, their battles, their leaders names, their religion, even the value and names of some of their coins. In all this mass of civilization, where is even one single piece of anthropological evidence to support the claims of the Book of Mormon? There are no coins. There are no inscriptions of leaders names. There is no evidence of the huge battles mentioned in its text. There isn’t even evidence of the cities mentioned in The Book of Mormon! Where are Zarahemla and Bountiful? There is plenty of anthropological evidence of the civilizations that really were present during Book of Mormon times. Unfortunately, none of this evidence even suggests a Christian civilization present in America. Many Mormon anthropologists have dedicated their lives to finding Book of Mormon archaeology, and the Mormon church has financed many expeditions and much research to prove its case. Still, there remains not one piece of evidence in support of the Book of Mormon. Why not? Because it simply is not there.

    The Mormon Church’s history, doctrine, and even scriptures have been changed many times to suit the present needs of its leadership. There have been many deliberate changes in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, History of the Church, etc. The Church has made a deliberate effort to distort its own history, and keep its members in the dark. As a Mormon I learned about Joseph Smith’s martyrdom. I learned that he went to his death “like a lamb to the slaughter.” I was taught that he went humbly and without resistance just as Jesus did. Can you imagine what a shock it was to me to learn that he had in fact died in a gunfight, doing his level best to kill his attackers? The following accounts from the History of the Church are given of Joseph Smith’s death:

    Immediately there was a little rustling at the outer door of the jail, and a cry of surrender, and also a discharge of three or four firearms followed instantly…Joseph sprang to his coat for his six-shooter, Hyrum for his single barrel….

    When Hyrum fell, Joseph exclaimed, “Oh dear, brother Hyrum!” and opening the door a few inches he discharged his six shooter in the stairway (as stated before) , two or three barrels of which missed fire. (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 617- 18)

    John Taylor, who was to become the third president of the Church, added his testimony concerning Joseph Smith’s death:

    He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Whellock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died. (History of the Church, vol. 7, pp.102-3)

    This was not the Joseph Smith you had taught me about. He did not go like Jesus Christ, “who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not…” (1 Peter 2:23) No, Joseph Smith went out shooting. Why don’t you teach the truth about this?

    I learned as a Mormon that while the Bible was not reliable because it had been changed, (with later study I learned it was indeed reliable) the Book of Mormon was reliable and, “the most correct of any book on earth.” Why then has it been changed over three thousand times? Many of these changes are grammatical, or spelling errors, but this book was supposed to have been translated directly by the power of God. I remember the missionaries asking me how a boy could have written such a book without mistakes, without to help of God. Well, the first editions of the Book of Mormon are chock full of mistakes! All one has to do to prove it to themselves is compare. My wife Stacey, was surprised when she looked up 2 Nephi 30:6 in a copy of The Book of Mormon that her grandmother had given her, and then in a newer copy of mine, and found that it had been changed. There is no footnote to explain why, no asterisk, or anything else. At the time of this change the church had been embarrassed by their teaching that the Indians who received the Gospel would turn white! Stacey’s edition reads, “…and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people.” My edition reads, “…save they shall be a pure and delightsome people.” This is just a recent change. There are other important doctrinal changes in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. For more information see The Changing World of Mormonism by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Moody Press, Chicago.

    Where are those good old doctrines of the early Mormon Church like Blood atonement, and the Adam-God doctrine? How come they aren’t taught with the zeal that the “prophets” had for them? As a Mormon I knew nothing about things like Blood atonement. You taught me that a prophet would never lead his people astray. That God would prohibit it. Well, lets look at what the “Prophet” Brigham Young taught:

    There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins… (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp.53-54; also published in the Desseret News, Oct. 1, 1856, p.235 )

    J.M. Grant, a member of the first presidency under Brigham Young, followed up on this idea:

    …there are men and women that I would advise to go to the President immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their case; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp.49-50)

    Brigham young proposed this situation in which Blood atonement might occur. As you read it think to yourself if it in any way relates to the Savior of love and compassion written about in the Bible. The “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” Savior. The Savior who is powerful enough to save all men from all sin, and paid the ultimate price to do so for you. (1 John 1:7-9)

    Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands…

    There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it… (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p.247)

    Is this true? If we are to atone for our own sins, then Jesus died for nothing! What is our blood worth to God? What good does it do for our salvation? If it is true, then why isn’t the Mormon church teaching and practicing “God’s doctrine” of blood atonement today? No, the Bible totally repudiates this heretical teaching of blood atonement, and Brigham Young led his people astray. One need only read it to find out.

    Brigham Young also taught that, “When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Arch-angel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken – HE is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 50-51)

    Brigham Young reaffirmed this doctrine and taught it many times. It is even found in the journals of the Mormons of that time. If this “Prophet” didn’t lead people astray, then why does the church teach that this is a false doctrine today?

    There are those who believe, or say they believe, that Adam is our father and our God,… The devil keeps this heresy alive… It is contrary to the plan of salvation…and anyone who has received the temple endowment and who yet believes the Adam-God theory does not deserve to be saved.” (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, talk given at the BYU Marriot Center on June 1, 1980)

    Okay, who’s lying? The “Prophets” and “Apostles” of Brigham Young’s time, or the “Prophets” and “Apostles” of today?

    I was married to Stacey in the Seattle, Washington temple on May 3, 1984. I attended that temple with the belief that I would be instructed in sacred and ancient ceremonies, right from the Lord himself. As was expected of me, I obediently promised to slit my throat etc., rather than reveal the secrets of the temple. I was very surprised to learn in 1989 from a Mormon who wanted me to “come back to the temple, because I would like it better now” that the Lord had changed his mind yet again, and redone his sacred temple ceremony. Even as a Mormon who did not yet understand that the temple ceremony is really a Masonic ceremony copied word for word, I knew that something was wrong! Why would God just suddenly change his mind about his own “sacred ceremony”, eliminating the “penalties” and other sacred portions? Maybe God is rather a “politically correct” God. When confronted with opposition on the issue of polygamy, he simply changes his stance on it. When confronted with Civil Rights he ignores his “prophet” who said, “If there was one drop of Negro blood” a black man could never hold the Priesthood, and caves in under the pressure. When people like me are made uncomfortable with the temples’ bloody oaths, God just rewrites the program. How convenient for the leadership of the Mormon Church to have such a changeable, malleable, saleable God. The God of the Bible is a much different God. He doesn’t change his mind. He doesn’t change. I hope you get to know him. (John 17:3)

    In closing I wish to tell you my greatest reason for leaving the Mormon Church. It is in finding Jesus Christ. He also found me. He pulled me toward him and made me ready to listen. I tell you, reader of this letter, that he will do the same for you. I pray this for you. It will be my great joy to bring his message to all the people (including Mormons) I can. The Gospel is simply that Christ lived, was crucified for each and every one of every man’s sins, and was resurrected on the third day. (1 Corinthians 15:1-8, Galatians 1:8-9) Those who take away from this Gospel; who mock Christ’s suffering on the cross by saying that it was not sufficient for all men and all sin; and those who would add to this Gospel legalism, secret (not sacred) ceremonies and signs as condition for salvation are terribly wrong. They are making a literally hellish mistake. Jesus is my hope and my joy. I love him with all my heart, and am glad to let him make of my life what he wants. This is the truth, and I leave it with you in His name.

    Thank you,

    Dan Evans dano@open.org

  234. Brad said

    Sums the last 233 comments up pretty well, I think.

    If Amanda responds, I’ll be curious to see her responses to the letter. I’m sure it will be met with the same criticism that other “anti-Mormon” comments have been met with.

    What would explain this “Dan” person’s leaving the Mormon faith? Is he misled? Was he never considered Mormon to begin with? Just curious how the Mormon church views it, and how they consider a person like this.

  235. Anonymous said

    The Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The Book of Mormon says in 2 Nephi 2:23: for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

    Did Jesus need us to help Him when he performed the work of salvation on the cross?

    Anytime that we try to add to what Jesus did, we subtract from it.
    Jesus did it all, all to Him I owe……

    Dear Mormon Friends…after you have done all that you can do, after you have done everything that you can do….Guess what ?….EVERYthing still has to be done, but fortunately, Jesus already DID everything. It is NOT what you can do for God…for you can do nothing that is more than filthy rags…..It is what God has done for you.

    This is not a matter of clever semantics. This is a fundamental understanding of the fact that Jesus, the son of God did everything necessary and everything possible for our salvation.

    We are to obey him and we are to do good works,,,esy!! but BECAUSE we belive on Him and accept His atoning sacrifice for us.

    What we do for Him is worthless rubish. Does God really need your help or my help?

    Hence, your statement suggesting that BOM doesn’t contradict the Bible JUST SIMPLY DOES NOT SQUARE with the TRUTH

  236. Anonymous said

    thank you for changing your mind amanda.its your friend brett.id love to go on the show with you brad and your friend.however are deffrences are i refuse to argue and fight over the holy word of God.if its a peacefull debate it would be real enjoyable.i can be contacted at brettmsnr@yahoo.com.in the mean time i continue to pray for all of you.keep defendending your faith,and keep your eyes on the cross.amanda feel free to contact me.with the love of christ thats in me brett.

  237. Blue said

    I am a Mormon and I find it silly for others to tell me what I believe. My beliefs are my own – and I would not pretend to tell you what all “Christians” believe.

    It feels like you just want to slander our religion – and if that is what it takes to make you feel good, then have fun. It certainly does not feel very “Christian” to me.

    I would like to thank Amanda for sharing her own testimony so eloquently. She seems like a remarkable disciple of Christ to me. Unfornately, few Mormons are as charitable, patient and wise as she has demonstrated. I give her a big DITTO! ;-)

    And finally – to answer the original question. While I am often aware of a candiates religion, I am not especially concerned about it’s teachings. I am primarily concerned about their character. Do they have integrity? Are their morals and values consistent with mine? There are all sorts of people that are members of the Mormon church (some I would never vote for). So I think it is simplistic to judge them by the box they check on their candidate application.

    As for Mitt Romney, I live on the West Coast, so I have not previously paid a lot of attention to him. But now that he is running for a national office, I have been giving him serious consideration and I like everything I have learned about him. He seems like an exceptional candidate that would truly represent Christian values in the White House.

    Likewise, I am sure there are some who would never vote for a Jew or a Black or a Woman, and I respect their right to cast their own vote.

    It is a little late in this thread to expect any fresh ideas – but I am curious what exactly people are afraid a “Mormon” President might do that was so offensive? If Romney was going to do something “evil” – he certainly missed his best chance as Gov of MA.

    I can easily understand why liberal Democrats will not vote for Romney (even Mormon Democrats) – but it strikes me as ignorant that a conservative Republican Christian would find a “Mormon” politician threatening…. (Mormon missionaries are a completely different story ;-)

  238. Anonymous said

    look blue we dont want to slander your religion.however us bible believing christians,hold the word of God dear to us,and mormons and msny other false religions twist the word to fit your own desires.it truely is importent to stay in with one accord with what the word says and you dont do that

  239. Brad said

    “I am a Mormon and I find it silly for others to tell me what I believe. My beliefs are my own – and I would not pretend to tell you what all “Christians” believe.” (Blue)

    Blue, what has been talked about on this thread are the general beliefs of the Mormon church. They shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone – anyone can go to the LDS website and see these beliefs for themselves, so they shouldn’t be a secret (at least the ones that the LDS church doesn’t mind being public. The temple ceremonies, undergarments, etc… – well, that’s a different story). Nobody’s saying your beliefs are not your own, the Christians on here (myself included) are just saying that according to the Bible, your beliefs are not Biblically based, that’s all. Don’t just take our word for it – look at the mountains of evidence that have been provided in the 238 comments thus far. The Mormon beliefs simply do not mesh with the Bible, and there is no credible evidence that should lead anyone to place any creedence on what Joseph Smith or the Mormon church has said.

    “It feels like you just want to slander our religion – and if that is what it takes to make you feel good, then have fun. It certainly does not feel very “Christian” to me.” (Blue)

    I don’t want to slander your religion, I want to let you know that it is a false gospel, that belief in it has not brought you salvation, that the Jesus you proclaim belief in is NOT the Jesus preached in the Bible. Again, read the evidences provided in this thread, and feel free to ask questions. You need to rely on more than just your “feelings” from the “Holy Ghost” that Mormonism is correct, and follow the Bible’s instructions, to “study the Scriptures” to see if what is being said is true. And by Scriptures, the Bible is referring SOLELY to the Bible, NOT the BOM.

    Christians, including myself, want to inform Mormons that it is not a saving faith in Jesus Christ that they have, and that they have been grossly misled by their church.

    We are praying for you. Examine the evidence for yourself.

  240. Anonymous said

    It is a little late in this thread to expect any fresh ideas – but I am curious what exactly people are afraid a “Mormon” President might do that was so offensive? If Romney was going to do something “evil” – he certainly missed his best chance as Gov of MA.

  241. Anonymous said

    from gov to presedent,is a huge difference.its not even the possible of evil.he has been tought the way to be desseving.i look at it like this he will be desietfull when it comes to God you think he will be honest with us.nope he will chang his views as needed to to fit him.just as the mormons change thair doctrine as it sutes them.look he already started.he was pro-choice now he is pro-life.deciet?that is what i think.plus voting 4 a mormon will hurt the gospel.

  242. JesusisGod said

    As a follower of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I am not “fearful” of a Mormon President. I just prefer not to have a Mormon as a President..Neither do I want anyone that is a Muslim… or Atheist… or Satanist.. or Freemason. I prefer a leader of our country to be a disciple of Jesus Christ – as the One True God. However, I am hardpressed to find any true disciple of Jesus in our line of Presidents.

    In light of this, the question is, who is BEST qualified of those running for office? Who is the most knowledgeable of the issues and the most effective to lead??

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  244. warrior said

    Brad and Amanda – Go on the air!!!

  245. “Dear Mormon Friends…after you have done all that you can do, after you have done everything that you can do….Guess what ?….EVERYthing still has to be done, but fortunately, Jesus already DID everything. It is NOT what you can do for God…for you can do nothing that is more than filthy rags…..It is what God has done for you.” (Anonymous)

    Guess what, Anonymous? Mormons totally agree with you on this point. And after Jesus did everything, He said, “Come, follow me.” If we don’t follow Jesus, we will be inadvertently following Satan. “Follow” is an action word, and we would be like the “wise virgins” to obey His admonition.

    Amanda

    Thanks for bringing attention to this point.

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